Charge for using your Compact Utility Loader

[Brian M]

I just got my new Toro Dingo TX525W and I'm looking for advice on how to charge the customer when using the Dingo for various jobs.

For example; if you had a large job to do that you used to do with hand tools, and it took you 10hrs to do it and you where getting $45 hr, you would charge $450.

Now with the Dingo, that same job should only take about 3 hrs, so I would be charging $150 hr. That seems high to me and I’m sure to the customer too, for only being there for 3 hrs. If I still charged $45 hr then I'm basically working to pay off the Dingo, with little or no $$$ for me!

And with all the different attachments available, I could offer more services, but I would have to rent certain attachments at times, so do I also add in the rental price as well?

Another example, post hole digging, do you charge by the number of post holes or by the hour, and what about the rental cost of the post hole digger?

So what seems to be the average hourly rate for a CUL, and do you also charge an hourly rate for you the operator?

[beano]

Personally, i wouldnt charge an hourly rate. Charger per job and make more$$$ with less time. The customer agrees to the price, you do the work and everyone is happy. Dont tell them how long it will take, chances are they dont care, they just want it done.

[Mr. Vern]

I agree with Beano! Charge by the job whenever possible.
As I mentioned in response to your original post, if you get into the position where you are charging by the hour you need to figure what it would cost to rent the unit for the day. Remember that most yards (at least here) give you 3 hrs or full day options on rentals. If you are going to be in and out on a job - say 2-3 hours you need to charge the hourly rental rate plus mobilization time. Be realistic here; you need to prep the equipment and do your daily service as well as wash the unit when you are done. If you are getting a full day in maybe you consider that as overhead covered by the daily rental rate, but if its a small job you will likely spend another hour or more getting ready for the job, traveling to and from, and cleaning up afterward. This is all time that you can not use to bill another customer so you have to bill the current customer.
Some general rules of thumb that I try to live by are:
1. when quoting a job, I never give a breakdown of materials vs. labor, or how many hours a job will take. If they ask how long it will take, I simply tell them how many days from start to finish - not how many labor hours.
2. When working by the hour, I never even guess how many hours it will take. If you do, this automatically becomes a not to exceed quote in the customer's mind. I simply tell them its $X/hr ($105 for our Dingos or Bobcat) and let them guess how long it will take. If they press me for an estimate, I simply tell them that if I tell you a number you will be mad at me if it exceeds that and in the end I will be taking the responsibility if it takes longer than I thought it would without the benefit of the win if it takes less time(I have essentially assumed all of the downside potential with none of the upside potential) - no good!
I view estimating as a risk management decision; if I give a firm quote then I assume all of the risk. If I am uncomfortable in doing that, or if the customer requests an hourly or T&M quote, then they must assume all of the risk. I have never found a way to equitably share the risk, so I never get myself in that situation.
Bottom line for me is to determine my operating costs and establish my minimum possible price, then I try to evaluate the market value of the job and determine a job price somewhere between the two - hopefully at the top of the range. I have found that the key to keeping your price near the top is to do excellent work, and to keep the schedule booked out several weeks - if you do this you can afford to not get the job you are bidding on and as a result you will not be afraid to ask for top dollar. if you get close to running our of work you will be afraid to not get the job and so you will lower your price. Keep the calendar full!!!!!!

[YardPro]

I charge $150.00/day for our dingo. If we will have it on a job a day, but only use it a few times, i charge our $100.00 minimum for the machine....

remember that you have a $21K machine to pay for.....

[grass_cuttin_fool]

Not trying to give a lesson here or be a smarty pants but....take the cost of the machine and divide the cost by the hours ( I think most use 2000 hours as a good life of the product), figure out the fuel cost per hour, operator cost per hour and make sure you have that covered. As posted above...21k machine = $10.50....Im not sure of fuel usage but maybe a gallon an hour =4.00 and what ever your goal or the operators salary = 15.00 ??? and Im not figuring anything for the cost of repairs or routine maintenance...I have no idea on that or anything for the tow vehicle or trailer ....but what I have listed is allready 30 bux an hour to break even.

wayne

[larryinalabama]

For my tractor and mini excavator I charge 60$ per hour and mininum of 2 hours, however Im with the other fellers and try to quote the job not the hours. Those Dingos are handy and can turn a 45min job into a 3 or 4 minute job, dont know how you charge for that.

