PDA

View Full Version : Echo!!!!!!!!!!!!!


EMJ
04-25-2008, 07:10 PM
I have mostly echo handhelds all about a year old. The problem I am having is they are hard starting when hot. I start them let the warm up a little bit at the first job, and they run fine. Get to the next house, they have been sitting on the rack in the trailer for about 15 minute. Go to start them, they will only start on choke. Open choke try to run full throttle and they die. Will only restart on full choke. They will idle but die when trying full throttle. They rev up then act like they ran out of gas. After about 3-5 mins they start to run fine with no problems. Could I be having some kind of vapor lock problem? Any help would be appreciated. Thank you

briggs33
04-25-2008, 10:22 PM
I just fixed this problem on my echo srm-2100 trimmer and i found out that there is a screen in the muffler and they sometimes clog (mainly 2-stroke) and don't let the the exhaust gases out enough to let it throttle up. So take the muffler of and take it apart and either clean the screen or buy a new muffler. i had an extra laying around and it fixed mine, good luck!

peak2p2000
04-26-2008, 02:16 AM
while you have that muffler off look into the exhaust port and clean out the carbon deposits.

Happy Frog
04-26-2008, 02:32 AM
Once you got the above done, replace your spark plug by an E3 spark plug (ref. 3.12) with the electrode gap set at 0.025".
I reduced the warm up time of my two PAS-265 to a few seconds just by doing this.

rclopez1118
04-26-2008, 09:34 AM
It`s an Echo!...there the only brand I know that pulls this kind of stuff. Carb problems are their specialty, and vibrating apart.

Happy Frog
04-26-2008, 01:52 PM
It`s an Echo!...there the only brand I know that pulls this kind of stuff. Carb problems are their specialty, and vibrating apart.

I may question the extend of your knowledge then... :laugh:

Tider6972
04-26-2008, 02:16 PM
I may question the extend of your knowledge then... :laugh:

I don't think there's really any question, 'Frog ! lol

rclopez1118
04-26-2008, 02:44 PM
I know your not questioning my knowledge froggy? Over 25 years in this business and certified for Echo, Shindaiwa, and Stihl to name a few. Just telling you what my experience has been, and Echo schools telling us in `93 to use locktite when assembling units. Don`t be disrespectful..or a Pinhead!

Tider6972
04-26-2008, 04:10 PM
rclopez, Echo carbs are problems you say? Aren't those same carburetors used on other brands as well? Are you saying they give problems on Echo but not on the other brands?

Do other brands not build up carbon on spark arrestors??

And fasteners don't vibrate loose on other brands??

We all have brand preferences and that's OK. I only have one Echo hand held blower, the cheapest model. I use Redmax and Shindaiwa; I like red !

rclopez1118
04-26-2008, 04:37 PM
Yes,...only carb on Echo have more trouble for what ever reason that may be.
Yes,..carbon will build up on spark arrestors on other brands too, but not due to the carb,..and no,..most other brands hold up longer than Echo.

Happy Frog
04-26-2008, 05:13 PM
I must have misread all the posts of people having carb problems on other brands then... :rolleyes:
I don't believe my earlier comment being disrespectful, do you?
When you write that echo is the only brand you know having carb problems then, yes, I may question your knowledge or as it appears here, your integrity or honesty on that matter.
As it is for Locktite recommendation. It is good practice to use a tread lock on assemblies subject to vibrations and it should be used on other brands as well.
The fact is that good combustion and carbon build up on two strokes engines is tightly linked to the type of gas, oil and oil ratio being used.
On a properly factory adjusted carb, carbon build up is normal and should be removed periodically as per recommended maintenance schedule.
Some users found that using 89 octane or better (as recommended by Echo) and Amsoil Saber Pro at 80:1 almost eliminate this requirement.
Before bashing Echo which is of no help what so ever to EMJ, I would have like you asking him a few questions and try to help him with your 25 years of experience and multiple certifications.
And please, there is no need to call each other names. :cool2:

J.Gordon
04-26-2008, 05:23 PM
It`s an Echo!...there the only brand I know that pulls this kind of stuff. Carb problems are their specialty, and vibrating apart.

Vibrating apart! I havent ran them all but Echoís vibration seems to be very minimal compared to the others that I have ran.

Yes,...only carb on Echo have more trouble for what ever reason that may be.
Yes,..carbon will build up on spark arrestors on other brands too, but not due to the carb,..and no,..most other brands hold up longer than Echo.


Would you mind elaborating on the vibration, because this is the opposite of what I have found?

