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Smallaxe
05-13-2008, 09:08 AM
My son has just recieved his liscence for application of herbicides. The HO has bought the garden variety stuff in the past and sprayed it on , but to no avail. Now this year the situation is critical and we need the weeds gone now.
Ground temps around 50 degrees here in central Wisconsin.

What would work best? Any help would be appreciated.

Rayholio
05-13-2008, 10:30 AM
Might try Cool Power for broadleaf control..

Marcos
05-13-2008, 11:25 AM
My son has just recieved his liscence for application of herbicides. The HO has bought the garden variety stuff in the past and sprayed it on , but to no avail. Now this year the situation is critical and we need the weeds gone now.
Ground temps around 50 degrees here in central Wisconsin.

What would work best? Any help would be appreciated.

Where is he shopping...now that he has his license ?

At Lesco/Deere, he can get Three Way Ester II for cool season weeds like that.

But tell him he's got to switch over to an "amine" (water based) formulation once the weather starts to get on the "warmer" side (when the daytime temps get consistently into the upper 70's-lower 80's).

Also...with the "ester" (alcohol based) formulations like Three Way Ester II, he should be ESPECIALLY careful about NOT spraying "under" bushes and / or tree driplines during "questionable" temperatures !!!
An applicator can actually "burn" newly emerging buds & leaves WITHOUT actually spraying them, because alcohol-based liquids can and will volatilize, especially as the temps rise a little.

A few trees I've known to be especially sensitive:
Dogwood, Eastern Redbud, Hawthorn, Mimosa, + any "weeping" landscape trees hanging over turf.

Stillwater
05-13-2008, 11:31 AM
My son has just recieved his liscence for application of herbicides. The HO has bought the garden variety stuff in the past and sprayed it on , but to no avail. Now this year the situation is critical and we need the weeds gone now.
Ground temps around 50 degrees here in central Wisconsin.

What would work best? Any help would be appreciated.

you could ask your son he should know...... I am currently useing eliminate-D

Smallaxe
05-13-2008, 08:55 PM
Thanks guys.
We don't have a Lesco around here that I am aware of and the Deere location may not even carry chemicals. I will try the Co-op and Jay-Mar and see if they carry any of these items.

It seems I read one time about adding a 'sticker' to the solution in order to get it to stick to the leaf better. Is that a good thing to do?
Browsing the threads it seems there are a number of tricks you guys have picked up on over the years. Thanks again...

Marcos
05-14-2008, 03:17 PM
Thanks guys.
We don't have a Lesco around here that I am aware of and the Deere location may not even carry chemicals. I will try the Co-op and Jay-Mar and see if they carry any of these items.

It seems I read one time about adding a 'sticker' to the solution in order to get it to stick to the leaf better. Is that a good thing to do?
Browsing the threads it seems there are a number of tricks you guys have picked up on over the years. Thanks again...


A 'sticker' is short for 'speader-sticker', or a substance something otherwise known as a surfactant.

I use, specifically, a "non-ionic surfactant", in everything I do, including turf landscape and nursery applications.

You're halfway correct with your definition.
It does help the herbicide / insecticide / fungicide "stick" to it's target better.

But a surfactant also defeats the hydrogen bond on a given surface to a degree...allowing the liquid to "spread" over the surface without 'beading up' so much.
This gives the applicator a higher % of target actually "hit", when it's sprayed.

For example:
Closely look at a patch of white clover sometime after you spray it with just plain ol' hose water.
See how the water just 'beads up' on the small leaves ?
Now...on a different patch of clover, do the same thing, but this time...use a hose-end sprayer with a modest amount of dish soap in it !!

Some "newbies" who don't have spray tanks with mechanical agitation actually do run around with backpack sprayers or whatever, with little bottles of Dawn / Palmolive, etc.
But obviously, if you wouldn't want to try this trick once you've invested the $$$ in the spray rig with jets or paddles.

