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Victor
05-20-2008, 12:20 AM
While I was out running my route today, I got the wondering about something guys. As I would drive down various streets in the neighborhoods I service, I saw quite a few lawns that had Trugreen Chemlawn written all over them. These lawns had that dark green color to them that dumping copious amounts of nitrogen on lawns tends to yield. As I would see these lawns, I started wondering how many of you were ever tempted to give in to the urge to make your lawns as dark as possible like that. Of course you can use fe to accomplish the same thing, but you won't get that long-lasting color without a lot of fe treatments.
Obviously, now's a bad time to dose a lawn with nitrogen the way TG does, but unfortunately, a lot of customers out there equate the shade of a lawn with it's health. In other words, the darker the lawn, the healthier they think it is. As far as I'm concerned, I know the way I'm dosing lawns is commensurate with sound practices. I'm really happy with the color I get out of my lawns, as are my customers. My lawns aren't always as dark green as TG lawns tend to be for the aforementioned reasons, but it is what it is.
Just curious to read any thoughts anyone would care to share on this.

ant
05-20-2008, 06:09 AM
Vick i am with you. i got asked a few times by the lawn cutters "why are the others green and ours are not) well this year i loaded them up and they look great,growing and the best part is the lawn cutters are not birchen ,,

turf hokie
05-20-2008, 06:30 AM
I tried that once and the cutters threw fits. Besides all it did was put the lawns on a roller coaster ride and they suffered for it in the heat of the summer. I prefer to do the right thing and have a consistent color ALL season. Some of their lawns might be a little darker now but mine are green in the summer when theirs are brown with stress, insects and disease.

Smallaxe
05-20-2008, 07:43 AM
Building the root system is job one. Too much water is just as bad as too much N. Most of these lawns are shallow rooted and in constant need of the N fix to have the dark green color.
For Northern areas the spring N app is about the worst thing to do.

Marcos
05-20-2008, 09:04 AM
Applying 'Fast' N, and / or just plain melted down urea is just plain poor business practice...in the long run.

Homeowners appear happier because the color is better than the Jones' next door. But they really don't think about the fact that they're REALLY getting ripped off due to all of the extra mowings they're having to do themselves / pay for EVERY year, because of all the unneccesary top flush growth such practises tend to spur on.

Not to mention the other problems such abuses can cause...such as potentially making thatch issues worse in bluegrass & other rhizomous turf, as well as lighting the ignition fire under spring and early summer dollar spot and brown patch nightmares in virtually ALL types of turf.

Ric
05-20-2008, 09:19 AM
Victor

You have been a member here long enough to remember Timturf and myself trying to give fertilizer lessons a few years back. I won't open the sore subject as to why we stopped.

The Bottom line is, in general Nitrogen is not the real reason for the dark green. I won't say it doesn't help, but what type of Nitrogen and what Minor element are also present make the differences in the color of turf. I can and do make turf dark dark green without excessive Nitrogen. Like a Cook once told me, You got to know your Onions.

Marcos
05-20-2008, 09:47 AM
I can and do make turf dark dark green without excessive Nitrogen. Like a Cook once told me, You got to know your Onions.

Good for you.

It's really nice to know that there are a few LCOs like you out there still carrying a flicker of common sense...amidst all of the money-grabbing self-serving corporate types and/or 'cost-cutter' little guys who are largely ignorant about what they're applying to the turf...and exactly what it does.

Ric
05-20-2008, 10:31 AM
Good for you.

It's really nice to know that there are a few LCOs like you out there still carrying a flicker of common sense...amidst all of the money-grabbing self-serving corporate types and/or 'cost-cutter' little guys who are largely ignorant about what they're applying to the turf...and exactly what it does.

Marcos

I might be just a Lawn boy, But At Least I try to be a educated Lawn Boy that can be proud of my work knowing I am doing the best job I can. I put down more SOP than nitrogen each year and SOP shows no visible response except for a healthy turf in stress times.

Runner
05-20-2008, 11:38 AM
Same here. We are however reaching a point that some of our lawns are so thick, that I am backing off quite as much potassium and opting for a formulation like 32-0-8 - 30% slow release. Economically it is helping, and I can get a bag to go a LONG way. I miss the iron, though. It is a short but sweet stint, but nice in color. Now, if I could get hold of a slow release iron, I would be all set. :)

Ric
05-20-2008, 01:09 PM
Same here. We are however reaching a point that some of our lawns are so thick, that I am backing off quite as much potassium and opting for a formulation like 32-0-8 - 30% slow release. Economically it is helping, and I can get a bag to go a LONG way. I miss the iron, though. It is a short but sweet stint, but nice in color. Now, if I could get hold of a slow release iron, I would be all set. :)

Runner

Way to go, Just forget the horrible Potash and Iron and pour a lot more nitrogen to it. What the heck you can always up sell a thatch job.

