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View Full Version : add-on, and on. And on.


Mike M
04-28-2008, 08:21 PM
Okay. I will have to be much more aggressive during my demo's. I now have a customer realizing I was right about the total needed fixtures. I now have made my third order, will pay extra for shipping, gate passes, windshield time, etc., and pricing at one fixture a time, which goes against the "I design and install systems" thing and makes me have to itemize my parts in ways I don't want to.

How do you guys deal with this?

Chris J
04-28-2008, 09:02 PM
Materials plus labor and include a hefty trip charge each time. Another way to do it is simply divide the original sales price by the number of fixtures to determine a per fixture cost. Then tell the customer that is the only fair way to price it with out charging the trip fees.
That scenario is always a pain in the rump, but you simply have to explain that your time is money and you have to charge that much for one lousy fixture. Think about how much time that fixture cost you: youv'e got to order it and go get it or have it delivered; you have the travel time there and then back, and you have the time on site. This is a few hours worth of your time, so that one fixture should cost at least $300, wouldn't you think? Don't be afraid to tell the customer this if they question it either. If they do, you can always remind them that you wanted to put the fixture in with the rest of them at the same time so they could avoid this extra cost.

The Lighting Geek
04-28-2008, 10:41 PM
I don't run into this problem much because I am managing expectations from moment one. My marketing sets the attitude and I don't leave opportunities for them to question details. Details don't matter, the end effect is what matters and that is what I am focusing the client on. I believe there is something to say for being in front of the right customer. My customers don't call me to bid a job, they call me to create magic in their landscape. I get most of the jobs I demo, I don't care if other bidders are involved and I don't know if there are or not. It doesn't matter. I come to the client's home and I create magic. I sweep them off their feet with my enthusiasm and passion for what I do. They tell me sometimes that I am infectious. At this moment, the details don't matter, they just have to have it. I believe in my heart that I am showing them a glimpse of something they didn't know existed. It IS experiential.

It comes with time, practice and experience. There no better high in the world than to expose someone to what we as artisans do.

Mike M
04-28-2008, 11:30 PM
I think both Chris and Tom nailed this.

1. Do my best to sell the whole portrait as is.

2. If they want another fixture, let them know the rate/formula up front, or what the rate is for a service call, and let them know it changes voltage configurations, more trenching, wire, soldering, etc.

Pro-Scapes
04-29-2008, 07:25 AM
There will always be a time where you need to make the trip to add just one. I had to go add 2 yesterday but I was already in the area and had the fixtures in stock and it took all of 1.5 hours.

I have almost always in the past broken the job down in phases and 99% of the time seperate the front and back yard lighting systems. I would rather do a few zones complete than make swiss cheese. Add the additional zones later and not just put the job together piece by piece.

If a client doubts your design or the number of fixtures needed to get the job done then either do the demo, offer the above ground or just move on.

JoeyD
04-29-2008, 10:48 AM
I dont think I have ever been apart of a project that the homeowner or property manager didnt add 2 or 3 lights I recommended at the beggining. This is usually what the Demo saves you from because they see the importance of every light. You are able to turn over and eliminate lights they have in question only to watch them tell you to turn the light back over!

Bid it in, let them know there will be a slightly higher charge to add to the system once you have made your connections and set your transfomer voltage. In most cases if you have the lights in stock like Billy eluded too and you are using a Hub wiring layout then as long as you have room on your TF which I hope we all upsize in case of addition, and you have room left on your wire, which I hope non of us ever fully load then you shouldnt have too much of an issue adding the light or lights in. Heck in some cases you can look like a hero by saying no problem mr or mrs. homeowner I can add the light right now!! Only charge them the standard price per fixture and see them happily cut you that check!!!

Mike M
04-29-2008, 05:49 PM
Good points Joey, I do what Billy told me to do, when I solder my hubs, I leave a pig tail, and use 10 gauge when in doubt for my run. I also make sure the trans can handle some more wattage.

I'll just swing by and connect a couple at retail, but I will be more prepared with explicit rates for add-ons at each particular area in the future, and offer incentives for completing the whole zone appropriately in the first place. I do this with zones as well, if I think they can budget two zones, I offer them both at a discount, explaining to them that I save on labor.

I am also going to be wise and keep a few extra common fixtures stocked at all times.

I did this with irrigation parts, too. I just picked up several parts (slip fixes, etc.) so I don't have to waste windshield time driving to the irritation supplier.