[Mr. Vern]

One more thought to consider. Say we both charge the same hourly rate for our machine, but you are twice as good an operator as I am. On the same job, I would earn twice as much as you. While I am fumbling around trying to get the job done, you are out looking for another job - that might seem attractive to you now since you just bought your machine. Wailt a little while until you are really good on it and you will see why most of us do not like to do hourly work, or at least if we do we charge a lot by the hour.
Along the lines of what Yardpro was saying, I will charge a rental fee for the day if I figured my production numbers using the Dingo, but not if I am using standard labor hours. In the latter case I figure that I am covered by the standard hours and that the Dingo will pay for itself by getting me off of the job sooner.
In the end my philosophy is simply that I made the investment and I should be the one who benefits from it. If you keep that in mind you should always be able to figure out the best and most equitable billing solution.

[Brian M]

Great advice everyone!
I appreciate your help!!
Keep it coming!!!

[Hummer]

Shouldn't you have figured all this out BEFORE you bought the new machine?

[Brian M]

Shouldn't you have figured all this out BEFORE you bought the new machine?

What are you a wisea$$

[Scag48]

Shouldn't you have figured all this out BEFORE you bought the new machine?

I'm with this dude, it's all part of a business plan. Don't buy a machine and figure out how to keep it busy after you buy it.

It would be wise to bid your jobs, do not charge by the hour. The key with these machines is that you're replacing hand labor, that's about it, and the key to making money with these machines is volume. Say you could only do (2) 2 day jobs in a week without the machine. Say each of those jobs bring in about $1,000 a piece. For the week, assuming you did nothing else, you'd gross $2,000. Figure the machine cuts your labor time in 1/3 and you could do 3 times as many jobs in a week, brings your weekly gross total up to $6,000. This only works out if you have the work to support it, otherwise you have a $20K machine sitting. Really hard to do the "machine for hire" route with these machines, they aren't big enough to do anything and you'd still try to get $70/hr. for it and nobody would pay that for such a small machine. They're a niche machine that replaces hand labor only. Good luck.

[Team-Green L&L]

I just got my new Toro Dingo TX525W and I'm looking for advice on how to charge the customer when using the Dingo for various jobs.

For example; if you had a large job to do that you used to do with hand tools, and it took you 10hrs to do it and you where getting $45 hr, you would charge $450.

Now with the Dingo, that same job should only take about 3 hrs, so I would be charging $150 hr. That seems high to me and I’m sure to the customer too, for only being there for 3 hrs. If I still charged $45 hr then I'm basically working to pay off the Dingo, with little or no $$$ for me!

And with all the different attachments available, I could offer more services, but I would have to rent certain attachments at times, so do I also add in the rental price as well?

Another example, post hole digging, do you charge by the number of post holes or by the hour, and what about the rental cost of the post hole digger?

So what seems to be the average hourly rate for a CUL, and do you also charge an hourly rate for you the operator?

It seems that this would be job specific. If you are reducing your man hours and rental costs by using the equipment that you really should have owned BEFORE offering the service, but could not or did not purchase, then your estimates should definitely raise in value. You have simply reduced mh with capitol. That's just business.

If you are subbing your equipment to someone and all you are doing is excavation, hauling, dumping, grading, etc. then we pay and charge $55 mh for equipment and operator. Mind you, that's for a $25,000 Cat and licensed operator. Not a $7000 Dingo and a guy behind it.

Not to take away from the value of your new equipment, but the majority of it's value should be placed in your ability to do more at a quicker pace and not in what to charge the customer for your convenience.

You are correct, in that, you will be basically working to pay off the Dingo and your reward is a Dingo and the profits thereafter. "Keeps your eyes on the prize and not the shot!"

[Brian M]

After the last couple of comments, I really don’t need to hear any more bull$@it about how I should have figured all this out before I bought the machine crap.

