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View Full Version : Rider on Sprayer Calibration... I dont get it?


Terraformer
04-10-2008, 03:28 PM
I'm in the market for one of them fancy, expensive, ride-on units, but whenever I look at the sprayer spec's they run 30 - 35 oz. per 1000 sq. ft. (Example: PG Magnum is 30 oz.). Here's the part I don't get... maybe it's me. I use many of PBI/Gordon's herbicides and most of them require a minimum of 1/2 gallon of water, per 1000 sq. ft., to deliver the herbicide. If I was to mix based on the sprayer capability, 30 oz. per 1000 sq. ft., technically I would be breaking the law.

I'm just using PG as an example, not picking on them. Some of the forthcoming ride-on's are also similar in volume. To get the proper rate, going slower than 3.5 MPH doesn't seem like an option - nor does it make sense for productivity! Can changing the tip to more than double the rate solve the legal issue? Seems like a stretch for a 2 GPM pump especially if you require agitation.

What am I missing? What are you guys doing? Do you just work within the limitations?

Thanks

GravelyGuy
04-10-2008, 04:00 PM
I wondered the same thing when I first started reading about the ride on sprayers.

From what I get out of it, these guys make low volume applications a higher rate of active ingredient, which is technically going against the label, but they do it IPM style.

grassman177
04-10-2008, 04:03 PM
there has been alot of stink about those machines in the goveerment. they do break the law as far as label rates go on most herbicides. the zspray gives you a choice of nozzles and we got 1.5 to 3 gpm nozzles or whatever the sizes were. anyways, we use the ones that give is a 1/2 gal per 1000 rate at the speed we are traveling. this keeps is within range.

Homer52
04-10-2008, 04:34 PM
PBI Gordon's Trimec 992 for example has a range of 5 to 220 gal per acre, which works out to .115 gal per 1000 square feet, or 14.72 oz per 1000 squaare feet. Works great in my Turf Tracker Time Machine.

Terraformer
04-10-2008, 04:38 PM
Gravelguy and Grassman - thanks for the quick reply. For a moment I was thinking I slipped a gear. I spent all last night thinking about this and it was bugging me. I knew that Z-spray offered higher volumes and for that reason didn't use it as an example. However, if a wanted to spray a 5 MPH it appears the Z would be pushed too - I'll look at it again.

It really gripes me that manufacturers, existing and upcoming, of ride-on sprayer's expect people to pay $5,000 plus for equipment that not legal. I know that carrying 20 gallons of water/mix - for a measly 10K - is an egineering and manufacturing problem for them, but who's going to pay the fine when an applicator get busted? Alternatively they could lobby chemical companies and the EPA to get the laws changed for low volume spraying. Doing nothing is NOT acceptable!

Guess I crabby... it's been raining for days here!

Terraformer
04-10-2008, 04:58 PM
PBI Gordon's Trimec 992 for example has a range of 5 to 220 gal per acre, which works out to .115 gal per 1000 square feet, or 14.72 oz per 1000 squaare feet. Works great in my Turf Tracker Time Machine.

Homer you are correct about 992, and that is why I didn't say "all" PBI/Gordon products. That said... if Tupersan needed to be added to the 992mix; a very common thing to do, or use it standalone, it still wouldn't be legal under the scenario I described earlier. I don't know about the Time Machine's capabilities.

sclawndr
04-10-2008, 05:26 PM
You're on label if you apply within the recommended rate per thousand square feet and if you follow the guidelines for handling, storage and disposal. The amount of water you spray with is a recommendation for maximum efficacy. The law only says that you have to use it in a manner consistent with the label, which the low volume spray equipment does.

That said, you can upgrade a PG to spray 1 gallon per thousand if you'd prefer. A lot of people like to spray more volume to try to increase coverage. The effectiveness of the mix will depend more on the specific gravity of the product than anything else.

Terraformer
04-10-2008, 06:02 PM
You're on label if you apply within the recommended rate per thousand square feet and if you follow the guidelines for handling, storage and disposal. The amount of water you spray with is a recommendation for maximum efficacy. The law only says that you have to use it in a manner consistent with the label, which the low volume spray equipment does.

That said, you can upgrade a PG to spray 1 gallon per thousand if you'd prefer. A lot of people like to spray more volume to try to increase coverage. The effectiveness of the mix will depend more on the specific gravity of the product than anything else.

I understand your point and will agree there are some grey areas in EPA law... gee go figure! However, in good'ol Wisconsin they harp on "the label is the law" at every turn. Since many products are specific as to the minimum and maximum amout of carrier/water required for an application, not following ithe label could be construed as a violation.

Here's a recent example how far things are being taken, and I quote "If you pour boiling water onto ants that makes it a pesticide, and if you don't follow all certification, licensing, notification and posting laws you have broken the law." Good one huh!

pieperlc
04-10-2008, 08:55 PM
You're right being limited in what you can spray with the low volume ride-ons. If you need higher volume, than a ride-on isn't for you. There are numerous herbicides that you can use low volume. Trimec 992 and speedzone are the herbicides of choice for me since buying the perma green. There are other herbicides out there that can be used at the low volume rates if you do a little research you may find more than you expect. I believe lesco has one or two that they label. I am a little leary on using something in the PG that is labeled for a higher volume. I think the Dept of Ag would have no problem giving anybody a ticket for that. It probably depends on the mood of the enforcement officer. As far as pre-emergent herbicides go, a ride-on isn't designed to spray those chemicals. If you need that capability, don't spend the money for a ride-on.

rcreech
04-10-2008, 10:19 PM
Terraformer,

I was good talking to you tonight! I am posting on here my points on this topic as I am a very big advocate of low volume spraying.