Iím sure there are others that may or may not last longer, but itís the hours the units have been used, not how old they are. So it would be hard to compare that without hour meters on them.

Maybe Iím lucky but I havenít had any carb problems from my Echoís and they have a lot of hours on them.

Since you slammed Echo, would you mind telling us what you use and why you prefer them? (Not just this brand sucks and this brands better.):hammerhead:

I like facts and am not brand loyal and am always looking for the best brand for my needs.

I donít like the fact that Echo doesnít put the horsepower in their specs and all the others do but my 260 seems to get the job done with power to spare.

And I think Echo is having a harder time with the EPA regulations than some of the others, but still no carb problems for me.

Tider6972
04-26-2008, 05:35 PM
Last I heard Echo was a front runner with EPA compliance. In fact, that technology was a factor in the merger with Shindaiwa.

EMJ
04-26-2008, 05:40 PM
Just for info, my Shindaiwa is doing the same type of thing, just not as bad. Thanks for all the info, I am going to check the exhaust tonight.

S DIAMOND
04-26-2008, 06:20 PM
EMJ, the variables that play in this are numerous, and since there is no model number posted, we will look at this from a "general 2-cycle engine" approach.

H. Frogg summed it up with two schools of thought. Maintenance, and fuel. Make sure you are following a routine per the owners manual: Plugs, air filter, fuel filter, spark arrester fuel mix, and FRESH fuel. Know this:

The manufacture relies on you to follow a strict maintenance routine for these units, because the EPA is choking the SH!T out of the OEMs, specifically, 2-cycle makers. Units made today are prone to more problems (running wise) because the carb settings are already lean from the factory, and the gas at the pump is ridiculous (not just price) but the alcohol content in it is increasing. This varies form state to state. The blended fuels are terrorizing small engines in general, but are worse for 2-cycles. Garbage in = Garbage out. It is crucial that you keep an eye on the fuel filter and spark arrester. IF the unit can't breath, it will not run well, if at all.

If you can rule out maintenance, then we can look into other problems mechanical. Again, with the blended fuels now, the diaphragms in these carbs don't stand much of a chance these days. Good luck. Keep us posted. :)

EMJ
04-26-2008, 08:13 PM
Well I checked the exhaust port and spark arrestor screen. Both looked like new. I am having the biggest problem with my Pb-251 blower. As for maintenance I only run echo brand oil with 89 octane rated gas. Maintenance, I use to be a mechanic, and I am very particular about maintenance. I am thinking this is more of a fuel/carb issue. If memory serves me right I think I had the same problem last year when the summer fuel started to come out. Only this year it seems worse. I was hoping for a common problem with a quick fix. But I guess not. So since it is still under warranty I think that I will let the dealer deal with it. Thanks for all the help.

js.lawn
04-26-2008, 08:23 PM
geeees i run all echos and don't have a problem just must be the people they certify to work on them when and if there is a problem

mowranger
04-26-2008, 09:17 PM
check the compression should be at least 90 psi or better, is there gas in the bubble? I have the same problem with my stihl trimmers and edgers starts great when cold and a problem all day, 3rd year with them and worn out! I am switching to echo trimmers and edgers this year!

rclopez1118
04-26-2008, 10:03 PM
ok, ok..everyone chill out! Froggy..i don`t believe anyone was calling names. My personal experience with Echo compared with other brands is not good. I currently in my shop have two srm-210, srm-260....4-bp-260 and maybe two other Echo units where the mufflers just fall apart, among other things. The "locktite" deal was recommended only by Echo. No other brands have that kind of info in there update schools that I know of. Shindaiwa, (who made the power heads for Echo in the past before they went on there own) Is a better trimmer and out sells any other brand here in south tx. Better balanced machine, and Stihl has more torque. Echo is however comming back with new "vortec" engine. However,...two of the new Pb-755 blowers have throttle cable problems of breaking. Note most of these problems are comming from commercial users.
Carbon build up on most trimmers also come from users removing the guard and letting the line run further than it should allowing the engine to run harder and bog down. Homeowners have the problem of carbon build up from not running it at full rpm to burn off the excess fuel.
We are a full line Echo only dealer and am trying to be positive about their product.
It gets very hot and the humidity is nasty in the summer. Other brands hold up better, but I hope Echo`s new line of products hold up well.
By the way,...you have great suggestions, and do appreciate the responses,..that goes for u too froggy.....nice ears!

