Advertise before you even have equipment???

[Dingo]

I am getting ready to start a lawn service and I am a little worried about getting customers. Is there anyway that I could start getting customers before I have even bought my equipment? I could begin work just as soon as I buy my equipment and I have all the money for it. Its just that I am worried about getting a customer list. I don't want to spend 8,000 on equipment just sitting there while im waiting for the phone to ring. How should I approach customers?<br> thanks <br> Dingo

[Eric ELM]

Do you have any experiance? If you do, tell them what experiance you have and you are getting new equipment, but you want to see how many customers you will get before you decide on how big of equipment you will buy. If you have any pictures of what you have done, show them to your future customers. Pictures speak LOUDER than words and I have found them to be a good tool for selling jobs. If you have seen my site, you probably figured out I am a picture nut, but it has worked for me. :)<p>----------<br>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.townserver.com/elm/&quot;&gt;Eric@ELM&lt;/a&gt;<br>

[mountain man]

DO NOT GO OUT AND BUY $8,000 WORTH OF EQUIPMENT WITH NO CUSTOMERS!<p>One of the worst things for a new company is to go out and spend a bunch of cash on machines, office, etc. If you decide that you want to do basic maintenance you can go get a used truck,used walk behind (see other discussions), a trimmer,strick edger and blower and go at it. <p>Even if you have plenty of capital don't buy a $8000 machine. A sub $3000 walk behind will be more than enough for you to get started with. I actually started with nothing more than a $499 Toro 21 inch mower with bagger, a trimmer/edger, blower and small truck payment. Had I hated the work, I would have been out less than $1000 (plus the truck payment). After I had a couple of accounts I was easily able to justify buying my 48 inch walk behind.<p>Remember that when you start out a ton of additional expenses will come up that you need capital for; general liability ins, incorporating costs, commercial vehicle ins, licenses, etc.<p>Many of the guys in this forum have been in business for some time that is why you see the discussions on the $8000 mowers. We should do $350,000 in revs this year but it will probably be another year before i can justify a $8000 mower based on our business plan.<p>One thing that is worth the money up front in my opinion is to set up a business phone line. It gives you a permant number to advertise immediately. I regret the fact that we started with a Mobile business line and then had to switch over to a business LAN line. I still have to keep the mobile line to forward calls to my LAN line. It would have been even worse had I started by using my home phone number.<p>Good luck and ask lots of questions. I was in your shoes not too long ago. <p>

[lbmd1]

Mountain Man gave you perfect advice. Start out with a used or new belt drive, some ramps and a pickup. Place an ad in the businessservice directory and go from there. Wait a year or two til you decide what direction your business is going in before spending any money on largermore equipment.

[Dingo]

Hey guys thanks for the responses! I have experience in lawn care. I worked for a company for about 1/2 a year. Actually I'll change that to I have SOME experience. Its something that I really enjoyed doing. The owner said I was one of the best workers he ever had and he wasn't just saying that cause that's not him. (not trying to brag) I take great pride in my work and work hard. So do you guys think it would be ok to put out flyers and then explain to the customer about my situation? Or will they think that I am unprofessional. I'm also worried that some people will not take me seriously because im a teenager. <br> thanks for y'alls help<br> Dingo

[Lazer]

I started young, too. I had over $20,000 worth of equipment when I was 17. (If only I would've bought Microsoft stock, instead!) If your as hot as you imply, go for it.<p>Buy the equipment (buy it right) and do it. Don't explain anything to anybody other that what you'll do for them and your fees for that. Customers want to hire somebody with something. You're not going to get many customers without equipment.<p>Use the &quot;Field of Dreams&quot; principle.<br>

[Barkleymut]

