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theother
03-11-2008, 04:04 PM
I am doing a bid on a deck and they mentioned they wanted me to put lights into the deck, like we do with pavers. Any body know any good lights that i could inlay into the deck. Thanks.

Pro-Scapes
03-11-2008, 04:26 PM
why not use decklights on the railings ? Evening star has a inlay lighting system for decks. I just dont care for how it looks. We use the cast deck lights when we can. Real nice looking light. We mount them at or just below shoulder level when seated or just below the top edge of the rail

theother
03-11-2008, 06:50 PM
There is no railing deck is only like a foot off the ground she wanted to do a paver pation but it isnt possible.

JoeyD
03-11-2008, 07:34 PM
I think this is where Solecki comes in and tells you about his deck light!!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-11-2008, 07:41 PM
I think this is where Solecki comes in and tells you about his deck light!!

The Nightscaping INTEGRAliter is both a dock and deck light, flush mounted and dark sky friendly. check it out here: http://www.nightscaping.com/integralite.htm#

This will not shine light up into your eyes... it is intended to subtly act as a spread light across the surface of the deck or dock.

I recommend it in raw brass GD-0402-BR

Regards

JoeyD
03-11-2008, 07:52 PM
right on que!!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-11-2008, 07:57 PM
Joey, c'mon man...did you expect anything less? :) You did, after all, invite me.....

Have a great day.

NightScenes
03-11-2008, 09:28 PM
The Integraliter is a surface mount, not a flush mount though. Not that I don't like them because I have used them but I would hate for someone to stub their toes on those things.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-11-2008, 11:20 PM
Paul... You mount them at the very outer edge of a deck or dock. In a dock application they are no more of an obstacle then a dock cleat. When presented with the 'trip hazard' question I always put it in the same terms.... If you are walking that close to the edge of a deck or dock, with enough momentum to cause you to trip over the fixture, then you were already going to fall off the structure in any case.

In over 4 years of installing these I have never had a client report one incident. They simply are located too close to the edge of the dock or deck to cause an incident. I only hear rave reviews.... and others seem to like them too, cause they sure sell well.

theother
03-11-2008, 11:43 PM
that might work how high are they, it only looks like a couple inches also how much light do they push. The deck is relatively small only like 16 ft wide and maybe 16 feet deep and its going to be like half a stop sign shape so i quess one on each corner would probably do, right?

Pro-Scapes
03-12-2008, 12:47 AM
I think the integra lighter has its place but just out in the open on a deck is not one of them. Trip hazzard. Are there mature trees or a structure you can downlight the deck from ?

Will there be any benches you could hide a light under ? Some pics or a sketch would be very helpful.

pete scalia
03-12-2008, 01:16 AM
You can get that fixture for half the price made from cast brass from the importers. That type of fixture is a classic style and had been around long before they called it Granolaliter. Nothing original there.

Lite4
03-12-2008, 01:42 AM
Granolaliter, I can see it now in all the NS books now. "Your light will include an 18" prewired lead, a 20 watt xenon bulb, alternate lensing options and a clear ziplock bag of nature valley bars for those extended length installs." You know thats not a bad idea, I get hungry when I am working sometimes. That would be a desirable option. :canadaflag:

Thanks Pete, I needed a good hearty chuckle tonight.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-12-2008, 10:01 AM
that might work how high are they, it only looks like a couple inches also how much light do they push. The deck is relatively small only like 16 ft wide and maybe 16 feet deep and its going to be like half a stop sign shape so i quess one on each corner would probably do, right?

The total height is 1 7/8", and the diameter is on 4 1/8". I tend to light them on 12' spacings for applications where I want subtle effects. For areas that I want to have a more even distribution of light, or to effectively delineate an edge I would mount them at 8' spacings.

Here is the spec. sheet: http://www.nightscaping.com/pdfs/integraliter_gd0402.pdf

As for the trip hazard, don't even worry about it... If you mount these at the very edge of the deck, and not in the way of foot traffic, then nobody is going to be walking around the edge of the deck within 4" of falling off. Same with a dock... nobody ever questions the 'trip hazard' of dock cleats, because nobody is ever cruising around the very outer edge of a dock... it just doesnt happen.