If you did....it might look sorta like the pathetic scene from the infamous Brady Bunch "kids put too much soap in the washing machine" episode !!
:cry::dizzy::cry::dizzy::cry::dizzy:
:waving:

teeca
05-14-2008, 05:32 PM
how cheap can somebody be as to use dish soap?? buy a surfactant thats labled for lawncare. i've seen and heard people use soap, but come on your a pro. i'd like to see the look on the pesicide inspectors face when a guy told him he had tide in the tank mix, that would be a true kodak moment. ((this was not directed toward any persons post, just my thoughts on the matter))

cool power works great, you might try adding a surfactant, but becarfull not to over apply or you can cause damage to the turf and ornamentals... this time of year your weeds shouldn't be mature enough to warnt the surfactant (if your temps are still that cool, but you be the judge). also remember no matter what you use, the weeds will pretty much die as quickly as there growing.

do you have a tractor supply around? they carry LV4 which is an ester 2,4d and it will work fine. they also have speedzone, which is a newer type of broadleaf herbicide that has a very quick knock down and its also an ester (it cost about twice as much as anything else thats why i dont use it, again you be the judge)

FdLLawnMan
05-14-2008, 07:45 PM
Small Axe, you say central Wisconsin. Where exactly are you? I am near Fond du Lac and could give you some suggestions. The CO-OP will probably have MecAmine-D which will work with a sticker, but it will be slow. I am starting my weed control tomorrow with Speedzone. The soil temperatures are in the low 50's and there is a chance of frost tonight.

americanlawn
05-14-2008, 07:56 PM
Esters kick butt during cool weather. They also control hard-to-kill weeds better than amines (nomatter what the temps are). Chaser ester (UAP) is great. UAP/Loveland just improved their LI-700 --- a new product called Liberate does what LI-700 does, but it also contains anti-drift/anti-foam

lawnsbytim
05-14-2008, 09:34 PM
Ummm - Smallaxe - Didn't think I would see you on this side. Your closest Lesco/John Deere is here in Madison - they just moved to a new site in Middleton. If the lawn has a lot of creeping charlie or violets, I would recommend their Momentum FX. You need to use a spreader/sticker for best results.

Smallaxe
05-15-2008, 02:00 AM
Great explanation on surfactants. I visualized a drop of oil hitting the suface of a pail of water and spreading evenly over the entire surace. No beading and no separation. That makes sense as to why it would be better in making contact with the entire plant.

The liquid soap and the Brady Bunch analogy makes me wonder just exactly what is the best way to add surfactants to the mix. I've been a part of many Laurel and Hardy teams but never the Brady Bunch :)

We are just using spot sprayer for this job. What is the best way to apply the chemical along with the surfactant? Is dishsoap adequate or should I go with something else?

Thanks for the warning about over application becuz I am one, who would easily add an extra oz or 2 just to be sure. Surfactants would exaggerate that possibilty.
I am going with a 'low volitile ester' for the cool spring we are having. That was one lesson learned quickly. Thank you.

FD, I am about 1 and a half hour northwest of you. One of those one horse cheese towns :) Resort country.

Creeping charlie is the greatest threat we have on this location. We are in the woods - in a park like setting - and the turf barely competes with the trees. The creeping Charlie et. al. seem to be winning at this point. No irrigation.

Thanks everybody.

FdLLawnMan
05-15-2008, 02:09 AM
SmallAxe

There is a JDL/Lesco store in Kaukauna. Call them and ask for Dave. To get rid of Ivy you need something like Speedzone or Momentum Fx2.

Smallaxe
05-15-2008, 08:40 AM
The Valley is a doable trip. Thanks.

Marcos
05-15-2008, 03:17 PM
how cheap can somebody be as to use dish soap?? buy a surfactant thats labled for lawncare. i've seen and heard people use soap, but come on your a pro. i'd like to see the look on the pesicide inspectors face when a guy told him he had tide in the tank mix, that would be a true kodak moment. ((this was not directed toward any persons post, just my thoughts on the matter))



There are some people who honestly are not located anywhere near an outlet where they can easily buy stuff like surfactant regularly.

And, by the way...go the rear of the class!! :hammerhead:
"Tide" is a laundry soap, not a DISH soap !!!