I bought the Dingo to primarily do lawn renovations and repairs for residential and some commercial customers, using the soil cultivator and a few other attachments.
I’ve been doing this type of work manually using a roto-tiller or a walk behind power rake, and all the other hand tools, and I also hydroseed.

Now with the Dingo and the soil cultivator attachment I will be able to complete this type of work in a fraction of the time and rarely have to remove any debris from the property. So I either add in an hourly fee for the Dingo or I price it by the square foot, or “by the job” which seems to be the general consensus here. I get that now!

And of course with all the other attachments available to rent for the Dingo I thought I’d put the question out there in hopes of favorable responses, which is how this thread started out, now one senseless comment by one of you and everyone jumps on the bandwagon trashing the Dingo!

I was asking about the other services I can offer with this equipment, the odd jobs that may be difficult to price, you obviously have to start with your hourly rate in mind and then add in the cost to have the dingo onsite and whatever attachment you may need to rent to come up with a reasonable price for the job. And that was what I was specifically looking for comments on.

Funny how some of you with your big old skid steers think that the Dingos
“aren't big enough to do anything and you'd still try to get $70/hr. for it and nobody would pay that for such a small machine”.

If you demoed one you’d be very surprised with the hydraulic power it has to offer, not to mention its versatility, it can go where bigger equipment can’t, the attachments don’t cost an arm and a leg, like for the larger skid steers, and you create a lot less damage if any to the customer’s property. But think what you will about it, the less of you out there with one means less competition in this type of work and more work for me!

I rented bigger machines in the past, and believe it or not, the Dingo was able to do jobs the bigger stuff couldn't.

I’ve actually done several jobs in the past fixing the lawn damage left behind by a skid steer doing work on a property and the owner/operator didn’t have the business sense to fix the damage they created with their “heavy” equipment.

There is a niche in the landscaping market that this piece of equipment was specifically designed for, and I bought it just for that reason. I’m a solo operator and choose to stay that way, I have a few guys that help me on the bigger jobs from time to time, and if you take a good look at my avatar, the patriot eagle, you should be able to understand why you’ll never see me with a crew of……..well best way to say this is Non-American workers!!!
It’s just not the American Way in my opinion!!! :usflag:

BTW, I have a full time 2nd shift job that provides me with a decent salary, health care, pension, benefits and so on. I enjoy landscaping, but I’m getting tired of busting my butt with all the manual labor I’ve done for the past twenty years or so.
So let it be understood, I did not go out and buy this machine to find work to pay it off, I bought it to reduce the need for laborers and to save my back. I’ve got the work, but for the last time I was inquiring about how some of you other guys charge when you’re using your “bigger” equipment on the job, and using it for “odd” jobs.
And yes, the Dingo qualifies as "bigger" equipment when the price is just under $20k. It may be small in size but its big in productivity!

Again, this thread started out with some very good advice but soon turned sour.
If you don’t have anything proactive to add to this thread, why waste your time on the keyboard, when you should be out looking for prospective customers!

I can’t wait to see the responses to this post, try to be nice now, you had it coming! :laugh:

[Scag48]

I think they're a good machine, if you can't get any other machine into the site due to size restrictions. That, my friend, is the key to keeping those busy. But, if you're bidding on a job that CAN be done with a larger machine, you're going to get your lunch eaten every day of the week.

As far as adding something productive to the discussion, you have to take the good with the bad, dude. If everything in this business was the way it ought to be, I'd be running my own show right now. Fact of the matter is that things don't always go the way you want them to or how you've originally planned. If you can't or choose not to see the other side of the argument, you're not taking everything into consideration.

Like I said, all equipment are tools. If you do not utilize them to their full potential, you're throwing away a lot of money. For that machine to pencil out, it needs to be replacing labor or performing specialized work that someone else absolutely cannot do with a larger machine. That's the nature of the niche market, it sounds easy to get into, but in actuality it's very difficult and takes time to build a strong customer base. A machine that size is very difficult to market for hire, most of the things it can do can be done by hand or by a larger machine, not all, but most can be done manually or with a larger machine if space isn't an issue. So if you only have 2 or 3 days a week worth of work by hand and you reduce it down to 1 day per week with a machine, which method is making you more money? Tool or by hand?

