PDA

View Full Version : Engine Smoking


mezammit
04-28-2008, 12:20 AM
I have a 2006 Lazer Z Hp with a 27hp Kohler engine on it. I bought the mower off a guy last year the mower only had 75 hours on it. I changed all the fluids at the end of the season last year and now the engine is smoking. When I first start the engine up it will bellow out white smoke then go away I figured this is just condensation. After the engine is warmed up it will smoke a little black smoke not muck though. If I pulse the throttle up and down it will also smoke a little black smoke. When I changed the oil I put Mobil-1 10W30 synthetic in it. I am wondering if it is the synthetic oil that is causing it to smoke. The mower now has 127 hours on it.

action13
04-28-2008, 10:40 AM
Black smoke signals rich mixture. White is usually moisture, but could also be a bit of oil too. I wouldn't run a synthetic oil, I would only run what is recommended by the manufacturer. I would also after warming the engine well resetting the main mixture screw (high speed setting), but would also check the idle mixture too. Check the spark plug, it tells a million stories. Black means it is running too rich. Keep in mind with small engines, if you increase or decrease the throttle too fast at times it will puff a little black as it needs a split second to use the gas thats in the chamber. They don't react as quick as a auto engine to fuel changes. ......Check the obvious too, is the choke partially closed? I doubt it or it should puff black smoke all the time. Sounds to me as if the throttle is being closed or open a bit too fast not giving time for the engine to adjust to the fuel changes. When it does, the puff stops.....Hope this helps a bit.......Tom The Mower Shop.

mezammit
04-28-2008, 09:33 PM
Thanks for the reply yeah I was pulsing the throttle fast so that does contribute to the smoke. I think I am going to drain the synthetic and just run a regular 10w30. The dealer told me that synthetic would be all right to run but hey the dealer will tell you anything to get your business. I know that the synthetic is a lot thinner than regular oil. Would changing the oil from synthetic to regular cause any damage. I have heard once you run synthetic that is all you should run but what about the other way around synthetic to regular oil.
Thanks for all the help.
Mike

action13
04-28-2008, 09:41 PM
No it's fine, you can change right back to the regular oil, make sure the manufacturer calls for 10w-30, and not straight 30. This time of the year most recommend straight 30w. Usually they use the 10w-30 in snow blowers because of the colder temps. The oil then begins at 10w to give easier starting, and quick start up protection. In the summer months it warm enough that the straight 30w gives good start up protection, while being easy to start too..........Tom

mezammit
04-30-2008, 09:22 PM
Thanks for all the help yeah they do call for a straight30 weight oil. Hopefully this will solve my problem. Once again thanks for your help.
Mike

topsites
05-01-2008, 08:53 AM
I would change the air filter just to be sure, if it's dirty it could be choking the engine which might be what's making black smoke.

Den69RS96
05-01-2008, 03:16 PM
The synthetic oil is not thinner than regular oil. The molecules in synthetics have been changed to be more uniform in size where as reg dino oil contains large and small molecules. If your engine calls for 10w-30 you can use reg oil or synthetic. By making the molecules more uniform, synthetics will allow you engine to run smoother and cooler with less friction. However, most of the difference is in the additives. Synthetic usually have better additive packages in them. If your engine puffs out black smoke, its rich, white smoke is condensation, blue smoke is usually oil.

mezammit
05-11-2008, 10:53 PM
Well I changed the oil to a straight 30W and it is still smoking. Come to find out it is burning oil. I thought it was just running rich but nope it is burning it pretty good. This mower only has 160 hours on it now. I am starting to get fustrated with it. The only two things that I think are causing it to burn oil are the valve seals or the rings. The mowers warranty just ended. Any one else have any ideas of what would cause the mower to burn this oil with only 160 hours on it.

action13
05-11-2008, 11:10 PM
Another mention on motor oil. And this is no more than my own theory, perhaps synthetic oil doesn't break down as quick as regular motor oil, and has a longer crankcase life with less frequent change intervals, I am reluctant to use it, for the simple fact, that if it stays in the crankcase longer what about microscopic metal Particles from the engine parts wearing, and the carbon deposits in the oil, these are not ALL trapped by a filter and produce more damaging particles in the oil. Regular motor oil gets changed sooner, these are eliminated quicker.

