questions from Teaming with Microbes book

[lawncuttinfoo]

(3rd printing)
On page 155 they suggest mixing grass seed with "vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizae (VAM)" for food web benefits. However they do not explain exactly what form this is sold in, how to acquire it and so on.
Does anyone know?

On page 153 they discuss purchasing an inexpensive chlorine filter and install it on the outside hose bib.
Does anyone have any examples of this?

Also on page 153 they refer to corn gluten's "10-10-10 formula" this is a typo, correct?

[Organic a go go]

(3rd printing)
On page 155 they suggest mixing grass seed with "vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizae (VAM)" for food web benefits. However they do not explain exactly what form this is sold in, how to acquire it and so on.
Does anyone know??



Don't know if this is what they're referring to specifically but:

http://www.mycorrhizae.com

[Barefoot James]

See above link and here is the product. it is in powder form and can be sprayed directlyon the seed.

MycoApply® Ultrafine Endo micronized mycorrhizal
powder inoculum consists of a blend of spores of 4
endomycorrhizal fungi species. The powder comes in a particle size less than 220 microns (#70
screen). This concentrated, fine material is ideal for “water in” or “spray” applications. About 90%
of the world’s plant species form symbiotic relationships with these beneficial endomycorrhizal fungi.
They colonize plant roots, expand into the surrounding soil and greatly increase the root's ability to
absorb water and nutrients, while improving plant yields and health.
Directions Benefits
Reduces:
Drought stress
Water and fertilizer needs
Transplant shock
Increases:
Flowering and fruiting
Water and nutrient storage
and uptake
Root growth
Promotes:
Extensive root system
Soil structure
Plant establishment
The goal is to place the spores in close contact to the roots.
(1) Watering in : (Porous soil only)- Mix into water at minimum rate of 1.5 tablespoons
per gallon ( No harm in using stronger ratios if desired-- especially for problem
plants). Mix well and keep agitated. Mist or dip plant root systems during
transplanting or water in as a soil drench. Will treat 75 one-gallon plants.
(2) Restoration: Use 7 pounds per acre for broadcast or hydromulch operation before
or during plantings.
(3) Nurseries: Inoculum can be mixed in planting soil before/during filling cavities,
pots, and trays. Use .20 to .60 pounds per cubic yard, depending on cavity size
(higher rates for smaller cavities).
(4) Compost Tea: Use 0.7 pounds per 50 gallons of tea, as a soil drench. Apply tea at
normal rate.
(5) Transplants: Touch damp roots to the inoculum so a small amount sticks to the
roots or sprinkle into planting holes. Use 1 gram under each cutting: 1 teaspoon for
potted transplants; 1 tablespoon per inch of stem caliper plantings.
Ingredients Specifics
Endomycorrhizal fungi: Glomus intraradices, G. mosseae, G. aggregatum: G. etunicatum
130,000 propagules/lb.

Cost with shipping is about $300 per 20 lbs - expensive but your get results.
ICT also has myco in it and it works great too!

I asked them your question too and here is the answer about application.

Our Endo Plus Product would be a good choice to add to the soil when preparing to plant or to broadcast with seed.
For established turf though, it would need to be after aerification and/or cutting to allow the granules to get into the soil.
With any application, you want to get the product in close proximity with the rootzone.

Our Micronized Endo or Ultrafine Endo can be mixed with your compost tea or mixed with water and applied as a soil drench.
Another good option would be our Micronized Endo/Ecto which would also help with any trees that are in the landscape as well.


If you have any more specific questions or if there is anything else I can help you with, feel free to contact me.

Thanks for your interest in our products.

Dana Zozaya
Mycorrhizal Applications, Inc.
541-476-3985 fax-541-476-1581
dana@mycorrhizae.com

[DUSTYCEDAR]

CHEEP CHLORINE FILTERS?
a shower filter is a cheep way but a low flow 2.5 gal per min is the norm
but they r cheep here is a link to some http://www.waterfiltercomparisons.net/Compare_Shower_Filters.cfm
most get 90% of the chlorine out

[Kiril]

CHEEP CHLORINE FILTERS?
a shower filter is a cheep way but a low flow 2.5 gal per min is the norm
but they r cheep here is a link to some http://www.waterfiltercomparisons.net/Compare_Shower_Filters.cfm
most get 90% of the chlorine out

Errrr, relatively cheap to purchase, not so much to maintain.

