Crunching the numbers (there is no way organic costs =or< synthetic costs)

[lawncuttinfoo]

For all of the people who are saying, "I switched over to organic and my customers don't know since my costs are the same"

Please explain in detail.

Go for it. Let's see some figures. :)

[ICT Bill]

I can speak for beneficial microorganism or compost tea part

Our compost tea has an NPK of 2-0-2 with micronutrients, we claim 0.1% iron on the label, mycorrhizae, trichoderma, Mycorrhizae Helper Bacteria, at a cost of $0.67 per 1000 square feet at list price

some one correct me if I'm wrong but I believe nutrients plus 4-3-3 comes in just over $1.50 per 1000 square feet treated for tractor trailer load commitments

I am unsure of the Bradfield Organics cost for their bagged 4-3-3, I'll try to find out

$0.67 + $1.50 = $2.17 per 1000 at list price

this however is not an apples to apples as it does not include spot spraying for weeds

[Elden]

I've been reading the organic site for a while and haven't heard anyone say that you only have to go to a yard two times a year if you treat it organically.

I think your price is low. For a 10,000 sq ft lawn your price would only be at $230 for the year. The company I used to work for had a synthetic program and they would charge $650/yr for a 6 application program on a 8-10 k lawn. All be it things are probly a little different in Fl.

Personally I think there would have to be more than two applications. When I start my program next year I will probly be doing a 8-10 visit program. May seem like alot but I want to be able to catch any problems and resolve them quickly. Going every 6 months there's no telling what could happen in that time span.

[lawncuttinfoo]

I can speak for beneficial microorganism or compost tea part

Our compost tea has an NPK of 2-0-2 with micronutrients, we claim 0.1% iron on the label, mycorrhizae, trichoderma, Mycorrhizae Helper Bacteria, at a cost of $0.67 per 1000 square feet at list price

some one correct me if I'm wrong but I believe nutrients plus 4-3-3 comes in just over $1.50 per 1000 square feet treated for tractor trailer load commitments

I am unsure of the Bradfield Organics cost for their bagged 4-3-3, I'll try to find out

$0.67 + $1.50 = $2.17 per 1000 at list price

this however is not an apples to apples as it does not include spot spraying for weeds

Ya i'm only talking pricing, so whatever applications you need to make it work.

Oh sorry I am refering to single bag pricing, (nutriants plus has a 1 pallet 1 ton min.) But lets go with it.

For your $2.17 number, how many applications of this per year? Also remember to figure in brewing labor (Let's say $0.40 per 1K that would be $6 for a 5 gal brew to cover 15,000 sq ft)

After all my costs are figured, my organic program comes in at an average 1.8 times my synthetic price.

[ICT Bill]

Lawn cutting info
There is no brew time with our product you simply add Instant Compost Tea to water in the field and spray immediately. Its our 1-2-3 Mix & Spray system

These are difficult apples to compare to each other. The organic program is trying to raise Soil Organic Matter to 5% to 7%, once this level is reached there are no more inputs needed until soil testing shows that the SOM reading is slipping, what? maybe every 5 years or so. Compost teas are applied maybe 2 or 3 times a year at the desired SOM level.

So an organic program has more inputs and cost up front, say the first 2 years, maybe 3 but long term there are fewer and fewer inputs. Because disease suppression and less weeds in the lawn is typical with a healthy soil, pesticide inputs are cut dramatically.

With a fertilizer program you will weed & feed every year ad infinitum

But lets play the game and analyze costs over 5 years on one property

The suggested program for a transition property is
Soil Sample
Core aerate
over-seed
Spray Compost Tea
(you could add a Bradfield Organics or Nutrients Plus product here)
cover with 1/8 to 1/4 inch of compost
In that order
This is done each fall (you could do it spring and fall) until SOM levels reach at least above 2% hopefully nearer to 5%

But I digress, let me put some figures together I have been meaning to do this for a while. Could we agree on some pricing for the transition program above, what do you charge for the services above

[lawncuttinfoo]

Soil Sample
Core aerate
over-seed
Spray Compost Tea
(you could add a Bradfield Organics or Nutrients Plus product here) cover with 1/8 to 1/4 inch of compost