Bill Kapaun
05-11-2008, 11:22 PM
Thanks for all the help yeah they do call for a straight30 weight oil. Hopefully this will solve my problem. Once again thanks for your help.
Mike

Who is THEY?
Kohler specifies 10W-30 in their Command engines because of the hydraulic lifters.
Is this a different engine?

mezammit
05-11-2008, 11:56 PM
I normally run 10w30 in my mower. The dealer told me I would run a straight 30w or a 10w03. I ran my mower yesterday for 6 hours and it burned about 1/2 a quart of oil. Not to be rude to your comment because i appreciate any input I can get but i don't think running a straight 30w or a 10w30 will cause any engine to burn this much oil. This problem to me seems that it is mechanical not the weight of the oil. This is just getting me really pissed because my warranty just ended and now I get to tear my mower apart. No rebuilding a top end is not hard it is just the matter that this mower only has 160 hours on it.

AmsoilPower
05-12-2008, 12:06 AM
Another mention on motor oil. And this is no more than my own theory, perhaps synthetic oil doesn't break down as quick as regular motor oil, and has a longer crankcase life with less frequent change intervals, I am reluctant to use it, for the simple fact, that if it stays in the crankcase longer what about microscopic metal Particles from the engine parts wearing, and the carbon deposits in the oil, these are not ALL trapped by a filter and produce more damaging particles in the oil. Regular motor oil gets changed sooner, these are eliminated quicker.

Correct----synthetic oil does not break down as quick as conventional.
Wrong----longer crankcase life. You do not get the benefit of extended drain intervals with synthetic oils in mower engines due to the extremely dusty conditions the run in. There is too much of a risk of having a extremely dirty air filter causing the engine to suck air from somewhere it shouldn't causing comtamination. Or, the air filter being loose or installed incorrectly, etc. You do get all the other benefits however, easier starting, cooler running, smoother running and no sludge build-up. Bottom line is, change synthetic oil as often as conventional oil in mower engines.

action13
05-12-2008, 12:09 AM
Sometimes contacting the manufacturer (rather than the Dealer) can be rewarding, more than once they have been helpful when a out of warranty piece of equipment fails, when warranty expiration time has elapsed recently. Contact them, it sometimes takes some work, and it becomes frustrating, BUT I have had them cover certain things beyond the warranty. It is worth the call and being transfered between a few departments. Not to mention you have little to lose , but a few minutes of phone time....And yes to your question, no weight oil should burn at that rate. Sounds like valve seals....Tom

action13
05-12-2008, 12:23 AM
Correct----synthetic oil does not break down as quick as conventional.
Wrong----longer crankcase life. You do not get the benefit of extended drain intervals with synthetic oils in mower engines due to the extremely dusty conditions the run in. There is too much of a risk of having a extremely dirty air filter causing the engine to suck air from somewhere it shouldn't causing comtamination. Or, the air filter being loose or installed incorrectly, etc. You do get all the other benefits however, easier starting, cooler running, smoother running and no sludge build-up. Bottom line is, change synthetic oil as often as conventional oil in mower engines.

FIRST:Lets just say I threw a whole hand full of dust in the carburetor, and it gets sucked into the intake then, into the intake valve, and right into the cylinder, How on earth do you expect it to get into the oil crankcase? It would have to get by three rings. Dust has nothing on God's earth to do with motor oil contamination.
SECONDLY: Sludge build-up is no longer a issue with todays motor oils, only in the past before detergent was in all motor oils.
Third: Your engine should never be sucking air from anywhere other than the air filter. If it is your in need of additional engine work.
FORTH: Engine oil is contaminated by, carbon, and worn metal particles from the internal parts wearing (the reason automobiles have magnetic drain plugs). Thats why you want to change oil at regular intervals, as well as the oil breakdown factor.
Please excuse me for posting something that has little or nothing to do with your situation, but I don't want someone misleading, or misinforming people following this post........Tom....."The Mower Shop"

AmsoilPower
05-12-2008, 12:48 AM
FIRST:Lets just say I threw a whole hand full of dust in the carburetor, and it gets sucked into the intake then, into the intake valve, and right into the cylinder, How on earth do you expect it to get into the oil crankcase? It would have to get by three rings. Dust has nothing on God's earth to do with motor oil contamination.
SECONDLY: Sludge build-up is no longer a issue with todays motor oils, only in the past before detergent was in all motor oils.
Third: Your engine should never be sucking air from anywhere other than the air filter. If it is your in need of additional engine work.
FORTH: Engine oil is contaminated by, carbon, and worn metal particles from the internal parts wearing (the reason automobiles have magnetic drain plugs). Thats why you want to change oil at regular intervals, as well as the oil breakdown factor.
Please excuse me for posting something that has little or nothing to do with your situation, but I don't want someone misleading, or misinforming people following this post........Tom....."The Mower Shop"

So your saying dirt can't enter the engine thru the crankcase breather? What do you think causes the the worn metal particles to contaminate the oil----DIRT! What causes the sludge build-up in the crankcase-----Usually from running hot due to lack of lube after engine burning oil because piston & cylinder are ate out from DIRT!!!!

