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gregory
04-26-2008, 02:56 PM
i have one of my bigger oaks in the yard about 75% of the leafs have turned brown but have not fallen from the tree..this is only one tree out of 10 in the yard that is doing this......any idea's ???

i will try to post a pic later....it almost looks like you sprayed it with round up all of the leafs are brown but still on the tree

Ric
04-26-2008, 03:02 PM
Gregory


That is a bad sign, possible oak wilt. Pull on the brown leaves to see if they come off easy.

kbrashears
04-26-2008, 03:20 PM
I don't suspect it was a late frost. Did it get hit by lightening? Maybe an insect infestation. See if you can pull of a layer of bark anywhere around the trunk.

gregory
04-26-2008, 03:24 PM
not a frost problem ..its 90 down here......

ric yes the leaves fall off real easy you can just touch them and they fall off.....

RAlmaroad
04-26-2008, 03:50 PM
not a frost problem ..its 90 down here......

ric yes the leaves fall off real easy you can just touch them and they fall off.....

Karl:
You probaby know that Live Oaks drop their leaves in the spring when the new growth actually pushes the old leaves off. The old leaves form a membrane between the tree twig and the leave itself cutting off the water and nutrients so new growth can occur. Cut a twig about the size of a straw. If the cambia is green and slick, the tree may just be a little slow in pushing off the old leaves. We have similiar stuff in SC, but there are very small buds showing. If the tree is dry and not slick around the woody part between the cambia, then the tree is dying.
How big is the tree in height.
Roy

Ric
04-26-2008, 04:25 PM
Karl:
You probaby know that Live Oaks drop their leaves in the spring when the new growth actually pushes the old leaves off. The old leaves form a membrane between the tree twig and the leave itself cutting off the water and nutrients so new growth can occur. Cut a twig about the size of a straw. If the cambia is green and slick, the tree may just be a little slow in pushing off the old leaves. We have similiar stuff in SC, but there are very small buds showing. If the tree is dry and not slick around the woody part between the cambia, then the tree is dying.
How big is the tree in height.
Roy

Roy

I just got off the phone with Karl. I have advised him to Contact Steve Brown his County Extension Agent. I have a lot of respect for Steve and I am willing to travel the extra 50 miles for his seminars, because my own County Agent is a fool. From what Karl said, I have little hope for this tree.

RAlmaroad
04-26-2008, 04:33 PM
Ric/Karl: Please post the findings here. I hate to see any tree die from unknow causes. Last year during the drought in TN. We saved all shower/bath water and waterd the trees with it. Everything this year is beautiful, although I've seen a lot of drought damage especially in the lawn in TN.
Thanks and please follow up.
Roy

Atlantic Lawn
04-26-2008, 06:08 PM
Any new plantings of shrubs or flowers near this tree ?

gregory
04-26-2008, 06:30 PM
Any new plantings of shrubs or flowers near this tree ?


no there is nothing around this tree besides another bigger oak.....this oak is taller then my house and has a canopy about 30ft in dia its a good size tree it is more then 20years old...the tree was on this lot when i got the lot and built the house i have been here since 95

olive123
04-26-2008, 06:58 PM
they have been waiting for oak wilt to rear its ugly head.
We are getting more and more tree diseases
this texas decline is killing here in s fla on dactilifera. Doesnt sound good. Hope it works out.
KEEP US INFORMED ON WHAT HAPPENS.

gregory
04-27-2008, 02:34 PM
here are some pics

gregory
04-27-2008, 02:36 PM
here is another one

vegomatic40
04-28-2008, 09:29 AM
Does NOT look good. Looks like a candidate for "Stihl therapy". Trees prone to vascular diseases such as wilt were stressed severely last year due to the incredible drought throughout the Southeast. I talked with a tree-guru at the Univ. of Tenn. a few weeks ago and he said that we are likely to see losses of mature trees both this year and next from the '07 drought. It kinda goes hand in hand with my theory of tree/shrub loss of old specimens. I liken it to old folks that have a chronic disease that leads to another, then another etc. Many times I've heard of someone falling and breaking a hip, leads to pneumonia that leads to "dearly beloved". Stress factors build up over time.

gregory
04-28-2008, 11:28 AM
called the county this mornin the lady was telling me that since i put 6" of dirt over this tree i killed it...i don't belive that so i left a message for steve to call me back......

yeah i put 6" of dirt over this tree but not up to the trunk but hell that was 12 to 14 months ago and this tree turned like this in a matter of days it has looked good up until then..i would think if it was the dirt it would of looked like crap since then and not just turn like this in a matter of days......

gregory
04-28-2008, 12:43 PM
got ahold of steve ric he said he will come out thrusday may 1st i will wait and see what he says.......

