Apprenticeship training

[Scag48]

Well, back from 4 days of training. Things aren't quite what I had thought, I figured if I had made it that far, as long as I didn't screw anything up I'd make it through. There are 100 folks that come out for 4 days, my group last week of 50 and another 50 next week. They will be taking 50 out of 100, I feel pretty confident but it's not a for sure thing at this point. However, I feel that I performed well, learned some new control patterns quickly and got the hang of some iron I had never run before fairly well. They are looking for trainability and a lot of guys there had little to no experience running equipment. For someone like myself who runs Cat controls religiously to jump on a Case with 3 lever or Deere controls and get it figured out within an hour or so makes me feel good. I don't have much time on a dozer either and I feel I did pretty well with them as well, the D6R gave me a little trouble when finish grading, but I performed the slot dozing excercises that we were doing well. However, I still won't know for another couple weeks whether I make the cut or not. Here's what I ran:

Deere 744H, two lever, good machine
Komatsu WA200-5, awesome machine, everyone loved it, very fast and with the joystick I could really manipulate that machine
Cat 257BII, better than the A and B series but still needs more juice
Bobcat 763, junk, hand controls that require you to move the sticks back and forth like old school hand/foot controls, but the joystick tops rotated in and out to control bucket and lift control. I figured it out after a while, ridiculously awkward, even the guys who have never run skid steers had a hard time with it, what a pile of crap, controls aside.
Deere haul truck, it was older, basically a Bell, probably 20-25 ton, interesting to run that bad boy

Deere 310E, Deere controls, really awkward at first but I finally figure it out after being used to Cat controls
Cat 416E, what an awesome machine. She had 1,000 hours on her, Cat control wobble sticks, the cab is way better than Case and so are the ergos
Case 580SM with 3 lever, 2 weeks old, 50 hours on her. Cab looks super cheap, didn't particularly care for the loader control joystick but oh well, I could run her pretty smooth after 2 hours
Cat 436 with 3 lever, what a hoss of a machine. 2wd, old, huge, and the backhoe pins were loose, she'd sway all over the place after swinging past about 70 degrees from center

Cat D6RII with a 6 way blade and Topcon 3D-GPS, pretty new, 1,000 hours I think. Fast, nimble, diff. steer with tiller, had a multi-shank ripper, nice machine
Deere 650H's, we had two of them going all day, I got pretty good finish grading with them going slow, after a few more hours I could probably speed it up a little.
Cat D8RII, diff. steer with tiller, what a beast. Can't hardly spin the tracks or overload this machine unless you're a complete idiot, just drop the blade and go. What a blast, just about like driving a house. Loud as hell even with a cab but I loved the crap out of it. I ran it with the side windows open just so I could hear the pads clacking tough in reverse, what an awesome sound. :drinkup:

Had a great time this last week, met some really cool people. I think I'll be okay and make it through, I'm just nervous.

[stuvecorp]

How do you like the hydro. trans on the 200-5 loader? I was at one time bent on getting one, for plowing it was awesome just let up and it would slow itself down.

I learned on John Deere controls for backhoe/excavator and for the life of me can't figure out the cat/(iso?) controls. I should try to master it but now I likely never will. If you can get use to running different controls you will be more valuable down the road. Sounds like they have a nice mix of brands and with newer stuff that should make it more fun.

[Scag48]

The Komatsu was awesome, basically there's a dial where you can set your speed range infinately from 1-4 and a direction shuttle on the dash like any other loader. It was great, because you could get it to power down enough when hitting the pile to get her nice and heaped, then lay on the throttle coming back out and she'd smoothly speed up, no loss of material from the clunk of shifting and it seems much faster.

My backhoe instructor asked everyone before we headed out if anyone had backhoe experience. I don't have much time on backhoes, probably 100 hours, but I told him I was used to Cat controls from excavator. He told me that he was going to screw me up good because he had all three control types out in the backhoe pad, I agreed that 3 lever and Deere was going to throw me for a loop. By the end of the day and about 4 hours on Case 3 lever, I could smoothly run it and be productive enough to not piss of a foreman. Over time, I feel I could learn Deere and 3 lever proficiently. I think I scored good points that day as I did pretty darn well with the Case for having a lot of hours on Cat controls.

[Gravel Rat]

You probably have the most experience in the group so I wouldn't be too worried. Everybody excells at running one type of equipment better than the others.

Is this for a operating engineers ticket ?

I would probably go for a hydraulic excavator ticket.

