How badly must you need compost?

[Newby08]

OK, I know some of you are going to think I have not learned a thing :hammerhead:, but I need to know for a fact.

I understand that compost is needed to provide food for microorganisms and organic matter to the soil. But... could you get away with only using a CT on the already existing soil? or is there not going to be enough stuff there already to survive? I know it depends on the history of the soil. But lets look at a few examples.

1) New construction where they have taken the top soil and just left good ole red clay.

2) Established "healthy" lawn that has been using synthetic chemicals for a while.

3) Established "healthy" lawn that has not used chemicals other than when needed.

4) An established lawn that has not used chemicals other than spot treatment but is still pretty healthy. We mostly have bermuda and it generally takes care of itself if they kept it cut right.

5) Just a plane old lawn that has a mixture of everything but should be able to reclaim pretty well.

The reason I'm asking is that it seems that this is going to be a pretty labor intensive process and here at the beginning of doing organics seems to take a long time to perform. Lets say that i get 40 customers the first month... that means I'll have to do 40 treatments of compost... is it that important to have the compost down right away?

Issues:
- thats a lot of compost... how am i suppose to transport/store all of that?
- thats a lot of time and work, I got all these people that need it done. Is this even pheasable?
- it doesn't look like its going to be a cheap process. I know to charge but is it going to possibly push some people away?

any thoughts or experiences on how you handle this and how you apply the compost would be greatly appreciated.

thanks, :D

[Kiril]

CT soil drench without food = no good

[Newby08]

well that sucks, so what is the best most effecient way to put down the compost? I've heard some people say that using a 5 gallon bucket and your hand works fine but that seems very time consuming. I also have seen the compost spreaders but don't want to have to spend the money right away. I wander if i can gerry rig an old spreader to see if that will work? I think I might try that, I'll let y'all know what I have found.

[NattyLawn]

OK, I know some of you are going to think I have not learned a thing :hammerhead:, but I need to know for a fact.

I understand that compost is needed to provide food for microorganisms and organic matter to the soil. But... could you get away with only using a CT on the already existing soil? or is there not going to be enough stuff there already to survive? I know it depends on the history of the soil. But lets look at a few examples.

1) New construction where they have taken the top soil and just left good ole red clay.

2) Established "healthy" lawn that has been using synthetic chemicals for a while.

3) Established "healthy" lawn that has not used chemicals other than when needed.

4) An established lawn that has not used chemicals other than spot treatment but is still pretty healthy. We mostly have bermuda and it generally takes care of itself if they kept it cut right.

5) Just a plane old lawn that has a mixture of everything but should be able to reclaim pretty well.

The reason I'm asking is that it seems that this is going to be a pretty labor intensive process and here at the beginning of doing organics seems to take a long time to perform. Lets say that i get 40 customers the first month... that means I'll have to do 40 treatments of compost... is it that important to have the compost down right away?

Issues:
- thats a lot of compost... how am i suppose to transport/store all of that?
- thats a lot of time and work, I got all these people that need it done. Is this even pheasable?
- it doesn't look like its going to be a cheap process. I know to charge but is it going to possibly push some people away?

any thoughts or experiences on how you handle this and how you apply the compost would be greatly appreciated.

thanks, :D

You're probably going to get a lot of different answers to these questions. I don't feel you need to add compost, but I use a lot of fert and soil amendments that I have a PG to help me do. It saves my back.

1. Your looking at 3 years to get that soil right. If you don't want to topdress, pound it with 20lbs of organic fertilizers twice in the spring and twice in the fall. Spray tea in the spring, and fall. Add food substrates for the tea to survive.
2. Soil test. You might have a little bit of drop off if switching from synthetic to organic. You want to re-introduce the biology. Organic based fert and tea should do the trick.
3,4, and 5. Tea


Disclaimer: I don't deal with southern turfgrasses.

[Newby08]

Are these steps the steps that you take during the first year or so of your clients? If so you say that you want to build up the soil, does the fert give the necessary food for the microorganisms to thrive? I was always told you needed to have the compost as a good transition. If the ferts will work also by supplying the existing soil with the proper nutrients for the microorganisms to survive then I don't see how it could be too much different other than it will take more time for the soil to be built up enough.
Looks like you use a lot of tea also... are the treatments spread out through the year or do you have a certain time that you like to put them down?

thanks for the input,

[Newby08]

another question... how many sq ft can i get out of about 1 yard of compost at 1/4" thick? Anyone know?

[wallzwallz]

1296 sq ft, is the math of it, I believe, but find it hard to believe you would get more than 7-800 sq ft. 1/4 inch even, spread by hand, on grass is probably near impossible.

[Smallaxe]

Kiril was right. No sense in starting a population of anything without feeding it. The actual truth is that you do not need a magical number of 1/2 inch or even, 1/4 inch coverage to accomplish your goal.