Dawn / Palmolive / Joy dish soap is just fine to use for homeowners...as well as 'newbies' running around with backpacks working toward "bigger things", and/or generally the folks who don't specialize in chemicals for turf and landscape per se.
It's plain stupid for many of them to go out and buy a gallon or 2.5 gal of sticker, when they may only use a pint, or maybe a quart of it in their entire life!

Marcos
05-15-2008, 03:22 PM
You need to use a spreader/sticker for best results.

Smallaxe, Make sure you get spreader-sticker, and not sticker-spreader.

Marcos
05-15-2008, 03:40 PM
Creeping charlie is the greatest threat we have on this location. We are in the woods - in a park like setting - and the turf barely competes with the trees. The creeping Charlie et. al. seem to be winning at this point. No irrigation.



I have two things to say about this :

(In this part of the world at least)...you won't see turf growing naturally in any forest setting.

&

The #1 rule for control for ANY weed in a turf situation is plain and simple strong COMPETITION in the form of a thick stand of grass !!

Weed killers applied in shaded areas, in my opinion, are only putting a temporary Band-Aid on a larger problem...which is typically, again, "not enough turf ".

And frankly, weed killers, both liquid and / or "weed & feeds" often cause actual damage to alot of turf in shaded areas in the more stressed-out dog-day drought periods of the summer...mainly because the root system of the grass is so shallow anyway because it's literally "fighting for it's life" trying to get enough viable light and moisture to survive.

teeca
05-15-2008, 05:50 PM
There are some people who honestly are not located anywhere near an outlet where they can easily buy stuff like surfactant regularly.

And, by the way...go the rear of the class!! :hammerhead:
"Tide" is a laundry soap, not a DISH soap !!!

Dawn / Palmolive / Joy dish soap is just fine to use for homeowners...as well as 'newbies' running around with backpacks working toward "bigger things", and/or generally the folks who don't specialize in chemicals for turf and landscape per se.
It's plain stupid for many of them to go out and buy a gallon or 2.5 gal of sticker, when they may only use a pint, or maybe a quart of it in their entire life!

thanks for joining me in the back of the class.. you can by it in pint containers, so don't be such a pompas a$$ hole

Smallaxe
05-16-2008, 01:33 AM
I have two things to say about this :

(In this part of the world at least)...you won't see turf growing naturally in any forest setting.

&

The #1 rule for control for ANY weed in a turf situation is plain and simple strong COMPETITION in the form of a thick stand of grass !!

Weed killers applied in shaded areas, in my opinion, are only putting a temporary Band-Aid on a larger problem...which is typically, again, "not enough turf ".

And frankly, weed killers, both liquid and / or "weed & feeds" often cause actual damage to alot of turf in shaded areas in the more stressed-out dog-day drought periods of the summer...mainly because the root system of the grass is so shallow anyway because it's literally "fighting for it's life" trying to get enough viable light and moisture to survive.

I believe you are absolutely correct. We do have naturally growing grasses in this area that would do quite well in this particular environment. But - we are trying to maintain 'Hybrid KBG' sod and some 'no mow' fescue seed etc. in this most hostile environment. It's just silly.

Of course it is my drive to succeed - that pushes me to use the weed killer - so that I have an edge to win. W/out adequate water this particular site seems more difficult than usual. I have a much better lawn under the trees across the road. [also unirrigated]

The difference between the 2 is that my better lawn as been sprayed for weeds over 10 -15 years. The target lawn has risen from 'wild woods' only about 5 yrs. ago. So the hope is there!! and if the client can't get results from me they will try someone else.

My effort at this point is to keep the weed control more under my control. Thanks.

(wi) Roots
05-17-2008, 02:17 AM
Weed I.D. please?
or
do you know the difference?
You want it gone now?
Please!
Your already behind the eight ball on knowledge on what it will actually take to eliminate your problems with out Identifing your problem.
And, if your son is licensed, why are you asking?

mngrassguy
05-17-2008, 02:55 AM
Weed I.D. please?
or
do you know the difference?
You want it gone now?
Please!
Your already behind the eight ball on knowledge on what it will actually take to eliminate your problems with out Identifing your problem.
And, if your son is licensed, why are you asking?

Why are YOU asking?

Smallaxe
05-17-2008, 07:48 AM
He got a piece of paper from the gov't. That means he is allowed to START applications.
It does not mean he has a clue.