Mike M
04-29-2008, 06:15 PM
Okay. Newcomers, please refer to Mike's Splice Thread first.

Now that Eddie has me wanting to advance my methods to all T's and no amateurish hubs (lol), I want to ask people what they like best for T's specifically.

I will still use hubs & solder (which I love), and I use ace connectors for adding leads (very nice, I use an electric heat gun).

For quick add-ons and splits to two fixtures, my choices are silicone-filled twist-ons, ace connectors, or buchanon crimp and grease tube.

I've been using the Ace for splits/T's.

I'd like to use the Buchanon for the T's, especially for service repairs, add-ons, and any quick connections.

I will then officially be using (1) solder for hubs, (2) crimps for T's and service work, and (3) ace connectors for inline extensions and above-ground T's.

Today was a day off and I had time to reflect on my details, inventory, needs lists, etc., and I'm bored.

The Buchanon crimp seems like the perfect service method.

Chris J
04-29-2008, 06:53 PM
I used to be strictly cut and nut, and I have explained why in the "splices" thread. I do use the buchannan crimp now, as I believe this is the best connection method available. Ace connectors are superior also, but time consuming and more costly.
So, at this point of the game, I use the crimps for the T's. King connectors for the fixture splices and if I have to do an inline add-on or repair (or tree mount) I will use the Ace. I'm slowly moving towards all buchannan crimps for fixtures and T's, but I will still use the Ace for tree mounts and in-lines. I'm also still trying to convince myself to try the hub method on a few installs, but I'm a stubborn guy. Once I find something that works well, it's hard for me to change. I live by the old saying "if it aint broke, don't try to fix it."

irrig8r
04-29-2008, 08:27 PM
I use Ace connectors on all new installations and wherever I am adding a new run. They make less sense to me where I'm just adding or replacing fixtures, because I don't know what other splices are in the ground already. In those cases i favor Dry Conn with a zip tie about 4 inches away from the splice in case the wire gets pulled on.

Chris J
04-29-2008, 09:07 PM
I need to clarify. When I have to add a fixture (and split off the home run somewhere other than the T, the wire is to tight to be able to use the Dry Conns or Kings without adding a piece of wire and double the connections. It is in this instance where the Ace is easiest to connect a branch circuit to accomodate the additional light(s).

Pro-Scapes
04-29-2008, 09:33 PM
I forgot to mention the connection I had to open to add the 2 lights the other day was an ace. That shrink boot is near imposible to remove and it was a VERY solid connection. I am confident all my tree lights will be safe with em.

Dollar for dollar pound for pound I have found nothing more secure than soldering where possible. I do use crimps in hard to reach areas.

Now Mike. Keep in mind I do not leave a standard pig tail anymore. I leave a loop of 16ga so there is no open connection. I can simply cut the 16ga and use an ace or solder to add in a fixture to the hub. I now only do this where I am pretty confident we will be adding fixtures.

I cant rememeber the last time I used a drycon. I think it was in a j box with limited room. I know guys dont have problems with them but i just dont like the idea of burying them unprotected.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-29-2008, 10:43 PM
I use Ace connectors on all new installations and wherever I am adding a new run. They make less sense to me where I'm just adding or replacing fixtures, because I don't know what other splices are in the ground already. In those cases i favor Dry Conn with a zip tie about 4 inches away from the splice in case the wire gets pulled on.

Pretty much the same as me. K.I.S.S.

I also like to use Belden Solder Seal connectors (UAP / NAPA) for inline, low profile, highly visible connections such as on structures or in tight spots. I know there is the mini-ACE / 1/4 ACE, but the Belden Solder Seal is about the same finished size and yet handles larger ga. of cable then the mini Ace.

Enjoy.

Eden Lights
04-29-2008, 11:00 PM
Pretty much the same as me. K.I.S.S.

I also like to use Belden Solder Seal connectors (UAP / NAPA) for inline, low profile, highly visible connections such as on structures or in tight spots. I know there is the mini-ACE / 1/4 ACE, but the Belden Solder Seal is about the same finished size and yet handles larger ga. of cable then the mini Ace.

Enjoy.

These don't come in black do they?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-29-2008, 11:05 PM
Nope, the useful ones are a translucent yellow colour. Easily hidden with a short piece of shrink tubing applied over the connector.

Another trick is to simply hide them in a small dia. hole bored into the structure, or behind molding, flashing etc. I always have a box of the solder seals in the trailer and they have saved my bacon many a time.