ed2hess
04-26-2008, 10:54 PM
ok, ok..everyone chill out! Froggy..i don`t believe anyone was calling names. My personal experience with Echo compared with other brands is not good. I currently in my shop have two srm-210, srm-260....4-bp-260 and maybe two other Echo units where the mufflers just fall apart, among other things. The "locktite" deal was recommended only by Echo. No other brands have that kind of info in there update schools that I know of. Shindaiwa, (who made the power heads for Echo in the past before they went on there own) Is a better trimmer and out sells any other brand here in south tx. Better balanced machine, and Stihl has more torque. Echo is however comming back with new "vortec" engine. However,...two of the new Pb-755 blowers have throttle cable problems of breaking. Note most of these problems are comming from commercial users.
Carbon build up on most trimmers also come from users removing the guard and letting the line run further than it should allowing the engine to run harder and bog down. Homeowners have the problem of carbon build up from not running it at full rpm to burn off the excess fuel.
We are a full line Echo only dealer and am trying to be positive about their product.
It gets very hot and the humidity is nasty in the summer. Other brands hold up better, but I hope Echo`s new line of products hold up well.
By the way,...you have great suggestions, and do appreciate the responses,..that goes for u too froggy.....nice ears!

Something don't sound right concerning your experience with Echo..... is your technical training and support out of Outdoor power in George Town? None of those items are a significant problem and I have run and serviced a lot of units of different models over the years. And Echo outsells the other brands you mention by a very very large margin in Austin so I don't understand how things could be so different in your part of Texas. And regarding the new orange ones they are too darn heavy.

rclopez1118
04-27-2008, 01:04 AM
Yes my technical training is out of Georgetown, ....Buttery Hardware in Lano for Shindaiwa,..Blue mountain Equipment in Mckinney for Stihl which they can verify for me thank you. Speaking of technical,..how long have you been working on power equipment?
How long have you been in this period? My problems are what I face and may not be what u face in Austin. I have proof of this and have seen it enough to know. I`m regarded as the best in 2 cycle in the Corpus area by my fellow techs, and have respect for others on different parts of this field. Take my advice and dont disrespect me or question my knowledge if you have`nt done this for as long as me. You might learn something new too.

EMJ
04-27-2008, 07:22 AM
Yes my technical training is out of Georgetown, ....Buttery Hardware in Lano for Shindaiwa,..Blue mountain Equipment in Mckinney for Stihl which they can verify for me thank you. Speaking of technical,..how long have you been working on power equipment?
How long have you been in this period? My problems are what I face and may not be what u face in Austin. I have proof of this and have seen it enough to know. I`m regarded as the best in 2 cycle in the Corpus area by my fellow techs, and have respect for others on different parts of this field. Take my advice and dont disrespect me or question my knowledge if you have`nt done this for as long as me. You might learn something new too.
Thanks for the resume, But I am not looking to hire a mechanic or a spokesmen for what equipment I do not own. :clapping: I will pat you on your back, and give you a gold star for proclaiming yourself as the best. But you have been no help to me, so quit jacking this thread and go prove yourself to someone who can actually experience you work.:clapping: P.S. You must have a really big door at work. Now back on topic does anyone one have an idea or answer, other than my equipment is junk, or has anyone experienced this happening to them. When I start them cold, they run great. Put them away go to next account, they start but have a hard time revving up for a couple of minute then they are fine. (except for the PB-251) both my 261ts my 260 edger and even my shindaiwa c-4 blower are doing this. They start right up then bog down and out when trying to rev them up. Then they start right back up on choke.

mountainlake
04-27-2008, 07:34 AM
Yes my technical training is out of Georgetown, ....Buttery Hardware in Lano for Shindaiwa,..Blue mountain Equipment in Mckinney for Stihl which they can verify for me thank you. Speaking of technical,..how long have you been working on power equipment?
How long have you been in this period? My problems are what I face and may not be what u face in Austin. I have proof of this and have seen it enough to know. I`m regarded as the best in 2 cycle in the Corpus area by my fellow techs, and have respect for others on different parts of this field. Take my advice and dont disrespect me or question my knowledge if you have`nt done this for as long as me. You might learn something new too.