You need something to feed the Microbes. If you think about it , it will make sense. A banquet may go to waste right now anyway.

No need to kill yourself over getting 'x' number of cu.yd. of compost per k., just get something down to create a hospitable environment for bacteria/archaea to establish. That is what you are spraying down, so that is what you want to feed.

those bacteria/archaea are the critters which will digest the thatch and transform it into grass food. The very first year. :) If there is more for next year, then you are surviving on thatch.

The Lawn still looks dull?!? Add some urea and keep on truckin'.
Soon NPK is a thing of the past. But: Most importantly of all is that - do not let the clients down. If you have to add 1/2 the npk they are used to - so be it.

Next year it will be 1/4.
Is the glass half full or half empty?

[Newby08]

so I don't necessarily have to use compost? I think thats what your saying. This then leads me into an area that I have only seen but not touched. I've tried to leave this to the guys who know there stuff until I felt that I was ready to tackle it. I guess I have prolonged it as much as I can.

Meals...

This I take it is what you mean by feeding the "critters." Now, the reason that I have tried to leave this to the more knowledgeable is that I couldn't tell you how many different kinds I've seen from bone meals to fish meals, etc. etc. The list from what I can tell just goes on and on. PLEASE tell me I am wrong, or that there is a simple way of knowing what meals are good for what purposes, or even better, they all do the same thing its just giving a balanced diet. Fish for dinner today, meat tomorrow, and don't forget your vegetables. I have a feeling I'm kind of pushing it though trying to be so simple with it all.

Maybe I'm wrong all together... just when I thought I was just getting the hang of some of the basic basics.

Thanks guys,

[Smallaxe]

I would make compost - 'job one'. I am just saying you do not need as much as 'x'(compost)/ k.

You like milk now; and as you drink it, you grow to eat the fish, chicken and beef tomorrow. So do your critters build the necessary populations with the food available.

Not every bacteria/archaea will be eating the grass clippings every week , but the populations you build with a - 'little' - bit of compost will live long enough to feed on the clippings. All living populations take time.

The thinking of this product for that result- mentality - is what moved horticulture away from natural processes to begin with. When you work with natural processes you are not looking for instant gratification. but you can add it if you want it. That is the good thing :) The best of both worlds, however, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Not indefinately.

[Barefoot James]

I know i'm not a Kiril or a Natty just a Barefoot. The bottom line is this is a GREAT question that has not be addressed. Here is my program and I have over 100 customers that have some faith in organics and that I will do what it takes to make it right.

Based on what I have learned and studied I think I know this.

Facts -
1. I power seeded 65 lawns last fall - with a 9 hp Turf Revitilazer and Tall Fescue.
2. I sprayed 25 of those lawns with ICT and had GREAT results - MYCO really works.
3. I own a Microbulator 50 from Tim Wilson
4. I have a great source of compost for $16 a sq yard.
5. I have over 100 customers that will be doing a 7 applications of compost tea program with organic matter. 50 will be doing power seeding in the fall and I expect (goal) to pick up 100 - 300 more this spring, summer, fall for compost tea apps. Sales so far are overwhelming (meaning lots of people want this).
6. The organic matter applications I do 7 times a year will be 6 pounds OM per 100sf with a 5-2-0 totally organic product. Since my organic matter application is 76% OM with 7 apps this is 32 pounds OM per 1000 over the year which according to Nutrients Plus is double their 15+ program. OM is food for the AACT with ICT I will also be spraying AACT 7 times per year @ 5 gals per acre with H2O @ 3:1 ((50 gals AACT with 160 gals H2O = total 210 gals - sprayer made for CT by rittenhouse. I have a great tea with 7 pounds of worm 100% worm castings per 50 gals (Canadian night crawlers) fed only peat moss. I'm adding at the end of the brew seaweed, humic acids, molasses and an assortment of other ingredients including a known ICT. So the biology and food will be there. the 5% N give this program 1.5 pounds organic N over the year which is solid.
7. When I get a compost spreader from Lawn Solutions (folks who make my power seeder - sponsor of Lawnsite) - I'm a RD person and will test their unit - (until then I do it with shoval and rake - upon request - $100 per yard). I will top dress with compost at the rate of 10 pounds per 1000 and I'm looking at using a hydroseeder to make a compost slurry in the future to make it even easier to get OM on the ground - unit I;m looking at is a 500 gallon hybrid unit from Turbo Turf.

This is all REAL world stuff much like what treegal does, that is being done and actually be implemented by my me and my company Barefoot Yards here in Louisville, KY. (www.barefootyards.com)

This is MY plan to spray CT and FEED IT. It is really hard to believe that getting OM on the ground as food for CT is not a priority! Lack of tools and discussion (with this specific matter) is concerning to me - I'm doing something about this and when the product comes to market in the next year from Lawn Solutions you ALL will support this by buying one. Another issue is how little we really know about the condition of tea as is comes out of a sprayer?? We know and expect test results out of a brewer but coming out of the applicator (a sprayer) we know NOTHING. We all need to step up our efforts and share what we collectively know.