As for finding these from "importers".... well I have yet to see any fixture that comes close to this. It might be out there, but I have never seen it. (Please show me the products if they exist) To the best of my knowledge, this is still the only Dark Sky Friendly dock fixture available.

TXNSLighting
03-12-2008, 10:01 AM
No thank you Tim, i needed a great laugh!

pete scalia
03-12-2008, 09:04 PM
As for finding these from "importers".... well I have yet to see any fixture that comes close to this. It might be out there, but I have never seen it. (Please show me the products if they exist) To the best of my knowledge, this is still the only Dark Sky Friendly dock fixture available.

Oh it's out there but I'm not going to promote them. That nub on the floor is what was called a beacon in the past.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-12-2008, 10:31 PM
There is a big difference between a traditional beacon fixture and the INTEGRAliter. Lots of manu's make beacon fixtures; Vista, Hadco, Dabmar, etc... but they are glare bombs with 360 deg direct line of sight to the source. The INTEGRAliter is a DSF fixture and does not allow a line of sight to the lamp.

When positioned properly on a dock edge, it effectively lights the dock surface as well as the dock fascia board, allowing for safe traverse of the dock, a visible delineation of the dock surface, as well safe glare free navigation of a vessel to the dock.

The INTEGRAliter stands alone in these respects. It works pretty well on deck edges too.

pete scalia
03-13-2008, 12:31 AM
A lamp that close to the ground will produce a hot spot and a dead spot directly around the fixture. Not only that it is a trip liability.

ChampionLS
03-13-2008, 01:03 AM
No tripping here.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-13-2008, 01:10 AM
you are right Anthony... just glare bombs, or actually, more corectly glare bomblets.

ChampionLS
03-13-2008, 01:11 AM
These come more than close, and you won't trip and fall into the water. (OR snag your dock line on them.)

Made in the USA :usflag:

:drinkup:

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-13-2008, 01:13 AM
And in a jursidiction that has Dark Sky or Light Pollution regulations and by laws, you would not be permitted to install them. Not to mention... they might just attract aliens to that landing strip.

Sorry to hassle you Anthony, I just really don't like the effect of paver lights. No personal offense.

pete scalia
03-13-2008, 01:50 AM
Great job Anthony. I'll take your indicators any day over that unsafe object protruding from the deck. Can you just imagine an old person or child tripping on that nuisance cracking their skull apart and then falling into the water.
Thank you Anthony for bringing safe and effective products to market. When it comes to safety Dark sky can go to HE double hockey sticks LL. Tripping may be an acceptable risk in Canada. Here in the states it's safety first. Smarten up!

ChampionLS
03-13-2008, 02:17 AM
It's okay. I don't take anything personal. Everyone has a chance to introduce something creative and novel to us all. I'm all for dark sky enforcement, however these are not glare bombs. Ask Paul, he's experienced now. Lighting anything near the water is tough. Especially when you have those !@&$@*$!! gnats biting you right at dusk. The firefly lamps (yellow) will help deter those no-see-um's and green head flies.
-Anthony

Lite4
03-13-2008, 02:22 AM
you are right Anthony... just glare bombs, or actually, more corectly glare bomblets.

Ok, I have to help Anthony on this one. I have actually seen his lights operating in person. The pictures are very deceiving, they really just emit a very subtle, soft glow. There is not any glare like you would experience with an inground MR or equivelant because of the colored light covers that are installed and lower wattage of light. You may still not be a fan of paver lights but I just wanted to give my .02 on the glare topic here. I am sure it is just the picture that makes them look a bit hot and (glaring). Just like when we take a pic it is sometimes hard to get a longer night exposure without some "hot spots" showing in the photos.

ChampionLS
03-13-2008, 02:51 AM
The dock pictures are taken with a long exposure (about 10 seconds). Notice the shimmering water?

-Me

Pro-Scapes
03-13-2008, 07:56 AM
I agree in I dont care for the paver light but I also gotta put in there is no glare associated with them. I think the integra light is good for doc edges but I want something more subtle on decks. Before I would go with something like the integralite I would look for other means of lighting this space to make it more useable than just seeing the deck boards.

Moon light... reflective indirect lighting...Place potted plants with lights in the planters...