Eden Lights
04-29-2008, 11:15 PM
I use a shrink over the top, I was just wondering if you had different solution. Thanks

Chris J
04-29-2008, 11:30 PM
Nope, the useful ones are a translucent yellow colour. Easily hidden with a short piece of shrink tubing applied over the connector.

Another trick is to simply hide them in a small dia. hole bored into the structure, or behind molding, flashing etc. I always have a box of the solder seals in the trailer and they have saved my bacon many a time.

Misunderstood the post.

Mike M
04-30-2008, 10:24 AM
Billy, the idea of looping the 16 gauge is brilliant. Not only is no end left with just a silicone cap on it, etc., but I'll have the potential for two extra fixtures if it's not too much on the run.

Thanks, Bro!

Chris, funny you mention considering hubs, on the other hand, I'm going to start planning for more T's where they make sense (2 fixtures/close proximity, etc.).

Pro-Scapes
04-30-2008, 10:38 AM
Billy, the idea of looping the 16 gauge is brilliant. Not only is no end left with just a silicone cap on it, etc., but I'll have the potential for two extra fixtures if it's not too much on the run.

Thanks, Bro!

Chris, funny you mention considering hubs, on the other hand, I'm going to start planning for more T's where they make sense (2 fixtures/close proximity, etc.).

We used to use the hub exclusivly. I find I can install hubs so long as the fixtures are pre leaded much faster than T or anything else. Its all about planning your wire layout so you only have to dig one trench per run. When Uplighitng homes I preffer that trench to be right against the house then the hubs right inline with the trenches.... all the fixtures are placed and the lines are run from the fixture to the open trench. Very quick. I suppose you could do the T in the same way but its 4-5 times the splicing.

The Lighting Geek
04-30-2008, 12:08 PM
I'm in agreement with billy. Hubs save you time and hassles. I have a couple of guys who only know the hub method. I have found that the more options you give an employee, the more likely you are going to have issues. I like keeping it simple. I do however think a loop is a great idea, I also use them in the direct burial tf's from Unique.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-30-2008, 09:50 PM
I get the whole HUB concept but it is pretty much useless here as I am on really large properties (2-3 Acres is a small property here) and generally have large spacings between fixtures. It's not uncommon for us to have 35' to 50' between fixture locations. For me the "T" is king, and yes, we use a LOT of wire.

Working on these properties exercises your internal voltage drop calculator in a big way... to the point that it becomes second nature as to how far and how much you can load a cable.

As for leaving a loop... well sheeesh, that is just second nature! I was taught to leave a loop at every junction and at every fixture. It sure helps down the road for additions and moving fixtures around.

Have a great day.

Pro-Scapes
05-01-2008, 01:09 AM
As for leaving a loop... well sheeesh, that is just second nature! I was taught to leave a loop at every junction and at every fixture. It sure helps down the road for additions and moving fixtures around.

Have a great day.

your thinking of a service loop. Duh thats a given. What mike was reffering to and what I sometimes do is leave a Pigtail basically but 2 of them per splice and they are uncut. I sometimes basically leave a flying lead looped back into itself if the situation dictates it. I like the idea of it on the DB transformers too Tommy. Could save you from having to reopen that thing. I guess I will have to take a photo of it next time I make one which wont be until next week.

Imagine a 16ga lead hanging off your splice but its looped back to itself. Im not talking about slack or a service loop. I am talking about flying leads in a sence.

Mike M
05-01-2008, 08:51 AM
Billy, everyone, etc., while on this topic, what configurations are you using to fit all of your runs into a terminal? When I'm using 10 gauge, I have a hard time fitting, even though I am balancing my loads. Should I be making flying leads and splitting off of them?

I'd hate to have to have connections like that inside the trans., but the terminals are so flippin small.

Same problem with the conduit. Can't fit wires easily into the flex pipe, so I have to run multiple flex pipes. I'd like to use the larger conduit and just glue elbows, etc., it would be easier, but what's this about 3 runs per conduit?? Is it no more than 3 runs, or is it no more than a particular limit in total amps?

These are obvious/dumb q's, but I don't see this stuff in the training manuals, books, trans instructions, etc., and I may be over-looking basic tricks.

Thanks!!

Pro-Scapes
05-01-2008, 09:54 AM
Billy, everyone, etc., while on this topic, what configurations are you using to fit all of your runs into a terminal? When I'm using 10 gauge, I have a hard time fitting, even though I am balancing my loads. Should I be making flying leads and splitting off of them?

I'd hate to have to have connections like that inside the trans., but the terminals are so flippin small.