Any any advice or comments towards making these types of programs even more successful or enhanced would be appreciated.

I'm sharing and helping with SPECIFICS lets all do the same please and grow this movement - Go GREEN.

[lawncuttinfoo]

2. I sprayed 25 of those lawns with ICT and had GREAT results - MYCO really works.

I'm confused, I thought mycorrhizae was a standalone product completly different from Compost tea.

[Kiril]

1296 sq ft, is the math of it, I believe, but find it hard to believe you would get more than 7-800 sq ft. 1/4 inch even, spread by hand, on grass is probably near impossible.

Agreed.....

[Elden]

Good post barefoot. Some of us that are new to organics need to see the number and amount of imputs. Keep 'em coming.

[Kiril]

IMHO, the is no substitute for compost. While getting a site transitioned to organics, I would try to get compost down twice a year (spring & fall). After that, you can probably get away with using it only when you core & overseed.

As far as tools go, small yards, shovel and rake, larger yards/sites will need real equipment (hydoseeder, blower, etc..). You can't be competitive if your taking 10 times longer than your competitor.

During the time of the year you need to apply compost, perhaps the gang bang approach might be your best bet.

BTW Barefoot -> that is a nice price for compost. :)

[lawncuttinfoo]

Which rittenhouse sprayer are you using? I could not find a sprayer listed as a CT sprayer on their website.

[Barefoot James]

http://www.rittenhouse.ca/asp/Product.asp?PG=1066

They also have a low profile tank so you can see out the back window of your truck.

MYCO is in Bill's ICT another advantage of using this product. You can also add myco to your AACT when you mix in the water. It will not grow out in the tea and does not grow until it hits a root in the soil - but this is one way to get it to the roots witha AACT soil drench. so you are correct it is not part of CT but it can suppliment and give you even more ammo to grow great yards.

[Smallaxe]

The point of transition is not a question of the lawns' transition so much as a business transition.
Heavy investment in a business that may or may not take off in a given area is foolishness.
Organic ideas have been breaking the bank for years, which is another reason it has never taken off.

None of this is really new. Except the teas, but I still say if you have to repopulate the soil every few months or every year something is not right. May be organic but not natural. That would be like replanting corn in the middle of Death Valley.

It is fine that many of you are able to do what you do. Newby needs to know what is absolutely going to get things going in the business. If he needs $10-$20K front money it is probably not going to be worth it.

Spread compost as effectively as you can and add milorganite through a standard lawn spreader, until..., you have a large enough customer base to warrant the investment.

[ICT Bill]

WOW great posts.
I agree that getting a great finished compost down on the turf is number one goal, the list of long term benefits is a long one.

You could also use vermicompost and spread it lighter. Barry Draycott sells worm gold by the truck load and has excellent results. I think Mr. Barefoot has about 500 lbs of it sitting in his warehouse, not for long though he'll go through that quick

The 2 basics of organic lawn care are Organic matter in the soil and beneficial microorganisms.

Nice brew there Mr. barefoot, yes our compost tea has lots and lots of endo mycorrhizae as well as 4 species of Trichoderma

The question about spraying CT without solid food there for the microbes, is you could, but your not going to have the long term results that you want. It will be better than doing nothing I would think

[Organic a go go]

Gotta confess some of the points coming up here are a bit distressing.

In the small-time start up world Im living in CT AND compost isn't a viable option unless I want to limit myself to 20 customers. Conceptually Im having some trouble understanding why both are even necessary. If Im mulching leaves and clippings back into the soil and using organic ferts shouldn't that be viable as well? Maybe not the best but workable?

If we're needing teas and yards and yards of compost then its hard for me to see how this is ever going to be more than a niche market.

[ICT Bill]

Barefoot, is using a bagged fertilizer and doing multiple applications to get organic matter in the soil. I think its not only doable but profitable too

I would love to see more input from others on options to getting organic matter down in a cost effective way but it is needed if the SOM reading is below 4%, it should be somewhere around 5% to 7%.

Some areas already have these levels and higher naturally, but I am not a soil scientist but I play one on TV

[Kiril]

In the small-time start up world Im living in CT AND compost isn't a viable option unless I want to limit myself to 20 customers.

Please explain.

If Im mulching leaves and clippings back into the soil and using organic ferts shouldn't that be viable as well? Maybe not the best but workable?

Perhaps it will be. The only way to find out is try it. You will need to establish a baseline for comparison purposes.

The thing about organic ferts that I have a problem with is they are not a truly sustainable solution compared to a locally produced compost. If you can get the latter for cheap, then your out of pocket costs and billing costs will be much lower.

If we're needing teas and yards and yards of compost then its hard for me to see how this is ever going to be more than a niche market.

