Organic Matter

[jonesey]

Need to rasie the organic matter in the soil from .07% to 4.00% can use cow manure do not know the organic matter in the cow manure need help.

[Smallaxe]

Organic Matter is organic matter, for the most part. Some more digestted than others but I never thought of there being an OM that is more OM than another.

[jonesey]

Need to know the % of organic matter in composted cow manure. yes organic matter is organic matter no mater what.

[Organic a go go]

Need to know the % of organic matter in composted cow manure. yes organic matter is organic matter no mater what.

You're not going to get where you want to go thinking like that. If you're currently at <%1 OM and you want to arrive at %4 then then the answer is
it'll take a lot of manure. Why is %4 your magic number?? Keep adding till you see the results you want and if for some reason you've promised someone %4 then you'll have to keep doing a soil test to know for sure but numbers aren't the key, results are.

[jonesey]

This is not a # that i pulled out of a hat.
It is the specs. for the job the GC bid the job then asked for a bid from me on the hydroseeding.
The top soil that they hauled in was tested and was at .07% OM.
Got 1.5 Acres to do at 4" deep if the cow manure is 50% OM i will have to haul in about 90 ton. Have not ever had to add OM to soil new to me all specs. for all new city jobs will have this new specs on it. all OM will be 4% or above.

[Organic a go go]

This is not a # that i pulled out of a hat.
It is the specs. for the job the GC bid the job then asked for a bid from me on the hydroseeding.
The top soil that they hauled in was tested and was at .07% OM.
Got 1.5 Acres to do at 4" deep if the cow manure is 50% OM i will have to haul in about 90 ton. Have not ever had to add OM to soil new to me all specs. for all new city jobs will have this new specs on it. all OM will be 4% or above.

Well someone will have to pay for a soil test to confirm those numbers. If you're looking for a definite formula I don't think you'll find it. Do the specs include a time frame or do you have to do magic overnight?

[jonesey]

Magic overnight

[Kiril]

I'm curious how this is your responsibility? If the GC hauled in the topsoil, wouldn't it be his responsibility to adhere to city specs?

[jonesey]

Yes will have to do sol test city will pay for all passing test

[jonesey]

GC is paying me to add OM to the soil

[Kiril]

GC is paying me to add OM to the soil

The way I see it, the OM% should have been established prior to adding the topsoil (eg. the topsoil should have been amended to meet the city specs). Seems to me he is passing off his mistake onto you.

In any event, what are the exact specs (link to a document).

As far as OM%, I would think 100% (oven dry) is a safe bet, unless inorganic materials have been added. I also sincerely hope this stuff has been composted.

[jonesey]

Yes it has been composted for 2 years

[ICT Bill]

Find a large Arborist in your area that composts his trees. Composted wood is an excellent source of organic matter and typically cheap too. Just make sure the folks are good at composting ask for their testing data.
Ask if they have any that is 2 years old, newer wood compost will suck all of the nurients out of the soil while it decomposes

You should get great pricing at tandem load quantities

I REALLY like that standard that they put in place. Can you site the number of the regulation and who is citing it so I can take a look at it, I am trying to introduce the exact legislation in our area. part of a sustainable sites initiative

[Kiril]

I REALLY like that standard that they put in place. Can you site the number of the regulation and who is citing it so I can take a look at it, I am trying to introduce the exact legislation in our area. part of a sustainable sites initiative

I happen to agree with you, but I am curious....your thoughts

What good will it do to mandate a certain OM percentage for initial site development, if management practices do not maintain that level?

[jonesey]

We get a spec. book for ever job that we are going to look at to bid it is from the engineer for the jod the city oks the spec. This is a City of Fort Smith, Arkansas job at Lake Shepherd Springs State Park. The engineer is Mickle Wanger Coleman, INC.

[Kiril]

So is this an engineering spec or a city code?

[jonesey]

Engineering spec.

[Kiril]

So now I am confused. In a previous post you said it was required on all city jobs, which would imply a city code.