Same problem with the conduit. Can't fit wires easily into the flex pipe, so I have to run multiple flex pipes. I'd like to use the larger conduit and just glue elbows, etc., it would be easier, but what's this about 3 runs per conduit?? Is it no more than 3 runs, or is it no more than a particular limit in total amps?

These are obvious/dumb q's, but I don't see this stuff in the training manuals, books, trans instructions, etc., and I may be over-looking basic tricks.

Thanks!!


unless there is only 3 runs I use the large knock out. 1" or 1"1/4 solid conduit no flex. Attach a nipple and lock ring and dig a moderate sized area out under the trans.

As for cramming a ton of wires on a given tap that is a thing of the past for me. With the new transformers I am using I no longer need to jam a bunch of wires on a given tap because I have the half v taps and can better manipulate my voltage. I never liked the idea of flying leads or making splices in the trans. Cast has a terminal lug thing for this. I have been using multiple smaller transformers instead of the 1200 and 1500w ones I used to use and it seems to be helping the wire stuffing alot.

Mike M
05-01-2008, 07:06 PM
Fenced utility areas are popular here and I use flex for that.

I think it would be easier to just glue elbows and use the bigger pvc.

The Lighting Geek
05-01-2008, 08:00 PM
We are wiring our Intelli-System and only need 2 home runs per 840w tf and 3 on 1120w. wow! That is only 1 3/4 conduit per tranny! How clean is that! Instead of 6-8 hubs per tranny to volt we now have 2. My guys think they have died and gone to heaven...lol

The Lighting Geek
05-01-2008, 08:09 PM
Billy, everyone, etc., while on this topic, what configurations are you using to fit all of your runs into a terminal? When I'm using 10 gauge, I have a hard time fitting, even though I am balancing my loads. Should I be making flying leads and splitting off of them?

I'd hate to have to have connections like that inside the trans., but the terminals are so flippin small.

Same problem with the conduit. Can't fit wires easily into the flex pipe, so I have to run multiple flex pipes. I'd like to use the larger conduit and just glue elbows, etc., it would be easier, but what's this about 3 runs per conduit?? Is it no more than 3 runs, or is it no more than a particular limit in total amps?

I believe the reference to 3-12/2 per conduit is that you can get 4 in a short piece of 3/4" conduit with a lot of mucsle, but 3 is just right. As far as 10 guage wire goes, I have not used it for a couple of years, no need too unless you are running mammoth lengths for your home runs. With the Unique trannys there is no need to balance the loads because they are single core tf's.

Eden Lights
05-01-2008, 09:36 PM
I believe the reference to 3-12/2 per conduit is that you can get 4 in a short piece of 3/4" conduit with a lot of mucsle, but 3 is just right. As far as 10 guage wire goes, I have not used it for a couple of years, no need too unless you are running mammoth lengths for your home runs. With the Unique trannys there is no need to balance the loads because they are single core tf's.

Do any of you guys not ever get rejected on inspection due to code violations due to fill capacities?

Chris J
05-01-2008, 10:34 PM
We are wiring our Intelli-System and only need 2 home runs per 840w tf and 3 on 1120w. wow! That is only 1 3/4 conduit per tranny! How clean is that! Instead of 6-8 hubs per tranny to volt we now have 2. My guys think they have died and gone to heaven...lol

So what's the deal with this, can you now put 10 or so fixtures per hub with the 24v system? Are the leads on 24v fixtures still 25' or are they doubled to 50'? Do you even have to hub them, or could you daisy chain?

The Lighting Geek
05-01-2008, 11:41 PM
Here is a diagram from Unique that will help. 80% of total watts for 12/2 @ 12 volts is 192 watts. We all know that, but the cool part is this: 80% of total watts for 12/2 @ 24 volts is 480!

Eden Lights
05-02-2008, 12:11 AM
Here is a diagram from Unique that will help. 80% of total watts for 12/2 @ 12 volts is 192 watts. We all know that, but the cool part is this: 80% of total watts for 12/2 @ 24 volts is 480!

Ok now I am really lost? How are you controlling the voltage to the three shub's of various lengths and loads all supplied by one tap?????

The Lighting Geek
05-02-2008, 12:48 AM
we are using the same fixtures with 25' leads

Eden Lights
05-02-2008, 12:58 AM
The example provided shows various lengths to the subhub on the same tap? I just ran the numbers real quick, is this going to be acceptable? I liked the idea until I saw that three subhubs on one wire run? What am I missing?

