Organics

[KUTTERS]

If I am not a franchised "Organic Application Company" what do you guys recomend as far as fertilizers and soil conditioners (Organic). I am currently shopping various brands and distributors. Any help would be nice.

[moonarrow]

I use a fert. called sustain and other products by the name of Garden-ville out of SanAntonio Tx. they have a web sit email and they will help you rooting harmone maxicrope(liquid seaweed), agricultural cornmeal for fungcide, some products I make myself like garlic tea for pesticide, ants i use a mixture of molassas,orange oil(delelimonine), and compost tea, to geat these recipes and list of products and their uses go to dirtdoctor.com, and get his book Basic organic Gardening. <p>----------<br>Dale moonarrow@hotmail.com<br>Southern lawn and Landscape

[kountryscape]

I'D LIKE TO KNOW HOW MUCH BUSINESS DO YOU GET FROM ORGANICS I THINK ITS A GREAT IDEA . BUT DO CUSTOMERS ACTUALLY CARE OR DO THEY JUST WANT A NICE YARD ?

[lawrence stone]

Most busy High end resi. customers and commercial accounts could care less what material you use. They want it green and<br>they want it now.<p>Lesco 32-5-7 50% SCU is my favorite &quot;ORGANIC&quot; fert.

[moonarrow]

kountryscape, I know that my customers love the idea that I use organics residentials and business. and whe I aproach new prospective cust. their eyes light many sit around and watch the garden show on PBS and home and garden tv. and them using organics but know enough about it or where to get it and it not very available in many of the local stores so it is My belief that it not only improves the looks of my properties but it also helps me to get new customers . Another point when I was working in Dallas Tx. for my son-in-law(he does strictly high end appartment complexxes) that his cust. appreciated and liked the idea when we changed over to organics. <p>----------<br>Dale moonarrow@hotmail.com<br>Southern lawn and Landscape

[lbmd1]

Maybe in Chicago the high end residentials don't care, but here in the Northeast, that's the exact customer who IS interested in &quot;ORGANICS&quot;. They are the ones with expendable income, kids, Land Rovers, pets, and are asking for this stuff. Do you think the old ladies care or want this stuff? It's the new rich yups in their cul de sacs! Try Harmonyproducts.com for some organic info. I met the natl sales rep at the New England Grows show the other day. They now have a homogenous product 7-2-5, that over 6 apps will put down over 710 lbs of organic matter per year at only $1.10 per 1000 sq ft. Need any more info, let me know.

[kountryscape]

thanks for the replys guys . what i'm wondering is do you need a license to apply organics or not i would think yes but don't know. what about dandelion control what do you use ? what about corn gluten meal for pre emergenent weeds after all im from corn country iowa that is. how long does it take to get good results. does anyone use just orgnics and does anyone do a complete package aerate, fert. weed contol etc. in our city they compost the sludge and grass clipping to get some rich compost it's cheap to me do i use some of this mixed with sand after aeration or not. i think theres a good market for this if i can learn more after all people don't want their kids running threw a chem. lawn !! sorry to the guys who apply chem. but this could be something good for customers and us. what about charging for organics do you charge the same price as chem. to get them to try it or charge more??<br>thank write me back.....

[lawrence stone]

Dear lbmd1,<p>In &quot;another&quot; forum you stated that one 50lb<br>bag of an &quot;organic&quot; product cost $12.30<br>and covered 5K sq ft at a rate of 1 lb of<br>N per 1k sq ft? Or $107.16/acre or $2.46/1k<br>sq ft.<p>By using a &quot;conventional&quot; product like Lesco<br>32-5-7 at $12 a 50 lb bag covers 15k sq ft<br>at 1lb of N/1k sq ft or $34.85/acre or <br>$.80/1k sq ft.<p>For a residential cost comparison let's say you can apply<br>one acre per hour including travel time<br>thus appling 10 acres per 10 hour day.<p>With the orgainic product your daily material<br>costs are $1,071.60 or 87 bags=4350 lbs of<br>material.<p>With a conventional product (32-5-7) your<br>daily material costs are $348.00 or 29 bags<br>=1450lbs.<p>So let's recap the above on a per acre cost<br>basis:<p>Organic material cost per acre is $107.16<br>Let's use $25.00 per acre/hour for equipment<br>and labor costs for a total cost of $132.16<br>The above labor cost does not take into consideration the loading, storage, and handling of 3 times as much product.<br>Now we have to make a profit to stay in business so $132.16 with a 30% gross profit margin gives you a selling price of<br>$188.80 per acre.<p>With the conventional product the material<br>cost is $34.80 per acre with equipment and<br>labor costs at $25/acre/hr your total cost<br>is $59.80 then add 30% GPM to arrive at a<br>selling price to the customer of $85.43/acre.<p>How do you justify that ANY customer will<br>pay over twice as much for organic fertilization?<p>If you take this one step further and apply this to commercial/industrial market (a ten acre site) you will NEVER get even one job<br>with the use of organic material.<p>

