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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-03-2008, 07:38 PM
The information I have here is from the Canadian Electrical Code, Table 12.

It states that the ampacity of flexible cord listed as the types: SJOW, SPT-1, SPT-2, STJOW and many others (the type we use) is:

16ga - 13amps
14ga - 18amps
12ga - 25amps
10ga - 30amps
8 ga - 40amps

I would like to see the similar ratings as contained in the NEC. Could someone look this up and quote them here?

Have a great day.

The Lighting Geek
04-03-2008, 08:38 PM
Article 310.15 NEC 2008

Type UF Wire based on 60 degrees cel./140 degrees far.
14g - 20 amps
12g - 25 amps
10g - 30 amps
8g - 40 amps

seolatlanta
04-03-2008, 10:26 PM
Please dont take this the the wrong way James but do you work?

Has it not thawed out up there yet?

I'm sorry but posting a question like that .......:)

NightScenes
04-03-2008, 10:30 PM
James, I think you need to re-read that section of the code. This is a completely different application.

maintenanceguy
04-03-2008, 10:52 PM
I'm assuming you're burying cable. My 2005 NEC is at work. Here's table 310.16 from the 1998 code book on CD.

There are probably a dozen charts of ampacities depending on the application so this might not apply depending on what you're doing.

NightScenes
04-03-2008, 10:53 PM
Damn, my eyes are too old to read that thing!!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-03-2008, 11:37 PM
James, I think you need to re-read that section of the code. This is a completely different application.

Paul, I think I know where you are going... and this might be where the CEC differs from the NEC. As for the type of cable/cord and its application, here we use this definition:

Rule 30-1204 of the CEC states:
"Flexible cord shall be permitted to be used on the secondary side of the transformer and be permitted to be secured to structural members and run through holes."
Further CSA22.2 no.250.7-07 section 1.4 states:
"This standard applies to the following associated components:
(c) flexible cable and associated connectors intended for use in the secondary circuit."
They even identify flexible cable in their diagram of a typical landscape lighting system.

Its not really a big deal... as I dont know any pro who would load up a cable to its full ampacity rating anyway. I know I never have nor will.

I just thought it would be interesting to examine any differences.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-03-2008, 11:41 PM
Please dont take this the the wrong way James but do you work?

Has it not thawed out up there yet?

I'm sorry but posting a question like that .......:)

Yes David, I work. I work more then most and I consider things like contributing here, learning, and broadening my knowledge and understanding of my trade to be work.

It has not thawed out here yet, we still have a couple of feet of snow on the ground. We will be at least a few weeks behind in starting the outdoor lighting season, which is currently booked up into July with new installations. The interiors are lining up very well too. I just closed a big job today, one last week, and hopefully one on Saturday.

Why bother sleeping when you are having this much fun at work? :sleeping:

seolatlanta
04-04-2008, 06:56 AM
I was just bustin' on you- I know you can give as good as you can get:canadaflag:

JoeyD
04-04-2008, 09:54 AM
Here was my response to this in the Unique Forum yesterday to James.......

James....Our Home Run wires are NOT considered FLEXIBLE CORDS!!

Flexible Cords are used for and attached to Utilization equipment, Appliances such as portable lamps and toasters, apparatuses etc...It does state luminaire as well BUT this means attached to fixtures not BRANCH WIRES or CIRCUITS which are what feed the flexible cords their power!!!

Our Home Runs or Branch Wires/Circuits are CONDUCTORS which means that the ratings need to come from Article 240.4 PROTECTION OF CONDUCTORS!!!!

So now refer back to Article 240.4(D) .....THE OVER CURRENT PROTECTION SHALL NOT EXCEED 15AMPERES FOR 14AWG, 20AMPERES FOR 12AWG...........

Not enough? Ok Read Article 400.9 Splices...FLEXIBLE CORD SHALL ONLY BE USED IN CONTINUOUS LENGTHS WITHOUT SPLICS OR TAP WHERE INNITIALLY INSTALLED IN APPLICATIONS PERMITTED BY 400.7......

