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View Full Version : Dimension and Momentum Tank Mixed?


Whitey4
05-21-2008, 09:32 PM
OK, I have a friend in Wisconsin..... she is using some "local" fert and squirt company.... after firing TG for this year. They only got around to applying last week.... and they said that the soil temps had not been 50 degrees for 3 consecutive days yet.... so they didn't apply until last week. We're talking May 14th for crabgrass controls...

When they finally did apply, it was apparently a tank mix of Dimension and Momentum, with this little tidbit left in the mailbox...

"We have applied your first annual broadleaf weed control and crabgrass control. Please avoid mowing you lawn for 24 hours. Rain will not affect this treatment unless it occurs during or immediately after our visit. Allow 14 days for results to show." His own personal written comments, "Todays treatment will prevent crabgrass germination and cause broadleaf weeds to curl and die within 14 days."

I've never heard of applying Dimension and a broad leaf at the same time, never mind the same tank mix. The "comments" about rain sound like BS to me.... how long, or rather how quickly does a liquid app of Dimension volatize? No directions to water it in? Well, I guess if you spray for broadleaved at the same time.... not to mention the soil temps had to be warm enough in Wisconsin for crabgrass germination before May 14-15....

This sort of application is something I would never do, but is it viable (and effective) to apply pre-M and broad leaf controls at the same time? In the same mix?

I told my friend what I thought about this.... and she asked me to call the applicator. Before I did, I wanted some opinions from those more experienced than I on something like this. Is Pre-M and BL mixed a competent application? TIA....

LawnNeedz
05-21-2008, 10:12 PM
I tank mix pre-emergent with weed control all the time. Escpecially when I am doing first applications on yards with a ton of broadleaf. Liquid Dimension is not affected by the rain unless it were to flood. It is pretty late in the season to be applying pre-m for crabgrass, but it is better than not getting a pre-m down. Dimension will actually kill crabgrass in very early stages of growth. Hope this helps!

Whitey4
05-21-2008, 10:12 PM
Oh, and PS: Don't have data for May, but the GDD in Madison WI on April 30th was 255......

Whitey4
05-21-2008, 10:17 PM
I tank mix pre-emergent with weed control all the time. Escpecially when I am doing first applications on yards with a ton of broadleaf. Liquid Dimension is not affected by the rain unless it were to flood. It is pretty late in the season to be applying pre-m for crabgrass, but it is better than not getting a pre-m down. Dimension will actually kill crabgrass in very early stages of growth. Hope this helps!

I wasn't too sure about Dimension and how it might volitize when not soon watered in, but as you can see, the GDD for Wisconsin was 255 on April 30.... and they waited another two weeks. Also, I have an issue with their statement that unless it rains IMMEDIATELY after the app, it won't affect BL kill. Thanks for the response. I always seperate my Pre-M and broadleaf... I use granular pre-m and spray for BL's, so I have no experience with liquid pre-m's at all.

LawnNeedz
05-21-2008, 10:26 PM
Since the dimension is already in the liquid form it does not need the water to form the barrier in the soil. Water will affect the results of the weed control. I try to spray yards that have weeds when there is going to be at least 24 hours without rain. What are you using to apply your product a PG?

Whitey4
05-21-2008, 11:05 PM
Since the dimension is already in the liquid form it does not need the water to form the barrier in the soil. Water will affect the results of the weed control. I try to spray yards that have weeds when there is going to be at least 24 hours without rain. What are you using to apply your product a PG?

I'm a solo LCO.... so not a ton of accounts and my territory is high end but small manicured properties, typically like 100X120-140, but lots of $ spent on landscaping. Usually only 2 to 4k of turf at most. I use a regular broadcast speader for granular apps and a 4 gallon backpack. For most apps, 4 gallons handles 2+ properties for typical broadcast apps. I go granular for most things except post-M stuff. Thus, my complete lack of experience using pre-M liquids..... which is why I asked.

So, this guy did things right, used good controls, but was just late on the Dimension app, right?

whoopassonthebluegrass
05-21-2008, 11:15 PM
I mix barricade and weed killer twice a year. Have essentially perfect results. As for Dimension's uv volatility, I don't know. Barricade has a 14 day window, though - so perhaps Dimension does, too...

