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Mike M
03-27-2008, 08:40 AM
Billy brought up a good point about higher voltage and just going 24v if you want to go over 15V.

First, it wasn't until recently that I realized why Unique recommends fused hubs. That should offset the worries about smaller wire and higher voltage, amp load issues, etc.

I would love to see the specs on this. Detailed with wiring configurations.

Can anyone think of any downsides? The biggest plus I can see is the savings on copper wire. When I install 10 gauge home runs, I feel like I am using 100+ feet of jumper cables.

I don't see the big deal in 24v as an electrical potential. Irrigators use it, and they work directly with water.

Pro-Scapes
03-27-2008, 09:27 AM
well considering 120v can be safe if done right I dont see a reason 24v cant be safe if done right as well. I think using 24v just to save on wire costs or lure a client into a maint agreement is a bad idea tho.

Pro-Scapes
03-27-2008, 09:33 AM
well considering 120v can be safe if done right I dont see a reason 24v cant be safe if done right as well. I think using 24v just to save on wire costs or lure a client into a maint agreement is a bad idea tho.

As for the jumper cable analogy look at all the 12 and even 10ga run in high end car audio and home audio systems. Irrigators use bigger pipe to keep flow up. So should you.

Im not against the 24v system but I am against the preaching of how its going to save me wire and I can run small wire with double the amps. How often do you really need 384w on a hub anyways ? You cant put more than 25a on a secondary anyways. Maybe Unique came up with something we dont know about yet.

Lite4
03-27-2008, 10:10 AM
Billy, Your amp load configuration will change when going from 12 to 24 volt. Just as it does when going from 12 to 120. My curiosity is highly peaked by this 24 volt system. You know it may not be necessary for all applications, but I can definitely see a huge market for it. I can tell you there have been many times I could have used something like this. The only downside I can see right now is fixture and bulb selection on the 24 volt side.

Mike M
03-27-2008, 10:14 AM
I could be wrong, but I think the fixtures are identical. Just use the 24v bulbs.

I believe even Kichler has or had a 24v indoor lv transformer. The MR bulbs are already available. I just don't know about all the other bulbs, but Joey mentioned GE is on it, I think.

Lite4
03-27-2008, 10:18 AM
Mike, I believe you are correct. Now that I think about it, when we reconfiguire 120 volt lampposts, we just use the 12 volt bulbs, but keep the wiring intact.

JoeyD
03-27-2008, 12:55 PM
This should help with getting things rolling. Mind you guys, I am learning a lot about the in's and out's of this new 24v system so I may not have ALL the answers at the tip of my tongue but any question you may have I will do my best to get in a quick and timely manner as I always try to do.

Although the 24v system is very easy to understand, this will require you to do nothing out of the ordinary except you will be able to...(Eddie this is for you)...use a bunch of "skinny" little wires to put a lot more lights on!! You will also consume less power or should I say use the power more effeciently as well as keeping your wire and tranformer cosst down. I know there will be people who will be skepticle of the higher voltages and that is fine, we expect this. But rest assured we have made all the proper checks to ensure our system will be and is ETL approved and is in compliance with Article 411 of the NEC.

James and any of our other fellow Canadian friends- I will be looking into where and how this will fit into your Canadian rules and standards and I will update as that information becomes available to me.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?p=2234164#post2234164

Let the games begin!!

Joey D.

Pro-Scapes
03-27-2008, 08:33 PM
Billy, Your amp load configuration will change when going from 12 to 24 volt. Just as it does when going from 12 to 120. My curiosity is highly peaked by this 24 volt system. You know it may not be necessary for all applications, but I can definitely see a huge market for it. I can tell you there have been many times I could have used something like this. The only downside I can see right now is fixture and bulb selection on the 24 volt side.

hey tims a quick one today... I meant double the watts. With the 24v system if you wanted to get stupid you could technically run 384w on a 12ga... who in thier right mind on a regular lighting job has 384w all piled together in such a small area. As a specialty tool it could be useful but I would only agree to do it if I would have a garunteed exclusive service agreement on it. Too many variables with people putting in the wrong lamps and such.