Marcos
05-20-2008, 01:44 PM
Runner

Way to go, Just forget the horrible Potash and Iron and pour a lot more nitrogen to it. What the heck you can always up sell a thatch job.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Ric
05-20-2008, 02:08 PM
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Marcos

I am using the South Avondale program. After I spread 46-0-0, I burn the bag and spread the ashes on the turf. It sure beats the price of Scotts Turf builder 29-2-3 and shows the same great response.

jbturf
05-20-2008, 06:40 PM
seems just the opposite in my area, like TGCL applies
very little to nothing on alot of properties, of course
i dont know for sure what the hell those guys are doing,

but i will tell you i have witnessed tgcl techs on more than
one occasion spreading with an empty spreader!

But- keep up the good work tgcl--your making the
rest of us look good

Marcos
05-20-2008, 07:20 PM
South Avondale program. After I spread 46-0-0, I burn the bag and spread the ashes on the turf. It sure beats the price of Scotts Turf builder 29-2-3 and shows the same great response.


Oh, so are you maybe a Cincy transplant that moved to the South ?

I would think any 'South Avondale' program would have to contain a fair amount of vomit, blood, and urine in the mix (as opposed to urea :laugh:).

Probably a kind of new 'trendy' compost topdressing could be made with all the partially decomposed condoms found on the streets of Avondale and Clifton around U.C., with it's :cry: 'mystery contents' :cry: still intact so that the microbes can start to work on them.

ICT Bill
05-20-2008, 09:13 PM
Probably a kind of new 'trendy' compost topdressing could be made with all the partially decomposed condoms found on the streets of Avondale and Clifton around U.C.,

Sad but truer than you know, might as well sprinkle aresnic and lead on your wheaties every morning

Stay away from toxic waste

Victor
05-20-2008, 09:15 PM
seems just the opposite in my area, like TGCL applies
very little to nothing on alot of properties, of course
i dont know for sure what the hell those guys are doing,

but i will tell you i have witnessed tgcl techs on more than
one occasion spreading with an empty spreader!

But- keep up the good work tgcl--your making the
rest of us look good

It's funny JB. On some lawns around here, they do a horrible job. These lawns are weed ridden and have absolutely no color. Other lawns of theirs get the usual half-ton of 46-0-0 each and every app. Those lawns display a really dark green color, but also have the usual issues dumping that much N on a lawn causes. It's my impression that most of the differences I'm seeing are because different lawns are treated by different techs. Some of their techs are better than others. The same can be said about the desire of each tech to do a good (or fairly good) job. Quite a few lawns around here look really good from a distance (and to the untrained eye up close). I'll give them that.

DeepGreenLawn
05-20-2008, 09:25 PM
My experience is about the same Victor, I can walk up to a yard and pretty well know if they had been treating it or not. Generally the symptoms before they can get the N down is a poor patchy lawn. I talk to the customers and they say they have been with someone for a couple of years, I turn around and that tells me for sure. There are a few others that I know treat because of the infestation of weeds as I walk up and they say that it has been treated twice.

I just got a customer using one of my major business suppliers (crappy LCO's) and they had their sign out front. The customer called complaining there were weeds everywhere. Sure enough it was full, said he had been using them all the past year and up till then. They had just been there that morning to treat the weeds so I told the customer to keep me posted and I would start with the next fert app at the proper time. He just called me today and said that the weeds were not only just as full and healthy as before but that there was about twice as many.

I just don't get it, but hey, the guy said as long as I keep the weeds out and the lawn healthy he will take care of me. "Just take care of me GD!" were his words. I said No prob. I will be out tomorrow to kill the weeds. Just give me a minute to clean up their screwup. Easy sell, easy happy customer. I LOVE IT!

deanslists
05-20-2008, 09:47 PM
Please don't think this is a stupid question. I am just starting out and was wondering:
What is the best way to keep your lawn healthy and weed free.
1) What to apply
2) How often to apply
3) When to apply

Thanks for all the help.:waving:

ICT Bill
05-20-2008, 09:58 PM
Please don't think this is a stupid question. I am just starting out and was wondering:
What is the best way to keep your lawn healthy and weed free.
1) What to apply
2) How often to apply
3) When to apply

Thanks for all the help

Its not a dumb question it just has so many answers there is almost no place to start
Cut high, water less and apply less

quiet
05-20-2008, 10:55 PM
Marcos

I might be just a Lawn boy, But At Least I try to be a educated Lawn Boy that can be proud of my work knowing I am doing the best job I can. I put down more SOP than nitrogen each year and SOP shows no visible response except for a healthy turf in stress times.