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-13-2008, 09:30 AM
The dock pictures are taken with a long exposure (about 10 seconds). Notice the shimmering water?

-Me

Ok Anthony. I am a smart enough guy to acknowledge that I don't know everything... and I hear my colleagues on here about the output of your product line.

So, how about sending me a sample? A single paver light, with a white lens (i'm not a fan using colour in outdoor lighting). I will hook it up and assess it for what it is.

No matter what, I will still not be able to install them on docks here due to Light Pollution regs. on water front properties (no direct up lighting allowed, all lighting must be full cut off) but they might work for decks.

Are you game?

JoeyD
03-13-2008, 10:47 AM
So James your saying hey Anthony please send me a free light that I will never use??;)

NightLightingFX
03-13-2008, 12:07 PM
My initial thoughts on the paver lights were similar to James, but I had a little bit of curiosity about them too. I don’t want to limit my self by being close minded – so I have also checked out the pavers. James, I think you will be more impressed with the colored ones. These pavers aren’t something I am going to use in every job but I think there are some unique opportunities out there to use them. And when that occasion comes your client will appreciate you even more. The fact that Paul has used them and had success with them reinforces my thoughts that these are worth thinking about. One thing I do agree with James on, when using these pavers is I defiantly don't want to create a scene that aliens or an airplane will confuse with a landing strip.
~Ned

sprinkler guy
03-13-2008, 04:33 PM
Take a look at the Hunza pathlight (PL-1). A little spendy, but very nice. Waht is beyond the edge of the deck? If there is a fall off, I would want something a little obtrusive, so as to deter people from going right up to the egde. If it buts up to grass or a planting area, then something with a very low, or non-exisitant profile might work better. Just my $.02.
Thanks.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-13-2008, 05:35 PM
So James your saying hey Anthony please send me a free light that I will never use??;)

Ah gee Joey, is that how you read it? I thought I was pretty clear. Not sure how you managed to twist that around. ?

I don't, and won't, specify a product that I have not seen, touched, taken apart and usually tested. I don't care what it is. If some manufacturer has something new they are promoting and they want me to use it, I generally ask for a sample, most are happy to provide one. I'm sure I am not alone in this practise.

As for using the pavers.... well I have never been fond of using unshielded fixtures of any type, be they coach lights, step lights, path lights, etc etc. I try to always stick with "See the effect, not the source." This even applies to low intensity sources. It comes down to how the eye responds to contrast in a dark environment. Unshielded fixtures (no matter how soft or filtered) tend to draw the eye's attention away from the intended object. Lensed step lights are the perfect example.... I always go for the louvered type that sheilds the eye from the source and directs the light output down onto the tread of the step.

Who knows, perhaps Anthony has something figured out that just doesn't translate well in photos... how will I know until I have seen it for myself?

Have a great day.

JoeyD
03-13-2008, 06:02 PM
Sorry James, I know what its like to have my words twisted into things they werent. LOL

pete scalia
03-13-2008, 10:52 PM
Ah gee Joey, is that how you read it? I thought I was pretty clear. Not sure how you managed to twist that around. ?

I don't, and won't, specify a product that I have not seen, touched, taken apart and usually tested. I don't care what it is. If some manufacturer has something new they are promoting and they want me to use it, I generally ask for a sample, most are happy to provide one. I'm sure I am not alone in this practise.

As for using the pavers.... well I have never been fond of using unshielded fixtures of any type, be they coach lights, step lights, path lights, etc etc. I try to always stick with "See the effect, not the source." This even applies to low intensity sources. It comes down to how the eye responds to contrast in a dark environment. Unshielded fixtures (no matter how soft or filtered) tend to draw the eye's attention away from the intended object. Lensed step lights are the perfect example.... I always go for the louvered type that sheilds the eye from the source and directs the light output down onto the tread of the step.

Who knows, perhaps Anthony has something figured out that just doesn't translate well in photos... how will I know until I have seen it for myself?

Have a great day.

If you were serious about his product you'd offer to purchase it. Anyone who sends you something for free is wasting their time and money. You don't do enough volume to justify that.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-13-2008, 11:27 PM
Others, who are much bigger, much better, more well known, and more professional then you would beg to differ.

irrig8r
03-13-2008, 11:31 PM
Pete.... are you trying to pick another fight?