You know - like a graduate of botany/hort classes at university and ready to supervise my daily operations. Or a HO that has read a book and now gives me advice on when and how to transplant. I can do this all day.

Smallaxe
05-17-2008, 07:53 AM
Weed ID.

Creeping Charlie is the most problematic. Other than that I would say we have a sample of every Wiscoweed common to the area.

Marcos
05-19-2008, 02:26 PM
thanks for joining me in the back of the class.. you can by it in pint containers, so don't be such a pompas a$$ hole

teeca..:hammerhead:.call a Proctor & Gamble rep near you and ask him / her what the difference in
chemistry is between DISH soaps vs. liquid LAUNDRY soaps.

You'd find if you did... that dish soap generally has a much more 'simple' molecule.
And thus is more readily biodegradable.

More than enough "slipperyness" for the layman to do the job, though.
And not nearlyas expensive per cost / oz.

gorknoids
05-19-2008, 09:55 PM
how cheap can somebody be as to use dish soap?? buy a surfactant thats labled for lawncare. i've seen and heard people use soap, but come on your a pro. i'd like to see the look on the pesicide inspectors face when a guy told him he had tide in the tank mix, that would be a true kodak moment. ((this was not directed toward any persons post, just my thoughts on the matter))

cool power works great, you might try adding a surfactant, but becarfull not to over apply or you can cause damage to the turf and ornamentals... this time of year your weeds shouldn't be mature enough to warnt the surfactant (if your temps are still that cool, but you be the judge). also remember no matter what you use, the weeds will pretty much die as quickly as there growing.

do you have a tractor supply around? they carry LV4 which is an ester 2,4d and it will work fine. they also have speedzone, which is a newer type of broadleaf herbicide that has a very quick knock down and its also an ester (it cost about twice as much as anything else thats why i dont use it, again you be the judge)


I keep a bottle of dish detergent in my chemical shed and use it all the time while spraying. I also buy castor oil for moles at Walgreen's and mix it with cheap shampoo, which keeps me from paying someone else 20X the price of my outlay to do the same thing. Cheap pays! :cool2:

Smallaxe
05-19-2008, 11:00 PM
So this is "Sticker", vs. "Sticker"... Are we willing to "Talk" about it???

teeca
05-19-2008, 11:50 PM
the guy wants to learn and from the msg. at the bottom of his post, he makes the statment that he wants to, so... start him out on the correct route, use whats labled for lawncare.. dish soap (eventhough i've never used it, it can't even come close to the power of pentra-bark as a surfactant/adj. product. and if dish soap is soooo much better, then why doesn't proctor/gamble get in the lawn business, bayer did?? you guy's use what you want, but as a pro i use and price apps with labled products, i guess thats what seporates the men from the boy's. good luck on all that you apply.. thats all folks.
give backyard advise on pesticides and make your state hard a$$ like some of the ones in the south like florida or the north east like NJ and NY. all because of careless applications weather it be pro or homeowner, it all comes down to advise.. and he even admits that he will add alittle more to get the job done (lable or not)

Marcos
05-20-2008, 11:46 AM
the guy wants to learn and from the msg. at the bottom of his post, he makes the statment that he wants to, so... start him out on the correct route, use whats labled for lawncare.. dish soap (eventhough i've never used it, it can't even come close to the power of pentra-bark as a surfactant/adj. product. and if dish soap is soooo much better, then why doesn't proctor/gamble get in the lawn business, bayer did?? you guy's use what you want, but as a pro i use and price apps with labled products, i guess thats what seporates the men from the boy's. good luck on all that you apply.. thats all folks.
give backyard advise on pesticides and make your state hard a$$ like some of the ones in the south like florida or the north east like NJ and NY. all because of careless applications weather it be pro or homeowner, it all comes down to advise.. and he even admits that he will add alittle more to get the job done (lable or not)


teeca...All this comes down to is : "common sense". :)

Bigger applicators who have 100, 200, 300 gallon or larger tanks with agitation of ANY kind, jet OR paddle, could NOT, of course, use something like dish or laundry soap, because of the aforementioned "Brady Bunch" scenario likely occurring out the lid of his tank !! :cry::cry::cry:
...not even with the use of a defoaming agent.

