the best info on tera preta

[treegal1]

this was passed on to me by a dear friend and mentor,I was going to write my own piece by am tied up with my new worm beds"stain less". the site is not a garden site but it is up and has the 17 page novella of amazon dark earth "TERA PRETA DO NEGRO/ TERA PRETA DA INDIO".

THIS IS A HEAVY READ WITH NO BS AND ALL THE REFERENCE.

HOPE EVERY ONE ENJOYS IT
http://www.pacificviews.org/weblog/archives/002038.html

[ICT Bill]

Excellent reference, thank you very much

and good luck with your stainless worm beds (I wish I knew what you were talking about, it sounds.......UHHMM exciting)

[treegal1]

our old wood and metal beds were rotting away,seems that one "bug" gets in the wood and the worms eat it.so we are investing in some stainless steel beds 2x 48'x 7' with a conveyor and an auger to un load the casts.

it has me tied in a knot, welders and metal prices and time! they will last forever.

[DUSTYCEDAR]

GOING BIG TIME WOW everything is better when welded

[treegal1]

welded riveted and bolted, all 440 or 2910 stainless. the price of metal is killing me. it is going to take years to pay these off. the target waste input is 25 tons weekly.we screened one of the older beds and it had at least 1,000,000 worms in it. 60 tons of worm casts ready for the field.

[treegal1]

some things you just have to see first hand, 20 55 gal. drums full of worms is a sight to see

[ICT Bill]

I'll be right there............Scotty beam me up

If I could be so bold........and invite myself, please

[treegal1]

you have been invited, any time you want, we still don't lock our doors.

[Smallaxe]

this was passed on to me by a dear friend and mentor,I was going to write my own piece by am tied up with my new worm beds"stain less".

I envy your ability to be doing something constructive. We have yet another day inside with only the computer to keep life moving. Which gives me time to study this article, which is a good one BTW :)

Here I have a question that maybe someone can help me make sense of:

"...Nitrogen reacts predictably to the high carbon to nitrogen ratio of ADE, even though ADE soils may have higher levels of nitrogen than neighboring Ferralsols, by being mineralized more slowly and thus being less available to plants (Lehmann, da Silva, et al., 2003 and Lehmann, Kern, et al., 2003)..."

I believe this is saying that even though there is more N in the ADE (terra preta) it is less available to the plant. If I am reading that correctly.
In another place in the article it states that: banana trees and such do not fare as well as vegetables in the ADE. Reason being - they seem to have lots of vegetative growth, but little fruit. When this happens it is usually an indication of too much N at the wrong time of the growing season.
Is there a better explanation?

Also if charcoal is like an empty sponge that brings in nutrients and stablizes them in the soil; wouldn't it make sense that it should be "filled" before it is spread onto the lawns? Rabbit beans are 7% N so I thought of trying to infuse some charcoal with the elements of said beans and see how it works. My plan is to just stir it in together with water and after a while dump it onto a pile to drain, and see when it is ready to spread.
Can someone imagine a better way of nutrifying the charcoal? Thanks for any ideas :)

[treegal1]

someone read the paper, YES!! , it seems that you have a good handle on the info. loading char... before you apply is easy. go give it a try.hint... green plant juice.... we do some thing very similar and add it to our "top dressing".just use the "Beans" solo the small "Beans" should spread just fine on there own. or try useing the "Beans" in a hydro seeder then you got something

hope you enjoyed the read:waving:

[Smallaxe]

Oh yes, I did enjoy the read, thank-you.
So, you also 'load' the char. and liquid is how you do it. Char also adsorbs odors so is a great addition of any off smelling lawn ammendment :)

Worms have also played an important role of blending the ADE soils over the past 2000 yrs. and they are similar to the ' natural mollisols' of what we know as the cornbelt today.

I realize that topdressing is not going to build ADE overnite, but have you left any lawns to survive with no additional fertilizer inputs yet?

[treegal1]

shhhh we are in coast mode on some of the 2 year lawns. still get tea and some post but no fert or radical top dressing.now shhhh .....

[treegal1]

the tea we use if it had a label would be 1.5 1 1
and loaded with micro herd

[Smallaxe]

Once again when the universities catch up with the 'farmers' this may be the next biggest breakthrough since the mass usage of NPK.