James is pretty open and out there with what he does business wise... We've heard a little about the kinds of clients he gets, the size of the jobs he installs, all the tree climbing he does, what kinds of fixtures he prefers... that he works on a lot of waterfront properties, etc.

You on the other hand are a little more sketchy about details. About all we really know is you don't like aluminum and have a lot of cranky customers.

How long have you been doing lighting?
What else do you do?
How many guys do you employ in your business?
How many guys are doing lights and how many do other things?
Why are you always asking for details from others but not revealing your own?

pete scalia
03-14-2008, 12:35 AM
More lighting than you Mr. irri man,

theother
03-14-2008, 01:49 AM
Guys lets not get off into giant debates about whats better, each light serves its purpose. What I need though to fulfill my customers demands is a completely inset light so championLS I could use some more info about the lights in your pictures. Please let me know cost and where to purchase them as that is what my current customer wants, and will not waiver from. Thanks to all though for giving input and showing there product it was good to see all, as other options might be needed for later jobs.

irrig8r
03-14-2008, 01:04 PM
More lighting than you Mr. irri man,

Could very well be Pete...but I'm not interested in a pi**ing contest...

Still, you're evading my questions...

All I'm saying is come clean with more facts and figures about your own operation before you make assumptions or assertions, or ask others for theirs... it's only polite.

NightScenes
03-14-2008, 03:44 PM
I have used the Evening Star paver lights and would do it again. I had a client that insisted on lining her driveway so I gave this product a shot. To my surprise, there was no glare issue. Most dark sky ordnances that I have seen will allow some up lighting if it is within certain limits which this fixture would definitely fall into. The colors also allow the fixture to blend in quite well and defuses the light even more.

ChampionLS
03-14-2008, 11:47 PM
"See the effect...not the source" is nothing more than someones opinion. If the source is pleasing to the eye, then that statement is false.

I don't care who wrote it, whos book it's in, or who preaches it. There are thousands upon thousands of light sources that are seen every day. It's a matter of preference.

Accent Lighting is used everywhere. Anyone ever visit Times Square NYC? EVERYTHING is LED's, Accent Lighting, Color Tiles, Wall Washing etc etc etc.

The only "Source" your missing out on is the source of revenue by being closed-minded.


-Anthony

irrig8r
03-14-2008, 11:55 PM
I want to say something about the exception proving the rule...

But I was curious about the source of that expression and ran across this:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_201.html


Exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis

"The fact that certain exceptions are made... confirms that the rule is valid in all other cases."

ChampionLS
03-15-2008, 12:04 AM
I see these post top lights at every lumber yard that sells decking. You want to talk about glare? They are right at eye-level when your sitting, and they don't even use a frosted lens.

irrig8r
03-15-2008, 12:31 AM
I see these post top lights at every lumber yard that sells decking. You want to talk about glare? They are right at eye-level when your sitting, and they don't even use a frosted lens.

I agree. Not a good choice, especially when at eye level for seating, or next to stairs. They actually make grade changes more hazardous for older people whose eyes are slower to adjust.

irrig8r
03-15-2008, 12:37 AM
"See the effect...not the source" is nothing more than someones opinion....

-Anthony

BTW, it may be "just an opinion", but it's one that's shared by a lot of folks in this industry, and one based on experience.

Aesthetics/ taste are personal, but there have been scientific studies to demonstrate how the eye perceives and reacts to sources of light.

It's a combination of physics and biology, and can be demonstrated and repeated (that's why it's called "science" and not "belief" or "opinion")

I'll see if I can find articles to support my claim, but I'll bet you can't find any to the contrary.

irrig8r
03-15-2008, 12:59 AM
From an article on perceived brightness.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/vision/imgvis/perbri.gif

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-15-2008, 10:28 AM
"See the effect...not the source" is nothing more than someones opinion. If the source is pleasing to the eye, then that statement is false.

I don't care who wrote it, whos book it's in, or who preaches it. There are thousands upon thousands of light sources that are seen every day. It's a matter of preference.

