So you think you want a MTL?

[ksss]

Here are some of the results from todays auction. None of these machines appear to be badly beaten. Take the hours by the purchase price and you have an idea on the depreciation someone took.

http://www.ironplanet.com/jsp/s/item/168882?h=405%2C1946

http://www.ironplanet.com/jsp/s/item/168911?h=405%2C1946

http://www.ironplanet.com/jsp/s/item/168879?h=405%2C1946


Goes back to you better be making money with em, cause they aint cheap to buy, but are cheap to buy back apparently.

[Fieldman12]

Just think what ever the person paid for each of these machines. It's first year in service a good portion of the money brought in by the machine was lost in the value of the machine. Does not look like the person made hardly anything. Im sure some guys that run allot of hours and a good rate made something but probably for every guy that does that there is probably 10 that dont put much over 300 hours a year on the machine.

[Fieldman12]

If I ever decide to go with tracks which I need maybe 30% of the time so far I may choose to go with the VTS system or a good used machine that has had the undercarriage replaced. It's looking like a Deere, Case or Takeuchi at this point. I just dont have faith yet in the Cat track sysem. I would own one of there skids though.

[mrsops]

out here by me if you dont have a track machine you cant compete. its a must some guys have 2 3 of them

[ksss]

They have value and some guys certainly need them, but it reinforces the point that you have to charge accordingly. These were CAT machines but it applies to all of them (although I think the B series takes a harder hit than most others). I plan on bolting on the VTS on Tuesday. If the VTS holds up (I have yet to hear that they don't) I really cant see a down side to them. Yea it sucks paying the price for them up front, but as you can see, you pay either way. I'll bet if those MTL's were skid steers with comparable hours the depreciation would have been half what these machines were. I roughly figured about 20 dollars a metered hour went to depreciation. Considering with the VTS you pay the 15K upfront, you could recapure most of the purchase price in one machine (depending on when it was traded and condition but you get the point). You also have versatility of having wheels if you want to swap back and forth.

One more plug for VTS. I spoke with these guys at ConExpo. I told them that I bought a set of tracks for a 246B at auction and they were going on a 440. Yesterday I had a call from Leogren. They wanted the serial numbers off the tracks so they could ensure that they would fit. They then sent me schematics on how to adjust the tracks for my machine. I thought that was excellent follow through on their part.

Having no more than a couple days on a VTS machine, I don't know that they are the complete answer but it appears to me that they may be on to something.

[Fieldman12]

It takes big bucks to play with big trucks. Well, that can be said for a CTL/MTL machine. It takes big bucks to play with a CTL/MTL machine. :)

[Construct'O]

Ksss while your pushing the pencil tonight do a little for me.I was talking to the Deere saleman the other day and he asked me if i would like to trade my CTL in.

So i asked what kind of deal could i get.He said i could get the same machine with all the same options for 10 1/2K difference.The new machine would have the E/H Deere new pilots which supposely was around 2000 dollar optiong.

So how would that compare to an Ironplanet deal????

My machine is 05 model and had like around 650 hours.Excellent shape ,from just working in the dirt.

So how would that figure out, as good deal,so so deal or what????

I'm not going to trade,but thought that wasn't too bad.Since my machine is 3 years old now.It was a built in Sept. 05. Push the pencil okay.Thanks:usflag:

[stuvecorp]

I think the VTS is kind of a game changer for skids. If you stay with the same size machine, once the VTS is bought you can keep moving to the next machine. I have noticed the salesman that sell MTL/CTL's pooh-pooh the VTS.

[Dustin1]

I have a Mustang dealership in MN. I also sell VTS. They are awsome. I put A MTL 20 against A Mustang 2076 with VTS. I put them plate to plate and had them both start pushing. The Mustang MTL 20 had no chance. Mustang wheeled skids do have the highest axel torque in the industry. I do have to say the MTL's are very bullet proof.