[Scag48]

This round was just to make it into the apprenticeship program. Once accepted, I start 7 weeks of training in the end of April. I found out I will be able to get my CDL while I'm there before the law changes in July. All I have to do is get my permit, which requires me to pass the written exam and get my DOT health card, then I spend 2 weeks at the grounds driving truck and getting practice. They provide the trucks and fuel, trucks are way nice. They have a water truck, 2 or 3 triaxle dumps, and a nice Pete with a bottom dump to use for class A endorsements. Once I feel comfortable driving truck, someone from the state will come out and run us through a state approved course. Pretty sweet deal, nice trucks to test in, good training, they say even the most beginner of folks wanting to get their CDL pass with flying colors, the training is pretty good.

As far as the rest of the training goes, I'm not sure what's going to happen. I'm not sure if we will be able to to pick which group we want to get trained on or not. If so, I'm going to do dozer and backhoe I think, I want more time on 3 lever. Excavator I have plenty of experience on, I'd probably blow away half the journeymen, I don't need any experience there. I figure that's why I didn't go out to the excavator pad while I was there, they know I have excavator experience, I figured they didn't put me in that group because they didn't need to see it.

[RockSet N' Grade]

Scag...........I guess the helmet cam would NOT make points at this point in time? :) Glad to see you are doing it.........

[Mjh Excavating]

scag

I have to ask and not trying to offend you, but at your age what is plenty of experience? I'm not talking about tearing down apple trees or digging a foundation. I would like to know actual projects i.e. (bridge work, road work, quarry operations, pipeline work, large scale development work) just curious.

[Construct'O]

I agree at this point that the excavator would be at the bottom of your list of equipment to start training on.As times goes on some training working around utility lines and pipeline course would be a good learning curve as you finish out.

Of course me being a dozer guy,what was some of the things with the finish dozer part you did that gave you the most problems?

Did they have any kind of trenchers or crane there? Will that come later?

CDL thing sounds like a great deal,as far as i see it.The route your going is going to be a win,win,deal for you.

Sounds like you have a good chance making the cut.What will happen to the other fifty, will they get there chance just won't make it this time or what?

Good luck:usflag:

[DLCS]

I'm confused here. By reading your signature, I was under the impression that you already were a union apprentice.

[Fieldman12]

Sound like a good mix of equipment from the top brands. Sounds like they are big on Cat and Deere for the most part. What was you having trouble with on the dozer? I remember back when I started on a dozer. It really helps allot if you can talk to someone that can point some stuff out to you. Remember to always keep an eye on the blade and the more level your work gets the less you have to cut and move the blade. Just take nice smooth cuts. If it is an area that is really bad shape just knock the high spots of and keep working the blade down every pass until level. Remember to also keep your blade good and level side to side. Once you get the hang of it you will love it. You need to feel your work in the seat so to speak. Once you get use to it you wont even think about what to do. It just comes natual. I would say you have a very, very good chance getting in there since most did not have any experiece. I have found out that a persons determination will go along way in life. Kinda like the Tim Mcgraw song (how bad do ya want it).:)

[RockSet N' Grade]

Constructo........the other guys that get cut, from what I hear are moving to SW Iowa to work for some guy laying field drains :)

[Construct'O]

I'm trying to train too young guys now,which is probably going to be the death of me:).

I think fifty would be over kill for this operation:cry:

Plus Utah is closer:dancing:

Spring is almost here,only got an inch of snow this time:cool2:!!!!:waving::usflag:

[Scag48]

I'm confused here. By reading your signature, I was under the impression that you already were a union apprentice.

I had thought that if I had made it this far, I was accepted. Most guys thought that as well. Come to find out there are 100 showing up over two week period to have 50 of them cut. I figured I had made it, but I have one more cut to get through.

As far as experience goes, I have more experience than probably 80% of everyone there. All the guys in my group of 6, except for one guy who runs excavator and loader at a recycling plant, have basically no experience running equipment at all. One guy had some time on a dozer, maybe a couple hundred hours, but I think that's all he had experience on and it wasn't a whole ton of hours. Regardless of what I've done, I still have over 2,500 hours in an excavator and at least 1,000 in a skid steer.

My last day I was doing cranes. We had an old P&H 25 ton truck crane, a 10 year old Grove rough terrain, and a Sterling class 8 truc with a Terex Stinger.