Yup!

Funny what you learn by reading . . .

I have fun when August comes around here. . . when it hasn't rained in 2 months, and ain't gonna rain for another month.

The only green lawns in an entire retirement community . . . and using less water than their neighbors!

But I just stay at 1-0-1 for 1st 3 rounds, last 2 get 21-0-0 . . . great for high P, high K, high ph clay soils.

Ric
05-20-2008, 11:11 PM
Yup!

Funny what you learn by reading . . .

I have fun when August comes around here. . . when it hasn't rained in 2 months, and ain't gonna rain for another month.

The only green lawns in an entire retirement community . . . and using less water than their neighbors!

But I just stay at 1-0-1 for 1st 3 rounds, last 2 get 21-0-0 . . . great for high P, high K, high ph clay soils.

Quite

I talk often with a guy from Dallas, High pH clay soil. Have you tried straight Sulfur applications??????

Runner
05-20-2008, 11:13 PM
Ric,
You have to understand how thick our grass is, though. It is like no one elses in this area. It is so thick and crowded, that we don't WANT it to grow any thicker. As it is, when even an inch is being mowed off, the discharge chutes are full. It is NOTHING like warm season grasses. We can mow at 3 inches high, walk out and hold a golf ball straight out, drop the golf ball, and this ball will hit the grass and stay right on top. It is really rather incredible. Actually, if we back off on the potash (not real low or stop all together, just back down to about 8%), we will be fine for some years to come. I'm still staying awa from the high N's, as I am using 32% (30% scu), and getting around 18M out of a 15M bag.:)

Ric
05-20-2008, 11:22 PM
Oh, so are you maybe a Cincy transplant that moved to the South ?

I would think any 'South Avondale' program would have to contain a fair amount of vomit, blood, and urine in the mix (as opposed to urea :laugh:).

Probably a kind of new 'trendy' compost topdressing could be made with all the partially decomposed condoms found on the streets of Avondale and Clifton around U.C., with it's :cry: 'mystery contents' :cry: still intact so that the microbes can start to work on them.

Marcos

U.C. late 60's.

Back When

myers611
05-20-2008, 11:39 PM
I find it hard to believe TG is putting down enough to make the lawns that green considering the price of urea, I figured this year they would resort to straight water

quiet
05-20-2008, 11:51 PM
Quite

I talk often with a guy from Dallas, High pH clay soil. Have you tried straight Sulfur applications??????

No, but . . . hmmmm. You're trying to teach me something, again. Lemme think on this one . . .

21-0-0 is soooo beneficial for our clay soils . . . what it frees up in these alkaline, clay soils . . . amazing!

And Lebanon's 19-0-19 w/MESA.

Such roots! Such color!

With 5 fert apps needed in zone 8b, tif is so much fun! I can get away with 3 lbs of K/yr because of the clay. Then the exchange from the 21-0-0 . . .

. . . and I'm still a beginner.

Marcos
05-21-2008, 12:06 AM
I find it hard to believe TG is putting down enough to make the lawns that green considering the price of urea, I figured this year they would resort to straight water

They'll usually wait to apply their application of straight water until round "whatever"...which is in late August / early September, when the ground around here's typically hard as a brick.

...and by that point in the season, frankly, most folks have lost the will to fight their lawn problems any longer...so they throw their wallets open. It's another easy STEAL for TGCL !

Chilehead
05-21-2008, 12:13 AM
I have always been fond of Lesco's 24-2-11 with 6% Fe. Keeps lawn looking awesome.

whoopassonthebluegrass
05-21-2008, 01:47 AM
I run Iron with all my treatments but the winterizer. Why? BECAUSE IT GETS CUSTOMERS. Doesn't hurt the lawn and it's not a bad practice. But I do it for the WOW factor. I do it so neighbors ask who does the lawn...

And this year I'm experimenting with blends. For round two I'm running equal parts N and K with a heavy dose of Fe... I'll probably run that all the way through the rest of the year...

naughty62
05-21-2008, 06:58 AM
Gotta keep up with jones .We got some homeowners and the try to get thier grass darker than the new neighbors .One guy just will not give it up .The guy to the west installed a high dollar dwarf kbg/rye sod and a fertigation system and the guy on the other side responded overseeding with every spring and fall with what seems to be a midnight type kbg mix . And our guy in middle Is constantly whining and wants us to turn his old cultivar kbg black ,but when he gets get solutions and quotes he gets real quiet and his wallet swells shut . L.O.L.