[ksss]

Ksss while your pushing the pencil tonight do a little for me.I was talking to the Deere saleman the other day and he asked me if i would like to trade my CTL in.

So i asked what kind of deal could i get.He said i could get the same machine with all the same options for 10 1/2K difference.The new machine would have the E/H Deere new pilots which supposely was around 2000 dollar optiong.

So how would that compare to an Ironplanet deal????

My machine is 05 model and had like around 650 hours.Excellent shape ,from just working in the dirt.

So how would that figure out, as good deal,so so deal or what????

I'm not going to trade,but thought that wasn't too bad.Since my machine is 3 years old now.It was a built in Sept. 05. Push the pencil okay.Thanks:usflag:

I get around $16.00 an hour or $4,200 a year (I am considering your machine 2.5 years old). It is almost 25% better than the examples I posted. Whether that is a good deal or not depends on your perspective. If I was a Deere owner, I would trade simply to get into the new controls system, so for me it would be worth the trade if for no other reason. Someone else posted that they got 42 months interest free on a 322. If you could get free money on top of the deal, all the better. I have had as low as 5 dollars an hour depreciation on some machines, others have been 10-11. I traded early on my last machine (465) I really need to keep the 95XT another year. I was lured by the free money, and the new series.

[iron peddler]

i sell both dedicated track and vts....the only advantage for me on the vts is that i can sell it to other brands and intial cost can be a deal maker...as far as issues...in between loegering messing with track compounds and the extra wear and tear due to the weight of the system, i would say it is even when it comes to customer issues, it does allow flexibility for the customer especially when it comes to snow pushing and pavement jobs.

[stuvecorp]

I personally am not a big believer on the CTL/MTL's no matter what the brand, they have there place and are nice but how do they earn their keep? The maintenance costs and the depreciation are scary. I have done alot of varied projects and it hasn't hurt us to have a wheeled skid or to use the over the tire tracks. Ksss, you have been there and done that yet you run wheeled units, what are your thoughts? You guys that are running rubber track machines, do you charge more? I find the different reasons interesting.

[ksss]

i sell both dedicated track and vts....the only advantage for me on the vts is that i can sell it to other brands and intial cost can be a deal maker...as far as issues...in between loegering messing with track compounds and the extra wear and tear due to the weight of the system, i would say it is even when it comes to customer issues, it does allow flexibility for the customer especially when it comes to snow pushing and pavement jobs.

When I demoed the 256C I saw that CAT now offers a VTS ready machine. Does that package address some of the stress issues with this system?

[Dustin1]

I would agree. I have not seen any problems yet with extra wear and tear.

[Construct'O]

I get around $16.00 an hour or $4,200 a year (I am considering your machine 2.5 years old). It is almost 25% better than the examples I posted. Whether that is a good deal or not depends on your perspective. If I was a Deere owner, I would trade simply to get into the new controls system, so for me it would be worth the trade if for no other reason. Someone else posted that they got 42 months interest free on a 322. If you could get free money on top of the deal, all the better. I have had as low as 5 dollars an hour depreciation on some machines, others have been 10-11. I traded early on my last machine (465) I really need to keep the 95XT another year. I was lured by the free money, and the new series.

Other factor has to do with not trading.One is my age and abiltity to perform.Still owe on the machine and other things.Also they haven't up graded their cabs yet ,so other then pilots, not that much of an upgrade.

The other controls do fine for what i use my machine for,mainly just hogging dirt.The no interest would be good ,but the off set of the extra money for trade difference,which i need for the rest of my operation ,would cancel the benfit of that.

If for not those factors, at this time i thought it an okay deal,and better then what i see also by Ironplanet.Thanks:usflag:

[iron peddler]

the vts ready package is actually somewhat of a marketing topic that is it a long story to get into...it is mostly some driveline mods, but i will say that cat is the only manufacturer that will endorse the vts systems, several other makes are scared of it for different reasons...most of the issues we had are minor and if you word it right fairly easy to get warranty coverage.