Compost and/or CT, you may not need both. CT is a good way to jump start a damaged system. That being said, I feel as long as your maintaining an organic approach, your irrigation water is of acceptable quality, you provide a consistent source of food for the biology, and you have some patience, then you can skip the CT and just use compost.

I personally see no reason why a property/site that is 1 acre or less cannot be done with a wheel barrow, shovel, and rake.

[Organic a go go]

Im a mow and fert service, or trying to be anyway, and if Im looking at
doing yearly, and sometimes multiple, apps of compost then its going to set the bar a little higher for growing my business simply because of the extra time and employees involved. I agree that most properties can be dressed by hand, I've got the blisters and aching back to prove it but it is time consuming and difficult to time with regular mowing schedules.

Typically I haven't top dressed unless I get a lab result with very low OM but it sounds as though you guys are recommending it regardless of the level of OM. Am I misunderstanding?? Would you top dress a soil with
%5 or better as a matter of course?

[ICT Bill]

Its important to remember that although the beginning inputs may be great that you are trying to move to a system where very few inputs are needed long term.

Some of the companies up north that have been doing this for awhile, take bio-assay's in the spring and maybe apply compost teas 3 times a year. Those are the only inputs needed for balanced soils.

Meanwhile they are transistioning new properties to get to the same place

The cost and labor are much more up front but decline dramtically over time.

With synthetic ferts it is the same cost plus inflation every year for forever

Long term (4 or 5 years) organic lawns are cheaper

[Kiril]

Typically I haven't top dressed unless I get a lab result with very low OM but it sounds as though you guys are recommending it regardless of the level of OM. Am I misunderstanding?? Would you top dress a soil with %5 or better as a matter of course?

Yes and no. If your soil has sufficient OM then you can probably skip the compost and organic ferts and just go with CT as Bill suggested. However keep in mind, eventually your OM is going to run out even if your mulching your clippings. At some point you will need to add OM if you want to keep the soils around a given percentage.

When and how much you will need to do depends solely on the site and environment.

[Smallaxe]

You guys are right. It can't be done w/out a constant high level of inputs. lol. Too expensive from the jump street, but a "promise" of better times down the road. That is a deal killer with most clients so 20 customers is probably optomistic.

I thought the new generation of organics was going to make a go of it, but it is more of a confusing mess than in the 70s.

Mulch in clippings, leaves, and some compost if you can get it. Over time the soil improves, meanwhile spike it with npk if the color fades. People can afford that and will be happy to learn they don't need as much npk as the 6 week app. people sell them. Pretty simple and anything extra is gravy. Everyone here sounds like you have to start at the top.

Monitor the water and forget the 1"/week thing. When the root zone is dry - water it. That practice will make better lawns all by itself.

How does this work on Southern Grasses? I can't say, but if you are moving corn, soybean, and alfalfa from farm, to processing, to lawn, why not just stick with NPK?
As a homeowner that is what I would say.
Lot of money to throw food on the grass. Grandma would spank me good if she saw me doing that :)

[Kiril]

It can't be done w/out a constant high level of inputs.

I think your misunderstanding. It can be done without a high level of inputs, once you have your soil in good condition. This is after all the goal (low/no inputs) of creating a sustainable system, right? Does this mean every site will initially require high inputs? Absolutely not. This is why I repeatedly say you MUST make management decisions based on the site, not general recommendations.

If you already have a good OM% in the effective root zone of your plants, then perhaps all you need to mitigate historical damage is CT. The reason I suggest compost is because there are no start up costs associated with it (assuming you have a wheelbarrow, shovel, rake), and if it has been finished properly, will provide the beneficial microbes you need.

Mulch in clippings, leaves, and some compost if you can get it. Over time the soil improves, meanwhile spike it with npk if the color fades. People can afford that and will be happy to learn they don't need as much npk as the 6 week app. people sell them. Pretty simple and anything extra is gravy. Everyone here sounds like you have to start at the top.

I don't believe anyone mentioned a bridge program, however I believe most everyone here does not have a problem with using such a program (I don't).

Monitor the water and forget the 1"/week thing. When the root zone is dry - water it. That practice will make better lawns all by itself.

IMHO, this is the MOST important factor in an irrigated system.

[ICT Bill]

Smallaxe
I agree completely that there is always an in between point when trying to do best practices in lawn care.

So we reduce the NPK by 60% to 80%, that in itself is much more sustainable than 40 pounds of mucho NPK all of the time

I would certainly hate to see you get your a$$ whipped by grandma

I wasn't convinced about putting alfalfa meal on lawns until I sat down with Bill Saddler (a microbiologist and organic wine producer) from Bradfield Organics, he explained the carb's and proteins in that stuff that the biology really likes and it promotes mostly good guys. It may not be the best alternative but it ranks right up there. made sense to me, and it is as easy to handle as anything else. I'm not promoting them just exploring options

[Smallaxe]

... MUST make management decisions based on the site...