DeepGreenLawn
05-21-2008, 09:07 AM
how long do you find that the iron lasts before you start losing your color? I have a customer who wants a dark green lawn so I thought I might throw some iron down to make him happy.

Runner
05-21-2008, 09:17 AM
Unfortunately, iron is just a quick snap (hence, the short but sweet comment I made above). It will last a couple of weeks, but it is FAST in green up, like within a week. Now, these guys that are running 6%, may get a while longer out of theirs, because it will take the grass a bit to lighten back up. We only run 2%. I would love to try 6% sometime, but have no idea what the cost factor would be up here. It probably wouldn't be feasible.

DeepGreenLawn
05-21-2008, 09:33 AM
I take it a couple of weeks is about 2-3 weeks? Anyone that uses 6% get better length of time?

Do you just retreat that often or do they wait for the next treatment?

Stillwater
05-21-2008, 09:53 AM
lesco 5-10-31 10%fe last 4 weeks or more

whoopassonthebluegrass
05-21-2008, 10:31 AM
I take it a couple of weeks is about 2-3 weeks? Anyone that uses 6% get better length of time?

Do you just retreat that often or do they wait for the next treatment?

If you run it stronger, the grass turns even darker - which means there's an even greater color range the customer will see over time...

But once per treatment is plenty. They don't see the gradual fade (until the neighbor's gets done).

Ric
05-21-2008, 10:52 AM
No, but . . . hmmmm. You're trying to teach me something, again. Lemme think on this one . . .

21-0-0 is soooo beneficial for our clay soils . . . what it frees up in these alkaline, clay soils . . . amazing!

And Lebanon's 19-0-19 w/MESA.

Such roots! Such color!

With 5 fert apps needed in zone 8b, tif is so much fun! I can get away with 3 lbs of K/yr because of the clay. Then the exchange from the 21-0-0 . . .

. . . and I'm still a beginner.

Quite

0-0-0-90 is 90% Sulfur and 10% Bentonite. 10 pounds per thousand will lower pH 1 point in 30 days and help clean sodium from exchange sites. By lowering pH you break lose soil bound nutrients, making them available to plants. Sulfur is only temporary like most fertilize and should be applied at least twice a year. Sulfur on Calcareous soils it like lime is to acidic soil. Ideally you want a pH of 6.

For every pound of nitrogen in 21-0-0 there is 1.2 pounds of Sulfur. That is why 21-0-0 is working for you. 21-0-0 is actually 21-0-0-24. To fully understand fertilize you must read past the top 3 numbers. You can either study fertilizer and know, or use what the counter clerk at Lesco tells you to use. I prefer to tell the counter clerk what I need instead of buying what he is pushing this week.

Many years ago I saw a picture painted in turf of Jesus. The artist used fertilizer as his medium. No other material was used. I realized then that different forms on the same element gave turf different shades of green. It was a moving experience that made me want to study fertilizer not religion.

Stillwater
05-21-2008, 10:57 AM
Quite

0-0-0-90 is 90% Sulfur and 10% Bentonite. 10 pounds per thousand will lower pH 1 point in 30 days and help clean sodium from exchange sites. By lowering pH you break lose soil bound nutrients, making them available to plants. Sulfur is only temporary like most fertilize and should be applied at least twice a year. Sulfur on Calcareous soils it like lime is to acidic soil. Ideally you want a pH of 6.

For every pound of nitrogen in 21-0-0 there is 1.2 pounds of Sulfur. That is why 21-0-0 is working for you. 21-0-0 is actually 21-0-0-24. To fully understand fertilize you must read past the top 3 numbers. You can either study fertilizer and know, or use what the counter clerk at Lesco tells you to use. I prefer to tell the counter clerk what I need instead of buying what he is pushing this week.

Many years ago I saw a picture painted in turf of Jesus. The artist used fertilizer as his medium. No other material was used. I realized then that different forms on the same element gave turf different shades of green. It was a moving experience that made me want to study fertilizer not religion.

I think I saw that picture or something like it.....

Ric
05-21-2008, 11:41 AM
I think I saw that picture or something like it.....


Stillwater

I was many years ago I saw a picture. I believe it was done in Calf. I am sure others have done it also. One time I wanted to write my company name in turf where everyone could see it. Great advertising and real cheap to do. I was thinking interstate hwy exchanges where the bridge bank is very steep like a bill board. Problem is our rainy season that would run the letters together.

whoopassonthebluegrass
05-21-2008, 11:43 AM
Stillwater

I was many years ago I saw a picture. I believe it was done in Calf. I am sure others have done it also. One time I wanted to write my company name in turf where everyone could see it. Great advertising and real cheap to do. I was thinking interstate hwy exchanges where the bridge bank is very steep like a bill board. Problem is our rainy season that would run the letters together.