[Construct'O]

the vts ready package is actually somewhat of a marketing topic that is it a long story to get into...it is mostly some driveline mods, but i will say that cat is the only manufacturer that will endorse the vts systems, several other makes are scared of it for different reasons...most of the issues we had are minor and if you word it right fairly easy to get warranty coverage.

On HEF the is a post of aguy that was going to buy a 262C skid and out the VTS system on it,but had a issue with speed of the machine with it on the CAT.

He wanted a 2-speed machine,but CAT wouldn't warranty the machine with the 2-speed machine using the VTS on it.

So he cancelled the order and got a Case 450 CTL,so Cat or the dealer dropped the ball on that one.

He was from ARK. I remember.:usflag:

[Construct'O]

Heres the thread............. http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=4547:usflag:

[AWJ Services]

Constuct,o remeber you are going too have too replace the tracks soon.
Factor that in the 10 to 12 k difference and it is a no brainer.
If I was offered the same deal I would take it tomorrow.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

Constuct,o remeber you are going too have too replace the tracks soon.
Factor that in the 10 to 12 k difference and it is a no brainer.
If I was offered the same deal I would take it tomorrow.It is a good deal, but I would also factor waiting next year on pressurized cab. Tough decision. I sell new solid deal rubber installed $3600.00.

[AWJ Services]

It is a good deal, but I would also factor waiting next year on pressurized cab. Tough decision. I sell new solid deal rubber installed $3600.00.

I also wonder at what point my older machine will become undesirable and harder too sell which will result in a much lower value because of upgrades in the newer machines?

Being on the owner side of things rather than the sales side I may be wrong in my assumption.

It always seems that machines seem to be at there max value(used) at between 2 and 3 years and under a 1000 hours in relation too the average finance plans.

[Construct'O]

AWJ My machine has the three year warranty,and was wanting to finance it for only three years ,so it would be paid for at the time the warranty was out.At the time i bought like 8 attachment also with the machine.

Soooo ! With the low interest at the time on the machine and attachments i had to opt for another year of financing,making the term 4 years,instead 3 like i wanted too.

I wanted to get the machine paid for before trading this time, again because of the age thing.

I also just thought why trade now and next year the new cabs would be out and then you would kick yourself for not waiting ,so that is my idea also.

As for the track they are doing good not perfect ,by any means,but unless something really goes wrong ,should be able to make it until time i trade or will put the tracks on at which time it would be the soliddeal tracks.

That is my thought ,i was just trying to compare my deal to Ironplanet deal that KSSS posted,which i thought shows that not all CTL are loosing the above value,at least in my case.

I also do realize this is not a auction or firesale deal ,so that is a big difference also.

Evidently the saleman thinks he can sell my machine at a good value or he won't have made me the deal,thats the way i see it because he is trading to resell.:usflag:

[AWJ Services]

It is always tough too determine when too sale.
I was more thinking out loud too get other peoples opinions as well.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this as well.

Conventional tracked machines will not take the hit that the Cat stuff is taking.
Which I think your machine reitterates that point.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

I also wonder at what point my older machine will become undesirable and harder too sell which will result in a much lower value because of upgrades in the newer machines?

Being on the owner side of things rather than the sales side I may be wrong in my assumption.

It always seems that machines seem to be at there max value(used) at between 2 and 3 years and under a 1000 hours in relation too the average finance plans.
Trading CTL's are still new to me, but I would have to be able to sell it for at least 10 to 15 grand less. Low financing on new vs. used is the main reason, slightly down market is another although I am down on used inventory now and business is picking up since we are ending the recession and weather is starting to break. Tracks would have to be in great shape. Profit margins are not high enough to book much profit in the trade. Any way that is why I think he offered you a good deal.