JoeyD
03-28-2008, 10:14 AM
We are developing some new wiring methods as we speak. We are going to have tremendous flexability with this system. I like the idea of being able to run 192w on a piece of 16/2!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-28-2008, 02:34 PM
James and any of our other fellow Canadian friends- I will be looking into where and how this will fit into your Canadian rules and standards and I will update as that information becomes available to me.


Joey, as long as the transformers, fixtures, etc are either CSA, ULc, or cETL LISTED FOR USE IN A "Landscape Lighting" or "Garden Lighting" system then you should be okay.

Seeing as most of your current line of transformers do not carry an appropriate listing for use in a Landscape Lighting or Garden Lighting system as per CEC, CSA, ULc or cETL, I see this as a good opportunity for UNIQUE to have your new lines tested to the appropriate standard. Go for it!

Remember, that it is permissable to manufacture a transformer that meets a myraid of standards. No one is questioning that. However, it is not permissable for a contractor to install an electrical device that is not rated and listed for the application in which it is installed or used.

Have a great day.

dwightschrute
03-28-2008, 02:59 PM
What happens when you use a 12V lamp in a 24V ststem?

JoeyD
03-28-2008, 03:12 PM
Thanks James!

JoeyD
03-28-2008, 03:14 PM
you cant use a 12v lamp in a 24v system, probably would have the same effect as putting a 12v lamp in a 120v socket. POP!

Although you could use a 24v transformer with a12v system if you had to run a super long distance and you need 24v to compensate the drop.

Mike M
03-28-2008, 08:45 PM
The 12v bulb will just work like a fuse in a 24v system. That's a good thing.

Pro-Scapes
03-29-2008, 12:42 AM
What happens when you use a 12V lamp in a 24V ststem?

ever seen a camera flash :)

Mike M
03-29-2008, 11:31 AM
I'm old enough to remember the disposable flash bulbs. One bulb per pic!

klkanders
03-29-2008, 12:28 PM
Is this how you took pioctures Mike? :)

Mike M
03-29-2008, 09:29 PM
Yeah, and the subjects couldn't move for thirty minutes. lol.

Remember film? And friends who could afford dark rooms? There was always some loner or rich teenager with a dark room in their basement when I grew up. lol--no offense to anyone.

I guess today's equiv is the kid with photoshop.

klkanders
03-29-2008, 11:40 PM
I think some of those kids had darkened rooms for other reasons. Maybe starting a horticulture career growing some plants! lol Nobody that I would know of course!

Mike M
03-31-2008, 08:46 AM
Yeah, now that you mention it, a lot of stoners in high school were into "photography"... :laugh:

irrig8r
03-31-2008, 11:47 AM
What happens when you use a 12V lamp in a 24V system?

Dwight Schrute has joined us!

Dude, I have your bobblehead!

How's the beet farm?

irrig8r
04-02-2008, 04:22 PM
Here's proof....

http://www.everythinglicensed.com/catalog/dwight.jpg

Chris J
04-02-2008, 09:12 PM
Who the heck is this you speak of?

Mike M
04-02-2008, 09:31 PM
I took me my whole life to get out of Scranton, PA. I refuse to watch that show.

irrig8r
04-02-2008, 09:41 PM
I took me my whole life to get out of Scranton, PA. I refuse to watch that show.

It's the best comedy on network TV.

Chris J
04-02-2008, 10:16 PM
OK Gregg. So I guess you have time to make sarcastic responses to my other posts (not directed at you) but you ignore a simple question directed straight at you? What gives? You got some kind of beef with me tonight? I'm game. Let me go get a drink and we will consider this "Game On!"

Chris J
04-02-2008, 10:42 PM
Okay, (as Mike would say)
It's been over an hour and you haven't responded. If your scared, just say your scared. Don't be making foolish comments and then running off to dinner or out to a movie. If you have something to say to me, then you bes stay here and say it. Otherwise, there will be no more Christmas cards for you my friend!

irrig8r
04-03-2008, 03:23 AM
Who the heck is this you speak of?

I was referring to Dwight Schrute, a fictional character on the NBC comedy The Office (the show that follows My Name Is Earl on Thursdays... or probably will again when they catch up after the writers' strike I guess).

Also apparently now a member of lawnsite.com .... (see back a few posts)

There are only two network TV shows I take the time to watch... one is Lost, the other is The Office.