Accent Lighting is used everywhere. Anyone ever visit Times Square NYC? EVERYTHING is LED's, Accent Lighting, Color Tiles, Wall Washing etc etc etc.

The only "Source" your missing out on is the source of revenue by being closed-minded.-Anthony

"SEE THE EFFECT, NOT THE SOURCE" is so much more then just 'someones' opinion. It is a principle of good lighting design. It is a rule, and a tool that has guided many designers in many different realms of lighting design. Of course you can choose not to follow this principle... there is a time and a place for not abiding by it.

The fact remains, the eye will always be drawn to the brightest object in the field of view. In landscape lighting I prefer to light the object and not have the focus be the fixture or source. Obviously Times Square has different constraints and goals and lots of competition for visibility. Last time I checked my clients do not live in Times Square. Last time I checked Muskoka was not an urban environment.

Perhaps Anthony has the holy grail of paver lights. If so there may very well be some applications for them here. I will never know until I test one and see them in action first hand.

ChampionLS
03-15-2008, 05:25 PM
I agree 100% with that theory. I'm not against it. All I'm saying is that a fixture or light that is considered an Accent should not be bright or glaring, or cause any inconvenience as compared to industry standard. Our lights are simply for accenting- not for the sole purpose of illumination. Our lights work best with other landscape lighting products as a system. We try our hardest NOT to perceive them as airport runway lights by using them in a random fashion or in specific locations. Our competitors still keep pushing the un-skilled method of quick-cheap-easy and tarnish what we are striving to educate.

We do have our new wall light out, which is a lot more classy and practical when it comes to standard lighting.

-Anthony

Pro-Scapes
03-15-2008, 06:23 PM
I agree 100% with that theory. I'm not against it. All I'm saying is that a fixture or light that is considered an Accent should not be bright or glaring, or cause any inconvenience as compared to industry standard. Our lights are simply for accenting- not for the sole purpose of illumination. Our lights work best with other landscape lighting products as a system. We try our hardest NOT to perceive them as airport runway lights by using them in a random fashion or in specific locations. Our competitors still keep pushing the un-skilled method of quick-cheap-easy and tarnish what we are striving to educate.

We do have our new wall light out, which is a lot more classy and practical when it comes to standard lighting.

-Anthony

I seen anthonys new wall light and I gotta say it is alot nicer than the integral piece. Its a sealed lamp. I have not seen the new vista one yet. I have also see Anthonys paver light and lit them up. Not really something I would push but they are a low level of light I would consider using sparingly in certain applications. I know paul said they didnt look all too bad.

ChampionLS
03-19-2008, 03:22 PM
Here's a close up of the Antiqued Copper Vignette fixture.



Does anyone know a supplier of solid copper machine screws?
We have tried sourcing these with some of the biggest suppliers in the US, and nothing. We might have to have them custom made.

6/32 oval slot head machine screw 3/8" long.

Send me a PM if you find any.

-Anthony

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-19-2008, 11:40 PM
Just off the top of my head here... I would think that copper machine screws would be a pretty rare item. The copper would be too soft to work effectively as a machine screw would it not?

Why not use brass?

Also, why flat head ("slot head" as you put it)??? There is not a more ridiculous screw head design in the world IMO. At least go with Phillips and if you are not going to countersink the body of the fixture so that the screw can fit flush, then use a truss head (no not a pan-head... check out the difference).

Regards.

NightScenes
03-20-2008, 08:51 AM
I would have to agree with the brass screw idea.

Chris J
03-22-2008, 12:21 AM
In this particular application, I would have to say that a phillips head would be most appropriate. However, with most ingrade fixtures the best screw head would have to be the straight slot, flat head or slot head (whatever you want to call it.) Simple reasoning would be for maintenance and cleaning. With the straight slot, you can simply swipe the dirt and grime right out of the slot and begin unscrewing. If it's phillips, you've got a bit of a problem to deal with, eh?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-22-2008, 01:29 PM
Chris you hoser :dizzy:... everyone north of the 43rd :canadaflag: knows that the best screw head ever invented is in fact the Robertson.

Robertson Screw
In 1908, square-drive screws were invented by Canadian P. L. Robertson. Twenty-eight years before Henry Phillips patented his Phillips head screws, which are also square-drive screws.The Robertson screw is considered the "first recess-drive type fastener practical for production usage." The design became a North American standard, as published in the sixth edition of Industrial Fasteners Institute Metric and Inch Standards. A square-drive head on a screw can be better than a slot head because the screwdriver will not slip out of the screw's head during installation. The Model T car made by the Ford Motor Company (one of Robertson's first customers) used over seven hundred Robertson screws.
AND

It was a lovely summer day in 1906, when traveling salesman, Peter Lymburner Robertson, was demonstrating a spring loaded screwdriver.
As usual, if a demo can go wrong it will, and Robertson cut his hand when the screwdriver slipped. It is not recorded if he made the sale or not but the incident did drive Robertson to invent a better screw driver.

Robertson developed the socket head screw which revolutionized an industry.
The Robertson's screw and screwdriver, the best kept secret outside of Canada, were born. Robertson's screw addressed all of these problems.

"This is considered by many as the biggest little invention of the twentieth century so far," he was heard to exclaim. His special square headed screw and driver had a tighter fit than a slot and rarely slipped. Robertson also developed a machine to make his screws (see photo at right)

The Robertson socket head screw soared in popularity. Craftsmen favoured it because it was self-centring and could be driven with one hand. Industry came to rely on it for the way it reduced product damage and sped up production. The Fisher Body Company, which made wooden bodies in Canada for Ford cars, used four to six gross of Robertson screws in the bodywork of the Model T and eventually Robertson produced socket screws for metal for the metal bodied Model A.

But wait. If the square screw was superior, why do you not find them outside of Canada? Why, if Ford thought it was good enough for his Model A, was it not good enough for the rest of the world?

There is a lesson to be learned here for inventors.
When testing the Roberson screw for their assembly line, Ford found that they could save upwards of 2 hours of assembly time per vehicle. Ford, wanting to protect his assembly advantage, asked for a licensing agreement from Robertson so that he might manufacture and control the distribution of the screws.

Robertson had expanded, by this time, into Europe. But his fortunes turned bad when the war (WW1) struck and his European partners turned out to be less than honourable. However he was riding the euphoria of a blossoming product and despite his losses in Europe, he felt that giving a license to Ford would not be in his best interest. Shortly thereafter a guy by the name of Phillips had no such reservation over licensing to Ford and, as they say, that was that!

The Robertson Screw Company was headed by Robertson until his death in 1951. It has grown to over 600 employs, including 120 in Robertson's home town of Milton, Ontario.

ChampionLS
03-24-2008, 01:18 AM
Just off the top of my head here... I would think that copper machine screws would be a pretty rare item. The copper would be too soft to work effectively as a machine screw would it not?

Why not use brass?

Also, why flat head ("slot head" as you put it)??? There is not a more ridiculous screw head design in the world IMO. At least go with Phillips and if you are not going to countersink the body of the fixture so that the screw can fit flush, then use a truss head (no not a pan-head... check out the difference).

Regards.


Yes, Copper is soft, but in our case it would only be for decorative purpose. We have a copper face plate, and matching screws would be nice. Think what happens when the copper starts to patina. It will turn that chalky green and darken. The brass will stay the same, becoming more noticeable.

Slotted head is the correct term. There are many head styles though- Pan, Binding, Oval, Flat, Truss, Undercut. etc. A slotted head is more formal than Philips when in plain view. Use your receptacle plates as an example. They are not Philips. Our face plates are countersunk so only the head shows nicely. STILL haven't come up with any. One manufacturer says we need Phosphor Bronze screws. We'll see if they come up with some this week.

-Anthony

JoeyD
03-24-2008, 12:22 PM
Copper screws have been impossible to find Anthony. Cant find them anywhere. Brass crews will weather though. It takes longer but it will happen.

Chris J
03-25-2008, 12:05 AM
Just did an all brass installation today using Kichler BBRs. Noticed that every component was all brass including the screws..... VERY NICE.

ChampionLS
03-26-2008, 01:49 AM
Thanks Joey,

Yea, it's hard to find. I just had two more screw manufacturers call me today with a big fat zero. Guess we're gonna have to make some. Well, that'll be down the road.