As far as whether you have to have equipment before you begin mowing....Heck no. Do you demand to see the Dentists tools before he operates on you? No, you get a feeling when you talk to him or get a referral. All you care is that the job is done right and for a fair price. You can drive around without a mower and get all the customers you want, but when it comes time to mow you had better have that mower ready to go. I wish I would have started in February getting customers but that wasn't an option when I started. Assuming you live in a temperate climate you can get a few customers before you start and once you do start you can spend every minute that your not working putting out flyers. etc. You must decide what equipment to buy for your company, don't let any of these jokers decide that for you. If I had it to do over again I would have bought a bigger and more expensive NEW truck (yes I know that kills some of you). I would have started out with a 6x16 trailer and a new 48&quot; hydro walk behind. But anyways I started with a 5x10 trailer and one year later it is outgrown. Also image IS important, a new truck is going to look good for 10 years and with regular maintenance and a little luck you will be running it for over 150K miles. But if you buy a truck with 100K miles already on it you may be buying a timebomb. I sure don't have time to go fixing a truck during my busy seasons, so I'll continue to buy NEW trucks and NEW equipment. Because your customer doesn't give a damn that your exhaust rusted out and is being replaced.

[Kent Lawns]

I agree with Barkley,<br>Heck no you don't need mowing equipment to start mowing. Spend 23,000 on a new truck and ask the customer if you can use HIS mower. You don't need one. Most customers don't even care if you use equipment or not.<br>

[yardsmith]

many good points here- I do disagree however on asking the customer to use their mower, esp. if you're 18 or older. A teenage kid may get away with that, but that's it. Also, you won't have very many customers willing to do that. I'd get laughed off the property if I tried that in my town.<br>When I call a plumber to come fix my broken pipes or whatever, I'd throw him out the door if he showed up & asked &quot;can i use your tools? I'm a plumber, but I don't have any plumbing tools.&quot;<br>That's what having a service is all about-mechanics, electricians, carpenters, bricklayers, etc. have 'tools of the trade'. That's the name of the game. they show up with their tools in hand ready to do the job.<br>If you're a teenager wanting only a handful of lawns for the summer only, then asking to use someone else's stuff may get you by. But what if you break their mower? A whole new set of problems. Get your own stuff.<br>I had a customer try to get me to use her mower once. My push mower was so much faster & I was used to it, etc. it took 35% less time with my mower. I tell them if they ever want me to use their stuff I charge 50% more.<br>My stuff is better, faster, & does a better job than the old Sears junk tractor. That's why I bought it. Sorry if I offended Kent lawns, but I think most customers would feel the same way. I wouldn't want somebody tearing up my mower; 'next thing he'd probably ask to use it on other people's lawns'. Get your own tools- you'll be happier & much more productive.<br>Smitty ô¿ô

[cjcland]

i think he was kidding yardsmith, <br>

[lickity]

Got me wondering too. I've been following this fourm for a while now and finding it invaluble to us &quot;wanna-bes&quot;. Like Dingo, I'm considering getting into the biz but I'm looking at purchasing a new grasshopper for around 14k. plus new other equipment. I need everything but the truck (which is new but still making payments). Accordding to my business plan so far I need aprox. 17-18k. I have no experience but have the luxury of time to try to make this work.(no money mind you, just time). Am I nuts?<p>(p.s) My thinking is I need the grasshopper or a tractor for winter work. I live in the Great Lakes region. Thanks to all you guys.

[bdemir]

surely he wasnt serious about getting a 24k truck and then using thier mower to cut their grass.

[yardsmith]

hey lickity-<br>wow- 14k for a grasshopper! Do you have any steiner dealers nearby? For 14k you could get a nearly new 4wd steiner with a slew of attatchments for landscaping, snow removal, etc. I must be poor compared to the fig.'s alot of guys are throwing around. I bought a GOOD used steiner 220 for $3000 last spring, & i love it. 11 mph top spd. for transport, hi - lo range for hillside gripping, excellent striping, & comfortable ride, too.<br>Best of all, I knew where it came from & how it was treated.<br>To all the newcomers; buy the best you can afford, but don't think you have to buy new to start out with. I've seen alot of guys get burned by later not having enuf business to pay it off, or they got tired of mowing & took a loss when they sold it. If you really want new, look & ask around for demo units. They usually have less than 50 hrs. & are $1000 to 1500 off the list price. There are lots of alternatives if you think creatively.<p>----------<br>Smitty ô¿ô<br>

[lickity]

Got me wondering too. I've been following this fourm for a while now and finding it invaluble to us &quot;wanna-bes&quot;. Like Dingo, I'm considering getting into the biz but I'm looking at purchasing a new grasshopper for around 14k. plus new other equipment. I need everything but the truck (which is new but still making payments). Accordding to my business plan so far I need aprox. 17-18k. I have no experience but have the luxury of time to try to make this work.(no money mind you, just time). Am I nuts?<p>(p.s) My thinking is I need the grasshopper or a tractor for winter work. I live in the Great Lakes region. Thanks to all you guys.