2 main causes of engine failure----1.dirt and 2.lack of lube. 2nd one sometimes the result of the 1st one.

GravelyNut
05-12-2008, 01:12 AM
So your saying dirt can't enter the engine thru the crankcase breather? What do you think causes the the worn metal particles to contaminate the oil----DIRT! What causes the sludge build-up in the crankcase-----Usually from running hot due to lack of lube after engine burning oil because piston & cylinder are ate out from DIRT!!!!

2 main causes of engine failure----1.dirt and 2.lack of lube. 2nd one sometimes the result of the 1st one.

Yep! No cylinder wall is completely smooth. Dirt fills in the grooves in the cylinder walls where the oil would normally stay. On the next pass down, it gets scraped off and moves to the next ring. Repeat untill it gets to the oil scraper rings. At that point it will enter the crankcase with the oil. As the dirt goes past the rings, it also cuts into the walls and rings. Repeat long enough and you need new rings, pistons, and the cylinder walls honed or bored.

action13
05-12-2008, 01:15 AM
So your saying dirt can't enter the engine thru the crankcase breather? What do you think causes the the worn metal particles to contaminate the oil----DIRT! What causes the sludge build-up in the crankcase-----Usually from running hot due to lack of lube after engine burning oil because piston & cylinder are ate out from DIRT!!!!

2 main causes of engine failure----1.dirt and 2.lack of lube. 2nd one sometimes the result of the 1st one.

Stick to selling oil. Your ideas are way off. I have pulled more crankcases than you have sold quarts of oil, only to see in the last 15 years little or no problem sludge in most crankcases that have engines which were properly maintained. Dust, and dirt is not a top answer to engine failure. What exact type engine failure are you speaking of? Thats a rather broad statement. Most internal engine failure is contributed to heat not dirt,! Also attributing to premature engine failure is lack of good routine maintenance. A well maintained engine with clean oil adds in dispersing heat, and lowering friction. Oil breakdown is a leading contributer too. The protection ratings of most regular motor oils drop significantly after 1000-1500 miles in a automobile engine. A dirty air filter will not hurt the oil, what will is the rich mixture caused by it, leading to a higher level of carbon deposits, circulating in the crankcase and being redistributed through out the engine.

Bill Kapaun
05-12-2008, 02:40 AM
[QUOTE=mezammit;2318168]....Come to find out it is burning oil. I thought it was just running rich but nope it is burning it pretty good...../QUOTE]

IF it's a Kohler Command twin, head gaskets are ALWAYS suspect!

Ridin' Around
05-12-2008, 11:56 AM
Stick to selling oil. Your ideas are way off. I have pulled more crankcases than you have sold quarts of oil, only to see in the last 15 years little or no problem sludge in most crankcases that have engines which were properly maintained. Dust, and dirt is not a top answer to engine failure. What exact type engine failure are you speaking of? Thats a rather broad statement. Most internal engine failure is contributed to heat not dirt,! Also attributing to premature engine failure is lack of good routine maintenance. A well maintained engine with clean oil adds in dispersing heat, and lowering friction. Oil breakdown is a leading contributer too. The protection ratings of most regular motor oils drop significantly after 1000-1500 miles in a automobile engine. A dirty air filter will not hurt the oil, what will is the rich mixture caused by it, leading to a higher level of carbon deposits, circulating in the crankcase and being redistributed through out the engine.

So by your reasoning I would be better off taking the air filter off of everything I own and I will then never have a rich running engine, no carbon deposits therfore my engine will last longer than someone running an air filter. Good reasoning process! Where is your shop at? I will never bring my stuff there!:hammerhead:

SLR
05-12-2008, 01:52 PM
Action13Wrote:"It would have to get by three rings. Dust has nothing on God's earth to do with motor oil contamination"
------------
Wowzerz!
So then mr.mechanic, how then does motor oil get by those 3 perfectly,perfectly round, sealed rings to lubricate the cylinder walls..
do i hear a "check-mate" off in the distance?