You're right, the chemistry in a professional non-ionic surfactant is indeed superior.
But we're dealing with the REAL WORLD here.

We're talking about boatloads of OTHER types of people who wouldn't have cause to buy a gallon, or a 2.5 gallon jug of surfactant; because they'd more-than likely never use more than a QT of it !!!

Newbies in the spraying business...would want to buy the "good stuff" if they're serious about what they're doing...even when spraying out of backpacks...but sometimes $$$'s extremely tight for them, as I painfully remember ! :rolleyes:

Who wouldn't likely buy surfactant, who also would otherwise need to buy pesticides in general ?
Off the top of my head:

-Most homeowners
-Alot of business site managers taking care of small parcels of turf
-Landscapers, Hardscapers who don't specialize in turf...but otherwise spray small areas for weeds occasionally and / or tree shrub pest control on these sites
-people who live in remote areas..who can't access it very easily

Smallaxe
05-21-2008, 07:37 PM
Thanks Marcos :) That basically is where we are. I am not pushing my son to do full tilt boogie anything. He has a job and a 3 acre plot to clear. If he fails - so what, If he succeeds we move forward.

Why would the manufacturers NOT have a decent sticker in the chemical? I would pay more for that even if it does not work as well as something else that needs purchased and mixed.

Maybe I did add 5% or 10% extra of consumer mix which would be the equivalent of an additional 1.25 % to 2.50% AI. Which was still insufficient and lame.

That is why I wanted to LEARN what would make a difference in the apps. The product and the label failed and that is an irritation to me.

Be assured that I will just dump the useless kr@pp in the lake - b4 - I applied any higher levels above the label recommendations. :)
Seriously though - the HO bought this all on sale so we have like 4 gallons to go to toxic waste dumps. What is that all about?!?!?

RigglePLC
05-21-2008, 09:13 PM
I have used dish soap, laundry soap, nonionic surfactant, and premium silicone surfactant ($100 per gallon) --at various times in my 400 gallon tank with fertilizer and herbicide. It wets the weeds better--more effective in my opinion. The laundry soap types smell rather nice. No foaming problems in the big 400 gallon tank--but--have foam trouble in Permagreen tank, as it is a hot mix applied at low volume. I no longer use surfactant in Permagreen.

Smallaxe
05-22-2008, 02:16 PM
Thanks everyone. It is good to see all sides of everything.

MDAutry
05-22-2008, 03:10 PM
RigglePLC are you a franchizee or your own business? I have seen a lot of SpringGreen guys using that sprayer/spreader...

Marcos
05-22-2008, 05:22 PM
Why would the manufacturers NOT have a decent sticker in the chemical? I would pay more for that even if it does not work as well as something else that needs purchased and mixed.



The answer to this question is the ongoing concern by formulators of 'chemical compatibility' of various pesticides... to the very limited number of formulations of surfactants on the market today.

Some chemical formulations are quite stable with surfactants in concentration on the shelf for a period of time, but many others are not.

I believe this has alot to do with extending the shelf "1/2 life" of a given A.I. as long as possible, when determinations are made whether to put sticker in the concentrate or not.

For example....the non-selective herbicides (ones that kill everything they touch) are quite often sold with a spreader-sticker included.
(i.e.....most 'Roundup' type products sold today, except Roundup original)

Also, the lion's share of golf course and professionally applied turf FUNGICIDES also have a surfactant already included.

To my knowledge....just about all selective herbicides and insecticides do not contain any sticker.

Smallaxe
05-22-2008, 07:50 PM
That would make sense. Thanks.

RigglePLC
05-22-2008, 10:30 PM
I am not a franchise. I worked for Tru Green, but went on my own 20 years ago.
Spreader stickers or surfactants are sold separately so that you can adjust the solution (either low-volume or high volume), to the type of weed you are working on--easy to wet, or waxy and hard to wet. A little foam problem or a lot. Paddle agitation can really produce some big foam volumes at times. Surfactants are costly if you don't need them. I use a surfactant in my high volume weed with fertilizer applications.