Gotta be Mow's brother. Getting back to the problem I would try adjusting the low a little richer, maybe the high too even if the limiter caps have to come off to do it. Lots of newer engines a adjusted a little to lean to mett EPA regs, and then we get gas with ethonal which makes them even more lean. Got any brght ideas rclopez? Besides bashing Echo. Steve

rclopez1118
04-27-2008, 09:50 AM
Morning folks,
You guys are the only ones bashing..me! EMJ asked a question and gave you my opinion, then people started questioning me about my opinion, thne they started crying about "dont be mean to Echo", and also questioned my knowledge too. I did`nt see anyone else get questioned for their response. If you don`t want an answer to your question, don`t post it. EMJ..I did`nt proclaim to be the best..my fellow techs in this area did. This is what I`ve done all my life and enjoy what I do, which is more than I can say for most techs. You have carb issues..replace the damn things if adjusting wont work. There is one secret to adjusting that might solve your problem, but your gonna have to be nice. By the way EMJ..i could`nt work for you anways...I don`t think you can afford me!

js.lawn
04-27-2008, 12:35 PM
let him figure it out for himself

Happy Frog
04-27-2008, 01:38 PM
Funny thing is that in my experience, my Echo were set quite rich from the factory (it makes sense when you remember that more gas in the mix also means more oil in the engine).
Since your equipment is relatively new, there should be no need to adjust the carb and I would make this my last option (this would void the remaining of the warranty).
Remove the spark plug and check its condition first. Black deposit on it is likely to indicate a too rich condition. If that the case, replacing the spark plug by an E3 brand spark plug (ref. 3.12) should resolve your issues.
I put E3 spark plugs on all my equipment and it runs much better. You can find them at Wall-Mart and all big boxes stores for less than $6.00 a piece.
Just so you know, I do not have 25 years of experience in this field and I do not hold multiple mechanic certifications but I have slept in an Holiday Inn Express once... :laugh:

Tider6972
04-27-2008, 02:06 PM
rclopez1118, I hope you will stay here on LawnSite and contribute; you're expertise can benefit many people.

I was the first, I guess, to ask you some questions; I hoped to find out why Echo would have these problems even though they use the same carbs, in a general sense, that other brands use.

Could it be an issue like vapor lock we used to see in cars with carburetors? Vapor lock was essentially the fuel getting over heated.

mountainlake
04-27-2008, 03:16 PM
Could be vapor lock, with the new EPA mufflers these engines run hotter, does it smell like boiling gas after a few minutes? Maybe try letting them idle a little before shutdown. As far as carb adjustments 3 out of 4 Echo saws I bought new I had to pull the caps and adjust richer. One out of those 3 ran good at first with 91 octane with no ethonal, when switched to gas with 10% ethonal it got lean, pulled the caps and adjusted, they all run great now. For me it's a lot quicker and cheaper to adjust myself than driving miles to a dealer. Steve

S DIAMOND
04-27-2008, 07:56 PM
both my 261ts my 260 edger and even my shindaiwa c-4 blower are doing this.

This leads me to believe that it is a tainted fuel source, since it is affecting more than one tool.

They start right up then bog down and out when trying to rev them up. Then they start right back up on choke.

Indicates a LEAN running condition.

Some things to do:

Walbro states that you should change your fuel filter at least every three months. Change it. If it's a ZAMA carb. it doesn't't matter, change it. a partially clogged fuel filter will change the air fuel mix (lean it out).

Take the fuel filter out ( felt type) and press it with your finger nail. If it is hard, then it is dirty...if it has been more than three months, you guessed it, change it.

When the unit is running, take some WD-40 in the aerosol can, and with the red stick, spray around the carburetor mounts. Does the engine speed change? Maverick air will lean out your fuel mix making it hard to restart. Check for loose mounting bolts (muffler and carburetor) as well as the spark plug.

Just a tangent here, fuel by design has a propensity to become a vapor. There are very small bubbles in the fuel at all times, and more are created when the machine runs and the ambient temperature rises. The agitation from travel, accompanied perhaps with the added heat of the machine and high day time temps, could indeed produce a vapor lock, but this is usually subject to machines that do not have proper shielding in place, catalytic mufflers and the fuel is blended. Crimped fuel lines and obstructed fuel filters can also be a problem.

If this is a barrel type carburetor, then it "may" be adjustable (White cap at top hides the screw). If it has adjustable jets ON the side they will be capped. Then again some don't have adjuments at all. Before you do that, change the fuel (if you have not already) and the fuel filter.

I think echo is a fine company. All two cycle engines share the same inherent problems regardless of the manufacturer. Indeed, try the simple things first. Like you said, its under warranty, if all else fails, take it in. :)

mountainlake
04-27-2008, 08:06 PM
This leads me to believe that it is a tainted fuel source, since it is affecting more than one tool.



Indicates a LEAN running condition.

Some things to do:

Walbro states that you should change your fuel filter at least every three months. Change it. If it's a ZAMA carb. it doesn't't matter, change it. a partially clogged fuel filter will change the air fuel mix (lean it out).

Take the fuel filter out ( felt type) and press it with your finger nail. If it is hard, then it is dirty...if it has been more than three months, you guessed it, change it.