[Keith]

Kent Lawns,I know a couple of guys who could probably pull off the &quot;using the homeowners mower&quot;. :)<p>Dingo, if you must get customers before equipment.. Don't tell them you don't have the equipment! I don't think too many would be willing to give up there existing service to a guy with no mower. Buy a used walkbehind or something for now, you can always use it for a backup later.<p>As for the $14,000 Grasshopper...is that the Gold Plated Limited Edition? I paid $7500 for my Grasshopper a few years back and $7000 for my ZTMax last year. You could buy two good ZTR's for $14,000 or better yet a good ZTR rider, a walkbehind, a bpblower, a couple of trimmers, an edger, some hedge trimmers, a trailer and still have money left for a couple decent meals at the Outback.

[lickity]

grasshopper 725 base price was $10500 and with quick d tatch 52&quot; conv. deck, collctor, 48&quot; snow thrower, cab, chains it came up to $14760. Dealer said he'd give it to me for $13,800. I called him the other day cuz I forgot to tell him I wanted the lift-up deck and he said it would cost another $300.<br>I also looked at a &quot;99&quot; walker 25hp kohler set up for snow with 36 hrs on it and he wanted $1300. for that. Closest walker dealer is over 3 hrs from me though. I've inquired around for used equipment but everyone says it's hard to come by. I know I could get a Kubota 4wd compact tractor for around same price, but thats really larger then what I want. Any suggestions?

[Keith]

I guess with all you are getting it'll cost that much. So they want $10,500 for the tractor and deck?<br>

[Finecut]

Dingo,<p>Start looking around for a 1987 gear drive (52&quot;deck) Toro in a snow bank behind your local dealers place of business (within 150 miles of home) offer him 400 dollars and take it home scrape it off buy 2 cans of red paint for $3.29 (K-Mart) if you have more time than money wait for the blue light special! Order new decals from your dealer for $19.95 (just kind of throwing him a bone). Now for $426.51 (the math mistake was done on purpose this system doesn't always add-up) you have a mower. New belts and new tires (which a real man puts on by hand) and your set for part B of the plan.<p>If company A. has a ZTR and charges 8.21 per hour and you have your (New) Toro--------<p>Well Dingo you know the the drill - you could have a EMPIRE built by your $451.26 mower which will make you millions of dollars<br>blah blah blah blah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br>I think you get the idea!<p>P.S. Don't go to Lord and Taylor for paint! (They don't carry it)<p>

[mountain man]

Lickity it sounds to me like the Grasshopper dealer has put a big timer sales pitch on you.<p>What you described is two separate businesses. I feel like I run two separate companies - landscape installation and lawn maintenance. Obviously, there are synergies between having the two but first I look at that business independently then I see what I can do to reduce costs and improve the quality between the two.<p>If you must go out and get the Grasshopper don't buy all of the snow attachments now. The snow equipment will only collect dust - and earn you nothing - during mowing season. <p>Be careful spending all of this money with no customers. I am amazed at the amount you are willing to spend on equipment before getting started. Personally, if I had to spend $14,000. I would buy about $5000 in equipment and the rest would go into company infrastructure, training, marketing / advertising, and savings.<p>Good Luck

[lickity]

Dingo, thanks for this discussion and getting me involved. I have already considered mountian mans points but feel I have to go a different route. I'll start a new discussion to try and explin myself and let everyone have a shot at me. Thanks.