Ridin' Around
05-13-2008, 03:19 PM
Here is some interesting info that I pulled from a Fedeal Mogul (engine bearing manufacturer) newletter. According to Federal Mogul's Engine Bearing Service Manual 1803EB, where the results of studying over 7,000 case histories on engine bearing failure are detailed. What were their findings? Dirt
causes 43.3% of all bearing distress in an engine. Other causes include
insufficient lubrication, bearing misassembly or misalignment, overloading,
corrosion, etc., but dirt is absolutely the major culprit.

Dirt in an engine may come from many sources. Airborne dirt enters
through the air filter. Machinings left during engine manufacture are
classified as dirt. Engine wear produces its own kind of dirt in the
form of metal particles. Any and all of this dirt can cause bearing
distress if it is not filtered out of circulation.

That is why proper filtration BOTH air & oil, as well as good regular maint. are very important. I use Amsoil synthetics in my equipment because I have seen the benefits of running it in my pulling engines. I know it has better cold weather flow properties and resists breaking down longer than conventional oils. We pull our pulling motors apart on a regular basis and since we started using Amsoil the hone marks stay around longer and the engines can sit exposed to hot cold cycles with condensation and won't rust in the cylinder during the off season. Not hard to sell me when I can see results for myself!

action13
05-13-2008, 11:05 PM
Action13Wrote:"It would have to get by three rings. Dust has nothing on God's earth to do with motor oil contamination"
------------
Wowzerz!
So then mr.mechanic, how then does motor oil get by those 3 perfectly,perfectly round, sealed rings to lubricate the cylinder walls..
do i hear a "check-mate" off in the distance?

Wow, your a real winner...oil doesn't get by all three rings to lubricate the cylinder walls, MORON...understand the function of the three rings.......

Ridin' Around
05-14-2008, 03:59 PM
Wow, your a real winner...oil doesn't get by all three rings to lubricate the cylinder walls, MORON...understand the function of the three rings.......

Understand the function of the oil on the cylinder walls. It actually stays on the walls in a very thin layer so that the rings do not actually scrape on the cylinder walls. No need for name calling:nono: we're all friends on here:laugh: I know they call it a scraper ring but that term is used loosely!

mountainlake
05-15-2008, 07:38 AM
I have a 2006 Lazer Z Hp with a 27hp Kohler engine on it. I bought the mower off a guy last year the mower only had 75 hours on it. I changed all the fluids at the end of the season last year and now the engine is smoking. When I first start the engine up it will bellow out white smoke then go away I figured this is just condensation. After the engine is warmed up it will smoke a little black smoke not muck though. If I pulse the throttle up and down it will also smoke a little black smoke. When I changed the oil I put Mobil-1 10W30 synthetic in it. I am wondering if it is the synthetic oil that is causing it to smoke. The mower now has 127 hours on it.

Did it smoke before you changed oil? These engines don't like to be overfilled at all, they'll suck oil through the breather right into the carb causing blue white smoke. As mentioned some have head gasket troubles.. Steve

MarcSmith
05-15-2008, 07:54 AM
is it entirely possible that the engine has more than 160 hours.....hour meters are cheap. and they regularly fail. so you could in fact have an engine with high hours.

what about a stuck choke. causing a rich mixture by keeping air out of the carb....

I think you have a carb that is out of adjustment.

Keep the 10w30 don't be afraid of synthetics. If there was a problem with synthetics I doubt all the major automakers and race teams would use em. Exmark uses mobil 1 in their hydro systems....

Den69RS96
05-15-2008, 10:42 AM
In a perfect world no dirt should pass through the air filter, however, air filters do let in some particles. Were talking microns in size here. Over time, the dirt in the gas/air mixture will begin to scratch the cylinder walls as the moving piston/rings embeds it into the cylinder walls. Once the walls are scratched, combustion byproducts and more dirt can enter the oil and the oil left in the scratch marks will burn in the combustion chamber. Keep in mind that most production engines are not blueprinted and the tolerences can vary between a range that the manufacturer deems acceptable. Also as an engine wears, those tolerences increase as well. So if you don't have tight tolerences to begin with some byproducts do get into your oil. As a engine runs, the crank is throwing oil all over the place lubricating the cylinder walls. The oil rings job is to prevent oil from entering the combuster chamber. So if you cylinders are scratched, oil gets into the combustion chamber and then combustion byproducts get into the oil. Once they are there, they breakdown the oil and it doesn't protect and lubricate as well. Then your bearings will start to wear and then its time for a rebuild.