But I digress, let me put some figures together I have been meaning to do this for a while. Could we agree on some pricing for the transition program above, what do you charge for the services above

my average: per 1K

Soil Sample $XX per prop
Core aerate $XX-$XX
over-seed $X-$XX
Spray Compost Tea $XX per ap up to 15K sq ft
(you could add a Bradfield Organics or Nutrients Plus product here) I'm applying CGM @ 40 lb per 1K at ~$32 per 1K
cover with 1/8 to 1/4 inch of compost: too labor intensive

(warning for lurkers planning on using this info to start a business(I've been there), these prices are what works for my supply/labor chain, it would be VERY easy to lose money just by punching these numbers into your plan. Take the time and figure out how much you want to make and how much it will cost you, 75% of start up lawn companies go out of business within 3 years for a reason.)

[lawncuttinfoo]

I've been reading the organic site for a while and haven't heard anyone say that you only have to go to a yard two times a year if you treat it organically.

I think your price is low. For a 10,000 sq ft lawn your price would only be at $230 for the year. The company I used to work for had a synthetic program and they would charge $650/yr for a 6 application program on a 8-10 k lawn. All be it things are probably a little different in Fl.

Personally I think there would have to be more than two applications. When I start my program next year I will probably be doing a 8-10 visit program. May seem like allot but I want to be able to catch any problems and resolve them quickly. Going every 6 months there's no telling what could happen in that time span.

That was my COST for a smaller lawn, actual price with profit included and larger lawns would vary.

I was actually trying to demonstrate that there is no way a lawn can be transitioned to organic at that cost, like people are saying "my costs are the same" ya right

[lawncuttinfoo]

ICT bill

I can see how an organic lawn can eventually be cheaper. I was mostly refering to those who claim:
"I switched to organic this year and my customers don't know because my costs are the same"

Thus saying that a transition program is equal to the cost of synthetic, would you agree that this is false?

[ICT Bill]

lawncuttinfoo
That's fair and I understand where you are coming from, you are talking about a granular to granular swap out, one synthetic and one organic based.

We will have to wait for a Bradfield organics or Nutrient plus or someone else that does organic based ferts to chime in.

I will still put together cost over time analysis of both procedures, I may not get it done tomorrow but I'll get it here as quick as I can

I think this is a great exchange of info, thanks for bringing the subject up

[Kiril]

10,000K of lawn -> reduced to 1,000K of lawn = significant savings + more sustainable solution. :)

[treegal1]

time for me to jump in, an organics program like mine is almost all profit. hold on and let me explain. the waste we generate from a tree and landscape company = dollars out in a normal LCO. We use this waste plus tipping fees from others to add$ then we sell worms that are feed the "waste"now turned $80 tote compost.then the worms turn 2 totes into one tote of $300 value retail.then we use the worm casts to make tea $6dollars per 10,000 square's.along the way we sell fish that get fed worms and algae(another time ) they make some oils retail $1000.per 30 gal.and some"top dressing"that get mixed with the $80 stuff and some $300 stuff. and some other trash to make the gold label "top dressing"that's our program.some finery's but that's the meat and potatoes. some where around call it 200 at 50 a head"easy math"

12 months a year:laugh:

[treegal1]

the card we leave,

we cared for your yard today
please feel free to enjoy a
safe and toxin free space.

dont nit pik it is just an add.

[Smallaxe]

treegal1, are you saying that you are not a 'rat race' LCO, but instead, make a profit by putting all available resources to work for you? Even the type of resources that your typical lco won't waste time with? lol.

[ICT Bill]

A bit off topic but, lets talk about "the circle of life" for a moment

Pogo Organics (Pogo tree experts) up this way cuts down trees and takes tipping fees from others to dispose of their shrubbery, lawn and tree waste.

The cost to dump at the local landfill is expensive around here. Pogo puts rolloffs at the lawn and landscape places of business, when the company calls one of his guys goes and picks up the container and charges a bit less than the landfill

All of the material is chopped up in one form or another and put in winrows that are about 40 feet tall and 100 yards long. The material is continually monitored and turned with large front end loaders as needed. BTW he makes his own biodiesel from the restaurants in DC. after about 1 1/2 to 2 years he is left with a wonderful product. He has the contract from the National Zoo to remove all of the Elephant poop, this is composted as well

The final product is sold right back to the same companies that paid him to take their waste away. The circle of life

Treegal, I love your lawn sign we should start a thread on lawn signs

[Tim Wilson]

I think Tree Gal has illustrated the real secret to success in an organic endeavor, whether for profit or for vegetables. Use what resources are available to you to create your inputs. If you have an acreage, scrounge tree cuttings, stall cleanings, leaves, bring your yard cleanings home if you are in the lawn business. Make compost and or vermicompost. If you are not on an acreage use bins with composting worms. Just use cheap plastic bins or make them from wood. Scrounge the same materials to feed your worms and cardboard and newspaper. You keep them happy and they'll produce for you.

Using local material for compost has advantages that are not just financial. If you buy compost from far away that has not been properly finished you could import disease.

Nevermind some guy halfway across the country who has magic vermicompost. Make your own. Worm bins produce great humus.

Lawncuttinfoo; Of course you are correct there is going to be more cost one way or the other to transition from chemicals to organics. Initially more labor, if you use your own material and considerably more if you purchase fertilizers. But the cost to the earth will be much less and the total cost to you in the long run will be less.

Hey Treegal; Is there need for a lab down your way?

Salutations,
Tim

[treegal1]

there is alway a need for some thing good. we have a pretty good scope and a test kit form forestry supplyers. after that its a crap shoot to test local

[treegal1]

we roll over 50 tons every 21 days 25 if we get lazy or the demand slowed "summer". the land fill in our area charges by weighed $46 per ton. the totes we use hold a ton +\- . we re sell the totes for $80. now that's a circle of life.

[treegal1]

take a look

[DeepGreenLawn]

tree, how much space would it take to get an operation like that going where I could take in waste, have a place to put it, compost it, and resale it?

Would that lot we talked about fit all that or something bigger?

[Kiril]

I've been reading the organic site for a while and haven't heard anyone say that you only have to go to a yard two times a year if you treat it organically.

If I only spread compost 2 times a year and do nothing else, then it is a bi-annual program.

[DeepGreenLawn]

I would like to make two topdresses a year but I will also have a couple treatments of CT throughout too. Those will be cheap though.

Each topdress will include an aeration, compost, and tea.

[dishboy]

I would like to make two topdresses a year but I will also have a couple treatments of CT throughout too. Those will be cheap though.

Each topdress will include an aeration, compost, and tea.

Aeration is not necessary with a organic program IMO. Worms take care of this. If anything aeration will cause compaction in the area below and surrounding the tine. You can not slam a tine into the ground without causing compaction. See Turgeon , "Turfgrass Management".

[DeepGreenLawn]

I will be using a core aerator, it will pull plugs out to help take away compaction. If my tines don't go into the ground and pull out a good plug then the lawn has major issues and a lot of work ahead of me. Then with the holes in place the compost will be raked in then allowing a softer product in place of the hard georgia red clay.

The holes also allow water, air, nutrients (compost again), and the CT get down closer to the roots than before. With my own yard I aerate as much as I can and still have a hard time getting good plugs out other than the right side of the house where the AC units are. I almost get stuck there. I can get about 1-2" plugs out of there.

[ICT Bill]

Core aeration may not be a pratice that you use but it is very useful in: Transistion lawns where you are trying to get CT and or compost down into the root area, compacted soils where you are trying to change the soil profile, over seeding in compacted turf that is prone to water just running off, because it is a good revenue stream

If there are no worms present because of previous practices this is a way to get the started ball rolling

[DeepGreenLawn]

Also, when I am doing my aeration I like to take it a step further with barer areas. I will hold back on the machine, as much as I can as it drags you already, and let the tines tear a little get the ground turned up. This then gets the whole area mixed up for the compost to get in. I can't stand walking up to a new customers lawn and being able to see exactly where the tines went the fall before because you can lay it out due to the fescue grass growing in these areas.

By the way, each time I aerate my yard I can tell a difference in how easy the plugs get pulled. I would think the compaction caused by the tine going into the soil is well replaced by the plug I pull allowing the soil to loosen up.

[DeepGreenLawn]

That is another point Bill, I saw my first lawn with signs of worms this year. I had to ask what it was because I had never seen it before. That will be an added service. Adding worms to the property. Would they be able to break through the hard clay we have or would they just die? And how many worms would you want to add per K?

[treegal1]

5 million of my worms were born and raised in that clay, they say that they miss it some times.

[DeepGreenLawn]

LOL, that is what I like to hear. What would be the proper app rate? 1lb per K or per 5K spread out?

[treegal1]

that's a hard one????..... we have an average of 6 to the tub of dirt, and the average yard gets 30 tubs per year X the number of worm baby's and the ones that are there......... dang it i lost my slide rule and log.......

[DeepGreenLawn]

how big is a tub? You have compost or castings in them? Could you PM me as to how you charge for that? I just can't get this whole pricing thing and treatment down. I don't understand how you put compost down with each treatment (charging wise).

I guess if I put down a pound per 1k then that would be a lot of worms wouldn't it? Then they would just multiply from there. One treatment enough? I take it watering should follow afterward to help loosen up really hard soil so they can get down there and stay moist.

[treegal1]

25 US gallons

[DeepGreenLawn]

Oh ok, these are the planting tubs you had mentioned. Do you just hit certain spots that need it at no cost, an extra service, or what? A tub that size isn't going to touch a yard.

[treegal1]

yes but stack 16 of them on a trailer and its easy to move compost, no shoveling at all here, it goes from silo to tub to spreader with all gravity power

[DeepGreenLawn]

makes since, did you buy those or get them from landscapers, OH, wait you are a landscaper. Never mind.

I have been looking for pots that size but everyone seems to be going burlap when they get that big.

[ICT Bill]

Burlap, lawn and leaf bags, bags left over from mulching any FREE form of container. Check with lanscapers that do big tree and shrub jobs, they are typically thrown away ot they have stacks of them in a corner somewhere.

It is just a convenient way to move things around, not to big not too heavy, they can be stack in voids that would normally not be used on truck and trailer

[DeepGreenLawn]

I will start hitting up my contacts tomorrow, maybe even today.

[JDUtah]

If you are running your worms as large as tree, I imagine if you use vermicompost for the first Compost app, the worm eggs left in there would be plenty worms for the soil. And a two in one application. Although, I don't think redworms live through winter out here, mostly just see nightcrawlers... I think. lol... anyways, would the worm eggs work well enough assuming the worms would survive the envorment?

[DeepGreenLawn]

at what point do worms not survive anymore? I am sure our winters are nothing like yours, we are happy to see flurries, I think tree would fall over dead if she saw snow down there.

[treegal1]

cuba here i come , FAST

the worms will make it at 35 degrees just so they can go deep in the ground. the cases from my understanding will take a freeze

[DeepGreenLawn]

yeah, it gets colder than that hear, not much, but it does. I will have to find a way to insulate the boxes.

[Marcos]

lawn cuttin fool,

Right now, for summer feeding, I'm using straight corn meal for my IPM accounts.
Last time I bought corn meal I believe I paid around $6.75 / 50# bag.
Granted, that 50# bag will only cover 2500 to 3000 sq ft, while shooting for a target range of between 15-20 # / 1000 sq ft.
So that comes out to a range of between $2.25- $2.70 / K.....my cost.

That gives you some idea of where I'd ultimately have to go per 1000 with the customer.


However...when it comes to sales of organic 'ANYTHING' vs. traditional chemicals, one has to think exclusively in terms of VALUE to the customer.
I could honestly sit here for an hour and type about that................................................................................................ .................................................................................................... .................................................................................................... ................................................!

[treegal1]

its called thermal mass, also see trombe effect

[DeepGreenLawn]

LOL, I can just see you saying/thinking its called thermal mass you dumb sh^t.

I was thinking, if I have boxes 3'X6' then they will get cold fast don't you think?

[treegal1]

nothing like that, the way i see it your my best hope on not shooting a flipper deer.

you need a calculator????

[DeepGreenLawn]

what is the material used to make that "window(?)"

[treegal1]

what window, your coming up on that consult fee real fast, again...........

[DeepGreenLawn]

hold on, I will look at it some more...

[ICT Bill]

tick tick tick I do believe TG finally has newby on the clock for consulting fees

Its about time

DGL, you really do need to associate yourself to someone that has a better "machine/spatial common sense" if you will, this is not a slant just an observation.

the only problem is that those folks would not typically be on here as they are mess'n in the barn with stuff and hav'n a blast

[DeepGreenLawn]

LOL, I tried to be a mechanic once... lasted about 2 months and the guy was nice enough to let me go gently. Apparently I was costing him A LOT more than I was even coming close to making him money.