As we discussed, when following the law it depends on what product you are using.

Very few labels state you MUST use a min or max gallons/K. MOST labels state a RECOMMENED rate.

The difference is.....if a label states that there is a minimum then the your state MAY say you are off label. But if it DOES NOT state a minimum then it is fair game.

When talking to my state guys they could care less about the amount of carrier used for a prouduct. They ONLY care about the AI/given area.

The less water you use the better. That is less you have to handle and also less time filling.

If you are using a product with a minimum gallons on the label my recommendation is to swith to a product that doesn't contain a min. gallons!

Also, as we discussed contact you state and ask them point blank and see what they say.
You may be worrying about nothing as the state may not care about the volume of carrier just like ours here in OH.

Let us know what you guys learn. I think it would be neat to see how the stated differ on this topic.

LawnandOrder
08-17-2008, 08:05 PM
But, compounds for pre-emergent applications are still not going to work through a low volume system?

jspray
08-17-2008, 11:31 PM
Several points please:

1. Regulatory agencies are interested in a. i. per ac.

2. Systemics work better at low volume.

3. A quality nozzle arrangement will make a quality low vol. application.

4. If you want to make a profit, consider water as your enemy.

We generally use 5-7 gpa with our ride-on sprayers and 16 gpa with aluminum push unit. Our sprayers can be seen at proedgesprayers.com. Aluminum push is upgrade of steel unit shown as PE-B.

We have sprayed golf courses with 5 gpa for 25 years with our large boom units. Low volume will work for you.

Grandview
08-18-2008, 07:54 AM
But, compounds for pre-emergent applications are still not going to work through a low volume system?

Do you know of any studies that support that statement?

rcreech
08-18-2008, 07:07 PM
Several points please:

1. Regulatory agencies are interested in a. i. per ac.

2. Systemics work better at low volume.

3. A quality nozzle arrangement will make a quality low vol. application.

4. If you want to make a profit, consider water as your enemy.

We generally use 5-7 gpa with our ride-on sprayers and 16 gpa with aluminum push unit. Our sprayers can be seen at proedgesprayers.com. Aluminum push is upgrade of steel unit shown as PE-B.

We have sprayed golf courses with 5 gpa for 25 years with our large boom units. Low volume will work for you.

We have had this topic come up several times...and this is the best and clearest post I have seen~!

Totally agree with your post! Espeically as water being the enemy! Why "pour" the water on, when it isn't needed. Effeciency is the key and that means low volume application!

americanlawn
08-18-2008, 07:21 PM
The standard nozzle that comes with our new ride-on puts out over 32 oz per 1000 sq ft (when the nozzle is new), but we have also used the next larger nozzle size (on really weedy lawns)....it puts out nearly twice the amount per 1000 sq ft. Our unit has enough pump capacity to do this. BTW, as nozzles get used more & more (worn in), they spray more gallons per minute.

I'm in the market for one of them fancy, expensive, ride-on units, but whenever I look at the sprayer spec's they run 30 - 35 oz. per 1000 sq. ft. (Example: PG Magnum is 30 oz.). Here's the part I don't get... maybe it's me. I use many of PBI/Gordon's herbicides and most of them require a minimum of 1/2 gallon of water, per 1000 sq. ft., to deliver the herbicide. If I was to mix based on the sprayer capability, 30 oz. per 1000 sq. ft., technically I would be breaking the law.

I'm just using PG as an example, not picking on them. Some of the forthcoming ride-on's are also similar in volume. To get the proper rate, going slower than 3.5 MPH doesn't seem like an option - nor does it make sense for productivity! Can changing the tip to more than double the rate solve the legal issue? Seems like a stretch for a 2 GPM pump especially if you require agitation.

What am I missing? What are you guys doing? Do you just work within the limitations?

Thanks

LawnandOrder
08-18-2008, 09:38 PM
Yes, those look prefect, but I would need a hose/gun system. And what spreader set ups would you suggest?


1. Regulatory agencies are interested in a. i. per ac.

2. Systemics work better at low volume.

3. A quality nozzle arrangement will make a quality low vol. application.

4. If you want to make a profit, consider water as your enemy.

We generally use 5-7 gpa with our ride-on sprayers and 16 gpa with aluminum push unit. Our sprayers can be seen at proedgesprayers.com. Aluminum push is upgrade of steel unit shown as PE-B.

We have sprayed golf courses with 5 gpa for 25 years with our large boom units. Low volume will work for you.[/QUOTE]

q

jspray
08-20-2008, 08:20 AM
We put out 2000 lbs. of prodiamine this season at 5 gal/ac. Have applied pre at low volume for 25 years.
Today even, we are applying prodiamine on 120 ac course at 5 gal./ac.
We hate water--you should too.

jspray
08-20-2008, 08:35 AM
This is a good professional question as to studies on low volume applications. I know of no praticular research to note.
We have our own experience to note--we will continue to save time and money with low volume.
Water is your enemy!

jspray
08-20-2008, 08:42 AM
To: rcreech

Thank you!

Bill J.