[AWJ Services]

Trading CTL's are still new to me, but I would have to be able to sell it for at least 10 to 15 grand less. Low financing on new vs. used is the main reason, slightly down market is another although I am down on used inventory now and business is picking up since we are ending the recession and weather is starting to break. Tracks would have to be in great shape. Profit margins are not high enough to book much profit in the trade. Any way that is why I think he offered you a good deal.

Being we are both from the same general area the economy played a large part in my comments.
The financing comes into play as well.
I have been shopping for an excavator and finally got what I think is a favorable deal on a immaculate 2006 machine.
I was faced with low interest rates on new and the sale price on used.
You just about have too save 30% over the new sale price too get in a favorable situation.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

Being we are both from the same general area the economy played a large part in my comments.
The financing comes into play as well.
I have been shopping for an excavator and finally got what I think is a favorable deal on a immaculate 2006 machine.
I was faced with low interest rates on new and the sale price on used.
You just about have too save 30% over the new sale price too get in a favorable situation.I think you are right. That means the dealer has to give less. By the time we service and recondition to resale and still try to make a little profit it is hard to give a whole lot especialy if the track have 600 or more hours wear.

[ksss]

I personally am not a big believer on the CTL/MTL's no matter what the brand, they have there place and are nice but how do they earn their keep? The maintenance costs and the depreciation are scary. I have done alot of varied projects and it hasn't hurt us to have a wheeled skid or to use the over the tire tracks. Ksss, you have been there and done that yet you run wheeled units, what are your thoughts? You guys that are running rubber track machines, do you charge more? I find the different reasons interesting.


My situation here is the soil conditions are not all that favorable for a tracked machine. We don't get a lot of rain so it is usually dry, taking away some of the value of a CTl. It seems most that run a CTL are landscapers and some tree guys that run spades. If I spent most of my time in topsoil I might think differently. Very few CTLs that do excavating, due to the rocky ground.

I swapped a guy out for a couple days, he has a 70XT with VTS which I used and he used my 465 to set rocks. The ability of that machine was impressive, very impressive. I decided that if the right deal came along I would get a set, but I was not interested in paying 13-15K. I also plan on getting into large scale concrete preparation, so working in 3/4 gravel with a 7' laser leveling box blade attachment would necessitate more traction. The deal came along so I bought them.

Our work is so varied that a dedicated CTL for me, would cost me more than it would make. I hold to my point that any time your using a CTL in an application that could be done equally efficient with a wheeled machine (you could likely make an arguement that perhaps down to 15-20% less efficient would still benifit a wheeled machine depending on application), your spending money you don't need to be. The costs are more than just wear and tear but in depreciation as well. I would like to have a machine that I could leave the VTS on, and maybe if things allow for it this year, that might be possible.

So I guess having options for tracks (I have steel tracks for the 465) on both of my machines gives me a lot of flexibility. However a single dedicated CTL would not be in the cards for me.

[ksss]

the vts ready package is actually somewhat of a marketing topic that is it a long story to get into...it is mostly some driveline mods, but i will say that cat is the only manufacturer that will endorse the vts systems, several other makes are scared of it for different reasons...most of the issues we had are minor and if you word it right fairly easy to get warranty coverage.


I think some of the reason is the Cat affiliation with Loegren. No one wants to help fed the competetion. That I think will change with the change of ownership. The other is no one has designed a wheeled machine to take the stress that a VTS system can put on machine. The 440 with a weight of around 7000 putting down 85 hp and 263 or 288 foot pounds depending on series is a lot of power in a smaller machine. They obviously rely on some slipping at the wheels to protect themselves if pushed to far. The VTS takes the slip out of the equation and adds 1600 pounds per side to the machine. As a result apparently is the snapping of axles. I am sure that when it was designed no one said "lets run all the hp through one set of axles attach it to a set of tracks and see what breaks". However as the VTS system gains more ground the OEMs are forced to accept the fact that VTS applications are possible. CAT apparently learned that by not backing the idea of two speed on VTS equipped machines. I also read that thread on HEF. The heavier built machines are better equipped to handle the stress, than the high hp smaller machines. The 465 machines weigh around 9K and are very heavily built and are able to handle the stress much better. I plan on being smart in its application. I think with a little common sense goes along way when running a VTS machine.