Chris J
04-03-2008, 09:03 AM
Got it. Your now back on the Xmas card list.

irrig8r
04-03-2008, 12:21 PM
Thanks Chris.

David Gretzmier
04-05-2008, 03:40 AM
I don't know if I am so keen on a 24 volt low voltage system. If these come out and get moderately popular, then i've got to double the bulbs I carry to do service work. further, then it is time taken to learn a whole new set of specs. what voltage is acceptable at the socket? what is desirable? what load can be carried on each guage of wire, and what about voltage drop? The things I can do in my head now have to be doubled.

Let's say this catches on . what is stopping the next manufacturer from going to 36 volts? If more is "better"...

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-05-2008, 09:26 AM
I understand what you are saying David and I have other concerns to add.

What about the long term effect on the LV outdoor lighting industry? Forget about how it will ultimately affect your business and think about all the rest of us for a moment.
Introducing 24v systems is going to clutter the market with different operating systems for lack of a better term. Everything will appear to look like a standard LV system,except that it will be running at 24V.

Now how is a caretaker, general landscaper, maintenance guy going to know that? Heck, they barely understand LV or 12v (as they like to call them) systems as it is. So here comes the new owner of a lovely property with an outdoor lighting system installed. Looks great, except the new owner does not know the installing company and asks their well meaning caretaker to replace some lamps or fix a small issue. He tries but simply cannot figure out why nothing works, etc. So the owners simply abandon the system because "That 12V lighting is all crap"

I think this industry needs to focus more on standardization rather then fragmentation. Lets get this thing on track and develop a set of standards and our own code that can and will (finally) be accepted by the NEC/CEC as a separate chapter to the code book. Once that is done, then we can worry about fragmenting off into all sorts of direction.

Trust me, I understand the excitement and the so called benefits to using a 24v system. I understand that some would rather build lighting systems using light ga. wire and such. I just am worried that the more 'operating systems' that are out there, at this time in our industry's history, will only serve to clutter and to fragment the market even more.

I am all for advancement, change, and competition. But at the same time, wouldn't it be nice to have a industry wide standard that everyone can understand and abide by first?

Given the competitive nature of the various stakeholders in this biz, I doubt any standardization will come from the trenches. It wouldn't surprise me to see it pushed down upon us from above mind you. Best to all be on the same page when that starts happening ( and it already has in places like NJ, Washington, and here in Ontario)

Some things to ponder beyond what wire to use and what lamp works best.

Mike M
04-05-2008, 10:12 AM
Excellent points, standardization is important. However, 24v is so much smarter than 12v. It requires significantly less resources (namely copper) to install, less labor to install, and Nate claims 20% energy savings.

I'm pretty much sold on it, for the same reasons I like LED's. Smarter wiring, more freedom. Less voltage drop ramifications.

And it's not new, 24v transformers and bulbs have been around for indoor use. We'll just have to wait for the PAR's. Which is no big deal to me, since guys like Chris J have been building great businesses without any well lights.

The 24v system seems like a great idea while we wait for LEDs to prove reliability in the field. I've also seen LED's available in 24v, so retrofitting in the future may not be an issue.

And I feel it's a safe bet, too. I feel very confident with putting in Brass fixtures by Unique powered by their own 24v transformers, and following the specs/guidelines of their wiring recommendations.

JoeyD
04-07-2008, 01:32 PM
Why did man progress from the stone age? Becuase he could thats why! Why did we develop and push the Hub method? Because we could and because it was better, did you question why the Hub system came about too? Did you fear it would hurt the industry? What about the advancement of Halogen over Incandescent?

24v has serious potential to be better than 12v for many reasons. Some are comfterble with what they are doing and do not want to change, and no one says you have too. In every industry there is a company or a person who comes along to push the envelope and force people to think outside of the box. I like to think we are that company for outdoor lighting, history would show that anyway. So maybe 24v isn't for you, maybe you fear it will confuse people, but I know a good ammount of quality, professional contractors who cant wait to seperate themselves from the rest and start installing 24v systems. They cant wait to be the only guy to service the job because Joe Schmo doesnt understand the system or carry 24v lamps. These same guys understand that maximizing the use of their transformers and using smaller or fewer ammounts of larger wire is not only more money in their pockets but also eliminates a lot more runs in their transformers and the ground.

