What is the proper way to install stone borders for beds?

[Lance L]

i have a few people interested in natural stone borders and also with windsor blocks, was wanting to learn the proper way to do this. and what is usually charged, i have been told $7/linear ft for both, from a friend, but wanted to check with the pros, as he helped me bid some work a few years back when i was still pretty new and he was off.

thanks for the info!! if you need more specifics just ask. =)

[Team-Green L&L]

For an edging product, you can get away with compacting the soil without a sub base, but if you are moving into blocks like the Windsor block, I would suggest using retaining wall construction techniques.

As for pricing: What does the block cost you? How much do you want to make an hour? How fast can you stage, prep, and lay the block?

What I mean by that is: Do you own a Dingo? Do you have a truck big enough for delivery?

Equipment means the difference in 30 hours of work compared to 60-70. I don't know what to tell you on that one...

[Lance L]

the block, i have not priced yet because i want to know if we can do it first, i know what i want to make a hour but i dont know how long this takes to install, if i knew the answers to those 3 i would not be asking this question in the first place. seeing that im asking the proper way to do this i do not know what needs to be done to stage, prep and lay the block.

no i dont own a dingo, yes i do have a truck big enough for the jobs we are looking at, bigger one is roughly 200 ft of the rectangular natural stone(i dont know any of the terminology for stone but it looks the same as the stone used for flagstone patios so i guess flagstone blocks?) possibly 2 rows, i have seen them just stacked and not mortered and i have seen them mortered, do you use the same as bricklayers? do i need like a concrete base? how far apart should they be? anythings to absolutely not do????

and where do i find the rretaining wall construction techniques? these are only 2 maybe 3 stone high projects.

a idea on how long this takes would help with pricing, im aware of costs, and how to bid, but im not going to do to hot on bidding the time of something i have never done before.

[zedosix]

So basically you have a truck and everything else is questionable. Maybe you should stick to something you know?

[GSPHUNTER]

I am wanting to start doing hardscapes as well, but I can tell you for sure that my first one is not going to be on a paying clients house. That sounds like a pretty good recipe for ruining your name.

Why not do a small job at your house or tell a family member that if they by materials, you'll install for free?

If you really want some info. on retaining wall installs, check out allanblock.com.

[Lance L]

not really, im fine with doing it, but have heard different methods....

why is it so hard to get any answers from people on this site? the forum is to help people isnt it? seems most are to lazy to actually reply to a question... if im going to mess something up then its going to get messed up, let me worry about that, if its a disaster which i find hard to pull off on a stone border, then i will pay someone to come in and fix it.

stick to something i know? everyone needs to start somewhere, i would think that a border for a bed is the simplest place to start dont you? im just looking for someone to mention the proper techniques to keep from having to go back and redo this, and an idea of how long this type of job will take.

not tryin to be a a$$ but dam*, if you arent posting to help with the questions asked dont post, the job is going to be done, just looking to do it the rite way the first time around.

[landstyles]

With questions you're asking, I'd suggest that you gain some experience working with a pro installer before you attempt this kind of work. Most people out there think what we do is easy until they attempt it themselves.

[Lance L]

dont have time to work with a pro installer, and from the work i have seen around here 90% of them ARE NOT PROS, they are hispanic that just slap them together, tryin to do things rite here and no one wants to help out. lol

[Lance L]

and i never said it was easy, but youve got to start somewhere rite? and i cant run this maint business, and go work with another installer to learn, planning on going to some of the trade shows this year but they are ready to do this soon, not after i go to a show to learn....

zedo nice work btw love the site.

[landstyles]

dont have time to work with a pro installer, and from the work i have seen around here 90% of them ARE NOT PROS, they are hispanic that just slap them together, tryin to do things rite here and no one wants to help out. lol

We all would love to help. Go to any hardscape manufacturer site and you can get the proper techniques. Or even go get ICPI certified, but with out any experience none of that will help you.
Just trying to help you out of a potential nightmare.
The problem with landscape "poser" companies is that they bring down the whole industry. They drive down prices and quality, which hurts the legit quality companies who want to earn a profit. I guess we need to get this industry certified as a legit trade. Weed out the "fly by nighters".
Lance, not trying to discourage you. Just trying to help. If you do decide to go ahead with the jobs I wish you nothing but success.