When the unit is running, take some WD-40 in the aerosol can, and with the red stick, spray around the carburetor mounts. Does the engine speed change? Maverick air will lean out your fuel mix making it hard to restart. Check for loose mounting bolts (muffler and carburetor) as well as the spark plug.

Just a tangent here, fuel by design has a propensity to become a vapor. There are very small bubbles in the fuel at all times, and more are created when the machine runs and the ambient temperature rises. The agitation from travel, accompanied perhaps with the added heat of the machine and high day time temps, could indeed produce a vapor lock, but this is usually subject to machines that do not have proper shielding in place, catalytic mufflers and the fuel is blended. Crimped fuel lines and obstructed fuel filters can also be a problem.

If this is a barrel type carburetor, then it "may" be adjustable (White cap at top hides the screw). If it has adjustable jets ON the side they will be capped. Then again some don't have adjuments at all. Before you do that, change the fuel (if you have not already) and the fuel filter.

I think echo is a fine company. All two cycle engines share the same inherent problems regardless of the manufacturer. Indeed, try the simple things first. Like you said, its under warranty, if all else fails, take it in. :)

Nice to see someone with some answers rather than bashing. Steve

ed2hess
04-27-2008, 09:52 PM
Morning folks,
You guys are the only ones bashing..me! EMJ asked a question and gave you my opinion, then people started questioning me about my opinion, thne they started crying about "dont be mean to Echo", and also questioned my knowledge too. I did`nt see anyone else get questioned for their response. If you don`t want an answer to your question, don`t post it. EMJ..I did`nt proclaim to be the best..my fellow techs in this area did. This is what I`ve done all my life and enjoy what I do, which is more than I can say for most techs. You have carb issues..replace the damn things if adjusting wont work. There is one secret to adjusting that might solve your problem, but your gonna have to be nice. By the way EMJ..i could`nt work for you anways...I don`t think you can afford me!

I didn't mean to bash you....sorry my words were selected poorly and yes you probably serviced a lot more than I have. I guess I have been lucky with my Echo units because there has been a lot of others on lawnsite that certainly feel that Echo isn't very good......

jkilov
04-28-2008, 04:11 PM
Could be vapor lock

Could well be.

You can easily deal with this if your carburetors are equipped with air-purge rather than primer. Just use the bulb to flush the carb and fuel lines. Watch for bubbles in the return line.

Since I don`t own any of these machines, I have no idea what they are equipped with.

rjxj
04-28-2008, 10:27 PM
I may have missed it in the other posts but did you check the fuel lines. Replace the black hoses with the good quality clear yet flexible line. Dont get the stiff stuff or the filter wont flop around in the tank the way it should.

EMJ
04-30-2008, 07:37 PM
This leads me to believe that it is a tainted fuel source, since it is affecting more than one tool.



Indicates a LEAN running condition.

Some things to do:

Walbro states that you should change your fuel filter at least every three months. Change it. If it's a ZAMA carb. it doesn't't matter, change it. a partially clogged fuel filter will change the air fuel mix (lean it out).

Take the fuel filter out ( felt type) and press it with your finger nail. If it is hard, then it is dirty...if it has been more than three months, you guessed it, change it.

When the unit is running, take some WD-40 in the aerosol can, and with the red stick, spray around the carburetor mounts. Does the engine speed change? Maverick air will lean out your fuel mix making it hard to restart. Check for loose mounting bolts (muffler and carburetor) as well as the spark plug.

Just a tangent here, fuel by design has a propensity to become a vapor. There are very small bubbles in the fuel at all times, and more are created when the machine runs and the ambient temperature rises. The agitation from travel, accompanied perhaps with the added heat of the machine and high day time temps, could indeed produce a vapor lock, but this is usually subject to machines that do not have proper shielding in place, catalytic mufflers and the fuel is blended. Crimped fuel lines and obstructed fuel filters can also be a problem.

If this is a barrel type carburetor, then it "may" be adjustable (White cap at top hides the screw). If it has adjustable jets ON the side they will be capped. Then again some don't have adjuments at all. Before you do that, change the fuel (if you have not already) and the fuel filter.

I think echo is a fine company. All two cycle engines share the same inherent problems regardless of the manufacturer. Indeed, try the simple things first. Like you said, its under warranty, if all else fails, take it in. :) You are the winner. It appears I got some bad gas. I thank you for you knowledge and time, and also addressing the problem. Thanks EMJ

S DIAMOND
04-30-2008, 08:18 PM
Glad to hear EMJ. :)