In our world of landscape lighting we make multiple splices. Obviously our Unique Hub system allows you to minimize this but you use a much more complex wiring method which forces you to make around 2 SPLICES per light on average.....

you can argue it all you want, call the wire manufactures, call an electrical inspector and ask if you can run 12/2 up to or on overcurrent protection fo 25amps. We did and we were forced to really research and understand the NEC.



Thanks!!

Joey D.

johnh
04-04-2008, 10:04 AM
It would seem this is simply a case of difference in the code. Canada uses the CEC (Canadian Electrical Code) and in the US, the NEC. The code in Canada allows for flexible cord to be used as secondary circuit cable, as James pointed out in Rule 30-1204. This section of the CEC is specifically for Extra Low Voltage Landscape Lighting, so definitely applies to our industry. And as for running it by electrical inspectors, I have discussed this very issue with a Senior Tecnhical Advisor and a Code Engineer with the local electrical authority. Proof enough for me.

John H

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-04-2008, 10:05 AM
John H. just cleared this up I think.

JoeyD
04-04-2008, 10:06 AM
And for the record, wire manufacturers I belive build 12/2 to accept up to 25amps becuase someone will always overload, just like they build all wire to accept up to 150v.

Chris J
04-04-2008, 11:26 PM
Being that this forum is contributed to by mostly American contractors, I would like to recommend that we limit the conversation of Canadian codes to the bare minimum. It seems that the Canadian codes do nothing but confuse everyone, and they really have no purpose on this forum. In the event that this forum becomes overly influenced by Canadian members, then we can revert back to the confusing times which plague us at present. Until that time, I propose that all of the Canadian crap (codes, ethics, practices, groups, organizations, egos, etc...) be banned from being discussed. It is just not doing any of us any good, is it??
Nothing personal James. I just want to associate with "like minded individuals" on certain topics, and your influence is just making the water more muddy than it has to be.

johnh
04-07-2008, 07:38 AM
I think it would make more sense to just clearly identify when talking about different codes, rules, etc.. It would be very narrow minded to think that there was nothing in the Canadian codes, or CSA even that could help and assist in developing an international standard for landscape lighting. Although bearing no official weight, we referred to the NEC and UL standards as part of our negotiations with the local electrical safety authority, and it was beneficial to us. I should also point out, that the CSA, although having Canada in it's name, is an international testing agency, and is recognized in the US with bilateral standards.
However, should the administrators of the site choose to ban Canadian content, that is their right, but I think many would lose out.

John H

steveparrott
04-07-2008, 07:59 AM
Why limit the forum to the US? Landscape lighting is all over the world and this site is viewable from other countries. I know contractors in the US that install in many other countries. In fact, there's no reason why James and other forward thinking contractors shouldn't explore expanding their services to other countries. It would be a great project to document codes in other countries as they apply to our work, and contributions in this forum would be valuable towards that effort.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-07-2008, 08:03 AM
Chris: Your wanting to ban any 'Canadian content' on this site is not only ridiculous, it is near sighted, shallow, and borders on jingoistic.

As wonderful and all-powerful and all-knowing as the USA is, I assure you there is a great big world of knowledge, experience and opportunity out there beyond your borders. You might want to re-think your position and not only be thankful for, but also embrace your ability to broaden your perspective by listening to and participating with people who have different experiences and backgrounds from yourself.

It is called diversity. It comes in many forms. You might want to look into it.

Chris J
04-07-2008, 09:23 PM
Man, you guys are wound tight. I didn't think you would actually take that post serious, but since you did I guess I've offended you. Please accept my apology....... I'll try to remember my emoticons from now on.
Take a pill, have a drink or do whatever it is you guys do to relax. I'll leave you alone for a while.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-07-2008, 09:36 PM
Man, you guys are wound tight. I didn't think you would actually take that post serious, but since you did I guess I've offended you. Please accept my apology....... I'll try to remember my emoticons from now on.
Take a pill, have a drink or do whatever it is you guys do to relax. I'll leave you alone for a while.

TOUCHE! :D

You didnt think my light hearted reply to your light hearted suggestion was serious did you Chris? :laugh:

Ahh, the all powerful emoticon :cool2:.... let this be a lesson to everybody... when you are poking fun, just add a smile. :) Text is just too impersonal and too easily mis-understood at times.

Now that we have that out of the way, go for it Chris! Show me what you got! :p