Jason Rose
05-21-2008, 11:28 PM
Sounds pretty normal to me too. Many guys have gotten away from the "don't water for 24 hours" deal for the BL control because of too many callbacks if it rains or the sprinklers run accidently. Truthfully, if the chemical is mixed right and a surfactant is used, once it's good and dry on the plant it will usually do its job, reguardless of water/rain.

And yes, Dimension does offer some post-emergent control on crabgrass. If you want to know if it's germinated or not just LOOK. Find bare places, especially around the edges of the lawn and see if there's crab sprouting there. If not, then there's really no need to worry.

FdLLawnMan
05-21-2008, 11:33 PM
I live in Wisconsin and use Dimension in a liquid form all the time. It doesn't need to be watered in and I have not seen one speck of crabgrass germination as of today, so he was not to late to apply it. We have had a very cool spring, in fact there is a chance of frost north of me, so I think he did fine. I am using Speedzone in these cool temps as Momentum works to slow for me when it is this cold.

gorknoids
05-21-2008, 11:56 PM
We do a granular pre-emergent followed a month later by a broadleaf app to make sure that we don't have to spray the stuff which germinated right after the 2,4-d went down.
Combining them in a liquid form seems to leave the just-hatching seedlings a window of viability which wouldn't be there with split apps.

GREEN-UP
05-21-2008, 11:59 PM
I agree with everyone else. His terminology might not be correct, but he's going of a script. I have done granular DIM, along w spraying on first app. I dont know WI grass, but try using coolpower in your early BL treatments. Works well in cold temps.

Sethro
05-22-2008, 10:35 AM
Straight from a dimension label: "This product is not effective until activated by 1/2 inch or more of rainfall or irrigation." I've never applied dimension without rainfall or irrigation within a reasonable (couple days) amount of time, so I can't comment if it really won't work without being watered in.

As others have said, the tank mix is not an issue. My concern would be that the applicator thinks dimension is preventing crabgrass germination. It is preventing the emergence of the plant from the soil, not the germination of the seed.

lawnsbytim
05-22-2008, 08:34 PM
I may be old school, but I always was told that the latest to put down the pre-emergent was when the lilacs were in bloom - and in Madison, the lilacs are in full bloom.

RigglePLC
05-22-2008, 09:59 PM
Opinions vary. Take a look at the application timeing GDD site for Michigan and most of Wisconsin etc.
http://gddtracker.net/?model=2&offset=0&zip=48824

The site seems to indicate that crabgrass control is "optimum" in the upper penninsula near Lake Superior, "late" in northern Wisconsin and in Madison "Done", meaning, I think,--too late. But it lists GDD (base 50) at only 176 for Madison Wisconsin. The GDD (base 32) is 993 in Madison. On my street in Michigan crabgrass emerged at 720 GDD(base 32). Heavily infested area.

Myself, I agree with you Whitey and Badger, I would rather apply the crabgrass control a little sooner. And apply the broadleaf control a little later when clover and the summer weeds arise. 2 hours is usually enough to be safe from rain wash off.

Whitey4
05-22-2008, 11:50 PM
Opinions vary. Take a look at the application timeing GDD site for Michigan and most of Wisconsin etc.
http://gddtracker.net/?model=2&offset=0&zip=48824

The site seems to indicate that crabgrass control is "optimum" in the upper penninsula near Lake Superior, "late" in northern Wisconsin and in Madison "Done", meaning, I think,--too late. But it lists GDD (base 50) at only 176 for Madison Wisconsin. The GDD (base 32) is 993 in Madison. On my street in Michigan crabgrass emerged at 720 GDD(base 32). Heavily infested area.

Myself, I agree with you Whitey and Badger, I would rather apply the crabgrass control a little sooner. And apply the broadleaf control a little later when clover and the summer weeds arise. 2 hours is usually enough to be safe from rain wash off.


Riggs.... yeah, I got the GDD data for April from the U of Wisconsin.... and it seems late for a Dimension app to me. And riddle me this... how can any pre-M work if it isn't watered into the soil? Liquid or not? As Sethro said, the label says it must be watered in, and a 1/2" isn't likely to come from one rainstorm. Most lawn sprinklers take 45 minutes to put down a half inch.

I think combining these two apps may be economical for the applicator, but not the most efficient use of chemicals. My friend mentioned that all her neighbors using the national fert and squirt companies had gotten even their BL control app weeks before she did... and she had a ton of dandies, etc. This outfit says it will spray if any breakthrough occurs... but at least they are using quality controls.