I tell the guys here at the station all the time who do simple things such as fixing valve leaks with tires and small problems with the pump. "I am not a mechanic, I am a fireman, and BELIEVE ME, you don't want me under there."

I have a creative since for simpler things, but you put an engine in front of me and I am screwed, or you get technical and it takes me a min. But I try, and a lot of times I get things finished, sometimes it isn't practical like I had hoped, really just did it for fun. The screen I made in the pics has been the most practical thing so far and I just pulled scrap junk out of the barn to put it together. Don't know how long it will last but atleast it got me going in the right direction. I have plans to put some worm bins together hopefully this week.

That's what I meant, wood and I am good, machinery and you better get in your truck and RUN! Technical stuff I can figure out, just not use to the thermal stuff. I was thinking just throw some old stirophome trash from old boat docks from the lake down the street, or new styrophome to insulate it. Clean it out, put the styrophome in on the sides, fill it back up again. Or something else to help hold the cold air. The heat I figure isn't a problem, just don't want them getting too cold.

[DeepGreenLawn]

Oh, no offense taken, it takes a little more to hurt my feelings.

[treegal1]

keep it simple, thermal mass.........

[DeepGreenLawn]

lol, I know, I just didn't know with the box being open to the air on all sides if the heat would shoot out of it. Thats all.

[treegal1]

fire training 101 heat goes up, next step R value of the casts??? thats a good one to try... then thermal mass. the guy we get our worms from is not to far from you, he has a big pile in his yard and he feeds and waters the little guys, poo and lake water, he has a lot of worms, tons!!! they just lay around and make more worms and eat poo.

[DeepGreenLawn]

OK, thermal mass is where the heat is captured and then released when needed. Everything I see says stuff like concrete makes a good thermal mass. OH OK, I am an idiot, SORRY! I was going to say the other things they say to use are dirt, sod, etc. Notice the first one? Dirt? I wander what these boxes are goin to be full of? WOW, I need to go to bed.

Which guy here are you talking about? I know there is one over near Adairsville I think that I was looking at. Wild West something or other.

[DeepGreenLawn]

I don't know about the casts, how dense they are or anything, I have actually never been around them but it seems they would be pretty thick. The manure I think would do alright holding heat, especially with it a little moist I would think.

[DeepGreenLawn]

HA, found another, AAA worm farm in smyrna, that is close, the othe one was in calhoun. I should be able to check out AAA tomorrow or the next day.

[treegal1]

good start now what temp is the compost get to at full cook? good, I am going to turn compost and finish some tea.

[treegal1]

with other worm guys, dont be speakin my name, I am getting big, and not making friends to fast.

[DeepGreenLawn]

LOL, OK, I have seen prices ranging from $10 - $30/lb. Is this always the case?

[DeepGreenLawn]

good start now what temp is the compost get to at full cook? good, I am going to turn compost and finish some tea.

Well, 140 I believe is when the pathogens all die, you said you like to keep it in that range, I am 99% sure that is where you want to keep it. You had said before if it gets to 160(?) that it starts killing the good guys too.

See, I am paying attention...

[treegal1]

ok then so no freezing going o there ?????can the worms get a little heat yes 3 shovels of green poo??= heat

[DeepGreenLawn]

would one lb of worms be more than enough for a 3'X6' box about 3' tall? I think it would be but wanted to check with yall first.

[treegal1]

red worms?? one 1 lbs you can keep in a shoe box!!! 1 lbs per sq ft or 1000 per 1 foot, ask about some of the parasites that they can have, pure culture or is the some Lumbricus in there? you need to try 1 lbs in a rubber maid tote first, you have not done your home work yet it seems, the wife will love 1000 escapes around dont you think?ask around anyways, I need........ lets start with 20 lbs so that i can see the worms, then i will make a big order, help me out with this please.

[DeepGreenLawn]

OK, your right, I was just reading an article and they were talking about how worms are too commonly over simplified. I was wanting to build the box, or three, and get them going to be honest. Sorry, was getting excited with the whole idea again.

I have a tote, basically one of those plastic drawers that I made from what I have seen on the internet for my little sister-n-law. She LOVES being outside and will nuture a twig back to life. I will work with her as we figure this out.

Thanks,