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View Full Version : Any truth to Vinegar as an organic herbicide?


Carolina Cuts
04-01-2008, 08:48 PM
any truth to this... anyone ever try vinegar?

http://www.moscowfood.coop/archive/VinegarKillsWeeds.html

Organic a go go
04-01-2008, 09:09 PM
Yep. If you're interested a product like Burnout is a good bet but anything that's at %20 acidity is going to be essentially the same deal. Its purely contact so its not going to take down broadleaf perennials like RU will but in most respects it's a similar deal.

Whitey4
04-01-2008, 09:18 PM
If LS50 data corraltes, it should work better than RU... it's more lethal in LD50 testing.

Carolina Cuts
04-01-2008, 09:29 PM
If LS50 data corraltes, it should work better than RU... it's more lethal in LD50 testing.


ummm... huh?

greendoctor
04-02-2008, 01:21 AM
ummm... huh?

Acetic acid(vinegar) will also cause skin and eye burns. Scythe is also very irritating. It is ironic how the "organic" options make the bad pesticides such as glyphosate and diuron seem benign in comparison.

Whitey4
04-02-2008, 07:17 AM
Wow, butchered that one... correlates....

Organic a go go
04-02-2008, 05:58 PM
You'll for sure wanna keep it outta your eyes and you don't wanna drink it either. But if you're looking to use it to make money from customers who have particular issues with other products, which I think is your point. Then that's your product.

no_longer_lurker
04-02-2008, 06:12 PM
I like it on my french fries

PSUTURFGEEK
04-02-2008, 08:21 PM
I think everyone should start using more of these products so I can save on advertising and continue to kill the weeds with a systemic weeed control that is actually alot safer if swallowed.

greendoctor
04-03-2008, 03:52 AM
I think everyone should start using more of these products so I can save on advertising and continue to kill the weeds with a systemic weeed control that is actually alot safer if swallowed.

DuPont will really own me should this type of product become more popular. Yes, 10% vinegar will top kill weeds. Now how do you keep it dead for the next 12 months. With a solid preemergent or bareground program.

Organic a go go
04-03-2008, 09:02 AM
Actually its %20 you want. You'll keep it dead for the next 12 months by applying ferts that build soil fertility and selects an environment that disfavors weeds in the first place. Meanwhile you'll have distinguished yourself from the herd, created additional value for your business, given the customer what they wanted and made more money. If that sort of thing interests you. Carolina Cuts, and anybody else that wants to start adding organics to their service, is being a smart businessman. There's going to be A LOT more of it in the future so get ready.

no_longer_lurker
04-03-2008, 06:31 PM
Actually its %20 you want. You'll keep it dead for the next 12 months by applying ferts that build soil fertility and selects an environment that disfavors weeds in the first place. Meanwhile you'll have distinguished yourself from the herd, created additional value for your business, given the customer what they wanted and made more money. If that sort of thing interests you. Carolina Cuts, and anybody else that wants to start adding organics to their service, is being a smart businessman. There's going to be A LOT more of it in the future so get ready.

I'm not going to argue the point BUT in my 26 years of lawncare we have always heard the same comments..."GET READY, ITS THE FUTURE"

and yet there still is no real useful "organic" herbicide on the market?
Hey, I'm ready, I just dont see anything coming along in the near or distant future

Organic a go go
04-03-2008, 07:48 PM
I don't wanna argue either but it isn't a question of the products or the research being out there. It is. At this point its a question of what you can sell and what you can't. Money in your pocket.

If you don't live in an area with much demand then it really doesn't matter how effective organic products are if nobody wants them. But if you do live in an area with demand its hard to see how appealing to an expanding customer base is going to end up being bad for your business. A customer base btw which tends to be more affluent and willing to pay more for services they value. I mean come on. Where is the downside???

And don't kid yourself. Look at consumer trends across ALL sectors. Look at the VC investments in green start ups of all kinds. Look at the products being brought to market every year. This 'aint 26 years ago. Cut yourself a slice of the pie.

Whitey4
04-03-2008, 10:22 PM
Yeah, it's goin so great, the organic folks are filtering into this forum because the organics forum is so slow!

Organics aren't a ground swell, and whether or not it's the future is highly up to debate, generally fueled by the green industry organics folks who want to see it happen.

My opinion is based on my area, my customer base. I sell IPM, with most chemicals as a last resort treatment, with exceptions of herbicides, which I use and my customers want me to use. I have had ONE new customer ask about organics. I easilly talked her out of CGM. I use a lot of so called "organic methids", but they belong to IPM programs at least as much as they do to 100% organic ones. The real difference is that man made controls aren't inherently bad..... and glyphosate vs> vinegar is a perfect example.

turfcobob
04-04-2008, 11:06 AM
My dad is old school being 84 is probably why. He uses 20 mule team borax to control some weeds and believe this. He takes potatoe bugs blends then in a blender mixes in a bunch of water makes a spray out of it and uses it in his garden. Claims he never has a bug.