Kiril THANK-YOU :)

No one is able to learn about site management here. We get soil tests and follow the recommended procedure.

We are growing grass and if there is no problem there is no soil test required. If there is a problem AND you have exhausted all possibilities, then go ahead and charge these people for a test plus your time in monkeying with it.

As a professional I am expected to know things , not charge them for advice from a lab. Remember - it is grass we are growing and the planet, doesn't die, if we mess around with the soil to help the grass grow better.

I have no problem with all the meals being fed to the lawn, but as Newby pointed out not everyone can handle that compost for 40 lawns, let alone find all the meals. Let's think this through...what is the first best step for any one site?
or
Is it even ok to start out with baby steps on a site for site basis?

Answer : You need to apply, 20lbs./corn/soy meal/K. monthly- include - CT biannually - be sure - soil test first.
That is just to get started, (price goes down later). Give me a break.

WE think that not having everything, tested by science, is irresponsible for LCOs. Remember we are growing grass and most people don't have a fetish about it and don't want to waste alot of time and money on it.
After a few years, experience should teach you everything you need to know.

[ICT Bill]

Smallaxe
I appreciate your point of view, good insight on how you run your business.

There are a couple of companies (understatement) out there that are quite large and employ best management practices to insure profitablity of the company. Systems are put in place so that they are not only profitable but maintain a level of customer service to keep and expand their customer base.

They have set programs that are listed for their customers to choose from, for instance.
Renovation: We core aerate, overseed and apply the finest organic material on the market today.
Lawn maintenance:blah blah blah blah you get the idea

Renovation of a lawn or if we call it "transitioning to organic lawn care" option is one that the customer must choose. It is the job of the lawn care professional to understand the application and what products need to be applied in order to satisfy the client as well as make a profit for the company.

To exclaim "IT'S TOO MUCH WORK" is missing the point and opportunities for your company to expand and be more profitable.

Services are priced according to labor, inputs and profitability.

Let's not make this into anything else than what it is.

If the customer chooses to be a mow and blow customer so be it, but it would behoove you to get some services in their face in order to expand your business model and become more profitable

[Kiril]

WE think that not having everything, tested by science, is irresponsible for LCOs.

I don't believe this. I am a strong proponent of action through observation. Think of it like your wife or husband/girl/boy friend. The longer you know her/him, the more capable you are at judging moods, feelings, etc...

The same thing goes for landscape management. The more time you spend with landscapes, the more able you are to see and correct problems without needing to run a test through a lab.

Be observant, ask questions, build your knowledge, test when necessary. :)

That being said, I generally feel that you should at least do a simple soil test before establishing a management/fertilizer program for any site. It is difficult to know what direction to take if you don't have a point to start from.

Remember, we are talking about landscapes here, not agriculture. :)

[Kiril]

If the customer chooses to be a mow and blow customer so be it

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94529&stc=1&d=1196520372

[Smallaxe]

Bill, I agree wholeheartedly and this is the point that needs to be clear to those wanting to start out. Not everyone is going to be able to invest in many of the things mentioned here, the first year.
The basic starting point is what fits the client best and the amount of time and money to start. The only option we are providing - is giving people this laundry list of things they may not be able accomplish in the first year, so they do nothing at all, because the fear of failure.

We should be equipping people who want to try organics to think on their feet and start anyone and everyone on some kind of system that may just be a baby step. We always think in terms of 'optimum' and anything less won't fly.
We need a better starting point is all I am saying. Sorry if it seems I am making a mountain out of a molehill , but we are not building confidence in future lcos. We should be providing a basic understanding of what it is actually happening in the soil and it makes sense. Too much contrdictory info.

For instance: CT is to introduce microbes into the soil that SHOULD be there but were killed off. Why do we need to repopulate a couple times a year?
If they should be there, then they would build a stable population on their own as long as we are focussing on their food supply. I have never gotten a straight answer to that question.

Again sorry if I seem extreme, I actually am not :) but w/out body language I do come across that way when I am serious about something.

[ICT Bill]

For instance: CT is to introduce microbes into the soil that SHOULD be there but were killed off. Why do we need to repopulate a couple times a year?
If they should be there, then they would build a stable population on their own as long as we are focussing on their food supply. I have never gotten a straight answer to that question.
You are not being extreme at all, I actually appreciate the enthusiasm

The quick answer is - Disturbance

they come in many flavors and sizes, dog poop/urine for instance can change the soil. Flood, fire, long periods of rain or ice, chemicals, pesticides from drift, clearing trees, heat stress, drought, etc.
You get the idea

[NattyLawn]

Bill, I agree wholeheartedly and this is the point that needs to be clear to those wanting to start out. Not everyone is going to be able to invest in many of the things mentioned here, the first year.
The basic starting point is what fits the client best and the amount of time and money to start. The only option we are providing - is giving people this laundry list of things they may not be able accomplish in the first year, so they do nothing at all, because the fear of failure.