[dozerman21]

Constructo- Sounds like a pretty descent deal, but I would wait for the pressurized cab if it was me. Your tracks look a little better than mine, but I have to run in more than dirt. I should be able to get close to 1,000 hours out of them. I'm thinking of getting the Solideals and installing them myself. I bet you could get a similar deal next year, plus get the pressurized cab.:weightlifter:

[RockSet N' Grade]

OR Constructo........you could go on a steady diet of beans, but the machine now, and pressurize the cab yourself!:dizzy:

[Fieldman12]

Sounds like a good deal to me Construct'O. As others have said though you may want to wait for the pressureized cab. On a second not though you may try to get a rough idea how much they would take off if you kept your machine another year and traded for one with the pressurized cab and E/H next year. If it depreciates the same amount or less that could be the better deal. You may also run by them what if I do trade for this machine now and next year I decide to trade it in for the one with the pressurized cab. What kinda deal would that be for ya. Well, anyway just some things to think about. As for the VTS I really am impressed by it. At the Cat booth at the Farm machinery show they was pushing both the VTS and the regular Cat/ASV undercarriage.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

All you guys with 18" VTS track system. I sold a set of Solid Deal tracks that fit a CT332 today to put on a Cat with VTS. My mechanic wants to kick my butt. They are a pain in the rear to install. I priced them installed. May loose my butt. I will let you know how long it talks to install.

[Dustin1]

The tracks are a pain to install on a vts system. They are well worth it. You should charge enough to put them on.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

I think I will come out ok. I told him I may have to go up on his other two machines though. He was very un-happy. He only got 550 hours on his origional rubber.

[bobcat_ron]

550 hours???? On the Solid Deals???

[JDSKIDSTEER]

No...VTS origional rubber. Not sure what brand rubber.

[bobcat_ron]

I always thought ASV made the rubber for the VTS?

[JDSKIDSTEER]

I always thought ASV made the rubber for the VTS?Maybe but the CT332 rubber is same size. I sell a lot of Solid deal and no complaints.

[RockSet N' Grade]

JDSkidder.......550 hrs on origional tracks? Please find out some more info if you can please....what kind of work? material types and surfaces worked on? employee or owner driven?. I am most curious......

[JDSKIDSTEER]

Hispanics workers. Hard southern red dirt. Factory tracks on Bobcat's, Hoochie mamas, and Deere's get 850 to 1200 hours on large frame machines in our area.

[Dustin1]

I have had good luck with the solideals. I know they have their own rubber plant in europe. It is high quality. I am not sure who makes the track for VTS.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

I have sold a lot of solid deal for many brand of loaders. Not sure if they will last longer or not, but I like the ride they give. They do not vibrate the machine to death.

[Dustin1]

Weah, the new tread pattern they came out with make a big diff. from the taditional track such as Bobat, Mustang, and JD. I have heard cust say the like how they handle on slopes too.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

Me too. I have been trying to get Deere to offer them as a option.

[Dustin1]

I have been trying to get Mustang to offer them as an option two. I have had a couple of people who don't want the standard tracks. They want the Solideal's. Then your stuck with a set of new factory tracks. The big corp have a hard time listening to dealers. Maybe someday they will.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

I have been trying to get Mustang to offer them as an option two. I have had a couple of people who don't want the standard tracks. They want the Solideal's. Then your stuck with a set of new factory tracks. The big corp have a hard time listening to dealers. Maybe someday they will.
Tell me about it.

[Digdeep]

I always thought ASV made the rubber for the VTS?