If you need to filter, why not buy a cheap bucket and some GAC (granular activated carbon)? Drill some holes in the bottom of the bucket, put a screen in the bottom to keep the carbon in, then fill your CT container by running water through your "carbon filter". :)

[phasthound]

Some inexpensive ways to remove chlorine is to aerate the water for 1/2 hour before adding ingredients for brewing, or fill the tank & let it sit over night without a lid on it, or add humates before brewing.

[treegal1]

chlorine is a problem that can be solved with a out gassing column, the real issue will be heavy metal such as fluoride.

the best way to remove large amounts of pollution is a water softener, ion exchange is a great tool. the carbon will work slowly in a bucket, try a whole house filter from a home imp. store. or reclaim rain water/ pond water,

[lawncuttinfoo]

double post

[lawncuttinfoo]

Oh sorry about not clarifying for those who have not read/did not refer back to the book. When they are talking about the filter they are talking about wattering your lawn, so I'm refering to something that is installed on the faucet. I'm not talking about small ammounts for CT, I have a plan for that already.

[Kiril]

Then you will need one whopping big filter depending on your flow requirements.

[treegal1]

at 80 deg the spray from a sprinkler head will out gas almost all the chlorine from your water or you can use a softener, the larger ones will handle 80 n grains of dissolved material. the fluoride is still in question ?

[lawncuttinfoo]

Has anyone used this?

http://dutchguard.com/cuzn-gardenmate-chlorine-water-filter-p-yard.html

It says it does not use carbon and it is so small it does not look like it would do much. And what do you think "Removes both free and combined chlorines" means? Also this one does not say what percentage is removed.

Another one I found was this:

http://www.watershed.net/gardengro.aspx

This one says it removes 85% of chlorine (would that be anough to safely brew CT or use as the water source after it is brewed?)
but does not say anything about chloramine. Also this one is much larger, so it appears it is doing more.

Thoughts?

[treegal1]

i think that free means Cl and combined means sodiumhypocloride or another mixed molecule


85 % is OK but 100% is better
an out gassing column is the easiest way

can you answer the fluoride in the water question, if there is then good luck getting water that you can use. also pH and dissolved solids , elec., pot.,....... junk water will only brew junk or poor tea.here we go again same old song, get it tested, now i sound like a scratched CD.

look at a softener with a carbon filter on line should only cost $500 to have almost unlimited clean water for 5 years. we have a good well and still filter it with $4000 worth of high tech gear. just remember we raise fish too.

[treegal1]

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=31217-43353-WHELJ1&lpage=none

here try this
it is ok price wise

[Kiril]

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=31217-43353-WHELJ1&lpage=none

here try this
it is ok price wise

IMHO, don't waste your money. A decent filter setup with quality components is going to set you back anywhere from 800-1400 depending on the capacity you need.

After many, many hours searching the Internet for a whole house filter that gave the most bang for the buck, this is the site I found that had the most flexible options with competitive prices.

http://www.ohiopurewater.com/

I put together a whole house filtration system for about $2400 that should provide bottled water quality. If buying one of the "pre-packaged" systems like Culligan and others offer, this system would have cost $5000 or more. :)

[treegal1]

oh yeah,that IS A NICE FILTER PAC.
the Lowe's filter was just an easy start point, i have never tried it or seen the data, just the first to come up with a google search.

we spent $4000 at least and always wished we had more to spend on water quality.we use 2x reverse osmosis units with a high loss pre filter and a 200 lbs carbon and zeolite softener that gets changed every year, with a 200 gallon storage tank that has a UV light built in to it and an ozone port that we don't use.also we have an water electrolysis unit that can change the ion charge in the water(keyogen water)and still we are always running out of water. we use on average 1440 1600 gals per day just to brew and a total of 3000 with fish and algae production.the compost gets Strait well water.

[Barefoot James]

I brew 50 gals of tea 2 x and growing per week.
2 bath and use 200 gals per day in water.

What specifically would you recommend from this site to make great tea and have great water for my home? - for $2400.

BTW Louisville has great water according to national test and our local paper who loves to bash anyone - so if they confirm it it must be true!

[Kiril]

I brew 50 gals of tea 2 x and growing per week.
2 bath and use 200 gals per day in water.

What specifically would you recommend from this site to make great tea and have great water for my home? - for $2400.

BTW Louisville has great water according to national test and our local paper who loves to bash anyone - so if they confirm it it must be true!

I put a 2.5 cubic foot into my house, with a couple of pre-filters and a UV unit. I also got the centaur carbon with the KDF (don't know if the KDF will do anything worthwhile). My setup should provide somewhere between 8-10 gal/min sustained throughput without losing filter effectiveness.

In order to determine what size filter you need, make a list of all your water consuming appliances and their rated outputs. Then go through the list and determine how many might be used simultaneously (ex. 2 showers, 2 sinks, dishwasher).