The ADE's parent material was clay, but it works in sandy soils for you. That is good to know, because one of my experimens will be on sandy soils. When all fertilizers are banned from the lakefronts it won't matter and we may be able to prevent leaching in the meantime. Talk about sustainable :)

The once and for all soil conditioner.

[Tim Wilson]

I finally took the time to read through this paper, although I confess to reading it rather hastily and could have missed some detail. I found it very interesting but feel a little too much credence may be given to the 'charcoal only' without considering all factors. I did not notice in the paper a posting of the elevations of the terra preta beds or an average thereof. If they are mostly at a high elevation then my theory is out the window. I first heard of the terra preta beds about a year ago and formulated the following thinking theory. (I decided to cut and paste rather than attach);

"Re: Terra Preta

The Terra Preta soil regions are quite fascinating. After stumbling on the term on the Net I have done some quick reading to apprise myself of the surface information concerning Terra Preta.

It seems the current theory supports that this type of soil sustains carbons and nutrients over extended periods of time partially due to incompletely combusted organic materials (charcoal) and the interaction thereof with the soil microorganisms. The natives who
still have some bond to the history of this, maintain that if a minimum of 20 CM of the soil remains undisturbed by horticultural activities that the organismic activity re-sustains (re-invents) itself. This is not unlike a Winogradsky column which may provide a rudimentary laboratory example of what may be occurring here. http://helios.bto.ed.ac.uk/bto/microbes/winograd.htm

When one observes a map of the Terra Petra plots in the Amazon it is evident that there is a large concentration of them in close proximity to the larger trunks of the Amazon River and to the sea coast portion of the Amazon. http://www.geo.uni-bayreuth.de/bodenkunde/terra_preta/TP_map.jpg

I also read that the indigenous people (IP) had built canals lined with special shaped (diamond) stones which allowed the flow of river silt. Now, knowing (or think I know {TIK}) that there are certain organisms (purple non sulfur bacteria,(PNSB) cyanobacteria, bacillus {N fixers}, yeast/fungi, protozoa, etc. etc.) in pond/river mud and in sea water and knowing (TIK) that sea water also contains a similar consortia of microbes (which may interact beneficially with the mud and forest microbes to create a broader spectrum consortia) and that there are large influxes of salt water up the Amazon; I may hypothesize that the IP flooded large paddies (beds, plots) with this silt/mud salt-fresh water mix. In these paddies were large amounts of incompletely combusted organic material (charcoal) remaining from the IP's method of clearing land. The result perhaps was the utilization of the charcoal by the microbe consortia to sustain itself and produce waste which resulted in the production and fixation of bio-available soil/plant nutrients. The organisms would naturally sustain themselves at the depths conducive to their aerobic/anaerobic and dietary lot in life, with fermentation occurring at the lower levels providing nutrients for the organisms above them. The phototrophic microbes (PNSBs; Rhodopseudomonas palustris, Rhodobacter sphaeriodes, Rhodobacter capsulatus; would naturally be somewhat closer to the surface to absorb light but not too close to hit air and the upper levels would consist of aerobic and facultative organisms (cyanobacteria, etc. if I'm not mistaken). This would support the statement that the system re-establishes itself if no more than 20 cm is disturbed. This is not unlike the theory behind EM use horticulturally and what we see in a healthy old growth forest and natural plains grass expanse.

Of course at some point the paddy/plot would be drained in preparation for planting but the microbial consortia presumably sustains itself with less moisture."



If I were going to attempt some experimental replication of these beds I would include some tide affected river water/mud as well as incompletely combusted organic matter. It would be an interesting study to ID the microbes in the terra preta beds.


Salutations,
Tim

[Tim Wilson]

Apologies; It appears that my Winogradsky column link went dead. Here is a refreshed one;

http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research/groups/jdeacon/microbes/winograd.htm

Tim

[treegal1]

well said we to believe in a bio diversity and have scrounged different "herds" from river muck,distant manure piles, starters for compost, dirt from an old sugar plant in the Bahamas,soil from every where we travel, some bag-ed worm castings, terra cycle. the more the better,we even go to great pains to grow rottifiers and nematodes.