Ric
04-28-2008, 03:12 PM
got ahold of steve ric he said he will come out thrusday may 1st i will wait and see what he says.......

Karl

Sorry But I have to agree some what with the Lady. I have seen grade changes effect Oak trees many times before.

I think Steve is the best man to Diagnose your problem and his service is free or at least Tax payer paid.

capelawncare.com
04-28-2008, 03:25 PM
I cant tell from the pictures, is it a laurel oak??? They loose their leaves this time of yr naturally. But I will admit that doesnt look like the case.

I would look at ungrading it, extra water and fert.

Keep us posted.

gregory
04-28-2008, 04:21 PM
it get plenty of water i have st augustine grass back there around it.......i will up date thrusday after steve comes and looks at it....


yes it is a laurel oak...

olive123
04-28-2008, 06:40 PM
oaks are EXTREMLY sensitive! You dont only get negative effects if you bury the trunk...6 inches is a lot, tough call...

olive123
04-28-2008, 06:46 PM
where did you get the dirt? Was it cheap top soil? Could have helped drowned the roots, could have induced some sort of root rot. Looks like a fungus.

PHS
04-28-2008, 09:42 PM
Greg, I don't know what's wrong with the tree but I can tell you for sure that adding 6" of soil wouldn't cause a sudden collapse like that. Unless there was something toxic the soil, the pattern of decline is totally different. I've worked on many oaks that had 5',6',7' feet of fill added on top of the entire root zone and parking lot put on top that didn't decline like that. Many of them died years later but not in that manner.

gregory
04-28-2008, 11:04 PM
yeah to many its funny that all of a sudden it looks like this..i would think it would had some kind of decline not all of a sudden....most of the leaves are browon on the frt side or west side of the tree not so much on the back side or east side of the tree..unless it hasn't gotten back around that side yet

naughty62
04-29-2008, 08:16 AM
I am not a arborist .If it could turn into a law suit ,I would have a arborist check it outand send in correct tissue samples .Figure out the basics like checking deadfall branchs for wilt .sudden oak symptems,bacterial leaf scorch. What kind of oak is it?

gregory
04-29-2008, 11:23 AM
I am not a arborist .If it could turn into a law suit ,I would have a arborist check it outand send in correct tissue samples .Figure out the basics like checking deadfall branchs for wilt .sudden oak symptems,bacterial leaf scorch. What kind of oak is it?

no law suit its my house...steve said when he comes over thrusday he will take some samples with him to make sure its nothing else besides putting dirt on top of it......

mngrassguy
04-30-2008, 05:49 AM
What did you use to spread the dirt under the tree?

gregory
05-01-2008, 03:48 PM
update........

steve came out today and looked at the tree he didn't seem to make any more comments about me putting dirt around it b/c of the way the trunk looked...but he did take some tree samples of dead limbs and live ones and ones where the leaves were turning he said he would send them off to pathology he also took a water sample but he doesn't think the water has anything to do with it b/c the other 8 okas are not affected.......told me to call him in a week......i will update then.......

gregory
05-15-2008, 05:20 PM
talked to the county today and there is no trace of a diease...so i guess its the fill i put around it......i will wait and and see.......

mngrassguy
05-15-2008, 11:59 PM
Mechanical damage? Did you use a Bobcat to spread the dirt under the tree?

gregory
05-16-2008, 10:12 AM
yeah used a bob cat to spread the dirt...but that was over a year ago and this damage happened all of a sudden.....theres another oak tree right next to this one and there is no damage on that tree......i will wait and see......

Ric
05-16-2008, 11:08 AM
Karl

Sorry But I have to agree some what with the Lady. I have seen grade changes effect Oak trees many times before.

I think Steve is the best man to Diagnose your problem and his service is free or at least Tax payer paid.

Gregory

Because I have been to your house and have seen the Oak tree before it declined, I never thought about grade change. Your lot is flat like a billiard table. The land around you is also fairly Flat.

It can take a year or more for trees that size to decline from root damage. But more importantly is the Grade Change which now inhibits Air from getting to the roots. Soil profile is like a bucket of balls, there is void spaces between each soil particle. A measurement of these void spaces is call Porosity and is how water, Fertilizer and air reach the roots. Roots also grow in these void spaces. Bulk Density is a measurement of compaction. The lower you go in the soil profile the less Oxygen there is. The Rhizosphere is the top 10 to 14 inches of your soil layer that all plants get their nutrients from. A normal Oak tree will in fact have many large roots growing right at the surface or natural grade so it can utilize the Oxygen present in the very top of the Rhizosphere.