Then go the other way and do it with Round-Up. :dancing:

Ric
05-21-2008, 11:49 AM
Then go the other way and do it with Round-Up. :dancing:

Whoopass

You are being a smart azz.

whoopassonthebluegrass
05-21-2008, 11:50 AM
Whoopass

You are being a smart azz.

Now what would give you that impression? :laugh:

Stillwater
05-21-2008, 08:00 PM
I saw the words PAY ME mowed in a lawn last year......

whoopassonthebluegrass
05-21-2008, 08:01 PM
I saw the words PAY ME mowed in a lawn last year......

I've considered the same, but with Round-Up... but I think they'll know who did it...

DeepGreenLawn
05-21-2008, 08:42 PM
I saw a lawn in my neighborhood looked like someone sloshed round up everywhere. My neighbor sprayed all his weeds with round up this year but this one was obviously done on purpose. Didn't think it would ever grow back.

Victor
05-21-2008, 08:56 PM
Victor

You have been a member here long enough to remember Timturf and myself trying to give fertilizer lessons a few years back. I won't open the sore subject as to why we stopped.

The Bottom line is, in general Nitrogen is not the real reason for the dark green. I won't say it doesn't help, but what type of Nitrogen and what Minor element are also present make the differences in the color of turf. I can and do make turf dark dark green without excessive Nitrogen. Like a Cook once told me, You got to know your Onions.

I really do miss TimTurf. He really was a great resource. Of all the members that used to frequent this board, I'd have to rank him as the #2 most knowledgeable member of this board.

I know there are a lot of other ingredients in a bag of fertilizer that affect the color, or shade of turf. I think you misunderstood my question. I'm asking if anyone out there has been considering "turning to the dark side" by using the tactics TrueGreen uses to get the dark green color out of their lawns. The main reason why their lawns display the dark green shade they do around here, is because they bombard them with 46-0-0 round, after round.

While dumping way too much N on a lawn isn't the ONLY way to get that kind of color out of a lawn, that IS how they do it around here. I'm just wondering if anyone reading this had been tempted to adopt TG's tactics. A member of this board called me today and told me that they WERE in fact tempted to adopt TG's heavy N tactic.

lawnguy26
05-21-2008, 09:49 PM
The Bottom line is, in general Nitrogen is not the real reason for the dark green. I won't say it doesn't help, but what type of Nitrogen and what Minor element are also present make the differences in the color of turf. I can and do make turf dark dark green without excessive Nitrogen.


Only N and one minor to make it dark green? Which one minor would that be? Fe being the obvious choice but something tells me your thinking of something else.

Stillwater
05-21-2008, 10:38 PM
krylon............

DeepGreenLawn
05-21-2008, 10:48 PM
what about sherwin williams?

heritage
05-21-2008, 11:17 PM
Only N and one minor to make it dark green? Which one minor would that be? Fe being the obvious choice but something tells me your thinking of something else.

I would have said S in Sulfate form, but I believe this is a Secondary Macro.




So I will say Zn.


I also like MgS04, and CaN03, but as Ric can tell you, there are other factors that Dictate what, when and why...

It's both Art and Science guys.....Like "You Gotta Know Your Onions" Remark.

So True.

I still learn daily, how to be a better cook.


Pete

ted putnam
05-21-2008, 11:56 PM
TG gets some decent color on their lawns around here...if the tech puts enough fert out. Problem is, dark green color only says so much in the thin bladed improved bermuda lawns that are predominant in this area. I'm not that familiar with Fescue/Bluegrass lawns. I do know they are mowed at about 4 inches where ours are mowed at 1.5-2 inches. Maybe it's easier to hide weeds in a Northern lawn but down here if there are weeds in a lawn, even just a couple, they stick out like a sore thumb and you can't hide that with dark, green color...TG shoots themselves in the foot right out of the gate on the weed issue alone around here.

FdLLawnMan
05-22-2008, 05:29 AM
Trugreen applies anywhere from a 1/4 to a 1/2 lb of urea along with iron to the lawn every so many weeks depending on how many steps the customer bought. Seeing that straight urea only lasts up to 5 weeks, 6 maybe, the lawns go on a real roller coaster ride. I have picked up a lot of customers in my area because they couldn't understand what Trugreen was applying the the lawn in the middle of an extended dry period that we usually get in the middle of the summer. Trugreen is on a schedule and needs to keep those guys busy, weather be damned. Virtually no one up here irrigates so that has to be taken into consideration when setting up a program.