[Smallaxe]

I finally took the time to read through this paper, although I confess to reading it rather hastily and could have missed some detail. I found it very interesting but feel a little too much credence may be given to the 'charcoal only' without considering all factors. I did not notice in the paper a posting of the elevations of the terra preta beds or an average thereof. ...
Salutations,
Tim

[from article]

"...William Denevan noted that regular flooding in these várzea lowlands rendered them unreliable sites for agriculture and settlement, in spite of their often richer, alluvial soils. As he said, “flooding is what floodplains do,” often unpredictably. (Denevan, 1996)

Denevan went on to propose that the bluffs overlooking the Amazonian tributaries and the floodplains they’d carved out were the actual sites of the large, relatively stable settlements reported by the first European visitors to the region. He suggested that in regions where bluffs overlooked river channels that remained navigable all year, settlements were established on the bluff edge. In this model, crops were established both on the floodplain and on the more reliable upland soils adjacent to the settlement, which were then modified to support permanent cultivation..."

Another part of the article talks about a labor intensive activity of carrying the silt out of the floodplain onto higher ground. Other articles talk about the massive amounts of pottery shards also mixed in.

My theory so far is that:
the focus is on micro-pores for nutrients to bind and microbes to live and cec sites to modify. Whether knowingly or accidently, they were interestted in finding ways to hold the soil in place. As a gardener, trying to raise anything in the rainforest, can only be imagined by me.
But I TIK that I would give up on ashes real quick in the constantly wet clay soils of the region.

I have clay myself and I find it irritating enough that it is hard to enjoy the ground in the soggy spring melt and heavy rains. The solution was raised beds and woodchip walkways. I an guessing that fire was their chainsaw and chipper.
One day on a walk through the woods I found an odd colored piper weed. I noticed that it was growing out of an old abandoned campfire pit and was beautiful. The soil was too good to just leave in the woods so the Amazonian gardening geek (or smallaxe) brought it back to his garden and ADE was born :)

The interesting thing about bacterias and such, is that, there is one in particular that 'is' the nuclei of 80% of snowflakes. So they travel quickly sometimes, but, "why do they like it in ADE and what do they actually do there?"

I find it amazing that, the more we learn about something the more we discover its importance.
You bring up a very important point of focus in that once we find out what these 'new creatures' are and their purpose we might actually learn something new about horticulture again. :)

[treegal1]

in further reading i found this,
http://www.biochar-international.org/images/O_Neill_-_Bacteria_in_Amazonian_Dark_Earths.pdf

i will post pictures of our charcoal we made on Sunday. it is lovely, ranges from toasted to heavy char,made from mulch(nuisance tree).

[Elden]

Here's a good read I found.

http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/publ/GeochimCosmochimActa%2072,%201598-1610,%202008%20Cheng.pdf

I have a few questions. Does applying the BC raise the pH, CEC, and amount of O of the soil? If so how much BC would be needed to benifit say the top 6" of soil? And would or could it be applied at one time or does it need to be done in multiple applications?

[treegal1]

the CHAR we are using now we put down at 50 lbs per acre 2 times per year, pre loaded with some other things.

the pH seems to neutralize and cec goes up slightly with every app., in small increments and we have only tested 3 times. once before and 2 after. 6 moths apart, over 18 months.

we are experimenting with a, solar electric bio char retort. so far we have had great results. we are also trying to grind our char with water to help with the dust. at this point we see a marketable thing here,1) waste reduction 2) fuel oil 3)bio char 4)wood vinegar5) hydrogen gas 6)carbon sink.with the solar power the impact of this is positive (carbon negative) as far as we have seen. no one has said that thy have seen bad things or plants getting sick from bio char. and the data we collected shows a waste reduction weight wise of 72% and a hammer will break a 6" log with one shot.

[Elden]

I'm up way too late thinking about this. I read the original article for the first time, and I think I found the answers to some of the above questions. So from the numbers on the article under Making New ADE I ran some numbers, and here is what I came up with.

9.45 m3 of wood approx. = 1 Mg of charcoal after being chared.

1 Mg = 1 metric ton or 2205 lbs of coal

2205 lbs applied to 1 hectare or (2.471 acres)

43,560 x 2.471 = 107636.76 sq ft

2205 lbs charcoal onto 107.6 k = 20.49 lbs per k

20.49 lbs per k at 30 cm which is approx. 1 foot.

so for 6" you would need 10.245 lbs.

Sorry that was so drawn out, it took a little thinking. It that is way off let me know. I did round some numbers just to make it a lil easier.

[ICT Bill]

so for 6" you would need 10.245 lbs.

I was with you until this statement, six inches of what?