[Lance L]

doing 1/2mil this year in maint. not a overnight op. not a poser either, the reason i have not done much landscaping is because people can still ask me questions that i dont know the answer to. i am not one to do poor work and neither are my guys, we need to expand our services and this is something that is wanted by 4 or 5 of our customers, its all small scale stuff, if we do it poorly i can pay to have it done by a professional. my prices would only be low because of poor info. and because im not getting any help here my prices could be low or high, or i may end up talkin to joe blow who can talk like he is a hot shot and is in reality a low baller and there you go another player hurting you prices, which is why i am here asking these questions, if its out of my league than i wont do it, but i do not think it is, it may not be as simple of a project that it comes off to the beginer as one, but im not worried about it being easy, im concerned with expanding our services and doing what we are going to do the right way.

[landstyles]

Like I said, check out manufacturers sites (http://www.permaconpro.ca/installation.html) to see the proper installs. Never called you an overnight company. I'm sure your crews do great work. As for pricing you probably won't get much help here, cause every one has there own pricing structure. We all have different overhead costs, labour costs, material discounts and climate. Coming from eastern Ontario Canada, my install (base) would be much different from someone from Texas. Therefore time and material would be different.

[zedosix]

Lance, when do you expect to start this year? I am hoping for 3rd week of April:rolleyes:

[Lance L]

i think that was mean for landstyles zedo, if it was for me, ummmm never even stopped though.

thanks for the site reference landstyles

[zedosix]

i think that was mean for landstyles zedo, if it was for me, ummmm never even stopped though.



oops, I meant Landstyles. Sorry

[landstyles]

Zedosix...Last year i started 3rd week of April. Hope for the same. The sooner the better. Getting cabin fever in my office. Need to build some walls and lay some pavers, lol. I hear we may be getting another 30cm of snow on Saturday.

[Lance L]

hey landstyles, i looked at the permacon site and what im looking to do is nothing like any of that, im wanting to do, a row of like 3or4"h x 3or4"d x 12"w natural stones just to replace some green metal edging, and possibly go 2 stones high.

from what i have been told, dig down 1" deeper than mid stone, so if they are 4" dig down 3" at the lowest point, so some may be more burried than others(to keep level), pour a 1" base with concrete, and use either concrete or mortar, to fill the joints.

whats missing or whats wrong?

[PSUturf]

When we have installed natural stone edging there was limited base prep. The stones were about 1 1/2" thick. We stripped about 1" of sod or bed material. If needed we added a small amount of sand for leveling irregular stones. Do your best to fit pieces together to minimize the gaps between stones.

I don't remember the exact pricing. I think we charged about $800 for 55 feet of edging. The stone was about $250. It took 2 guys about 5 hours, including travel time.

[Lance L]

what did you use to fill the joints?

[PSUturf]

Joints are left open. Since it is a single row of stone that is set slightly above grade any material in the joints would flow out when it rains. Just take your time setting them in place. Make sure the top of each stone is at the same level as the neighboring stone (as much as possible). Stone edging looks great when done right. Also a great way to reduce string trimming because you can run a push mower tire over the stones.

[Lance L]

so does grass not grow in between? cuz of not filling them, st agustine and bermuda here in my area

[zedosix]

Zedosix...Last year i started 3rd week of April. Hope for the same. The sooner the better. Getting cabin fever in my office. Need to build some walls and lay some pavers, lol. I hear we may be getting another 30cm of snow on Saturday.

Ya I was rubbin it in to my plowing buds. They are pissed big time, we are currently near the record of 1971, it snowed 415cm that year, I think we are nearing 400 now. For you southeners out there, thats 13 feet of the white stuff.

[landstyles]

Ya I was rubbin it in to my plowing buds. They are pissed big time, we are currently near the record of 1971, it snowed 415cm that year, I think we are nearing 400 now. For you southeners out there, thats 13 feet of the white stuff.