Ric
05-22-2008, 10:40 AM
Only N and one minor to make it dark green? Which one minor would that be? Fe being the obvious choice but something tells me your thinking of something else.

Lawbguy

Yep I am thinking something else for my calcareous sandy soil. Not that Fe or sulfur doesn't help. But what works for me doesn't necessarily work in your soil. Sorry I am not giving out my cocktail mix to anyone, even if it isn't right for your area.

Victor

Groundskper & Tremor were the most knowledgeable people IMHO that ever posted on LS. Both are cool season experts. TimTurf is a transitional turf and has both cool & warm season knowledge. I have respect for TimTurf and many members here. We still have some very knowledgeable people posting here, but not as many as before. My ego want to rank me in the top 10, but that can be debated.

Victor
05-22-2008, 01:30 PM
Lawbguy

Yep I am thinking something else for my calcareous sandy soil. Not that Fe or sulfur doesn't help. But what works for me doesn't necessarily work in your soil. Sorry I am not giving out my cocktail mix to anyone, even if it isn't right for your area.

Victor

Groundskper & Tremor were the most knowledgeable people IMHO that ever posted on LS. Both are cool season experts. TimTurf is a transitional turf and has both cool & warm season knowledge. I have respect for TimTurf and many members here. We still have some very knowledgeable people posting here, but not as many as before. My ego want to rank me in the top 10, but that can be debated.

Steve, Groundskeeper and Tim do make for one heck of a line-up. All 3 are definitely at the top of the list. That would be hard to deny.

In my opinion, you're definitely well within the top 10 most knowledgeable people in this forum with regards to turf-science Ric. When you self-aggrandize so often though (and you know you do), you end up looking like a horse's arse. Leave that kind of crap to insecure children on the playground Ric. Everyone here knows how knowledgeable you are in regards to turf-science. You don't need to play "big me, little you" to better your position. I hope Marcos points his ears and heeds this advice too, because he's every bit as guilty as you are of the "big me, little you games." I'd say he easily falls within that top 10 list too.

You and Marcos remind me of my neighbor's son. He has a crotch rocket that he's done extensive work to. Everyone around here knows how much work he's put into that darn thing. We also all know that that bike is as fast as they come. The problem with him is that every time you turn around, you can hear him revving the thing. You'll see him just sitting on it in his driveway revving the engine while looking around to see if anyone's looking. It's like he wants people to look at him and say, "wow!" "Now that kid's got a fast bike!" What has happened though, is he's become the joke of the neighborhood. When he sits out there and has one of his regular rev sessions, we're all laughing at him because he's making himself look so ridiculous.

Both you and Marcos know your stuff. Everyone in the forum knows that. Stop revving your engines guys and we'll stop laughing at you. :waving:

whoopassonthebluegrass
05-22-2008, 01:37 PM
...my neighbor's son. He has a crotch rocket that he's done extensive work to. Everyone around here knows how much work he's put into that darn thing. We also all know that that bike is as fast as they come. The problem with him is that every time you turn around, you can hear him revving the thing. You'll see him just sitting on it in his driveway revving the engine while looking around to see if anyone's looking. It's like he wants people to look at him and say, "wow!" "Now that kid's got a fast bike!"

Hahaha. That's pretty funny. Though I suppose the noise gets old after a while... Very much like the guy who peels out in his truck EVERY time he takes off. I can't help but think: way to ruin your nice truck...

turfsurfer
05-22-2008, 11:03 PM
I'll tell you Victor, I have noticed some of these real green lawns in the past myself. I even quit mowing one of them one year because the customer wouldn't pay my price for treatments and I couldn't keep up with the mowing after this lowballers treatments. One thing I have done is wait for these lawns to go completely south when summer hits because that is what everybody always said (and says) they would do. And you know what? Many times I have not seen the drastic decline as predicted. The lawns looked pretty good all year. I really think it depends on the year and the weather. These lawns probably take more of a beating during hot humid summers. Most of the lawns I get from the big guys are a result of the opposite condition. Lawns that have been treated for years and are full of weeds and UNDERnourished. Point is, I don't know what to tell you. I know I rolled out with 0-0-7 dimension this spring after a heavy late fall feeding last season.

Marcos
05-22-2008, 11:39 PM
You don't need to play "big me, little you" to better your position. I hope Marcos points his ears and heeds this advice too, because he's every bit as guilty as you are of the "big me, little you games." I'd say he easily falls within that top 10 list too.