[Shadetree Ltd]

I don't understand why so many guys devalue their work and time. If the job is worth $450 (10 hours x $45/hour for manual labour) why is it worth so much less because you have invested your money and time in a machine that makes you efficient. Isn't it still the same job worth $450?

[larryinalabama]

Brian M Im with ya. Im part time also, Im investing all my profits into equiptment, equiptment is far better than having a bunch of employees, and I forgot how to speak Spanish. That Dingo will pay for itself in less than a year and it wont call in sick no SSI no workers comp. It will save your back also everyone knowns how muck doctors get.

Who says you cant get 60$ per hour for running small equiptment. I run my stuff all the time for 60$. For example my aerator is 45$ to rent it, so I cahrge 60 with me running it. I paid 1100 forthe machine aand really do make 60$ per hour with it. The difference between it a aCat D5 is you can generally sit on that cat all day to make your money. Small equiptment is generally for a quick buck here and there

[Brian M]

Scag48, you still don’t seem to get it.
I started this thread for pricing advice from others with compact utility loaders.
I DIDN’T ASK FOR ANYONE’S OPINION COMPARING A TORO DINGO TO A FULL SIZE SKID STEER!
I ALSO DIDN’T SAY I JUST BOUGHT XYZ, HOW DO I KEEP IT BUSY!
So don’t give me any crap that I can’t take the good with the bad, I asked for job pricing advice for a CUL, and that’s what I got from the majority of people who responded so far.
I’m in the lawn repair an renovation biz, I have no need for a full size skid steer.
I don’t do huge properties, the majority of them range from 5k - 10k sqft.
But I would like to offer more services being that the Dingo is so versatile, and I wasn’t sure how to charge for some of these additional services, hence this thread!

And I certainly didn’t ask YOU or anyone else in this thread for their theory on how to run a business! If that’s how you interpreted my original post, then maybe I should have worded it differently?

And Scag48, 3929 posts! When do you find the time to run a business?

Again, this thread took a nose dive with hummers post. Enough said!!!

Beano, Mr.Vern, YardPro, larryinalabama, and shadetree ltd, thanks for your replies.

Any more positive replies on the subject of “making money with a compact utility loader” are more than welcomed!

[Team-Green L&L]

After the last couple of comments, I really don’t need to hear any more bull$@it about how I should have figured all this out before I bought the machine crap.


Don't ask for advice if you already have the answers. You weren't prepared to buy the equipment, aren't prepared to pay for it obviously, and don't even know where to start in making back the money. Your business mentality is nill and this thread is now a waste of time.

Word of advice; not everyone is going to tell you want you want to hear, but maybe what you NEED to hear is what is said.

Bottom line is this; Contractors don't buy equipment to charge for it's use. They buy it to reduce their current overhead and allow for more profit per job and allow them to complete more projects than before. If you can't get that then find a new industry that you will get.

When you can't afford those payment this coming winter let me know because I'll give you 50% back on it and let you exit the loan without all that loss...

[Brian M]

What A Jacka$$

[Scag48]

Scag48, you still don’t seem to get it.
I started this thread for pricing advice from others with compact utility loaders.
I DIDN’T ASK FOR ANYONE’S OPINION COMPARING A TORO DINGO TO A FULL SIZE SKID STEER!
I ALSO DIDN’T SAY I JUST BOUGHT XYZ, HOW DO I KEEP IT BUSY!
So don’t give me any crap that I can’t take the good with the bad, I asked for job pricing advice for a CUL, and that’s what I got from the majority of people who responded so far.
I’m in the lawn repair an renovation biz, I have no need for a full size skid steer.
I don’t do huge properties, the majority of them range from 5k - 10k sqft.
But I would like to offer more services being that the Dingo is so versatile, and I wasn’t sure how to charge for some of these additional services, hence this thread!

And I certainly didn’t ask YOU or anyone else in this thread for their theory on how to run a business! If that’s how you interpreted my original post, then maybe I should have worded it differently?

And Scag48, 3929 posts! When do you find the time to run a business?

Again, this thread took a nose dive with hummers post. Enough said!!!