I dont expect everyone to take the 24v system and cuddle it and love it but those who do will quickly reap the benefits and be able to solidify themselves in their markets as the go to professionals for effecient HALOGEN lighting systems.

Not everyone is sold on LED just yet, I still cant get one person to produce a photo of a completely installed LED lit home? And the small LED photos I have seen couldnt even come close to a halogen lit project.

Embrace change and progression, do not look at it as 'clutter". Do you think Sony said "OMG not a Plasma TV, we just perfected Digital...then UGHHH LCD.....OMG the TV industry is so cluttered we are going to run it into the gutter!!!"

Mike M
04-07-2008, 09:02 PM
Go, Joey!!!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-07-2008, 11:05 PM
All your points are valid Joey. I have no qualms with progress, change, competition, advancement, etc. I don't have any qualms with designing, installing or servicing a 24V system. I understand where you are coming from. I have installed quite a few 24V interior applications; Remotely Powered Track Systems, Undercabinet Lighting, and Remotely powered recessed systems. They work great.... all the benefits are there. And Mike, yes there are 24V LED lamps... lots of them!

My point is one of industry standards, approvals, code and top level acceptance. We are just coming out of the rinse cycle here in Ontario. Getting the electrical safety industry, and the EC industry on our side has been a big hurdle. ( I hear it didn't go so well in NJ) To do so we have had to prove our technology, and methods to them. We have also had to 'submit' (for lack of a better term) to a few of their technical requirements. Now along comes the 24V Outdoor Lighting System.... It isnt me personally that has a problem with it... it is the other guys who are going to have an issue with it... big time!

Joey, I actually want you guys to pursue this... Just don't be total cowboys about it. Once you have all the components and lamps etc in place, apply for the proper listings that will allow us to install it as a "Low Voltage Outdoor Lighting System" or a LV "Garden Lighting System" or a LV "Landscape Lighting System". Then once you have found the right listings, or invented new ones that are accepted and approved, then you have a revolutionary product.

Have a great day.

Lite4
04-07-2008, 11:30 PM
James,
Regarding your concerns about the homeowners cursing this system, I think I would have to take exception with that simpy from this standpoint only. I can't speak for anyone else on this forum, but for me, a significant part of the process of installing a lighting system at a customers home is educating them on the nuances of 12 and lets say 24 volt systems. When the installation is finished my customer has a pretty good understanding of what has been installed for them and most of them know to just call me if there are any problems. However, I do see your point if you are dealing with multiple parties who will have access to the system for maintenance and repair. I also see Joey's point about this being a way to definitely be staying in the maintenance loop with the homeowners. If the bulbs are not readily available at the box stores the chances of them having the original contractor replace and maintain is significantly increased. I guess to sumarize my thoughts about 24 volt systems as it pertains to homeowners, would be to say educate, demonstrate, demarkate, and communicate.

Eden Lights
04-08-2008, 12:00 AM
I didn't read this thread either, sorry. Until there are a equal number 24V lamp choices compared to 12V then 24V=Snake oil. Also if GE doesn't make the CC precise line in 24V I dont know why any of else would consider it? (24V)

David Gretzmier
04-08-2008, 12:13 AM
I'm also all about progress, and James makes great points. my frustration is this, loud and clear: the landscape lighting industry, at least in my humble 4-500,000 population area, is still trying to figure out how to get consistant11.2-11.5 volts to the fixture. no matter how much education is done at the local supply houses, EVERY system I encounter is consistantly wrong. 8 volts at fixture, 13 volts at fixture, it doesn't matter. maybe the landscapers that install here will never get it.

so add a 24 volt availability to the mix, and thinner wire. THEN the landscapers run 2-300 feet from the trans. less copper always = more voltage drop. I can actually see the potential for more problems with this system in the hands of the untrained crowd. I'm certain the supply houses will push it as the latest and greatest thing. ( Hey 12 volts is good, but 24 volts is twice as better...? ) And then I have to go out and fix it. after they install the latest and greatest wrong.

sure, maybe I can be the guy with the newest toy on the block. I could be mr. cutting edge technology. But customers like tried and true. they like to know how long you have experience with what you are using. They don't like the idea that you are installing something brand new and that only you know how to fix. It traps them.

and yes, lots of technology and innovations have been good things. there's been plenty of bad to go around too. The wait and see approach is plenty prudent and wise. I'll learn what I need to service these jobs. But I suspect I'll be cleaning up 24 volt messes. just like I do now with 12 volt systems.

pete scalia
04-08-2008, 12:18 AM
The marketplace will decide if this will succeed or not. If you don't like it leave it on the shelf.