We should be equipping people who want to try organics to think on their feet and start anyone and everyone on some kind of system that may just be a baby step. We always think in terms of 'optimum' and anything less won't fly.
We need a better starting point is all I am saying. Sorry if it seems I am making a mountain out of a molehill , but we are not building confidence in future lcos. We should be providing a basic understanding of what it is actually happening in the soil and it makes sense. Too much contrdictory info.

For instance: CT is to introduce microbes into the soil that SHOULD be there but were killed off. Why do we need to repopulate a couple times a year?
If they should be there, then they would build a stable population on their own as long as we are focussing on their food supply. I have never gotten a straight answer to that question.

Again sorry if I seem extreme, I actually am not :) but w/out body language I do come across that way when I am serious about something.


Didn't I say at the start of this thread that there would be many different answers?

Well smallaxe, here in lies the dilemma of this site. Everyone is doing things differently, or may have some components that are the same, but have little differences here and there. Now, step back and think about this on the grand scale that is the organics industry. It's huge. With all of the different products out there, no 2 programs or schools of thought are going to be identical. You can do that on the synthetic side, but over here it's not going to fly. Too many options. Too many variables (gotta make the customer happy, can't spread compost, etc.) Honestly, I think it's great because we don't get pigeonholed, but some of the newer guys switching over or newbies probably don't know what to believe. I can only go with what has worked for me, but what I do now might not be the same as I do 2 months from now. While in theory, it's a great idea to have set standards, no one's going to go along with that 100%. And frankly, it hurts the industry as a whole.

[Kiril]

The quick answer is - Disturbance

they come in many flavors and sizes, dog poop/urine for instance can change the soil. Flood, fire, long periods of rain or ice, chemicals, pesticides from drift, clearing trees, heat stress, drought, etc.
You get the idea

I think this is where I have to disagree in part. Yes, disturbances will in fact impact soil biology, but the question is, is it really necessary to maintain a given level of microbes in the soil, or is it enough to let nature do what it does best?

If you build and maintain a sustainable system, the system should be able recover from minor disturbances relatively quickly without intervention. Major disturbances may take more time, but given you manage the system in a sustainable fashion, in most cases it will recover.

This once again comes down to the question of what is really necessary to maintain a landscape in an acceptable manner?

Some other questions to consider.

Do sites really need large areas of showcase turf?

Why are we building landscapes that need constant inputs and manipulation in order to maintain some semblance of aesthetic acceptability?

Are these types of (organic) landscapes really sustainable or are they just the other side (chem) of the same coin?

Is it really necessary to apply standards that are primarily intended for agriculture on landscapes?

Has anyone really established an optimum level of microbial activity in the soil for a given planting scenario?

These are just a few questions that I have with regard to the industry.

I have to agree with Smallaxe that organic programs can become overly technical which will effectively discourage some LCO's from even attempting a transition.

Is there a way to simplify the process? Perhaps, perhaps not. :dizzy:

[Ferti-man]

I am going to transition to organics this season. As I utilize fertigation technology to distribute fertilizers and bio support products, It has been quite a search for me to find a product that includes the organic support for CT all in one blend. Within a 100 miles of Denver, there is such a product being produced. I am going to go out and visit this facility and some properties where this product is being applied for myself before I jump all in. ON surface, it sounds good though and a few local people have used it with great result as well, though not through fertigation.
My main stress about converting is the unknown of how quickly and vigorously the turf will green up like when using NPK formulas of the past. They tell me with there tested properties, the transition is minimal. We shall see.
It is more expensive than NPK, but you use a lot less, so the costs are not too far off in the end which is another plus to the customer as well.

[ICT Bill]

If you build and maintain a sustainable system, the system should be able recover from minor disturbances relatively quickly without intervention. Major disturbances may take more time, but given you manage the system in a sustainable fashion, in most cases it will recover.

I agree with you, a comment I made on another thread was after a period of time little to no input should be needed.

I guess I've discussed it so much that I automatically assume that the existing turf is being transistioned and is typically ill suited to support organic practices

I have to agree with Smallaxe that organic programs can become overly technical which will effectively discourage some LCO's from even attempting a transition.
And a lot of the practices are steeped in myth.

Home Depot has tried to hire a friend of mine to put an organic video and training program for their sales people. It seems they are getting lots and lots of returns for organic fert. The comment made most is: "I put miracle grow on my plants at 9AM and by 4PM they have greened up, I put this stuff on at 9AM and there is no noticable difference at 4PM, take it back.