You and Marcos remind me of my neighbor's son. He has a crotch rocket that he's done extensive work to. Everyone around here knows how much work he's put into that darn thing. We also all know that that bike is as fast as they come. The problem with him is that every time you turn around, you can hear him revving the thing. You'll see him just sitting on it in his driveway revving the engine while looking around to see if anyone's looking. It's like he wants people to look at him and say, "wow!" "Now that kid's got a fast bike!" What has happened though, is he's become the joke of the neighborhood. When he sits out there and has one of his regular rev sessions, we're all laughing at him because he's making himself look so ridiculous.

Both you and Marcos know your stuff. Everyone in the forum knows that. Stop revving your engines guys and we'll stop laughing at you. :waving:

Hi Vic !!

:waving:

Sorry I couldn't take the time to exchange blows...(oops..I meant blogs :rolleyes:) with you this afternoon here on lawnsite...when it was generally SUNNY AND 65 F outside here in the great Buckeye State....the one we both live in, right ?!?

But....ya know...I was busy 'working'....
Work...you know, the thing you have to do to sustain yourself and your families livelihood...for the future, and all ?!?

Must be nice, sitting around on your tush on a beautiful day like today in Columbus with apparently nothing to do....

Did ya play golf, maybe ?!?

Hey...maybe if you're not doing anything 'productive', ya know, like the thing I described called 'work' tomorrow (when it gets up into the mid 70's temp-wise)....maybe you can write some more little backbiting reviews critiquing all of the rest of lawnsite's pesticide forum bloggers, too !!!

:waving:

Smallaxe
05-23-2008, 06:47 AM
Trugreen applies anywhere from a 1/4 to a 1/2 lb of urea along with iron to the lawn every so many weeks depending on how many steps the customer bought. Seeing that straight urea only lasts up to 5 weeks, 6 maybe, the lawns go on a real roller coaster ride. I have picked up a lot of customers in my area because they couldn't understand what Trugreen was applying the the lawn in the middle of an extended dry period that we usually get in the middle of the summer. Trugreen is on a schedule and needs to keep those guys busy, weather be damned. Virtually no one up here irrigates so that has to be taken into consideration when setting up a program.

That is a point that never seems to be taken into consideration much. "Irrigation or no" - and - "weather be damned".

Low maintenance lawn has a whole different set of criteria than a high maintenance lawn. Is the high maintenance lawn healthier, greener and more resiliant? Absolutely not. But it is a simple equation of apps and water.

Low maintenance requires considering the grass' individual needs in the various situations it is in. Modern lawncare has little to do with raising grass or thought about what raising grass means; rather has too much to do with the 'best' way of keeping a patch of ground green, no matter the excesses involved.
Then - w/out irrigation the whole system comes tumbling down.

The squirt and fert operations I've seen have the mentality of: "Put in irrigation or we will proceed to kill your grass a little more each summer."

whoopassonthebluegrass
05-23-2008, 09:50 AM
Modern lawncare has little to do with raising grass or thought about what raising grass means; rather has too much to do with the 'best' way of keeping a patch of ground green, no matter the excesses involved.

You're right, and I don't disagree with you. But the reason for this is because it's what the market demands!

Way too many people who can't outshine the nieghbors will try another company who will help them towards that end. I waste a crapload of money on Fe each round, and it's just to please the customer. It doesn't do squat for the grass, but too many would feel like I was unsatisfactory - were I to cease applying it.

Thus, I have to suffer with a lower profit margin simply because people are uneducated in regards to turfgrass management. (And PLEASE, nobody post the rhetoric about "educating the customer". You know as well as I that there's always a group of folks who think what they think and want what they want, regardless of how much data/proof you provide them with.)

I am trying hard to go about this the right way, experimenting with various blends and ratios, micronutrients... Though I admit that in the past I had a season that was straight 46-0-0 + Fe. (And, as a side note - it really showed the next year that I'd short-changed the health of the grass. Lawns heat stressed crazy fast due to my negligence.)

Victor
05-23-2008, 11:52 AM
Hi Vic !!

:waving:

Sorry I couldn't take the time to exchange blows...(oops..I meant blogs :rolleyes:) with you this afternoon here on lawnsite...when it was generally SUNNY AND 65 F outside here in the great Buckeye State....the one we both live in, right ?!?

But....ya know...I was busy 'working'....
Work...you know, the thing you have to do to sustain yourself and your families livelihood...for the future, and all ?!?

Must be nice, sitting around on your tush on a beautiful day like today in Columbus with apparently nothing to do....

Did ya play golf, maybe ?!?

Hey...maybe if you're not doing anything 'productive', ya know, like the thing I described called 'work' tomorrow (when it gets up into the mid 70's temp-wise)....maybe you can write some more little backbiting reviews critiquing all of the rest of lawnsite's pesticide forum bloggers, too !!!