Chris J
05-02-2008, 12:58 AM
That makes no sense. Each branch circuit has a different load requirement and with different lengths. That would be the same thing as having a "T" with 150w on one side and 10w on the other.

Eden Lights
05-02-2008, 01:02 AM
That makes no sense. Each branch circuit has a different load requirement and with different lengths. That would be the same thing as having a "T" with 150w on one side and 10w on the other.

Amen Bro, It just doesn't preach. How did we go from trying to get voltages within a .5 tolerance a few months a go to now talking about a system with 2 VOLTS tolerance?:hammerhead:

Chris J
05-02-2008, 01:14 AM
We may need to put on a 3-day seminar before we release these products into the general public. This way, the manu will have an opportunity to explain their principles, and we can have the opportunity, as pros, to disagree.

Pro-Scapes
05-02-2008, 09:37 AM
So what's the deal with this, can you now put 10 or so fixtures per hub with the 24v system? Are the leads on 24v fixtures still 25' or are they doubled to 50'? Do you even have to hub them, or could you daisy chain?

While I can see certain situations where loading up like that could help (commercial????) It is RARE I need that kind of power within 25' of my hubs. Actually... its never happened yet.

While I see the benifit of less wire and less expense I do not see the practicality of it unless your going to do the "trident" style wiring in tommys drawing.

While I have done T's and T to hub configurations esentially making a T with 3 fixtures hubbed at each end I dont see this becoming a mainstream in my installs. Maybe on EXTREMLY long runs.

I guess its just one of thoes things you need to try out to appreciate ? Joey lets do a 24v install in vegas. I got just the house for it so long as your buying the gear.

The Lighting Geek
05-02-2008, 09:38 AM
The window of Halogen regeneration cycle is longer. Twice as long from 1.2 volts to 2.4 volts. I am actually wiring my first job more evenly because the job allows it. We are still 4 fixtures to a branch hub on 14/2g, 3 branches to a trunk hub or home run 12/2. 12 35w fixtures per trunk home run. The drawing just shows how much flexibility there is because you have a larger window of 2.4 volts for the halogen cycle.

NightScenes
05-02-2008, 02:18 PM
The problem with that Tommy is that the eye can detect a .5 volt difference in lumens output. So while the lamp operates in those parameters it will look pretty crappy.

Mike M
05-02-2008, 04:35 PM
Not sure of this Paul, but .5 in volt difference may have a different effect on lumens for a 12 v bulb than on a 24 v bulb. It may be proportional.

NightScenes
05-03-2008, 08:08 AM
OK Mike but if you double it to 1 volt, which is the same as doubling all of these other calculations, and the parameters are 2.4 volts than if you are going by those parameters and not your eyes you will probably have a not so perfect looking lighting system. Just something to think about.

Mike M
05-03-2008, 02:08 PM
What we need to experience, is an actual installation. Nate will be doing this when he visits FOLD; the second day of his seminar will be an actual install.

NightScenes
05-03-2008, 02:27 PM
Be sure to take lots of photos and copious notes!!

NightLightingFX
05-03-2008, 02:54 PM
What makes me most uncomfortable about a 24v system is the lamps. I am assuming there is a less variety of beam spreads and wattages. I also wonder about the quality/life of the 24v lamps no one has had a lot of experience with them. I know from experience just because a lamp says 10,000 hrs that means nothing - "Prism" is good example. MAN I HATE PRISM
~Ned

The Lighting Geek
05-03-2008, 03:24 PM
the lamps are all available except for par 36 and they will be out in 9-10 months. I would not be doing this if I thought there was anything not worked out, trust me. It is something different and I think it is a good thing we are talking about it. It really is not any more complicated than what we are all already doing, just a little different. If you volt carefully and correctly you can extend the life of the bulbs to 150-175%. We are using less wire, less labor, less home runs to each transformer, and more flexibility. My guys love it, although it took a couple days to get their arms around it. Now they are running with it.

Chris J
05-03-2008, 08:49 PM
Mike, or anybody else in the area, are you going to the Unique seminar at FOLD? I just spent a few days in California with Nate, but I think I'm going to attend this just to get a bit more info on the whole concept. By the way Mike, you are not allowed to drive my truck this time.

Chris J
05-03-2008, 08:51 PM
For some strange reason, I am more excited about 24v systems than I am of LED. Don't ask me why, it's just a gut feeling I guess.

Mike M
05-03-2008, 10:18 PM
Chris,

If I go down, you can drive my F-150 and use it to push cars out of the way all you want.