As far as dozers go, I did pretty well with the 650H. The D6 I just couldn't get myself to hold enough in the blade to carry over, I got those nice rookie bumps trying to grade out. That machine is quick on the blade, I kept trying to second guess what the machine was going to do. I think if I had more time in it, I could figure out the speed of the valving a little better and get a little better with it. I basically had twice as much time in the 650H, because we had two of them, so after a while I figured out how the blade would react and how I could smoothly control lift and tilt smoothly at the same time. But, I did the slot dozing excercise well with the D6, trying to perfectly finish grade really wasn't required, I was just trying to go the extra mile while backfilling my trench. With the 650, I was getting pretty good with the decelerator. There was a lot of rock in the dozer pad, the 650's would spin out pretty good. The last hour or so I was on the 650, I could feel just before she was about to spin, throttle down just a little, lift the blade a little and throttle back up to keep on truckin, just like my instructor wanted us to do.

[Scag48]

Oh yeah, the other 50 who don't make it can reapply for the fall session. They also might call some up later in the summer if they need more apprentices and tell them that they'll get trained in the fall. Which would really be bad news for the guys with zero experience to be dispatched out to a job with no training and go to work. But, it could happen.

[bobcat_ron]

Deere Dozers are much easier to learn on than the Cat's, take a look on HEF about one dude who put a Deere 700J vs. a Cat D6K vs a Komatsu, the Deere came out on top.

[Construct'O]

So they never told you that you had to go another cut or trial then.Several are going to be disappointed then.I guess that is how the system works i suppose.To get fifty operators they start with 100?

Was the D6R the diff steer machine,or fingertip steer?Did you do much dozing with the 6-way blade angled? With it angled it would make dozing a little more uncontrolable.Especially when trying to cut hard dirt.

When finishing something i always like to leave it rough,with loose dirt windrows(small),but get it up to the grade you need it to be.Then when you do the fine grade.You have extra dirt in the windows to help carry with the dozer blade to use to fill low areas.Blading carrying dirt helps with the speed bump thing.

Start at one side of the cut or fill and work you way across the cut or fill.Until you get on too it,it is usually easier to use half of your blade to start cutting.The blade will fill across as you move across the fill or cut.Slot dozing is a different story.

It just takes time and practice,speed will come with practice,and like you said getting use to the machine is a big help.Funny but every machine be it size,brand,type will have a little different feel to it when your running it.

Somes will be dogs,other powerhouses,slow hydraulic,some fast.You see it all the time.You can take the two exact machines and most of time they will have that little different feel to them.Good and bad:rolleyes:!!!!! :usflag:

[Scag48]

To get 50 operators, they interview 1,000. Not sure how many applied, but 1,000 tested and interviewed, 100 attended safety and orientation week (last week) and 50 will be accepted into the program.

Like I said, I felt great on the 650H. I could do a pretty good job grading going slow, working material left to right. The D6 had diff steer, which helped a little if you wanted to shift material at the end of the pass, you can hold it in the blade alot easier. I think I could have had a little better go-around with the D6 if I would have had another hour on it.

[kreft]

is it worth going union?

[Fieldman12]

Construct'O is telling ya right when he says to have some material left to work with. Dozing is an art and if you perfect it they will be plenty of work out there for ya. Eventually you could step up to a grader then.

[kreft]

Interesting

[Gravel Rat]

Being a Catskinner is a lost art around here because dozers are not used much. It takes years of practice to run a dozer right.

As for being a union employee it may get you more work. A operator is good because they have experience and not because they are certified by a union.

With todays world everybody has to be certified to do anything so the companies azz is covered. He is certified equipment operator it is his fault.

It is getting so over regulated pretty soon you will need a ticket to certify you know how to use a shovel and wheelbarrow :rolleyes:

That is the big problem here in B.C. they have made things so frigging over regulated that it is tough to get trades training. Make the rules a little easier so you can get younger generation to be trained by the older generation before the old people start retiring or croaking :laugh:

You start loosing the older generation who is the teachers for the younger generation. What you learn in a trades/equipment training school is the basic skills. You learn more from a person that has been in the field for 20 plus years than anything else. The more people you learn from the better.

[Scag48]

is it worth going union?