If you notice Construction of landscape jobs where Large Oak Trees are saved and a grade change is required. The landscape designer will leave the Tree at grade and build a retaining wall around that tree so it stays at it's original grade while the rest of the grade is much higher. It will be a lot harder and more work to pull the dirt out and back down to original grade than it was to fill it in. The question now comes of how bad do you want to save those trees.

gregory
05-16-2008, 07:52 PM
well i would like to save this tree but if i pull the dirt back out my back yard floods real bad during the summer..thats the reason i put so much dirt back there to begin with.......


i will wait and see what happens to this tree if its gone then its gone i will cut it down and remove it and planet another one..it will be smaller but at this point thats all i can do...

PHS
05-16-2008, 09:37 PM
Greg,
A couple days ago I was going to post on this thread to look for some other predisposing stress factor for that tree. Healthy trees don't just up and die after any little change. If that were the case they wouldn't survive in the natural world. The fact that you're are having flooding problems around that tree makes a lot more sense to me. That's a strong predisposing stress factor. Low macro-pore space encourages root decay pathogens and all kinds of other problems. Plus you mentioned that the area is irrigated. Even though the other trees are irrigated similarly too, that particular area has more drainage problems than the rest and is probably staying wet much longer. I'm sure there was much more stress on that tree than you realized and the added soil along with the irrigation it tipped the balance too far. Many times in the past when I've dealt with "mystery decline" in trees, spending some time with a bucket auger or even just a soil probe sampling the area in a grid pattern can really provide a lot of clues as to what's going on below ground where 80% of tree problems start.

One time I was consulting on a declining live oak at a state congressman's house. This key tree was declining severly and nothing was adding up. It was nicely mulched, no irrigation, I scratched around the surface soil, everything looked fine. The head grounds keeper swore up and down nothing had changed, etc. We tried several different treaments and nothing seemed to help. I started the grid pattern boring 1" holes with an auger and eventually ran into highly compacted gravel about a foot below what looked like decent top soil. I found it encompassed fully half of the root zone and when I questioned the groundskeeper about about it, he "Oh yeah I forgot, this was a parking lot for several years while the estate was being built and the architect added soil and resloped the hillside to make it look natural" :hammerhead:

gregory
05-17-2008, 10:18 AM
phs tks for the input what you and ric say make sense...

gregory
06-10-2008, 10:58 AM
well the news is not good..that tree in the pic has all brown leafs..most have fallen off from the storms we have gotten....now the bigger tree next to it is looking the same way leafs are truning brown its a small spot right now but it looks the same.....

ICT Bill
06-10-2008, 12:01 PM
Flooding causes anaerobic and compaction issues in the soil. Not good for any type of plant but aquatic. You will have to control the anaerobic conditions long term before you will be make any progress.

Something has changed downstream to suddenly have flooding conditions, the trees have obviously been there a long time.

heritage
06-10-2008, 02:18 PM
well i would like to save this tree but if i pull the dirt back out my back yard floods real bad during the summer..thats the reason i put so much dirt back there to begin with.......


i will wait and see what happens to this tree if its gone then its gone i will cut it down and remove it and planet another one..it will be smaller but at this point thats all i can do...

Not trying to step on any toes here as many good comments by Experts.

When I see the comments of Flooding soils and AnAerobic soils, along with the Oak Wilt.........I have delt with another Phytophthora here in NJ.

On a site 3 season ago Many OLD Growth Red and Black Oaks were under STRESS from 2 Droughts that happened the 3 years prior to the losses.

As I was called in for help, Was seeing the Phytophthora symptoms on the trees that were not yet killed.

I have not used the Trunk Sprays of Pentra-Bark and Agrifos, but have used the Alliette Soil Drench to Butress roots @ 5Lb/100 Gal Rate with success.

So we have in the past 2 seasons only lost 1 more of the Oaks that get an Annual Drench of the Aliette when soil reaches 65F (now in my area) and the other 5 Look GREAT.

So in addition to the Cultural Methods Including Air Spading and Vertical Mulching with some Plant Health Care Products, Strongly Consider The Aliette Drench (if allowed in your state) or the Agrifos+Pentra Bark to protect the trees with few/no symptoms.

The Phytophthora is a Water Born Fungi......


Good Luck,

Pete

gregory
06-10-2008, 08:34 PM
don't have a problem with flooding....