Can you provide a copy of the spec for our consumption? :)

[jonesey]

This engineer will use this spec. on all jobs he dose for the city it is not in the city spec. book but they do all of the city work at time so the city will start to use this some time can not post the spec. i do not have all of it will do soil test fo OM% will add to the sol to make up to 4% the top soil that we get is sand with a low OM% THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP

[Organic a go go]

Im confused. Like you guys I'd be really interested in hearing more of the details but the way its been laid out thus far anyway seems like it's overly burdensome on the GC, or sub in this case. Wouldn't it make more sense to have certain benchmark %'s that would have to be achieved over a given period of time? Like Kiril says what good does a 4% OM install do if you don't continue to add OM? And why 4%?? Why not 6%??

[Smallaxe]

It sounds like the GC talked the City or State Park officials into accepting a bid for the job and they should 'require' a certain % of OM in the soil as they accept the bids. This is a 'quality' issue on the finished product.

Cow manure should be a 100% OM if there is no sand or foriegn material, (inorganic) in the mix. Is that fair to say? As Kiril pointed out dry matter is the criteria by which to measure.

So how deep does the sample have to be in the soil? 4" of compost should be alot more than 4%, (when your sample is only 4" deep), and, if it is not blended in with the mineral soil under it. You can always work the numbers, (if you have a good line), and justify the reasoning behind it.

Kiril is also correct on the maintenance program to keep it at 4%, (or more). So I would make that a major selling point to the officials or the GC.

[jonesey]

GC is not for here he said that all top soil would have more then 4% OM in it he was wrong. the engineer dose not care if it is keep at 4% or more. need one test at 4% or more and he is happy. Will not be a maintenance program on this site. This is the from **** just my luck.

[PHS]

It sounds like to me what they are trying to do is use OM% to help ensure that it's actually a 'topsoil' they are using instead of a subsoil i.e. less expensive, poor quality, etc. In an overly simplistic way that might be a key difference between the quality of the soils they can easily specify. Whether that legislation really helps, that's a different subject that isn't going to help him.

jonesey, I think if this were me the first thing I would do is call the soils testing lab and talk to one of the soil scientists that can give you some insight into the test and they can probably point you in the right direction as to how to bump up those levels quickly. If they are measuring the humus content in the soil for example, then adding raw organic matter to the soil isn't going to change the % on the test for a long time even though technically you added lots of OM.

[Smallaxe]

Good point PHS,

Would adding a bag of humates be better for testing purposes?
Definately talk to someone who decides what is or is not the definition of OM%.

[ICT Bill]

Wow I never thought of Arkansas as being progressive, but whack me over the head with a dead squirrel

I think PHS is right on. They are writing the spec to ensure that they get a soil that is actually top soil and not just dirt. Our recommendation to lawn and landscape professionals is to get soils to 5% to 7% SOM for sustainable lawn care, 4% is still a good number. PHS also make a good suggestion on talking to the staff and asking exactly what are they testing for.

Soils with good SOM also create better porousity and hold more water, less runoff, etc. It is the basic building block of fertile soil

Jonesy, thanks for the contact info, I'll try to track them down. Have you found a Tree company yet?

If you look at this report http://www.sustainablesites.org/report.html by the ASLA this is part of an effort to leave the site better or at least as good as it was before it was disturbed

[Kiril]

I also agree with PHS. An OM% specified by an engineer for landscape purpose suggests a material verification.

As far as testing, organic matter is organic matter. The typical methods used (loss-on-ignition and Walkley-Black) to determine OM% in a soil sample do not distinguish between different types.

It is worth pointing out however that if PHS is correct about material verification, then using a subsoil and adding OM is not the same as a true top soil.

[kristink]

Speaking from experience in soil sampling for 4 1/2 years, I would suggest getting a kit from a university or soil sampling lab. I have worked with Agvise in the past, and I know that they have specific manure kits that you can use to see what manure levels you are at. I do know that manure is higher in phosphorus levels, which will really establish good grass health and rid disease! So get the lawnmower ready! ;)

[PHS]

As far as testing, organic matter is organic matter. The typical methods used (loss-on-ignition and Walkley-Black) to determine OM% in a soil sample do not distinguish between different types.

That's true but I think I would still talk to the lab. Depending on how they prepare the samples and what is being added, the newly applied materials may not make it through a fine sieve to be part of the sample results.