[1stclasslawns]

The organic I am using is mixed for me. The GA is low but it promotes fertial soil microbial activity thus reducing the N needs. My cost is 200.00 per ton and application rate is 10 lbs per 1000. So at 4 applications per year my cost is $4.00 per thousand or $ 175.00 per acre that is my cost not what I make. Jim

[lbmd1]

Larry, <br> is the other forum you are referring to the one you were booted out of for attacking people's post? For somebody with such a mathematical mind, did you fail in rocket scientist school and have to become a lawn dawg to show off to all of us ignorant math deficient monkeys? Why do you continue to rip peoples posts apart. They always say that people like you feel better about yourself by knocking others down. If you read my post above, it is a different product that I just found out about in the last few days. Has nothing to do with a previous post on another product. Although I might not have all the answers on coverage(I never claimed to be) maybe you could call one of the companies that I did refer to and quiz them to see how much you really know or don't know. I am just passing along information to others from MANUFACTURER REPS who I might put a little more faith on as oppose to a pesticide licensed person like yourself who might be a litle scared of organics and their future. But then again, that seems to be your method of doing business. Your way or no way! Don't worry about my business, with people with attitudes such as yourself, I'll never have to worry about the competition.

[kountryscape]

boy somebody turn down the heat! i thought i was in the middle of a chevy ford thing or worse yet a dixie chopper exmark thing .. bottom line is we all make money in the great outdoors some of us want to find ways not to hurt it and some really dont care as long as the money is flowin. hey to each his own i think theres a fine line we have to walk ...... maybe it's being cooped up all winter?

[SLSNursery]

No kidding, turn down the heat. If we all did things the same way what fun would that be. I am licensed to apply pesticides, and also sell them. We apply and sell plenty of organics too to both high end customers and the not so high end ones. All of our services are based on IPM (Integrated Pest Management - see post from a couple of weeks ago). I offer options, and then prices. If someone (a homeowner or a commercial company) wants to find out about product or what else is available, I tell them all that I know. I base what I know on my results from actually using the different products. With all due respect to those who have differing opinions, Larry, I have even had success selling these organic types of products to municipal interests when the product suited their needs. Nothing is impossible, and as a trade we can stand to think globally, not locally. I even sell and spread products that are 50% organic, as an option - these products are usually avaible from local blenders, and work very well. We use a lot of Espoma organic products, ROOTS, and a general purpose fertilizer call Organi-Grow (5-5-0) which is similar to Milorganite. And, by the way, isn't lime organic? Synthetic products do provide controlled release, and I use plenty of them (we unload 22 tons of Scotts w/Pendi today), especially for weed and insect control in combo products. But, many times, for a straight feeding we will switch to something organic. How much 32-5-7 was spread during the last season in the summertime? Here in CT is was hot and dry. For those who watered, I selected and applied something a little more gentle. In closing, KUTTERS - You ought to try a few different products until you find some that work for you. As far as pricing, don't be intimidated by what others might suggest. Give the public some credit (not too much, though), and let them know why you charge more if you need more product and more labor. Don't put on blinders and simply do what the masses do. <p>----------<br>Phil Grande - Soundview Landscape Supply - http://members.aol.com/slsnursery<br>Ivy League Landscaping - http://members.aol.com/scagrider

[KUTTERS]

Hey thanks for all the input! My Opinion is organics work better than synthetic over the long run. A plant uses basic minerals at its simplest form. It dosen't care where it came from. Each person is entitled to his own opinion. <p>A soil that can produce or provide more basic minerals to a plant on its own is what I try to sell my customers. <p>I have clients who are willing to pay somewhat extra to use and organic material. <br>I am trying to find products at lower cost. Shipping cost or simply to much.

[lawrence stone]

Phil your points are well taken for you have<br>then needed education and have a logical thought process with the needed background<br>in math and chemistry. <p>All I was trying to do was educate the group<br>on the economics of orgainic materials.<br>If someone considers this an attack they<br>need to justify thier claim with facts not<br>just an emotional based thought process.<p>Right know I am working up a bid on a state<br>contract that requires a 50% 'natural' base.<br>They also want 500 lbs of pettlitized lime<br>applied per acre yearly. But since the job <br>(mowing, mulching, fertilizations, fall/spring clean up, and flower planting) totals 40 acres over 8 locations I have<br>no problem conformiing to those specs.<p>The best part about bidding large commercial<br>jobs is the non-licensed gypsy contractors<br>are not allowed to even bid on the job.<p>This is the only industry I know of that even<br>considers non-licensed contractors.<p>If your are an electrican or a plumber you<br>have to have a license to even be in business.<p>