I wouldn't worry too much about the requirements for CT since that is not a frequent use item like a shower or toilet.

Here's a couple of pics of my filter closet while I was fitting everything together.

Note -> I DID NOT run sprinklers/outdoor hose bibs through the filter.

[lawncuttinfoo]

i
can you answer the fluoride in the water question, if there is then good luck getting water that you can use. also pH and dissolved solids , elec., pot.,....... junk water will only brew junk or poor tea.here we go again same old song, get it tested, now i sound like a scratched CD.


I was under the impression that most if not all utilities add flouride to the water these days.

Does aerating remove Flouride? If not then how?

I was under the impression aerating my city water would get me AACT ready water.

[DUSTYCEDAR]

i have city water also and need to brew tea with it -what to do?

[ICT Bill]

A lot of municipalities have moved to chloramine, it much more stable in the water system. chloramines cannot be gassed off they have to be changed into something else.
You can use, vitamin C, humates, we use sodium thiosulphate in our product. But you either have to overwhelm the chloramines with humate or change it.

sodium thiosulphate breaks the chlorine ammonia bond and changes the chlorine to a harmless chloride. typical municipal systems using chloramines try to have a level of chlorine around 4PPM, 36% of that is ammonia.

So that leaves you with aorund 1.5PPM of ammonia and the rest chloride

[lawncuttinfoo]

I am considering using using Humic acid and a garden gro dechlorator. Does that sound good to get started?

How about rain water into a bucket off my roof? It would be stagnant for awhile between brews, would this grow bad bacteria?

I want to avoid aerating to save the time needed.

[phasthound]

I just add enough humate to make the water turn a light brown & then brew. I've had great results with my teas.
But I confess to not owning a microscope & only test infrequently.

My thoughts are, if I'm getting results, I don't have a problem.

Keep in mind that there is nothing on this planet that is not contaminated by man made chemicals.

[treegal1]

Chloramine can be removed from tap water by treatment with superchlorination (10 ppm or more of free chlorine, such as from a dose of sodium hypochlorite bleach or pool sanitizer) while maintaining a pH of about 7 (such as from a dose of hydrochloric acid). Hypochlorous acid from the free chlorine strips the ammonia from the chloramine, and the ammonia outgasses from the surface of the bulk water. This process takes about 24 hours for normal tap water concentrations of a few ppm of chloramine. Residual free chlorine can then be removed by exposure to bright sunlight for about 4 hours.

[ICT Bill]

Sounds like a lot of work
Why not use acetic acid or sodium thiosulphate (ST)
ST is one drop per gallon and then go, no waiting

Acetic acid or vitamin C works great too, dose and go

I appreciate the chemistry but sometimes you want a good to great solution that saves time

[treegal1]

good idea the vinegar will cause a reaction as,
The kinetics and mechanism of the reaction between Cl2 and ClO2- are in acetate buffer by observation of ClO2 formation. The reaction is first-order in [Cl2] and [ClO2-], with a rate constant of k1 = (5.7 ± 0.2) × 105 M-1 s-1 at 25.0 C. Nucleophilic attack by ClO2- on Cl2, with Cl+ transfer to form ClOClO and Cl-, is proposed as the rate-determining step. A possible two-step electron-transfer mechanism for Cl2 and ClO2- is refuted by the lack of ClO2 suppression. The yield of ClO2 is much less than 100%, due to the rapid reactions of the metastable ClOClO intermediate via two competing pathways. In one path, ClOClO reacts with ClO2- to form 2ClO2 and Cl-, while in the other path it hydrolyzes to give ClO3- and Cl-. The observed rate constant also is affected by acetate-assisted hydrolysis of Cl2. The rate of Cl2 loss is suppressed as the concentration of Cl- increases, due to the formation of Cl3-. In excess ClO2-, a much slower formation of ClO2 is observed after the initial Cl2 reaction, due to the presence of HOCl, which reacts with H+ and Cl- to re-form steady-state levels of Cl2.and is very rapid.

thanx bill the acetate idea is golden, low pH water can be fixed this way also

[DUSTYCEDAR]

wow treegal i can say i dont have any clue what u typed but ill find out
i am thank full that everyone is so help full