SLR
05-15-2008, 12:37 PM
MORON...understand the function of the three rings.......
------------------------------------------------------
So mr.check-mated mechanic, are you saying 'no' oil is getting past the first ring?
Are you saying 'no oil is getting past the 2nd ring? ok, now onto the 3rd?The fact ring #3 is made reveal a simple truth *oil is getting through mr.rings!*

If mr.mechanic is saying no oil is getting past the second ring, would not the 3rd ring becoming a failed part of the engine in quick order, basically scraping metal thousand of revolutions per second?

Did you know mr.back-yard..mechanic?..that NO cylinder-(you know where mr.piston goes up&down real fast) is n-e-v-e-r completly round?? go on admit your defeat and hang your overly greased ego in due shame and confess you learned something this day!

sawman65
05-15-2008, 01:58 PM
Wow, your a real winner...oil doesn't get by all three rings to lubricate the cylinder walls, MORON...understand the function of the three rings.......

well what about the drainback where the push rods are. could dirt not get in that way??? listen action we here are basicly a good group of wrench turners most of us are master techs. looking to help out the lco. people like you make it hard to give real info on mechanic and repair simply because you dont know your azz from a crankshaft. sit back open your eyes and stop typing. you WILL learn something. and as bob says "CLASS DISMISSED"
to the guy that said 30wt is ok for kohler comands. if you use it you will have lifter and or valve problems plain and simple

Sharpcut 1
05-15-2008, 02:57 PM
DON"T use straight 30 with a Kohler Command. Too thick, may not let the lifters bleed down. You may eventually end up with a bent pushrod or 2.

SLR
05-15-2008, 02:59 PM
mr.mechanic13Wrote:"FIRST:Lets just say I threw a whole hand full of dust in the carburetor, and it gets sucked into the intake then, into the intake valve, and right into the cylinder, How on earth do you expect it to get into the oil crankcase? It would have to get by three rings.
----------------------------------------------------------
Just a update concerning combustion engines. If you go look at any 4-stroker you will find some holes in the area of the piston lands in which the 'oil control rings' allow oil to directly lubricate the cly. walls..seems a sneaky spot your prescribed handful of dirt will immigrate like a mexican to that crankcase,hmm how's that 'action' sweety?

SLR
05-15-2008, 03:11 PM
Action13Wrote:"A dirty air filter will not hurt the oil,
----------------------------------
..umm and further class..Refusal to wear a dust mask while working with black mold or asbestos 'won't' hurt or affect your blood. It will kill the body, but thankgoodness
the blood will be just fine!

SLR
05-15-2008, 03:22 PM
Saweman65Wrote:"well what about the drainback where the push rods are. could dirt not get in that way???
-------
Oops i see you already spoke of the oil control ring holes.

44DCNF
05-15-2008, 04:39 PM
Someone needs to take Action and write the American Petroleum Institue and ask for a copy of their Petroleum Motor Oil Guide and start educating himself on the topic. The following is not the only item he was wrong about. And he points the finger at others about misinformation.....:nono:

From the publication cited above:

No air cleaner is 100% efficient and all lose efficiency after a period of use. As air cleaners become loaded with dust and dirt, it becomes more difficult for air to pass through them easily. This restriction of the air flow causes richening of the air fuel mixture and loss of fuel economy. Even the most efficient air cleaners do not completely clean the air to the engine and some dust and dirt enters where it is picked up on the oil wetted cylinder walls. Here it causes wear, and the dust and dirt plus metallic debris of wear is carried throughout the engine where it causes further difficulty. Oil filters are designed to remove this type of contaminant before severe damage is done to the engine but these are not 100% efficient either.
---------
Mower shop? What do you repair, bubble mowers?

FIXDISS
05-15-2008, 09:40 PM
Meanwhile back to the original topic. I believe there is a history of head gasket problems with the Kohler 22 thru 27 hp engines. If you were to try and pm Restrorob with model and serial #'s you may just find out there is a new head gasket kit that comes with new head bolts that was found to be the culprit. This may not be your problem but it is ...."just my half-fast opinion " . :hammerhead: