Pricing a church property

[fshrdan]

Hi, folks. My first time posting. I've searched previous threads and haven't found an answer, so here goes. I know many people don't like to see questions about bidding jobs, but I could use a little help. I mostly maintain 3k to 10k lawns, my average stop is about $45. I try to shoot for $1/minute curbside. (2 man crew)

I'm bidding a church property over 4 ac in size. My equipment is:
42" Walker GHS
36" Toro WB w/ Velke
44" Toro WB w/ Velke

I don't have any properties this size, but I figure it'll take between 3-4 hrs. What are your thoughts? Minimal trimming/edging to do. I know what the market will bear for residential stuff, but when properties get this big, do people bid by time or by area?

I want to submit a competative bid, because my father is a member of the church, and I don't want my bid to be higher than everyone else's. Anyone's input is appreciated.

Thanks, Daniel

[Matthew Morgan]

It sounds like you know what your operating costs per hour are. If you can figure out real close just how long it will take you to mow this property, just do the math. Make sure you make a good profit. The glory of larger properties is that you are not traveling as much. You are working. I would rather work than drive!

Matthew

[fshrdan]

Thanks, Matthew. That's just the problem though. I'm not confident in my estimated time. With my typical jobs, more time is spent on trimming, edging, detail work, etc. I pay no attention to ground speed of my mowers and that sort of thing, because it hasn't been that important historically. I know my Walker is the the most efficient mower for my properties, but I hesitate using it on the bumpy, rough field conditions of this church. I plan to just use the WB's for this prop.

I was wondering if people have experience with my type of equipment on wide open spaces, how fast one can cut with my equipment, and also if companies normally bid lower in $/man hr terms when the properties are bigger. I could understand if people did this... decreased travel time, load unload time, etc. I just want to be competative. Many times I'll err to the high side for estimates, I don't want to do that with a church.

Daniel

[65hoss]

Personnally I think the time is off. At least for the grass cutting portion. I don't know the amount of trimming and edging you will be doing. I have a 2 acre church that I cut with 1 exmark lazer HP 52". Takes 35-40 minutes to cut with 1 mower. Your Walker is not as fast or have the same amount of inches, but with 2 mowers (walker and toro) you should be ok. I cut while my helper does the trimming.

If your experience will help with estimated time for trimming and edging with the equipment you have you can decide the best production way to attack the property.

Is the entire property 4 acres? Did you subtract out the parking lots and buildings? Did you measure to verify?

[fshrdan]

65hoss, I know that your exmark is quite a bit faster than Walkers on the wide open, by how much I don't know. I put a wheel on the turf and there's a little over 4 acres. The parking lots, etc are another 2 acres but won't usually need to be blown off. Time spent off the mower will be negligable. So you're thinking that I'd spend less than 2 hrs there with 2 mowers going?

Daniel

[Matthew Morgan]

Don't cut your profit margins because you are on a larger property. There are only so many hours in a day/week/month. Get as much for each our as you can.

Matthew

[SprinklerGuy]

Since your father is a member and it is a church why not mow it for free once and figure out how long it takes? Then if you don't get the bid at least you have done a nice thing for someone. Your father will be proud and some of the other members will perhaps ask you for bids at their home due to your "good will".

This good will serves two purposes don't you think?

[conepile]

Kind of off the main question, but now that it came up, if donating service to a church or other non-profit organization, what is deductable for tax oruposes? Is it the fair market value, or the cost for labor and overhead? For that matter, if providing a "freebie" as a promotional tool (ie: for referrals) is this deductable as advertising/promotion, and again, fair market value or labor and overhead?

[SprinklerGuy]

Unless there are CPA's on here, my guess is the answers are going to vary. I would consult my CPA. That being said.......

[Ric]

Fshrdan


I try and make my customers my friends. But I do not make my Friends my customers. Remember with a group that large someone will not like your work or price or something. This can reflect back on your dad and your self. If you do, do it, then take sprinkler guys advise and do it for free. Someone will still be unhappy but the price is right and the word of mounth might, just might work out. For the last 10 years I have done some of my church's property for free. From a business stand point this has not been a winner. From sleep at night and look in the mirrior stand point It has been a winner. This is my .02 and I am sure some one some where will not like it. The same as some in your church will not like what ever you do.

[Mowingman]

I mow a church almost this size, a little less mowing,but probably lots more edging. I also have a Walker/42"deck. The Walker is really not going to be very effecient on this size project, as the deck is too small, and the ground speed will be too slow, especially if the ground is rough. I am using two, 60" ztr's and 2 trim mowers. I charge 250.00/mowing. The previous contractor used two 48" wb's and 2 trim mowers. He was charging 275.00/mowing. We have about 2 manhours of mowing and the rest is trimming and edging. My price also includes about 30 min. of bed weeding each visit. I never take the Walker to this property.:)

[Runner]

To answer your question about the tax deduction on donated work, the answer is no. (sorry) This very exact thing was discussed quite awhile ago on here and someone looked into it, and found this to be the case. Materials for a job (durable goods) are.
As far as the 1 time donation thing, I think this is an EXCellent idea, being that it is a church. Or, if you wished, you could cut it for say, $25 or something, just to cover your fuel and your labor. Then, you are still donating your service for free. Good luck with it! P.S. Don't take this "first time free" concept to any other jobs....this is only because it's a church. I'll tell you something else, IF YOU DO THIS RIGHT, AND FROM THE HEART, whatever you receive for the job will be miniscule to the total rewards of the job. ;)

[conepile]

I recall that somewhere on the 1040 under charitable donations there is a section for not cash donations, specifically miles traveled for the purpose. I suspect the intent is for something like driving canned good collections to the food bank... but perhaps this can be applied to providing the service. The $ amount may be insignificant though. Just my thoughts.

[Randy Scott]

First off, if I understand your pricing, a buck a minute for two guys only gets you $30 per man hour. Seems way too low but I don't know what the Georgia market will pay either.
Secondly, and it's only my experience, but I will never waste another penny on advertising or pursuing any work or customers from the church. I spent a fair amount of advertising in my Sunday bulletin and the worst customers I have are from the parish. Slow paying penny pinchers questioning your every move. The only good thing about my bulletin advertising money was that 80% goes to the church. For whatever that's worth.
Finally, I think the two of you should be able to service that property in less than two hours easily.

[65hoss]

I would guess, site unseen, that yes less than 2 hours. Last year I cut the 2 acre church with 1 48" encore hydro with sulky in 1 hour 20 minutes. The walker may not be the most effecient, but it would be better than working with a 36".

[accuratelawn]

At 80% efficiency traveling 5 mph - 36" will cut 1.45 acres per hour
44 inch will cut 1.78 per hour.
So I would estimate running both machines you should cut the 4 acres in about an hour and a quarter. Not seeing the trimming or travel time, I can't give an accurate bid.

[G.Williams]

Without seeing the property it should not take any more than 3.5-4 man hours. If it does, rethink your cutting effiecincy.

[Mowingman]

Randy Scott,
I have had exactly the same experience and results when advertising in my church's membership directory. I now just give the cost of the add directly to the church.:)

[fshrdan]

Thanks for the input, guys. That's a good idea, SprinklerGuy. Now that things are slowing down, I can probably fit a freebee into the schedule. I'm not sure why I didn't think of it myself.

Thanks a bunch,
Daniel

[Guido]

And not only did it bring a lot of other work from the rectory, convent, school, school hall, etc, but it also earned me a lot of customers and respect from others in the close knit neighborhood.

I did make a profit off the job (I am in business) but not a killing like I could have. I just made it worth my time. They always got the better end of the deal though.

Every month I bought ad space in the bulletin and once a year when they had their feast I would donate my time and 2 trucks to help move the tents, pick up food, game booth's etc, and clean up with the blowers all for free. Probobly about 70 hours of my time and $300 in fuel! :)

My point is, it worked out for both of us in the end. I kept business business and I donated my time to the church when I donated my time. Keep it seperate and it is much easier to justify.

[kutnkru]

I hate to say it but Im against the grain on this one. The biggest burn I ever received was not only from a friend of the congragation but the ministers son himself, a lawyer non-the-less.

At the time I was just starting out and couldnt not only afford to fight him in civil court, but I also was so swamped that I couldnt afford to take the time off.

As for the size of the property going sight unseen charge em a buck 75, and then see how long it takes you. DONT GIVE THEM or anyone else ANYTHING FOR FREE!!! Your in the Service Industry not a Consultant -LOL!!!

Kris

[Les Blum]

I'm a new guy that's going to get into this business after my retirement in January. The info I have gathered from this site is great so I am happy to contribute some expertise back to you guys. No charitable deduction is allowed for the value of services rendered to charity. You can deduct unreimbursed out-of-pocket expenses incurred in performing services. For vehicles you can deduct actual expenses (gas, oil, tolls, parking) or 14 cents a mile.

[Bunton Guy]

Well like my dad always said..dont make good friends wiht your customers before you know it you will have all friends and no customers...they will all want a good deal. I have allready experienced that ...the lady who does my banking at my local bank wants a good deal on doing her maint...I disagreed with her but she wasent happy about it. Then agian I charge a friend
(girl friends father) 60 bucks to aerate his yard and he slips me a 100 dollar bill and reminds me of the saying my dad has said for years...nice to know that your friends understand it to.