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View Full Version : Whats last longer till it rains? Granular or liquid pre-m?


sedge
04-20-2008, 01:10 PM
Based on the 2 examples below, what one lasts longer of each example if after application, it doesn't rain for 2 or 3 weeks and there is no irrigation?

Pendi granular fert like (PRE-M 0.86% 25-2-5 30%PPSCU) or pendi liquid. What one will have the better control and why?

Using Dimension granular fert like (DIMENSION 0.10% 19-0-6 30%PPSCU) or Dimension in a liquid app. What one will have better control and why?

After you have answered what one of each is best, what is better of those 2?

The reason I'm asking is we have a very large account that does not irrigate and they have some serious sand bur issues. They want them controlled. Granular is faster and easier to apply to such a large account I am thinking, but liquid is more even. However, I am thinking that the liquid apps will break down faster in the sun without rain, then the granular ones will. I can also apply the peni or dimen with chemical only and not any fert. I am thinking of applying this every 6 weeks all summer long, to get it under control as long as I stay under the total ai for the year of each. Since we will be applying every 6 weeks, I think the over all coverage of the granular will be very good.

Thanx

olive123
04-20-2008, 01:15 PM
why not kill them off with a post first?

Ric
04-20-2008, 02:19 PM
Sedge

Granular last for a long time in the bag. Why wouldn't it last a little longer on the Turf??? Granules require water to activate them. Morning dew will cause minor activation and some loss. But the water is also a carrier that helps distribute the Pre Emerge

sedge
04-20-2008, 03:02 PM
why not kill them off with a post first?

I will with what Ric mentioned before, I think it is.5oz of round up. First app will be liquid.

Sedge

Granular last for a long time in the bag. Why wouldn't it last a little longer on the Turf??? Granules require water to activate them. Morning dew will cause minor activation and some loss. But the water is also a carrier that helps distribute the Pre Emerge

Thanx for replying Ric, I was hoping you would chime in, thanx.

Liquid lasts a long time also in the jug, but once applied, everything else being equal, what will last or do the best job over all? I think your saying you think the granular will do a better job, as it will just sit there till it rains, right?

But will the sunlight break down the prill coated with herbicide as fast as it will with liquid?

Is the prill just coated, or is it in the slurry when the prill was made?

How many prills per pound with a SGN of 230?

What would any of you guys use?

Thanx again

americanlawn
04-20-2008, 03:38 PM
Liquid products breakdown whether it rains or not (solar degradation + oxidation). Coated granular products do not. Re-entry statement on most liquid pesticides = wait 'til it dries. Re-entry statement on most granular products = there isn't any. If it doesn't rain for two months, are people supposed to stay off their lawn for 2 months?:laugh:

Bottom line: slow-release granular products last longer, but liquid app's offer more exact coverage. So there are pro's & cons. (unless you're really good at using a deflector shield).

sedge
04-20-2008, 04:27 PM
Liquid products breakdown whether it rains or not (solar degradation + oxidation). Coated granular products do not. Re-entry statement on most liquid pesticides = wait 'til it dries. Re-entry statement on most granular products = there isn't any. If it doesn't rain for two months, are people supposed to stay off their lawn for 2 months?:laugh:

Thanx for the reply.

Yes, but we are not talking re-entry. I would suggest that re-entry has nothing to do with the long term effect.

Bottom line: slow-release granular products last longer, but liquid app's offer more exact coverage. So there are pro's & cons. (unless you're really good at using a deflector shield).

I agree with you if, if, if the pre-emergent is in the prill mix and not just coated on the prill. Do you or any one else know for sure?

Any one know about how many prills of SGN 230 per pound?

Marcos
04-20-2008, 05:09 PM
Bottom line: slow-release granular products last longer, but liquid app's offer more exact coverage. So there are pro's & cons. (unless you're really good at using a deflector shield).

You are incorrect in your statement about granular SCU fertilizer combos with Pre-M (or whatever...)

The sulfur (and "poly" coating, in the cases of the better quality products) are encapsulated around a certain % of the urea content of the bag (25%, 30%, 50%...or whatever the case may be) BEFORE any Pre-M active ingredient is impregnated onto the prills.

And when the Pre-M (or whatever control product) is finally added later...it is added to all components of the bag, not just the "N" !

The main reason for this... is that the "poly coating" (in other words...the "microscopically thin PLASTIC coating") used over-top of the sulfur coating simply isn't chemically compatible with the lion's share of the A.I. in most control products used in fert combos.

americanlawn
04-20-2008, 05:12 PM
No kidding. I threw that in cuz it's also an advantage (customer friendly). We're using a 50% SCU granular fert w/Barricade this year. It should last longer than liquid. We used LESCO's 19-0-8 w/Dimension last year and had nice results (good product).

Marcos
04-20-2008, 05:47 PM
No kidding. I threw that in cuz it's also an advantage (customer friendly). We're using a 50% SCU granular fert w/Barricade this year. It should last longer than liquid. We used LESCO's 19-0-8 w/Dimension last year and had nice results (good product).

In my opinion prodiamine (often) lasts too long in the soil structure.

If you have to go in and do some renovation work...after an extended drought situation kills out stressed-out dormant turf...you'll often find that you'll get little or no seed germination in the early fall, following a spring application of Barricade !!