Around here, definately. The pay is way better starting out, $20.71 plus vison, health, and dental benefits. Plus, the free training every year is worth it's weight in gold. The retirement pension is ridiculous, I think it's $5.75 an hour right now and they've been bumping it up $.75 per hour just about every year, that adds up really quick. The instructors at the grounds are the best, absolutely no doubt about it. They usually pick top hand competition winners to become instructors, the folks teaching the courses know their stuff and teach it well. Aside from the money and the training, it's like a big family really. They own the apprentices for the most part, the apprentices can't do anything without the training program knowing about it, but the program coordinators also work really hard to get the apprentices work that will teach them the most and give them the best possible chance of becoming the absolute best they can be.

[RockSet N' Grade]

GR........"make it a little easier?" That is plain, pure and simple, BS and is part of the systemic problem found in the mind-set of those that feel entitled to be taken care of or those who whine and complain that it's too hard out there. I would suggest to those of that mind set to get up off their azz, buck up to the reality of "what is", play by the rules that are currently in place and go make something of yourself. Life isn't "easy", no one is "entitled to a job" or certain life style.........it is that welfare state of mind which is a disease in itself that drags down the rest of the population in which it lives.

[bobcat_ron]

GR should invest in a big bag of "BC Bud" and start learning to just chill out.

[Gravel Rat]

I'am saying the trades regulations are so stiff and strict if you don't have the education of a doctor you get turned away from trades schools. Relax the rules and regulations try make it cheaper for people to go to school.

They keep saying their is a trades shortage well pay to train employees. Union jobs like LaFarge or Construction Aggregates are taking guys now that joined the union and they are training them to be equipment operators. All you have to do is pass the physical and other tests the company gives you. Once your done that you can go run loader for 10 hours a day. The most boring job is running the ADTs run from the loader to the crusher and back again. The operators set up sat radio in the trucks to releive the bordom. All you think about is your making 240-300 dollars a day work 5 days a week.

The average age of the operators working this area is 50-55 with operators 65 some are a little older than that. If there is no operators trained in 10 years from now what will happen ?

The equipment operator skills that I think will be a lost if nobody new is trained

Grader Operators
Dozer operators
Rubber Tired hoe
Gradall
Blasters (a big shortage now)
Lineman (not really a equipment operator but a huge shortage)

There are more but too lazy to list them.

A good grader operator will be hard to find 5-10 years from now there is only 3 grader operators in this area out of 30,000 people.

Dozer operators another one 5 years from now a good seasoned Catskinner will be non existant. Work practices have eliminated the use of bulldozers in residential and commercial construction even in logging dozers are rarely used. One of the logging contractors has a D8 with moss growing on it because it rarely gets used. A dozer operator is still needed it might not be a steady job but the guy can run other equipment too.

Rubber tired backhoe operators are hard to find you can't just jump into a backhoe and call yourself a operator it takes years to run a rubber tired hoe properly. Again work practices have changed once a backhoe was used for doing jobs now replaced with mini excavators and skid steers.

Gradall operators is a real lost practice they are not used for excavating and you only have so much ditch cleaning work. It can be easily done with a excavator which Ron has pictures of.

Blasters is a trade that is a shortage these guys can name their price. The reason being is the rules are so strict is isn't easy to get a blasting ticket. Some blasters are in their 70s and still working. It is hard on your body being a blaster also you have to have a alcohol problem :laugh:

I have done drilling and blasting you can see why these guys are built like apes.

Lineman (electric) are few especially in B.C. because B.C.s utility company screwed up. They never trained anybody they had guys that started in the early 60s-70s when it was easy to get trained. Went for 20 years not training people now its oh crap major shortage. I know quite a few B.C. Hydro employees.

A good lineman working for a contractor is easily making 40 bucks per hour when they are on overtime 80-100 per hour. To get a linemans ticket is very hard there is only one school in Canada and its booked up. Takes 4-5 years to get through training. You can't have a fear of heights so a lineman isn't for me I don't even like climbing a ladder. You can still get jobs as a trades helper/truck driver you get paid 28 bucks per hour but it is tough to get those jobs because eventually they want to put you through lineman school.

What Scag is doing now is good get the union to partially pay for the training or all of the training. The only bad part is you have to pay for the union dues.

Union jobs are not always that good, my job is union ya I get benefits but you pay for them off your pay check. My medical,dental etc is 300 dollars off my paycheck per month. My dental bennys are used up already I had to get some fillings done. When I retire in 30 years from now I will get 1000 dollars a month company pension. Yup something to look forward too :cry:

For young guys like Scag get your union ticket then get a job with the muni or gov't it is gauranteed employment. You may make less money per hour but in unstable economy atleast you know you will be working.

Last thing there is still money in growing pot but that is illegal so no thanks.