JoeyD
04-08-2008, 10:21 AM
We do not build systems for the un educated lighting person, although they do get their hands on our products. We build products for professionals who understand that a 24v system is the same as a 12v system in terms of calculating VD and testing. 24v does nothing more than give you more freedom with less wire and more efficency on your transformer. It really isnt all that different then a 12v system.

The nay sayers will only breed competion for those who are in favor of a system that will set them aside from the competiton.

Eddie you would be surprised at the lamp selection in 24v. No Par36 lamp yet but I know that wouldnt hold you back. :)

seolatlanta
04-08-2008, 10:58 AM
I have to agree with Pete, the market will dictate what works and what doesnt.

As for what Edddie said , GE will follow suit on the lamps if they see Ushio or whoever else is really gaining market share with them. It will all fall into place if its a good system.

It will be up to Unique and then the distributors to be trained on the new system and its benefits and its drawbacks. Training will be the key.

JoeyD
04-08-2008, 11:02 AM
I have to agree with Pete, the market will dictate what works and what doesnt.

As for what Edddie said , GE will follow suit on the lamps if they see Ushio or whoever else is really gaining market share with them. It will all fall into place if its a good system.

It will be up to Unique and then the distributors to be trained on the new system and its benefits and its drawbacks. Training will be the key.

I couldnt agree more!!:clapping:

Lite4
04-08-2008, 11:09 AM
I am all for the new technology. David, A lot of folks are always looking for new technology. Something that is more efficient to operate is always a positive thing. Why do people always upgrade their car for a newer one or buy an LCD with HD capabilities over the old standard tube. People are all about new technology and new gadgets. Just look at the I-phone craze. In a market that is becoming increasingly conscience about energy conservation, this just seems like the next step. Hmmm, I think I feel a new press release coming on. It does need equivelant bulb selection though to be viable for the professional to choose it.

Eden Lights
04-08-2008, 11:19 PM
I have to agree with Pete, the market will dictate what works and what doesnt.

As for what Edddie said , GE will follow suit on the lamps if they see Ushio or whoever else is really gaining market share with them. It will all fall into place if its a good system.

It will be up to Unique and then the distributors to be trained on the new system and its benefits and its drawbacks. Training will be the key.

If GE was watching Ushio they would have produced a BAB60 by now, then we would never need to buy another Ushio lamp again.

pete scalia
04-08-2008, 11:47 PM
If GE was watching Ushio they would have produced a BAB60 by now, then we would never need to buy another Ushio lamp again.

You don't need to use Ushio, Osram has a 60 degree 20 watt.

Mike M
04-08-2008, 11:49 PM
I'm curious,

Does anyone know the bulb life comparisons between a 24v and a 12v?

seolatlanta
04-09-2008, 12:11 AM
I dont know why some guys get so hung up on the GE constant color BS. I have used them ALL and all of these so-called high end bulbs look the same esp. when used with filters, spread lenses etc. I mean maybe us LIGHTING PROFESSIONALS can tell but bring Mr & Mrs Joe Schmoe out to do an evening walkthrough you think they care if you have a GE bulb-please.

I swear us lighting guys are the biggest bunch of blow hards , myself included.

And if you think these guys arent watching each others every move , you are mistaken. Its their business to do so.

While we are on the subject of MR 16 bulbs , who do you think makes Cast lamps for them? Just wondering. I have no idea but I would like to know.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-09-2008, 12:17 AM
David... the clients notice the difference between the aluminized (cheapo) and the GE Dichroic ('high end') lamps in two different stages.