[phasthound]

good idea the vinegar will cause a reaction as,
The kinetics and mechanism of the reaction between Cl2 and ClO2- are in acetate buffer by observation of ClO2 formation. The reaction is first-order in [Cl2] and [ClO2-], with a rate constant of k1 = (5.7 ± 0.2) × 105 M-1 s-1 at 25.0 C. Nucleophilic attack by ClO2- on Cl2, with Cl+ transfer to form ClOClO and Cl-, is proposed as the rate-determining step. A possible two-step electron-transfer mechanism for Cl2 and ClO2- is refuted by the lack of ClO2 suppression. The yield of ClO2 is much less than 100%, due to the rapid reactions of the metastable ClOClO intermediate via two competing pathways. In one path, ClOClO reacts with ClO2- to form 2ClO2 and Cl-, while in the other path it hydrolyzes to give ClO3- and Cl-. The observed rate constant also is affected by acetate-assisted hydrolysis of Cl2. The rate of Cl2 loss is suppressed as the concentration of Cl- increases, due to the formation of Cl3-. In excess ClO2-, a much slower formation of ClO2 is observed after the initial Cl2 reaction, due to the presence of HOCl, which reacts with H+ and Cl- to re-form steady-state levels of Cl2.and is very rapid.

thanx bill the acetate idea is golden, low pH water can be fixed this way also

Whoa Gal, you're making me dizzy. :dizzy:

[ICT Bill]

I think she said and I'm paraphrasing here.

"it changes from one thing into another"

[Kiril]

I think she said and I'm paraphrasing here.

"it changes from one thing into another"

Yes.

Kinetics and Mechanisms of Aqueous Chlorine Reactions with Chlorite Ion in the Presence of Chloride Ion and Acetic Acid/Acetate Buffer (http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/inocaj/2002/41/i02/abs/ic010762a.html)

[treegal1]

oh yes, i see a fellow geek in the room. nice pickup.
do you want the full pdf

[Kiril]

oh yes, i see a fellow geek in the room. nice pickup.
do you want the full pdf

Sure, never hurts to have it in the archive. You can PM it to me. I might even have something in there that might interest you, let me know what you might be interested in.

[ICT Bill]

I can see Treegal and Kiril dropping their pocket protector in a rush to access the archive. Lets seee HHMMM sodium article, no....... how about the USDA report on warm grasses, NO.............HHMMM Kiril finds an article about how there is certain type of grass that IS KILLING THE WORLD, perfect

Its a PDF shoot out boy's duck for cover
:gunsfirin:gunsfirin:gunsfirin:gunsfirin:gunsfirin

[Kiril]

HHMMM Kiril finds an article about how there is certain type of grass that IS KILLING THE WORLD, perfect

Actually...... :p

http://www.alternet.org/environment/28361?page=entire

[tadhussey]

Ascorbic acid is another option. Google "Vita d Chlor"

That's what we use.

[treegal1]

what is needed is a sure fire cure for red spider mites in my worn beds. we have try-ed all the standard treatments.
is pyretherins a good option. neem oils are not doing it and sulfur is counter productive at best. even a hint of an off label mitacide would help.

[Kiril]

what is needed is a sure fire cure for red spider mites in my worn beds. we have try-ed all the standard treatments.
is pyretherins a good option. neem oils are not doing it and sulfur is counter productive at best. even a hint of an off label mitacide would help.

Maybe bio control:
http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/ent/biocontrol/predators/phytoseiulus_persimilis.html

[wallzwallz]

This is what the Organic gardners handbook says:sPray fruit trees w/ dormant oil to kill overwintering eggs;release predatory mites Measeiulus occidentalis on fruit trees, Phytoseiulus persimilis or similiar species on veggies,strawberries and flowers; spray insecticidal soap,pyrethrin,or neem as a last resort, spray infected plants w/ avermectins.

It seems you already know most or all but thought I would offer up something new. I have no experience w/ any of these methods.

[wallzwallz]

I need to type faster, Kiril posted the answer before I could type mine. What is a worn bed?

[DUSTYCEDAR]

place moist newspaper on top of the beds it will draw the mites up to the top then remove the paper and the mites.
u can also water the bed heavily to drive the mites to the top and then vacuum them off or use a torch to burn them i like fire.

[treegal1]

ok first back to reality, the beds we are talking about are 24x8 feet x 2, there is no floor in the beds only 2x4inch holes in the wire. so flooding is out. avermectin and all other mectins are toxic to worms. the moist news paper is a good idea if you have the time, try some lime juice and they will run to it. the torch idea is OK if you like fried worms, most of my worms live in the top 3 inches, 4000 worms to the square foot and the mites go very deep 6-8 inches.

what the question was; will pyretherins work or is there a miteacide some one has seen or knows about.

thanks for the bio site Kiril :waving:

[DUSTYCEDAR]

try a wet sheet instead of the news paper

if u want do a test in a bucket with the worms to see how they react to your spray