[Elden]

to amend the top 6" of soil.

it said that it was for 30 cm which is about 1 foot so half 15 cm would bee 6". I figured 6" to be realistic in a lawn or landscape setting because of the difficulty to get the charcoal down to 1'.

[Elden]

Would bone char have the same effect on the soil. I ran across some and it had a NPK of 0-16-0. What is or would be a good average of NPK for char made from wood? If no one knows could it be tested to find out?

[treegal1]

I dont think there the same, we need some here though.

[Smallaxe]

Would bone char have the same effect on the soil. I ran across some and it had a NPK of 0-16-0. What is or would be a good average of NPK for char made from wood? If no one knows could it be tested to find out?

The idea of NPK is not a function of char. Think of it more as a repository with lots of additional space for microbes to live and nutrients to adhere to. Also this repository has the added advantage of slow decay.

This quote was in another forum without a reference when I found it , but demonstrates the function of char, whether exactly accurate or not:
"1 gram of charcoal cooked to 650C has a surface area of 400m2."

Not all chars are equal and I personally do not think they should be because their seems to be a variety of things special to each type.

[treegal1]

its all carbon, the main benefit is that it increases the CEC and binds NPK into the soil. it also has a surface area 100 times greater than sand.it can also influence the rate that minerals available in the soil regardless of the soils parent material. hope I said that correctly:laugh:

[Smallaxe]

its all carbon, the main benefit is that it increases the CEC and binds NPK into the soil. it also has a surface area 100 times greater than sand.it can also influence the rate that minerals available in the soil regardless of the soils parent material. hope I said that correctly:laugh:

With all my research I have come across across a 'statement' that says:

"...pine char actually reduces CEC". [as opposed to oak which works well]

Remember Nicholai Tesla?
Thomas Edison was "The Man" and Tesla's ideas never were pursued?

Do you think it is true that "pure char" [high temp] is extrordinary in CEC because of the high carbon content - regardless - of where the char comes from?

Don't mean to put you on the spot. :)
I just value your opinion.

[treegal1]

thanks, we value yours.

the higher temps are where its at in japan, they use ultra high heat 1500 F. they also have white char. we dont know what it is yet.

we are from the school of diversity, the more different char temps the better. some of the things we have read say that there should be partly pyrolyzed char. the ADE we had sent from Cali Col. has some char post and some hard char in it. we are doing some test with our own char now. how long to pyrolyze and at what temps. our first burn was messy. we think we have it sorted now. if we get a few more good burns we are going to make a 40 cubic foot retort next. so far in the field we are generating some interesting results. we even did some trees with a NPK with char and NPK alone. so far the char is blowing away the other groups, control and NPK alone.

btw the test trees will never see the sky, they are just test trees, invasive types

[treegal1]

Ok called bosai guru, good thing its late here, its 11:00 am there. He berated me, admonished me, tore me down for being dumb and American. then said he loves me. and sent me this, its article # 4
http://acer.meisei-u.ac.jp/doc/acernews3/index_en.html

I am glad he is still alive and able to get mad, he is dirt old.

he also said no pine char, bad voodoo or some thing, he will e mail me

[Smallaxe]

thanks, we value yours.

the higher temps are where its at in japan, they use ultra high heat 1500 F. they also have white char. we dont know what it is yet.

we are from the school of diversity, the more different char temps the better. some of the things we have read say that there should be partly pyrolyzed char. the ADE we had sent from Cali Col. has some char post and some hard char in it. we are doing some test with our own char now. how long to pyrolyze and at what temps. our first burn was messy. we think we have it sorted now. if we get a few more good burns we are going to make a 40 cubic foot retort next. so far in the field we are generating some interesting results. we even did some trees with a NPK with char and NPK alone. so far the char is blowing away the other groups, control and NPK alone.

btw the test trees will never see the sky, they are just test trees, invasive types

When you say, npk with char and npk alone, you are referring to inocculating the fresh char with synthetic and/or organic npk?
I come across the idea of inocculating the new char very seldom. Lately it has been recognized that the ADE char was likely innoculated with manure.

I would be interested to see the settup you have for making char. I have been running a few ideas around in my head , but no time to really experiment.