[Charles]

I know it is tempting. But if you buy cheap low quality equipment and keep it for 2 years. That will be the most frustrating pain in the you know where 2 years of your life. You will most likely need 2 or 3 of everything. Because most of it will be in the shop half the time. The cheap belts will break in no time. The little deck wheels will wear out in no time. The small engine will strain under high grass etc. Most any kind of business has struggle the first couple of years. Doesn't mean that you have to start of with junk. And too, If I am sitting in the dentist chair and he says &quot;Woa! I haven't seen this before I have to go to the hardware to egt the right tool for this job&quot; I am getting the you know what out of that place:)<br>

[HOMER]

$350,000.00 in revenue this year and you can't buy an $8000.00 mower! I must be doing something way way wrong. As for some of you out there putting down those that purchase new, or newer trucks, try working on your old clunker in front of your customers house because the P O S won't start, not to mention all the down time doing repairs. What is the most important thing about this business? I think you have to make it to the job site in order to get the job done. A truck is a tool and an expense that is not a want, it's a have to! <p>Bottom line is if you buy junk your going to get burnt out quick. Nothing pisses me off more than a smart a_ _ and equipment that constantly lets me down. <p>Homer

[gorrell]

Lickity, I just purchased a new 721D grasshopper w/61&quot; flip up deck for $8000 cash. Shop around before you give $10,500. Thanks, Lynn

[mountain man]

Homer: <br>It's called managing equipment, cash flow, and using the point of diminishing returns.<p>For my customers, probably only a thrid of the time comes from mowing. The rest is spent with clean up, pruning, spraying, fertilization, weed control, etc.<p>A good three man crew can service 18 yards in a 10 hour day with a 48 and 36 inch WB. If I had a ZTR or other faster mower maybe that crew could do 20 -21 yards but if they do more then the quality of the other work would obviously be sacrificed.<p>Using this example, it is more profitable to set up an additional crew with the same equipment and maintain another 18 yards. I then have about $10,000 invested (48s at $2700 and the 36s at $2400) in 4 mowers and I can do 36 yards in a day. There is no way I could do 36 yards with a ZTR ($7500) and a 36 ($2400). <p>Also the ZTR may be quicker to mow a yard but it is not making money any time equipment is on the trailer. It is much easier to coordinate routes and make them closer (which means more profitable) if you have 2 trucks out instead of just one. <p>The concern I see is not what you can afford but buying what the best equipment for the job is. <p>

[Charles]

Is that what they mean by the &quot;New fangled math&quot;?

[ashlandscaping]

Ok first off mountain man your guys only cut 18 lawns in a 10 hour day. I hope they are acre or more and if that is true then a ztr would make your money back. 3 man crew doing full services on average 10000 to 25000 sf lawns do about 30 a day. in 8 to 10 hours Now for dingo go out get the jobs dont tell them you dont have a mower. Only Question I have ever been asked as far as my equipment is do you use those big mowwers. Thats it not do you have a mowwer. Poeple take that you have the means to do their lawn if your giveing them the price. I would get some jobs and see what you need. One word of advice is dont put all your money into equipment and make sure you have some put to the side to fall back on if need and for ever day needs. Gas, oil ect ect. If you only land 20 accounts look for a good used mower. I have bought many used mowwers, trucks, sod cutters and more. Only have had 2 times it came back to huant me. And both of those where bought for me by a freind. (busy couldnt go to auction) Take your time a find what you need. BUT I would spend the money up front on all 2 cycle equipment buy it new. They are within a REASONABLE price. They are what give you that look of being more then a lawn boy. And spend money on fliers and ad in paper get your name out and seen. Some one had said get a business phone line I agree do it up front. It is well worth every dime it costs. Plus if down the line you decide this is not for you you can sell it to some one esle.

[southside]

Dingo, Its good to have an existing customer base before you start,but what would your clients think if you said &quot;sorry I cant do your lawn as I havent got a mower yet&quot; Part<br>and parcel of being in business is being<br>professional,even at the very begining.<br>DONT ask to use clients mowers/equipment.<br>Doing so will destroy the professional image<br>you are working hard to project.(And you'll<br>look like a knob-head) :)<br>Best of luck in your new venture<p>Karl<br>