:waving:

I must have hit you close to the mark. The truth hurts, doesn't it Marcos? I got quite a bit of work done yesterday actually. When I wrote that post, I was home for lunch.

Everyone here already knew that you're the most knowledgeable guy in the world when it comes to to turf-science. I never knew that you're super abilities allowed you to work without ever eating. It must be nice. Unfortunately, I do have to eat.

Oh yeah. Don't blow your engine. You're pretty close to red line right now. :waving:

Marcos
05-23-2008, 07:08 PM
I must have hit you close to the mark. The truth hurts, doesn't it Marcos? I got quite a bit of work done yesterday actually. When I wrote that post, I was home for lunch.

Everyone here already knew that you're the most knowledgeable guy in the world when it comes to to turf-science. I never knew that you're super abilities allowed you to work without ever eating. It must be nice. Unfortunately, I do have to eat.

Oh yeah. Don't blow your engine. You're pretty close to red line right now. :waving:

You can go blow something else.

Victor
05-23-2008, 08:20 PM
Thank you for proving me right Marcos. That's exactly the type of retort I'd expect from you. One of the biggest differences between a child and an adult, is the filter between their brain and their mouth. :)

Hey there Rob. I hope that new spreader is working well for you Buddy. Jerry and I were talking about you the other day. We were just wondering how that thing was working for you.

I think you misunderstood my initial post in this thread. I never said I wasn't happy with my lawns. I'm quite content with the way my lawns look. As long as the homeowner doesn't undermine my program with bad cultural practices, my program almost always yields great results.

I started this thread because I was wondering how many people had contemplated adopting TrueGreen's modus operandi. That's all.

By the way, if you need help with adjusting the helical cone on that spreader, just let me know.

turfsurfer
05-23-2008, 08:42 PM
Hey Vic,
I haven't actually bought that new spreader yet. Haven't had the time. I have some time next week but I think I'm going to take the opportunity to chase some walleye up at Lake Erie instead of chasing fert for a change. I do plan on getting it before my next round though. I can't take my current spreader any longer. Looks like you and Marcos need some counseling sessions and a group hug.

MDAutry
05-23-2008, 10:56 PM
I have a better question for you guys, what are you doing in the summer to keep the grass green and looking great withoout burning it up. Too much N and it is over... will Fe set me up for the same failure? How can I grow below the soil and still get the grass looking great on top...
Many Thanks,
Michael

ICT Bill
05-24-2008, 12:26 AM
MDAutry, Come to the dark green side

Smallaxe
05-24-2008, 08:27 AM
...

How can I grow below the soil and still get the grass looking great on top...
Many Thanks,
Michael

After this weekend - my next big project is to aerate, add compost and possibly some slow release and/or organic fertilizer w/fe.

Organic fert is slow release and non burning , but low in nutrients. If you remove a lot of clippings each week you probably need to replace a significant amount of NPK. .With the aeration now- and compost now- you will be affording your root zone some expansion ability which in turn helps the overall plant.

Building soil fertility throughout the season ensures there are plenty of nutrients for the winter. Storage of carbohydrates for normal healthy spring growth. Roots grow down finding nutrients and water as the soil surface dries.

Fertilization in the spring [right after breaking dormancy] causes roots to remain shallow and suffer from heat during the hot part of summer. [I can't speak to southern grasses on that point, but for the cool season grasses - it bears out]

k911lowe
05-24-2008, 08:34 AM
i have no complaints from my customers about the darkness of their lawns.i used to use urea pretty heavy on lawns near the gol course but even they now realizer that its not necessary for your lawn to be black to be healthy.especially since the price of urea has gone up considerably and fertilizing every other month has become too costly,even for millionaires.it is also unfriendly to the environment.

lawnguy26
05-24-2008, 01:11 PM
Lawbguy

Yep I am thinking something else for my calcareous sandy soil. Not that Fe or sulfur doesn't help. But what works for me doesn't necessarily work in your soil. Sorry I am not giving out my cocktail mix to anyone, even if it isn't right for your area.

I don't need your mix. I do just fine on my own. I was just curious. I've found extra Mg helps me keep my lawns nice and green.

Ric
05-24-2008, 01:19 PM
I don't need your mix. I do just fine on my own. I was just curious. I've found extra Mg helps me keep my lawns nice and green.

26

Besides Hydrogen, Carbon and Oxygen there are 14 other elements associated with plant growth for a total of 17. Keep listing them and maybe you will get lucky. BTW Each of the 14 come in a 100 different forms or compounds. :D