[ICT Bill]

Smallaxe, It sounds like you need to buy a ticket to Florida

I am doing some, not so scientific, anecdotal testing with inoculated char. We inoculate it by soaking it in our product and then I am adding to soil and planting annuals, veggies and turf. I'll take pictures as the summer goes on

[DeepGreenLawn]

ok, I tried to read the first paper in the first post and after the first paragraphs I got my first headache.

Thought I'd keep the first's going.

[Elden]

I have been thinking about doing the same thing Bill. I want to build a char processor, to make it into a liquid. A holding unit, a grinder, and a pump to circulate it. Then you could use the same holding unit to brew your tea in. Then the char can be food for the herd.

[treegal1]

we are ahead of ya,

point 1, char floats
point 2 , once dry its dusty.
and this is the kicker, its BLACK.

all these things are in the fixed box know. we have found how to add it to soil with out getting it every where. after messing with a garbage disposal we have a new custom tool/grinder. and adding it to tea... eh bring a hose to wash with.

we even have the smoke taken care of, a cigar is more noticeable now.we are even working on a trailer mounted unit, although it is in the drawing stages.

FYI use sand as a gasket.

[Smallaxe]

Elden,
Char is not 'food' for microbes so much as it is a 'home' for microbes.

Distribution of char, in liquid form, is an interesting idea :)

Bill. I was in florida last winter and hope to be there again this winter. It was like walking on Mars with the 'flora culture shock'. 32 degrees F. killing grass is freaky!!! Composted materials disappearing in the sand as quickly as they beak down - even more bizarre. The warm Georgia clay is definately another point of interest, but I must say that char is my chief research project at the moment.

I hear what you are saying about the inocculating (char) with your products. ...One of the things I intend to do is spray a bunch of 'good char' with AACT and see what is happening 3 years from now.

"The new frontier is in the smoldering pits of ---- :) Or high temp infernos."
Please keep us up to date on the discoveries from your 'unscientific' findings.

[Elden]

Guess I need to go back and read the whole paper again. I thought that the char acted like compost in that it fed them. When microbes feed on organic matter they consume the carbon and what ever other elements. Why would they not consume the char? Trees produce carbohydrates, would that be eliminated as a result of the burning? If not wouldn't the carbs. act like molasess in a tea mix?

Help me understand.

[Smallaxe]

From what I have been able to gather - pyrolysis 'converts' the elements [or reduces the basic elements] into carbon. Carbon content, is the essence of what TP is all about.
It is a young science and I really don't think anyone is sure what is sure what the true deal is.

[treegal1]

¡Oiga, por favor! Permítame presentarle a...hoy

[Smallaxe]

Today is a new day with a new idea. 500 AD revisitted. Nuevo Dias?

[JDUtah]

So the organic forum is increasingly peaking my interest.

I'm a young LCO (23) and am pretty focused on building my infant Lawn Care Business. Mowing, bed maintenance, sprinkler repair, and dare I say chemical fertilizer and herbicides.

Thing is, my Grandpa is the one that cultivated my passion for plants, green, and gardens. Back when I was 10 he bought me a couple year subscription to the Organic Gardening magazine. Seems he thought I would read them after I found his old issues in a box and stuck my nose right in.

So, I have peeked in this forum every now and then and am always pleased with what I find. Especially the degree of science that is discussed here. I appreciate all of your interest and work.

Being located in northern Utah I have wondered how well things would apply here as compared to back east.

Like that article mentioned about native plants in the northern Midwest preferring acidic soil, I am not sure how I relate. I want to research more about the soil out here, and how the emerging Organic Techniques can be applied but haven't really had the time.

I did go as far as to register with ICT organics to buy some compost tea and try it out here. Time restraints are keeping me from researching and playing with my own compost tea's at this time.

It appears that on my mothers property the topsoil was pushed to the back and the fill dirt left to her front lawn. The back has always responded to fertilizer(chemical) better and seems to be more drought tolerant.

The idea was to spread some compost over the front and treat it with the ICT compost tea, and see what happens. Part of the reason I haven't yet is that the ideas are still evolving and I feel I want a little more before I try it out.

For instance, I read core aeration was developed for golf greens. The idea was to remove the plugs, rake them off and fill the holes with sand. I have never really understood golf, and this is another example. :)

Well I was playing with the idea to do something similar to the golfers trick but instead of sand, rake compost over/into the holes. Then I was going to treat it with the tea.

Well now this article and thread adds a whole new dimension. Maybe mix some char in with the compost? Spread and then tea bath?