As a matter of fact...whenever I "take over" any accounts in midsummer that cancel somebody else for whatever reason...and they end up needing seeding work come end of July-early Aug...I always do some research as to what type of pre-emergent was used by the "other company" in their 1st and/or 2nd apps that year...so I don't waste my time renovating and seeding ground (likely) for no good result.
___________



I used to use Pre-M granular years ago.
Now I've gone all liquid "everything" since 2002 and use Dimension WSP in split apps....but only around sidewalk and driveway perimeters, and on lawns that are too thin to prevent crabgrass / spurge / purslane, etc naturally.

The goal I have for my customer's lawns...and one I try to help instill into every customer (billpayer's) mind...is a goal of having a lawn that is too healthy and dense to allow weeds to successfully compete.

My philosophy is that I look for a "buy in" to this customer-vendor type of relationship of cooperation...and I'm not afraid of turning away, and referring to other local LCOS, prospects who we deem are high risk of not being longer-term clients ...or otherwise those folks who we feel we'd rather not deal with from the get-go.

sedge
04-20-2008, 09:48 PM
No kidding. I threw that in cuz it's also an advantage (customer friendly). We're using a 50% SCU granular fert w/Barricade this year. It should last longer than liquid. We used LESCO's 19-0-8 w/Dimension last year and had nice results (good product).

I like Barricade, but no control for sand-burs, so must be pendi or dimension.

In my opinion prodiamine (often) lasts too long in the soil structure.

If you have to go in and do some renovation work...after an extended drought situation kills out stressed-out dormant turf...you'll often find that you'll get little or no seed germination in the early fall, following a spring application of Barricade !!

As a matter of fact...whenever I "take over" any accounts in midsummer that cancel somebody else for whatever reason...and they end up needing seeding work come end of July-early Aug...I always do some research as to what type of pre-emergent was used by the "other company" in their 1st and/or 2nd apps that year...so I don't waste my time renovating and seeding ground (likely) for no good result.
___________



I used to use Pre-M granular years ago.
Now I've gone all liquid "everything" since 2002 and use Dimension WSP in split apps....but only around sidewalk and driveway perimeters, and on lawns that are too thin to prevent crabgrass / spurge / purslane, etc naturally.

We looked at that exact product, but it is really expensive. I think it is over $1.00 per k.

The goal I have for my customer's lawns...and one I try to help instill into every customer (billpayer's) mind...is a goal of having a lawn that is too healthy and dense to allow weeds to successfully compete.

I agree, but here we have a lot of commercial/some residential lots that are not irrigated, thus the chance of having a really dense turf is not very good. We have to rely more so on chemical applications to keep them as weed free as possible.

My philosophy is that I look for a "buy in" to this customer-vendor type of relationship of cooperation...and I'm not afraid of turning away, and referring to other local LCOS, prospects who we deem are high risk of not being longer-term clients ...or otherwise those folks who we feel we'd rather not deal with from the get-go.

Thanx for the replies.

We are dealing with bermuda, so no renovating in the fall is needed. In fact, the longer lasting the pre-m, the better.

I gather from what you both have said, is the granular pre-m whether dimension or pendi, will last longer in the soil with granular then liquid, since they don't have irrigation and rainfall is hap hazard here in the warmer months?

teeca
04-20-2008, 10:19 PM
i'm a liquid guy, but will have to admit that liquid apps can have volitalization (mainley in insecticides) and do require watering in (according to the lable). the cool thing about living in the mid-west is being able to apply your pre-m's in the spring and having them watered in by good old mother nature. weed control is another thing!

yardprospraying
04-21-2008, 12:08 AM
I like Barricade, but no control for sand-burs, so must be pendi or dimension.



Thanx for the replies.

We are dealing with bermuda, so no renovating in the fall is needed. In fact, the longer lasting the pre-m, the better.

I gather from what you both have said, is the granular pre-m whether dimension or pendi, will last longer in the soil with granular then liquid, since they don't have irrigation and rainfall is hap hazard here in the warmer months?

Sedge,

Granular wont necessarily last longer in the soil, it might last longer until watered in, simply because most of the prills will be out of direct sunlight as compared to the liquid being mostly "on top" of the grass. If you want a better pre-emergent for sandburs, why not use surflan. If you are dealing with bermuda, it works a whole lot better than p-meth. We used p-meth for years trying to control sandburs, and had poor results later in the summer months. We would do two apps. and still have breakthrough. We switched to surflan 2 yrs ago for sandburs, and have had excellent results. We do two apps. about 10 weeks appart, and get season long control.

We don't do any granular pre-m apps, we do all liquid, but I can see how it would be easier on applying it over spraying.

John..

vegomatic40
04-21-2008, 08:40 AM
It's been a long time since I used pendimethalin in either granular or liquid form but I do remember a long discussion with the manufacturer regarding solar degradation. As best as I remember it begins to degrade in as little as 48 hrs of being applied in either form if not watered in. I don't think I would base the efficacy of the product on the re-entry statement on the label. This is simply info. provided by the manufacturer for safety reasons unless otherwise stated (I've yet to see that).

Marcos
04-21-2008, 02:30 PM
It's been a long time since I used pendimethalin in either granular or liquid form but I do remember a long discussion with the manufacturer regarding solar degradation. As best as I remember it begins to degrade in as little as 48 hrs of being applied in either form if not watered in. I don't think I would base the efficacy of the product on the re-entry statement on the label. This is simply info. provided by the manufacturer for safety reasons unless otherwise stated (I've yet to see that).

This is exactly one of the key reasons why BASF came out with "Pendulum Aquacap" a few years ago.....that, and the reduced capacity of it staining as well, as long as it's "rinsed off" (of whatever) in a reasonable amount of time.

I LOVE Pre-M Aquacap...but I use it exclusively in the landscape.