BTW he said no

We not only have to keep it simple but we must make sure that we set the expectations of our customers as well. Compost ain't miracle grow

[phasthound]

Bill, I agree wholeheartedly and this is the point that needs to be clear to those wanting to start out. Not everyone is going to be able to invest in many of the things mentioned here, the first year.
The basic starting point is what fits the client best and the amount of time and money to start. The only option we are providing - is giving people this laundry list of things they may not be able accomplish in the first year, so they do nothing at all, because the fear of failure.

We should be equipping people who want to try organics to think on their feet and start anyone and everyone on some kind of system that may just be a baby step. We always think in terms of 'optimum' and anything less won't fly.

Again sorry if I seem extreme, I actually am not :) but w/out body language I do come across that way when I am serious about something.

Smallaxe,
You bring up valid points. Anything we can do to make it easier for LCO's and new entrepreneurs to be more sustainable is a positive.

Let's take a look at it from how responsible people get into lawn care business on their own. Chemical applicators must learn a great deal about turf grass, pests, diseases, timing of applications, which products to use. They have to become licensed, pay high insurance premiums, continue training employees, learn about pesticide law regulations, etc. Fertilization is another area to learn about, or they can follow the 4 step program & turn off their brain and charge accordingly.

IMHO, compared to this, going organic (not necessarily sustainable, Kiril) is far simpler. There is much to learn, but experience is needed to become successful at anything you do.

[Kiril]

I guess I've discussed it so much that I automatically assume that the existing turf is being transistioned and is typically ill suited to support organic practices

Not a bad assumption. Never hurts to spread some compost out once a year either, regardless of a determined need or not. For turf, over seeding is an outstanding time as you kill two birds with one stone.

And a lot of the practices are steeped in myth.

I agree. I think one major drawback is the assumption that a successful organic program cannot be established without a bioassay. Granted, it certainly does help to know what your dealing with, but with respect to residential & light commercial I hesitate to call for one unless something is really wrong.

We not only have to keep it simple but we must make sure that we set the expectations of our customers as well. Compost ain't miracle grow

Absolutely true. If the client is in the chem mindset, then you will be hard pressed to convince them that over time it will be better for the landscape and their wallet.

[Smallaxe]

Didn't I say at the start of this thread that there would be many different answers?...

...While in theory, it's a great idea to have set standards, no one's going to go along with that 100%. And frankly, it hurts the industry as a whole.

I didn't want to give the impression of needing a set of standards, because I don't believe we should be pigeonholed either.

My point was that the standards being presented would have scared me off the whole organic idea, IF, I didn't know better.

Every lawn is different and every client is different. Organic soil building can happen quickly if you throw a lot of money at it, or slowly, if clients will be more comfortable with the baby steps and the lawn's appearance doesn't have to suffer whatever method you choose - on any given site.

I fully intend to test and research in the field every idea presented since last fall. Those are my baby steps. When I finally, run with something I'll have an idea where and when it works best. And like you said it will probably be different than what you are doing, and 2 months from now it is all different again.

The best thing about organics - it is virtually impossible to make a noticeable mistake :)

[Smallaxe]

Fertilization is another area to learn about, or they can follow the 4 step program & turn off their brain and charge accordingly.


Yes, just the other side of the 'chem mindset' coin, as Kiril stated. That was the basic point I was trying to make. All these apps - of everything - all the time - may not be right for everyone, in every situation. Thanks for saying it better.

Then, what happens if you do all those things and the lawn still looks bad, because of something not considered?
I agree organics are simpler, but I believe it warrants closer attention as well. Time that must be accounted for and paid for, because it is worth it.

[ICT Bill]

We use a little Chilean Nitrate in our product for green up. It works great as a foiliar

There are little tricks to use and still reduce the inputs to control nutrient run off and leeching.

Organic matter will suck these nutrients up and keep them for a long time, another great reason to get organic matter down

[treegal1]

look into a hydroseeder or hydrmulcher
http://www.easylawn.com/turfmaster.html
we have two units like this.screen the compost into it add water and let fly. just bring your broom it wont blow.
you can also apply tea with it at 20 gpm with soy meal, blood meal,sand, paper mulch(recycled),wood mulch,coffe grinds,horse gold,worm casts,any thing smaller than a pea will spread

drag a hose or shovel Sh*7 you decide
we can spray20000 lbs of fresh worm casts in 8 hours with 2 labors.and it goes on very even and smooth

[muddstopper]

Since hydroseeders have been brought up, I am going to add my 2cents worth.