Ric
04-04-2008, 07:54 PM
If LS50 data corraltes, it should work better than RU... it's more lethal in LD50 testing.

Organic a go go

I hope this thread will opens your tree hugging eyes to realize not all synthetic pesticides are totally bad. Organic has it's place, but this is the 21st century.

I would like to point out that glyphosate (Roundup) is eaten by microbes once it hits the ground or water and leaves no lasting effect on our environment. You can't say that about Acetic acid (vinegar). Already pointed out in this thread are many problems associated with dealing with acids. Regardless if Vinegar is eatable, it is still an acid. Adding acids to our water or soil (particularly low pH soil) can do no good.

Part of doing good yard care as well as being Green, is education and common sense. Please use a little of each.

PSUTURFGEEK
04-04-2008, 08:36 PM
Here's a good one, My college buddy Aaron up in State College drank one gallon of razor for 500.00 and had the craps for three days and was fine after that, it's been ten or so years and no problems, I know it is a stupid thing to do in the first place but it shows how safe it really is.

ArizPestWeed
04-04-2008, 11:50 PM
If LS50 data corraltes, it should work better than RU... it's more lethal in LD50 testing.

LD50 refers to animals only , I believe

Ric
04-05-2008, 11:58 AM
LD50 refers to animals only , I believe

Yo Airhead

You believe a lot things that aren't real or true.

While LD 50 testing is not done on humans, it is done on mammals. As humans we are also mammals. (see there you learn something every day). LD 50 is calculated on the amount of toxic material it takes per body weight to cause death in 50% of the population. Or Lethal Dose for 50% (LD 50). The population is considered to be the average of the species in the middle age group. The young and old are not used for testing since they are more susceptible to toxic material.

GCLC
04-07-2008, 01:46 AM
Yo Airhead

You believe a lot things that aren't real or true.

While LD 50 testing is not done on humans, it is done on mammals. As humans we are also mammals. (see there you learn something every day). LD 50 is calculated on the amount of toxic material it takes per body weight to cause death in 50% of the population. Or Lethal Dose for 50% (LD 50). The population is considered to be the average of the species in the middle age group. The young and old are not used for testing since they are more susceptible to toxic material.

I think you proved his point for him while calling him an airhead. I think he meant the ld50 doesn't apply to plants, only to animals.

And it does apply only to animals. You went into all that mammal human stuff, but he said animals, not humans. Not all mammals are human, but all humans are mammals, and not all animals are mammals, but all mammals are animals. (that's almost like an ACT question turned into a poem or something.)

So, he's right.

Ric
04-07-2008, 10:48 AM
I think you proved his point for him while calling him an airhead. I think he meant the ld50 doesn't apply to plants, only to animals.

And it does apply only to animals. You went into all that mammal human stuff, but he said animals, not humans. Not all mammals are human, but all humans are mammals, and not all animals are mammals, but all mammals are animals. (that's almost like an ACT question turned into a poem or something.)

So, he's right.

GCLC

You caught me. I didn't read the former post he quoted. AirHead is famous for making AirHead type posts. I responded to his screen name more than his actual post.

I bad.

Marcos
04-07-2008, 02:24 PM
Right now I'm using 10% vinegar in an ongoing experiment not to kill WEEDS, but to see if I can "lower and hold" the soil pH in certain circumstances, especially where there is heavy clay soils, and alkaline readings of 7.5 or higher (like what is typical here in S. Ohio).

I envision this for me as an alternative to split-pea sulfur sometime in the future.
And the addition of very calculated amounts of vinegar into my liquid fert program would be a "natural" (pun intended) :).

I've got one full season finished with my 1000 sq ft test plots.
I've got one more to go before I'm convinced either way.

Ric
04-07-2008, 04:43 PM
Right now I'm using 10% vinegar in an ongoing experiment not to kill WEEDS, but to see if I can "lower and hold" the soil pH in certain circumstances, especially where there is heavy clay soils, and alkaline readings of 7.5 or higher (like what is typical here in S. Ohio).

I envision this for me as an alternative to split-pea sulfur sometime in the future.
And the addition of very calculated amounts of vinegar into my liquid fert program would be a "natural" (pun intended) :).

I've got one full season finished with my 1000 sq ft test plots.
I've got one more to go before I'm convinced either way.

Marcos

A cup of household vinegar in a gallon of water is used once a week to lower pH on Gardenias plants in my area. It seem to work well. However 10 pounds of sulfur per thousand sq ft will lower pH one point in 30 days. You can lower pH for only a short period of time depending on your soil.