I just don't know if I can make it down. Billy thinks I should stop spending money I don't have. I heard a guy on the radio say it perfect the other day: debt is the act of your future self going back in time to spend your money.

I hear Kichler may be offering 15 years for there LED's?? That's the LED and the fixture????

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
05-03-2008, 10:29 PM
6 hours per night x 365 nights per year = 2190 hrs per year.

40,000 hours / 2190 hrs = 18.26 years.

Why stop at 15 years?:laugh:

I can understand how the LEDs might last this long, but do you really think those ugly aluminum bodies will make it?

Mike M
05-03-2008, 10:44 PM
No, I don't! Funny, I was thinking the same freaking thing.

Chris J
05-03-2008, 10:51 PM
They come in brass also, but I'm still waiting to meet the guy who's had an LED system in his yard for 18 years with no complaints (regardless of the manufacturer).

Chris J
05-03-2008, 10:52 PM
By the way, I think the phrase even you have quoted is "see the effect, not the source."

Mike M
05-03-2008, 10:57 PM
Chris, when LED's are the norm, you'll have to wait ten or so more years before going back into lighting?

The key is big-manu backing via written warranty. 15 years from Kichler?? That's a bold statement, but like I said, I heard this, I didn't see it.

Chris J
05-03-2008, 11:02 PM
Chris, when LED's are the norm, you'll have to wait ten or so more years before going back into lighting?.

I'm trying, but I simply don't understand the statement. Go back into lighting? huh?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
05-03-2008, 11:06 PM
By the way, I think the phrase even you have quoted is "see the effect, not the source."

Absolutely!

But when you do see the source, like in the daytime, or when you happen to be walking past it, don't you want that source to be attractive?, to be visually appealing? to have the look and feel and performance of a quality product?

Great design, no matter what form it takes, requires a blend of form and function, not one over the other. (IMO) We practise this art on a daily basis. So why would anyone who understands this, and practices this, accept a line of products that are just so darned ugly? Sorry, but those Kichler LED products look like they belong in a box on a shelf in a store. (just look at that silly dc powered line... look at the application photo of it stuck onto the underside of a deck railing... I mean really!! would you? could you? I could not!)

My clients would have me ripping them out if I ever dared to install them.

There exists some awesome product on the market, from a huge array of awesome designers and manufacturers... I say put your energy into teaming those products with the best, most innovative manufacturers of LED lamps... Now you have a winning technology, manufactured by global leaders, installed in fantastic fixtures that have a proven track record.

I guess you can tell what direction I am taking! LOL

Chris J
05-03-2008, 11:13 PM
I guess, but from the articles I have read the Kichler line seems to be rated very high among those "in the know" in regard to lumen output, color rendition and quality. I haven't used it yet, although they did send me a sample that I have yet to try. At this stage of the game, I would'nt put my trust in anyone without more info. As I've said before, I'm not about to make guinnea pigs out of my clients. Some may call it "cutting edge technology," but I still need more info.

Mike M
05-03-2008, 11:14 PM
Chris;

You made reference to in-the-field proof indicating the LED's can last 15 years. My point was that you don't have 15 years to wait and see, so the next best thing is a big manu offering a 15 year warranty.

Chris J
05-03-2008, 11:18 PM
Chris;

You made reference to in-the-field proof indicating the LED's can last 15 years. My point was that you don't have 15 years to wait and see, so the next best thing is a big manu offering a 15 year warranty.

Oh, ha ha. Your so funny. Your not that much older than me are you? What are you, 48/49? By the way, I hear that 40 is the new 30 so there! I got plenty of time!

Mike M
05-03-2008, 11:23 PM
You are older than me by half a year old man!

Mike M
05-03-2008, 11:25 PM
Okay. Chris, let me explain it further. If everyone is installing LED's in a few years, that means you won't have the option of waiting to see if they last 15 years, if you don't want to fall way behind.

Chris J
05-03-2008, 11:29 PM
Or, I can stay in the "behind world" and watch everyone else be plagued by failure and unkept promises. This scenario would catapult me above and beyond the competition, and leave the other's chasing their tail.

P.S. That just didn't come out right. Stay in the behind world? No, I don't swing that way.

Mike M
05-03-2008, 11:34 PM
Wasn't Behind World one of the first films produced by Night Scenes?

Chris J
05-03-2008, 11:41 PM
Huh? Paul is making XXX movies now? He is diverse to say the least!