Nope. Loaegering uses a South Korean track. I think they are called Tareuk or something like that. ASV does not make tracks with any steel in them.

[Digdeep]

I have been trying to get Mustang to offer them as an option two. I have had a couple of people who don't want the standard tracks. They want the Solideal's. Then your stuck with a set of new factory tracks. The big corp have a hard time listening to dealers. Maybe someday they will.

It's a good possibility that they(Mustang or Takeuchi) already tested them and determined that they don't last as long as the Bridgestones. Based on selling machines with Bridgestones and having customers put other brands on such as Avon, Solideal, etc. I still think that Bridgestones are the better track even if they don't offer the smoother ride.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

It's a good possibility that they(Mustang or Takeuchi) already tested them and determined that they don't last as long as the Bridgestones. Based on selling machines with Bridgestones and having customers put other brands on such as Avon, Solideal, etc. I still think that Bridgestones are the better track even if they don't offer the smoother ride.
It's a good possibility they have not got out here in the real world and asked our customers how they are holding up. I have sold about 20 sets and they are fine. If Picasso is reading this he can tell us how many hours is on his
CT332. They were the first set I sold and they were put on when the machine had 850 hours.

[BOBCATZZ]

I am running solideals and they are lasting good 1200 hours now one track is on its way out but lasted 350 hours more than the bridgstones that came one the TL150

PS (please dont take offence cat owners)at least 400+ hours have been spent running along constructing banks at 3/1 and4/1 grades wich really put some pressure on tracks and it never detracked unlike the cat that i was working beside for awhile (theguy actually pulled out of the job saying his machine wasnt copping)
so as far as the solideal debate go's i'm exclusively using solideal from now on .

[Digdeep]

I am running solideals and they are lasting good 1200 hours now one track is on its way out but lasted 350 hours more than the bridgstones that came one the TL150

PS (please dont take offence cat owners)at least 400+ hours have been spent running along constructing banks at 3/1 and4/1 grades wich really put some pressure on tracks and it never detracked unlike the cat that i was working beside for awhile (theguy actually pulled out of the job saying his machine wasnt copping)
so as far as the solideal debate go's i'm exclusively using solideal from now on .

Was the CAT machine you were working on the job site with a 277?

[Digdeep]

It's a good possibility they have not got out here in the real world and asked our customers how they are holding up. I have sold about 20 sets and they are fine. If Picasso is reading this he can tell us how many hours is on his
CT332. They were the first set I sold and they were put on when the machine had 850 hours.

It's a definite possibility. I can remember banging my head against a wall for what seemed like forever wondering why Bobcat wouldn't make changes that we felt were necessary in the field. It's also a possibility that John Deere and some of the other manufacturers did test the other tracks and determined that the Bridgestone tracks last longer in the widest range of applications and soil conditions.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

It's a definite possibility. I can remember banging my head against a wall for what seemed like forever wondering why Bobcat wouldn't make changes that we felt were necessary in the field. It's also a possibility that John Deere and some of the other manufacturers did test the other tracks and determined that the Bridgestone tracks last longer in the widest range of applications and soil conditions.Thats why they should offer as a dealer specified option.

[Digdeep]

Thats why they should offer as a dealer specified option.

That would be nice if they could do it. Who would cover the track warranty on a new machine, JD or Solideal and are the two track warranties identical? We may have this figured out for John Deere before they make a decision.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

That would be nice if they could do it. Who would cover the track warranty on a new machine, JD or Solideal and are the two track warranties identical? We may have this figured out for John Deere before they make a decision.
On tires Deere offer's Solid Deal and sends us for warranty to Solid Deal. I am sure they will do the same with Bridgestone tracks.

[BOBCATZZ]

No it was a 287 aparently he told the contractor i work for that it is the biggest compact track loader you can hire .Compared to the tl150 the cat just didnt seem as strong as the TAKA .
The machine derailed at least 5 times.