Marcos
04-07-2008, 08:24 PM
Right now I'm using 10% vinegar in an ongoing experiment not to kill WEEDS, but to see if I can "lower and hold" the soil pH in certain circumstances, especially where there is heavy clay soils, and alkaline readings of 7.5 or higher (like what is typical here in S. Ohio).

I envision this for me as an alternative to split-pea sulfur sometime in the future.
And the addition of very calculated amounts of vinegar into my liquid fert program would be a "natural" (pun intended) .

I've got one full season finished with my 1000 sq ft test plots.
I've got one more to go before I'm convinced either way.





A cup of household vinegar in a gallon of water is used once a week to lower pH on Gardenias plants in my area. It seem to work well. However 10 pounds of sulfur per thousand sq ft will lower pH one point in 30 days. You can lower pH for only a short period of time depending on your soil.

That's been the consensus from more than one person I've talked to, from here and from different sources.
But my theory is that the extremely heavy clay in this region can and will be able to hold an achieved level of acidity for a much greater time than would a loamy or sandy soil.
That's why I've got multiple plots on different sites with different soil types.

If it works out in such a way that it does indeed work to stabilize at a substantially lower pH...I'll then look to find a way to market the use of vinegar into my (already liquid) program as an "organic component" that would (gradually) lower pH and help reduce the frequent and chronic chlorosis issues around here...and reduce the need for "iron", etc in peoples' programs.

If it DOESN'T work...well, then...that's just how the 'scientific method' shakes out...

nik
04-08-2008, 07:01 PM
Vinegar stops being vinegar at 8%. Anything over that becomes acetic acid. An acetic acid herbicide has to be registered with EPA. There have been a lot of "horticultural vinegar' products that have crept in and out of the market. Acetic acid at 20% is a dangerous substance and will cause nasty and most likely, permanent eye damage. A lot of the organic products appear with minimal directions and little in the way of personal protective gear on the label.

You can find herbicide products with acetic acid as an "inert" ingredient that may not have to be registered. Just because it may have been sourced form an organic source don't make it safe. Some of our best and most notorious pesticides come from nature. Washington State University did some trial work with it a few years back. It burns damn near everything down and you can get residue weed control as mentioned by changing the pH.

ArizPestWeed
04-09-2008, 01:20 AM
Yo Airhead

You believe a lot things that aren't real or true.

While LD 50 testing is not done on humans, it is done on mammals. As humans we are also mammals. (see there you learn something every day). LD 50 is calculated on the amount of toxic material it takes per body weight to cause death in 50% of the population. Or Lethal Dose for 50% (LD 50). The population is considered to be the average of the species in the middle age group. The young and old are not used for testing since they are more susceptible to toxic material.

Ric , you short little moron , you have been drinking too much 'thrin , again , haven't you ?

Ric
04-09-2008, 11:08 AM
Ric , you short little moron , you have been drinking too much 'thrin , again , haven't you ?


Thrin ???
http://www.urbandictionary.com/author.php?author=Thrin

AirHead

They say the Doll I am dating is like a Goddess.

ArizPestWeed
04-09-2008, 08:37 PM
Thrin ???
http://www.urbandictionary.com/author.php?author=Thrin

AirHead

They say the Doll I am dating is like a Goddess.

You are not a smart man .

Look closer , moron ,,, 'thrin is short for something

ArizPestWeed
04-14-2008, 01:01 AM
Come on Ric , come out of hiding , respond !

Ric
04-14-2008, 11:51 AM
Come on Ric , come out of hiding , respond !

AirHead

OK I admit I am old school. I don't have to hold my pants up with one hand when walking. I actually buy my pants the correct size and my butt crack is not public knowledge.

So edumake me and tell me what is YOUR meaning of "thrin"

GreenthumbGA
04-14-2008, 07:58 PM
keep vinegar out of eyes........check

Organic a go go
04-14-2008, 08:08 PM
Organic a go go
I would like to point out that glyphosate (Roundup) is eaten by microbes once it hits the ground or water and leaves no lasting effect on our environment. You can't say that about Acetic acid (vinegar). Already pointed out in this thread are many problems associated with dealing with acids. Regardless if Vinegar is eatable, it is still an acid. Adding acids to our water or soil (particularly low pH soil) can do no good.

Part of doing good yard care as well as being Green, is education and common sense. Please use a little of each.

Ric I could care less what you or anyone else can use to your best advantage to make a living for yourself. Seems to me a lot of you guys get considerably more upset when someone like me uses something different from you which I find strange.

However friend your knowledge of how carbohydrate-based acetic acid actually functions in the soil is sorely lacking so maybe you could take a bit of your own advice??