[moonarrow]

a few points about organic ferts. the onger a property is on an organic program the less you need to fert. second every thing in a bag of organic fert is used by the plant or turf but in a bag of synthetic every thing in the bag is not used (inert mater for filler sometime this is hazardous waste allowed by our govern.) when your kid goes out and pulls up a blade of grass and puts in his or her mouth which do you want. for mosquitoes and other insects I have a formula I make at home for just a few pennies and can be bought comm. have a cust. that a farmer, sprayed his chems. on oranges and grapefruit to get rid of white flies did'nt work and asked me to help so I did he couldn't believe it. this is just my oppions good luck<p>----------<br>Dale moonarrow@hotmail.com<br>Southern lawn and Landscape

[lawrence stone]

The first thing we need to do is replacing the word organic with &quot;natural&quot;. Every<br>product is organic.<p>Actually I only apply (if my specs are used) 2.5lbs of N per year at one half pound per application. Since I require of ALL of my<br>customers to buy a complete package my crew and I are mowing this turf and I reduce the<br>top growth as much as possible.<p>As far as your homemade mixes (ala jerry baker) go my commercial accounts,<br>school districts etc DEMAND a material<br>data safety sheet for all products used.<p>I have to address the concerns of MY business<br>in my local market. Someone suggested we<br>start thinking of the global market.<br>When I start producing revenue in the global<br>market I will take that into consideration.

[moonarrow]

lawarence, the mixtures I make at home can be bought commercially and do have MSDS forms on them the pesticide I use garlic and pepper tea, now being many cotton farmers and others and your are effecitng the global market every time it rains and your chemicial was down into the rivers and lakes that why Dallas, Tx. is trying to crack down on them they are the number one pollutant in the Trinity river coming from residintial and commercial properties. many state and national parks, now won't allow toxic chemicals. you need to check it out. times are changing the old ways are going to the wayside change with them. I'm not trying to be critical just trying to be informative and sometime we get set in our old ways that change is hard to except myself included. thank for your your input into the forum. see ya <p>----------<br>Dale moonarrow@hotmail.com<br>Southern lawn and Landscape

[lawrence stone]

Dave,<p>Since when is Lesco 32-5-7 applied at<br>half rate considerd a toxic chemical?<p>Please back your statments up with some type<br>of facts from an independent source.<p>You are begining to sound like a person<br>who is listed in the pesticide hypersensitivity registry.

[moonarrow]

lesco is a synthetically blended formula check the amount of inert matter in the bag the federal gov. alows this inert mater to consist of smal amounts of hazardous waste check it out<p>----------<br>Dale moonarrow@hotmail.com<br>Southern lawn and Landscape

[SLSNursery]

Larry - your points are well taken, because I have the necessary information to make decisions on which products to use. However, my statement about thinking globally did not apply directly to your effect upon the global market. I am simply suggesting that those folks who don't think that their work affects the world in which we live ought to step back and take a look around (in the general sense). Also, I figure that when a person asks for suggestions or ideas its because they want to learn, hopefully not just push an agenda. That's all, no hypersensitivity here. <p>----------<br>Phil Grande - Soundview Landscape Supply - http://members.aol.com/slsnursery<br>Ivy League Landscaping - http://members.aol.com/scagrider

[lawrence stone]

Dave,<p>Do you use gasoline powered mowers?<p>If so you are causing harm to the planet.<p>If you want to a good citizen of the planet<br>you will need to buy a used 19th century mower from the old order Amish<br>and pull that unit with sled dogs.<p>If you want to go one step further you can<br>catheterize your huskies collect the dog<br>urine then delute with water then spray<br>the urea with a backpack sprayer (non-powered<br>of course).

[kountryscape]

you know those amish don't have a bad life and most have better lawns than most city slickers just kidin you do have to draw the line but you have to admit there is a market for this stuff <br>

[paul]

Just a quick note,<br>FIFRA, Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act (amended 1972) all persons applying pesticides for hire be certified and licensed.<br>In addition, persons applying any treatment to turf for compensation INCLUDING FETILIZERS, are subject to the Lawn Care Products Application and Notice Act. This law requiers posting of treated lawns, and notification of persons who may be adversly affected by the application, IN ADDITION THE ACT REQUIRES THAT PERSONS APPLYING LAWN CARE PRODUCTS BE CERTIFIED AND LICENSED.<br><p>----------<br>paul<br>

[lbmd1]

Just wanted to share an article on some of the cons of chemical applications versus organics. I just want to let the licensed guys in this forum know that I don't judge all applicators to be like the ones in the article or of the &quot;Chem Lawn&quot; chains. I happen to refer all chemical fertilizing requests to an independant licensed applicator in my area. I along with the hundreds of customers in this area are disgusted with our local chem chain due to their ignorance in applying apps and business practices. I wish they had the professionalism that many of you show here on this forum. http://home.earthlink.net/~alto/ch14.html