Lol the questions begin to flow in the mind, and maybe I need to spend more time in the forum. But if any of you want to chime in and help a youngin' out, I appreciate it.

Any suggestions to get me started? I think the main thing is I should just start. Hopefully time becomes more available. Yet another reason to hire. (I'm excited for that)

So, back to the article and subject of the thread. As I was reading I couldn't help but wonder about something I learned in elementary school. The Yellowstone fire. The whole idea that the forest had gone 'dormant' and plants weren't really germinating etc. They thought the fire destroyed it but after learned it was more of a rebirth. Since then controlled burns have been part of the national forest program. Could the benefits of char be playing a role here without us even knowing it? Seems like it could to me.

Do you think rain can leach the char into the soil enough after a wildfire for it to have a significant impact on the soil biology?

I'm ignorant here too but don't redwood seeds need fire to germinate or something like that? Could char or the increased beneficial guys play a role? I don't know.

Ok, back to me. I didn't really get the process for manufacturing char. Can I use ashes from a/several fire pits or do I need to use a more involved process? I'm not sure how I feel about the next question but am interested in your answers both morally and applicably. Does the char need to be from plant mass? Reason I ask is there is a dead animal incineration plant in a neighboring county and the thought came maybe to use that? It might even have increased levels of calcium. Once again, I am not sure how I feel about that question and for now it isn't being asked seriously, but I wonder what you guys think.

And then the questions come of how much etc? Maybe I jump on the experimenting wagon with you all and see what happens. I'm almost there though, and I can tell it's going to be fun. Thanks guys! you're all awesome!

I need some sleep!

[treegal1]

lots of questions in that post. i think that the answer is, yes, yes you can. and how to start, i think you just did. next step lay down some tea and stop the NPK inputs. soil is the foundation of organic gardening. just your interest says it all. good luck.

[Smallaxe]

If you are going to core aerate and you have AM fungus to spray I would think you would want to spray into the holes before, the compost and/or char. AM fungi live in the root zone.
Otherwise switching from high octane synthetics to low maintenance organics is as simple as switching. A little compost , a little sugar, a little milorganite along with your tea is probably good for most lawns that you can leave the clippings on.

You may or may not need alot of stuff to put the soil right, and good cultural practices over time should help any soil.

[treegal1]

hey AXE why sugar and not molasses or beet pulp. is it location?? the molasses have some micro nutrients and iron

[treegal1]

JD, the bone char is great, but not the same as wood char. 2 different things.wood ash and char also are 2 very different things. both good in the correct setting. don't take this wrong, but try google, just ask away. for instance" what is wood ash" and "what is charcoal" for ease of search try adding the "wiki" heading or after the question.

any thing nature gives is good, you just got to find out how its used and what you have. keep the questions coming. your on the path now!!

[Smallaxe]

JD, the bone char is great, but not the same as wood char. 2 different things.wood ash and char also are 2 very different things. both good in the correct setting. don't take this wrong, but try google, just ask away. for instance" what is wood ash" and "what is charcoal" for ease of search try adding the "wiki" heading or after the question.

any thing nature gives is good, you just got to find out how its used and what you have. keep the questions coming. your on the path now!!

Well said. Those are basic important points to build an understanding on.

Actually, I am using beet sugar. I just have to take the time to go to town and see what the co-op has for molasses and how much it will be.
Now is that sulfered or unsulfered? for grass.

[morlawn]

I am in the process of developing a bio mix for application with a hydroseeder. Just applied a mix of 60 lbs. charcoal fines, 60 lbs. alfalfa pellets , 30 lbs. cgm, molasses, 6lbs. sop and a locally produced biological concentrate. Used ascorbic acid to de-chlor. All this on 3000 sq. ft. I will monitor the results and hopefully mow a lot. I was also under the impression the charcoal fines provide a safe home for the bacteria in the mix. The char. fines are from a charcoal plant that bagged them for me and are nothing special.

[treegal1]

that sound like a winning brew, how chunky is it.

[morlawn]

Treegal, was pretty bad, kept plugging my nozzle with alfalfa pellets and chunks of charcoal. Need to use alfalfa meal, but I can't seem to find it. I guess I also need to screen my charcoal fines, but definitely need to refine my process if I'm ever going to make any money at this.