Beano, Mr.Vern, YardPro, larryinalabama, and shadetree ltd, thanks for your replies.

Any more positive replies on the subject of “making money with a compact utility loader” are more than welcomed!

FWIW, I joined this site in July of 2000, been here a while. Running an operation like yours is small peanuts to me, been doing stuff like that since I was 13 when I started lawn maintenance and landscaping. I know a thing or two about what's going on and what it takes to get things off the ground.

Sorry man, just trying to help you out, not trying to be an a-hole, but you're just too proud. I gave you all the answers, all you need to do is apply them to what you have going on. I understand that you're looking for pricing structure, I already told you what you need to be looking at, but apparently you're looking for someone to tell you exactly what to charge per hour when we all know that varies by region or even county. Best advice I can give you now is to jump in feet first and see what works, learning first hand is the best way to go.

[larryinalabama]

I don't understand why so many guys devalue their work and time. If the job is worth $450 (10 hours x $45/hour for manual labour) why is it worth so much less because you have invested your money and time in a machine that makes you efficient. Isn't it still the same job worth $450?

Thats the whole idea behind owning equiptment. A Dingo can eaisley out work any helper that you could higher. Another aspect equiptment lets you do a better job on your weekly accounts. You can do more work in less time therefore creating nicer yards. Presto nice yard = free advertizng = more business= more profit

[Brian M]

Scag48,
Your right I am too proud, and I’ve been criticized by others for that in the past.
I’ll always stand up for myself, I just didn’t appreciate the negative comments I started getting when all I was doing was looking for some advice.

BTW, I’ve been doing the “small peanuts” work for quite a long time myself; I never wanted to grow the company to the point where I had to deal with employees and what not. Between the lawn repair and hydroseeding, and my full time job I do ok for myself!
Thanks for your advice!

[Scag48]

To set the record straight, I wasn't being negative, just pointing out what really happens in the business. But then again, you already knew that, which is the same reason you came on here looking for answers. :dizzy: That's the thing about advice, you can either take it or leave it. You, however, decided to take it as everyone was trying to shoot you down. However, I will admit that saying you should've figured all this out before buying a machine was a little negative, but in all fairness, you should have I suppose.

[flairland]

Nice machine Brian! I have an LS125 and charge a $150 minimum per job, and then $40 per hour, plus about $50 per extra attachment per day.

[YardPro]

this might help you a little more.....

We have calculated our labor COST at $35.00/hr. this rate includes all overhead. It also includes the dingo payment, fuel, and anticipated repair costs...

EVERY hour we work i recover the cost of the dingo, bobcat, trucks, etc.....

we add a daily rate forthe equipment when it is used.... this is basically profit for the machine.

If i have a dingo on a job all day i charge $150.00 PLUS the operator fee $50.00'hr...

so a guy and the dingo for a day is billed at $550.00. our costs for the day are $245.00
machine, labor, etc.....

if the job is a longer timespan job (300 hrs+) i discount the labor rate due to the reduced windshield time...

[Brian M]

YardPro,

Thank you!
That is exactly the response I was waiting to hear.

It gives me a much better idea of what I was thinking of using for a daily rate for the Dingo plus the operator. Of course I’ll adjust it to the area I’m in, but it’s a great starting point! The calls for work started coming in last week and so far so good. The prices I quoted to the customers seemed to be acceptable to most of them.

I was looking at the rental costs for the Dingo in this area and thought if I was in the ballpark of the rental prices then that should keep me competitive.

The next thing I need is a 7'x14' dump trailer, for obvious reasons!
I may get that next week, I just have to decide which brand!!!

Thanks again,
Brian

[larryinalabama]

Try to charge a little more than the rental yard, You should find its eaisy to get and some small jobs may be sold over the phone and that saves alot of estmating time.

Your solo so your operating exxpense should be very low. So that 35$ per hour operating expense should be around 8- 10$ per hour for you.

I run a 300# mini excavator and a 40 hp ford tractor, these machines require my big trailer and are time monsuming to load and unload, they also are hard on turf. The advantage of a Dingo is it unloads as eaisy a mower, so you can speed up your route, even though you didnt bill 500 you saved time and most of all your back.