1: Colour Shift. The GE's don't suffer from colour shift which ocurs as the UV from the capsule degrades the aluminum reflector that is coated onto the surface of the cheapo lamps. Ever seen the pink hue that comes out of really cheap lamps? That is colour shift

2: Lamp life. We have beat this to death hear. The GE's are rated between 4k and 5k hours and guess what? They actually deliver! Those gawd awful Ushio Ultralines don't give anywhere near the rated 10k hours they claim. And that Ushio 1032, same issue. Oh and that Ushio 2060 has been such a poor performer here that I will no longer use them. Give me lens or give me 40deg.

There is a big difference between the high end lamps and the cheapo lamps... and yes, my clients notice the difference.

Regards.

seolatlanta
04-09-2008, 12:26 AM
I didnt say cheapo at all-you did. In your climates you also probably do need a super high end lamp. Here in the Atl we have mild winters (relatively), and a lot of warm weather with cool nights and never any snow over 1 1/2 inches.

I like the Ushio front glass and Sylvania andd have been selling a lot of Cast 5k lamps and they seem to be working well for my customers at the shop.The GE are hard to get here.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-09-2008, 12:39 AM
David, if it isnt GE Constant Colour or Sylvania Tru Aim Titan, they are cheapo lamps... at least in my books.

The difference is in the way the glass and reflector material is fabricated. Casting the reflector into the glass protects it from degredation. Coating it onto the inside of the parabola isnt good enough.

There are three more differences I forgot to mention.

1: Light output on the GE's and Titans is slighting higher... this is because almost all of the visible light produced from the lamp is reflected forward. The cheapo (yes I said it) lamps allow some light to spill backwards through the reflector, causing that noticable splash of colour out the back. = wasted light.

2: Temperature profiles. The GE lamps somehow manage to reflect about 80% of the heat they produce backwards through the glass into the body of the fixture. The cheapo lamps allow all the heat to be radiated out the front onto the object. This makes a huge difference in interior applications. The clients feel like they are on stage when you use cheap lamps.

3: UV control. Dont be shining the cheap lamps onto any fine art or fabrics. GE's have a UV control built into the lamp... another big consideration when working on interiors.

Ultimately the lamp is the most important part of our craft. If you were getting a family portrait painted, would you want the artist to use cheap or value brands of paint?

Regards.

Lite4
04-09-2008, 02:36 AM
Bravo James, you are so right about the lamps. I will never purchase a fixture with a Ushio or other no name brand again. I have been burned too many times. The GE has proven itself to me time and time again. It is definitely worth the extra buck to not have to hassle with it.

JoeyD
04-09-2008, 10:28 AM
These are the first 2 complaints I have ever heard regarding the Ushio EuroStar line which is a 4-5K hr lamp. The Ultraline 10K hr we know is a poor performer now. The Euro I have never heard anyone talk badly about?!?

Pro-Scapes
04-09-2008, 11:37 AM
I didnt say cheapo at all-you did. In your climates you also probably do need a super high end lamp. Here in the Atl we have mild winters (relatively), and a lot of warm weather with cool nights and never any snow over 1 1/2 inches.

I like the Ushio front glass and Sylvania andd have been selling a lot of Cast 5k lamps and they seem to be working well for my customers at the shop.The GE are hard to get here.

I have been using sylvania titans in the last few installs. Very nice output. Time will tell if they last. The cast blue boxed lamps failed miserably for me and I relamped 2 systems on my dime... Not sure if it was a bad batch but it wasnt pretty with a call for 5 failed lamps in first 2 weeks. I really do attribute this to a bad batch of lamps as some others I have from the same line but diff shipment are still working close to a year and a half later. I have also discontinued ultra lines as the 5k ushios seem to do better anyways.

On a recent install with UPB I can say I have zero premature failures with the sylvanias. Not sure if its the lamp or the fact that the UPB makes the system come on slowly over 5 seconds and off the same way. I would assume this has a positive effect on lamps ?

pete scalia
04-12-2008, 02:50 AM
so where can I get these GE bulbs for a buck and turn em around for 15. That's how you make money in this business in the bulbs. You buy the fixture for 100 and sell it for 50 to the customer. who cares everyone knows it's the consumables that will make you rich. just like the ink jet printers they give you the printer and bleed you for the ink. You think I don't know how to run an operation. you make it on the back end. If the customer replaces their own bulbs your screwed.