I have in the past mixed and applied compost with my old jet hydroseeder ( similar to the easylawn that treegal mentioned),and my Mechanical agitated Finn. What I have found is the cheap compost, which is about all I can get my hands on, will cause tons of agravation in the form of cloggs. If you can tell what material the compost is derived from, most likely, it will clogg your hydroseeder. Also amounts mixed can cause problems, thicker slurries tend to settle out in the hoses if left not spraying, even for a few minutes. The amounts I was trying to apply is probably way more than you would want to use to topdress or just feed the microbes, and I was also mixing it with 200lbs of hydromulch, 50lbs fertilizer, 100lbs lime and 50lbs of seed. This much material and 7 bags of compost in a 600 gal hydroseeder will spray out as long as you dont stop spraying, but lay the hoses down for a few minutes and you might as well go home and spend the rest of the day cleaning out your hydroseeder. I havent tried just compost alone, but suspect that you could probably spray a couple of hundred lbs of compost by itself and maybe with some seed, without any problems even in a jet agitated machine. At any rate, at least experiment with your machine and mixture before going to somebodies lawn.

Now, with that said, the few times I have tried mixing the compost, I have had excellent results on seed establishment. I was looking at using the compost as a way to reduce or eliminate using fertilizers in my hydroseeder. I wouldnt recommend using compost in a positive displacement pump hydroseeder such as the Bowie, Turfmakers, or Kincaids simply because of the extra wear on the gear pumps. You could endup spending more on pump repair than you can make applying compost. Centrifical pumps are made to pass larger solids and therefore will last much longer before needing rebuilt or replaced. ( mine just got its first rebuild and its 20+years old) If I had a good source of really good compost, I would probably give up adding any chemical fertilizers in my machine, especially with the current prices of fertilizers.

Another thing that seems to work great in hydroseeders is powered humates. Humates pretty well turn to liquid in the hydroseeder and are used in such low rates that they should never cause any problems reguardless of which type of machine or pump you own. You can see the positive results from humates by the greeness of the lawns during hot and cold weather. As everybody knows, greenness is what the client is wanting anyhow. Humates, compost teas, biological stimulants, microbial innoculants, etc, shouldnt be any problem used in a hydroseeder, but it could take some practice to get the application rates down pat. Hydroseeders use much larger spray nozzles than turf sprayers. Compost isnt going to spray thru turf nozzles, so its going to be a eyeball thing for applications until you get the calibrations and nozzles figured out. It would be hard to apply so much compost or microbial innoculants to cause harm to the truf areas, but these materials do cost money.

[ICT Bill]

The applications that I have seen first hand with hydroseeders is with mechanical agitated Finns, typically the 675 gallon pull behinds.

The company that applies it also has a tree company and takes tipping fees from other tree companies, they dump their tree chippings as well as trees, the tree parts are run through large tub grinders, and they compost them for about 2 years. They have about 7 acres of tree composting, 40 foot high winrows probably 100 yards long each.

They run the finished compost through a screener and seperate it into 1/8 inch minus. the 1/8 inch minus compost is dumped into the hydroseeder at 1 1/2 yards per 675 gallons. They then add about 50 Gallons of AACT. This turns it into what they call a "slurry", seed is added and the whole mixture is sprayed. Excellent results, 3 to 4 day germination and 90 to 95% germination rates. The long term health of the turf is very good

[muddstopper]

Bill, the finn hydroseeders you are seeing are probably T60 units like mine, I dont think Finn makes a 675 gal unit. I am just wondering how much 1.5yrds of finished compost weighs? Particle size will play a big role in how well the product mixes and sprays. Most of the stuff i have tried is just the el cheapo stuff from Lowes and Wallyworld, etc. That junk seems to have more sand and wood bark than compost in the product. I will say this, once it cloggs your hoses, your done for a while and its hard to get unclogged. I once spent 7 hrs with a garden hose just flushing the material from my hoses. Which explains a little why I dont use compost in my hydroseeder very often. Still, If I could find a good source of screened compost, at a affordable price, I wouldnt hesitate to try it again.

Not trying to change the subject, but today I found a source of 15year old hog manure, for free. Several hundred thousand gallons of the stuff, if I hual it off. I am thinking about trying to setup a composting site and mixing the hog manure with the other composting materials. Probably use chicken poop as well. Not sure how to put this plan in action yet or even how to get started. Any ideals? I have the land resources and access to raw plant materials. It would have to be a big site.

[ICT Bill]

The operation that I saw was Pogo Organics in Mongomery County Maryland www.pogoorganics.com. Class act, excellent composter, monitors every detail and has all of the data you would ever need to back him up

Yeah the 1/8 minus compost is the only way to go

Mudd, I still haven't figured out where you live so I can head you in the right direction. PM me if you need to.

Start with the international composting council great folks great info

Dr Elaine Ingham is internationally known for her expertise in composting, look to her books and site

[muddstopper]

Bill, I am in Western NC. I have been meaning to call you, just havent gotten around to it. Did talk to Barefoot tho. Whats a good time to call.

[treegal1]

old manure is like saying you found gold in your tap water,
hitch up the old truck and trailer and load till it hurts. the worse the lawn the more "pig gold" it gets.please don't forget to feed the trees at the same time.
try a sewer pipe and a big pile to start with. PM an e mail and i will send pics of a closed system