You don't plow?....If not did your company ever plow?

[SOUTHERNGREENSCAPES]

Here is how you do it, you call me....LOL

[landstyles]

Southerngreenscapes. Great work. How long and how many guys to complete the job?

[zedosix]

You don't plow?....If not did your company ever plow?

It used to interfere with snowmobiling so I haven't plowed since 1994. Now I sold the sled and practise karate on my time off instead. Life has a way of changing, its not good to keep doing the same things over and over.

[landstyles]

It used to interfere with snowmobiling so I haven't plowed since 1994. Now I sold the sled and practise karate on my time off instead. Life has a way of changing, its not good to keep doing the same things over and over.

Going into my second year in business, I bid on some snow contracts this past season, but realized alot of guys do it almost for free. Seeing you've been in business for quite awhile, is it worth the headaches to push snow in the winter?

[zedosix]

Going into my second year in business, I bid on some snow contracts this past season, but realized alot of guys do it almost for free. Seeing you've been in business for quite awhile, is it worth the headaches to push snow in the winter?

Not worth it in my opinion. When December comes around I put away all my equipment and trucks. They sit there til I need them again in the spring. Its the only way to do it in my books. There is no money to be made unless you charge min. 400 per double driveway, and you put a cap on the amount, usually set at 250cms, 100". After that you charge them by the shot. The last year I was pushing snow I blew a tranny in my pick up and it took 1 month to get it back. I had to hire another contractor and by the time it was all over I could count less than 2k profit on the season. We do that in a day during the summer.

[landstyles]

Not worth it in my opinion. When December comes around I put away all my equipment and trucks. They sit there til I need them again in the spring. Its the only way to do it in my books. There is no money to be made unless you charge min. 400 per double driveway, and you put a cap on the amount, usually set at 250cms, 100". After that you charge them by the shot. The last year I was pushing snow I blew a tranny in my pick up and it took 1 month to get it back. I had to hire another contractor and by the time it was all over I could count less than 2k profit on the season. We do that in a day during the summer.
Thanks for the advice. It's nice as first year guy to get input from the successful guys.
By the way, are you heading to the Techo-Bloc show tomorrow?

[zedosix]

I will likely go tomorrow morning.

[zedosix]

What did you think of Techo-block show in Ottawa yesterday Landstyles? Pretty intense guy that Paver Pete! I'd take him in on my crew if I could afford to pay him!

[landstyles]

Wasn't bad. You got to like the support Techo is willing to give us. I really like using their products. Marco's a great guy to deal with.

[Lance L]

zedo please tell me how its done

[Daner]

Lance,

the basics for a flower bed are...cut your ground material deep enough that the paver will be flush with the ground> set your stone paver in right up to the next keeping it as leval as posible and lay them all around the bed> fill the out side with soil and grass seed> fill the inside with your mulch> brush the stone with a broom and your done

[Daner]

Lance,

the basics for a flower bed are...cut your ground material deep enough that the paver will be flush with the ground> set your stone paver in right up to the next keeping it as leval as posible and lay them all around the bed> fill the out side with soil and grass seed> fill the inside with your mulch> brush the stone with a broom and your done

I forgot:hammerhead:...add some lime stone screenings under the stones:waving:

[dougmartin2003]

not really, im fine with doing it, but have heard different methods....

why is it so hard to get any answers from people on this site? the forum is to help people isnt it? seems most are to lazy to actually reply to a question... if im going to mess something up then its going to get messed up, let me worry about that, if its a disaster which i find hard to pull off on a stone border, then i will pay someone to come in and fix it.

stick to something i know? everyone needs to start somewhere, i would think that a border for a bed is the simplest place to start dont you? im just looking for someone to mention the proper techniques to keep from having to go back and redo this, and an idea of how long this type of job will take.

not tryin to be a a$$ but dam*, if you arent posting to help with the questions asked dont post, the job is going to be done, just looking to do it the rite way the first time around.

dont feel bad man, i got my ass chewed out one time because i ask for some help in finding the best chemical to get rid of clover in my own back yard.