[ICT Bill]

morlawn, I love the out of the box thinking, why not just put your finger over the end of the hose. I wouldn't think that you would need a sprayer for that application. Sounds like a great mix, I'm only 2000 miles away come trial it over here

Look at hydroseeders, it sound like you are trying to spray a pretty heavy mix, they can give you a good example of the set up

Can't find alfalfa meal in Kansas, HHMMM??? I would think you are surrounded by it

Char is a process of low oxygen and long burn times, kind of a creeping burn if you will. large compost piles catch on fire sometimes and burn for months or even years.

The amazonians made a big pile and covered it with dirt so that little air got in, the soils have been in use for 7000 years with NO fertilizer inputs. If you were to put a microscope on the carbon it ia a home for all of the microbes and a food

[morlawn]

ICT Bill, its hard to put my fingers over the end of a 1.25 inch hose and those chunks would hurt. I am using a small, Finn hydroseeder, so I think my equipment is adequate. The mix was actually quite liquid and I wanted to use a fan-type nozzle for dispersal. Most alfalfa now is in the pellet form, and the product I used came from up in Nebraska, so other than buying alfalfa hay locally, that's my only option. I could use a soak time on the pellets to break them down. I appreciate the responses, as people with more experience than I, give valuable advice.

[NattyLawn]

For instance, I read core aeration was developed for golf greens. The idea was to remove the plugs, rake them off and fill the holes with sand. I have never really understood golf, and this is another example. :)

Well I was playing with the idea to do something similar to the golfers trick but instead of sand, rake compost over/into the holes. Then I was going to treat it with the tea.


I need some sleep!

You can aerate and fill in the holes with whatever you want. I'd probably soil test the lawn first, and then go to work. We have a newer lawn with compacted, heavy clay topsoil. It wasn't responding well, so the customer aerated and we came in with raw leonardite (pre-cursor to humate), BioSource (a granular compost tea) and a heavy rate of 4-3-1. Tea was applied a few weeks later and the lawn looked great last fall and this spring.

They do this on the tree side as well (vertical mulching), but compressed air is blown in a circular pattern around the tree, and then soil amendments are filled in the holes.

I'm not familiar with char, or the differences between char, charcoal and wood charcoal, but I did read something recently about charcoal not being good for soil humus. I could be wrong though.

[Smallaxe]

Char is good for bad soils, not necessarily good for high OM soils. Plants are only going to grow at their maximum potential.
The other important aspect is the durability of the char. Maintaining the fertility over a millenia or 2 is the essence of its mystery. Truth is no one is really sure about anything relating to char.
There are a few good people around the world testing various ideas, but too early to claim anything for sure.

[treegal1]

Bill, we have a different take on char, pyrolysis is with out air or oxygen. and it can take place in just minutes.or take as long as you want.

one think i know for sure after an all day and nite run of our newest toy, this is going to be big.

the new retort system can char 30 yards of bio mass(wood chips)in 22 hours. ready for the field.

[Elden]

I found a place that has pre ground char you can buy in bulk (hardwood, coconut hull, or a special ag. mix. PM if you want the site.

[treegal1]

thanks, we are sitting on some real nice char now. still warm LOL. the best part, the 36 tons start weight is now 8 and it is lovely looking. and the dump savings, 39$ per ton in my town. we made that dump fee for watching a fire.

the new retort is jamin, we will re fire it again soon as we have a mountain of waste again, it seems like as soon as its really going your out of wood waste.

[JDUtah]

Thanks for the input everyone. It's been busy so I haven't checked in recently. Camping over the weekend can do that to ya. But it was needed. :)

I started reading about char and ash. Interesting, and a lot more to learn. I also got to searching for good soil testing labs (with an organic persuasion) and come to find out I have one not even 2 miles away. Anyone ever heard of Albion? Ever used their stuff? They even have a line of organic certified minerals etc.

Along with soil tests, they also test nutrients found in the plant leaves themselves to determine absorption. So for right now I might get the tests done. Maybe not use their product right away and try the plug, compost, char (test depending), and then tea... let it work its magic and test later in the season. See what improves and learn learn learn. :) I might incorporate their stuff though.

My compost is made at our local green waste plant. I imagine it isn't too old as they ran out recently and are waiting for the next batch to finish. I haven't talked to the lab yet. Would you suggest I get the compost tested also, to know what it will add to the soil? (I don't know if the green waste plant has specs on it already)

Thanks again.