My opinions are likely slanted, as my customers have small plots and all have regular irrigation.... maybe in other parts of the country with larger property sizes that may not be irrigated, this mix works fine..... but it isn't something I would do here on Long Island. My Pre-M is done at least two weeks before my BL app, and it gets watered in, I make sure of that. Being a small LCO with every customer within a two mile radius, I have the luxury of applying when it's best, and it doesn't interfere with production goals. That I think, is the heart of the matter.

If it works, don't fix it.... but I have to admit I am not crazy about this as a combined app, and still think these guys were late. IF they follow up with an app if there is breakthrough, fine, but I'd rather get it down earlier, avoid breakthrough, additional cost, and customer complaints.

PS: Badger disagrees with me on this one.....

ted putnam
05-23-2008, 12:10 AM
I think it depends on location, weed pressure and the like. Only my customers from the previous year have a "clean lawn". Even at that, by the time I apply my Spring pre-emerge, there are broadleafs beginning to encroach from neighbors who do nothing or breakdown of the fall pre-emerge. In my area at least, there is no way I could get away with not applying pre-emerg and broadleaf weed control at the same time. The customers wouldn't wait for the weeds to be controlled besides the fact that it would be a logistical nightmare for me. I apply both at the same time for new and old customers with excellent results!

Hogjaw
05-24-2008, 09:39 PM
Ted,

Same here.

vegomatic40
05-25-2008, 07:25 AM
I've been doing both together for over 25 years in literally dozens of different combos. As long as the label states that a pre and a post will work together, I do a jar-test and go for it. Seems absolutely goofy not to unless you are doing this as a "hobby" and not trying to bring home some bologney. Like Ted, my customers simply wouldn't wait (nor should they) or understand the difference. Besides, in the transition zone you generally have broadleaves growing and competing with turf at the time of the 1st app. Would it not makes sense to reduce the population? What is the advantage of a return trip? Burn extra fuel and increase overhead?

Runner
05-25-2008, 07:28 AM
We HAD to start spraying weeds with our pre-emergent round, as we were having alot of early weeds pop up. As far as it being too late for a pre-emergent,...I don't think it is ever too late. I remember all too well what it was like 2 years ago with all the moisture, and crabgrass just kept germinating....over and over. We could have used Dimension all season long and been better off on some accounts....
It HAS to be Dimension now, though....because that's the only practicle way to handle the new plants while still doing pre-emergent. It is either that, or be ready to invest in Drive.lol

turf hokie
05-25-2008, 10:23 AM
I know some guys that take care of schools and go with dimension and broadleaf after they let out for the summer and get great results at 1/2 gall of H20 per k.

I have used liquid dimension with great results as a post emergent and if it is very late then you can spike the mix with a cut rate of acclaim and not worry about crabgrass.

I would be out of business if I tried to do all my pre-m and then go back to do the broadleaf. Why make two trips when you can make one. Fuel is killing me as it is never mind making unnecessary trips to a house.

It's being efficient and not off label or unsound practice.

As far as timing on this particular app. I dont know about WI but we are just now seeing crabgrass along curbs and bare spots on untreated lawns. I would say it is not ideal but not inneffective. Better late than never, especially if they are guaranteeing to spray any break thru.

Be careful getting involved. If one of my customers had a "friend that was in the business" call me from Wisconsin to question my practices that customer would have already received the last service from me and a suggestion to call have him to service the lawn since he knows better than me in another part of the country.

Whitey4
05-25-2008, 10:14 PM
I've been doing both together for over 25 years in literally dozens of different combos. As long as the label states that a pre and a post will work together, I do a jar-test and go for it. Seems absolutely goofy not to unless you are doing this as a "hobby" and not trying to bring home some bologney. Like Ted, my customers simply wouldn't wait (nor should they) or understand the difference. Besides, in the transition zone you generally have broadleaves growing and competing with turf at the time of the 1st app. Would it not makes sense to reduce the population? What is the advantage of a return trip? Burn extra fuel and increase overhead?

You, and several others have a very different operation compared to mine. As I said, it's an efficiency question for many of you fert and squirt only folks. Because I am a small LCO.... I get my preM down at the right time.... and do a separate app for BL because the optimum timing for the two apps is different (here at least).... wait on the preM, get some breakthrough, spray BL too early and it means a second follow up app. Having all my few customers within a mile or so radius.... but to condescend to calling what I do a hobby.... well, I will step away from a flame war. No need to go there, some mutual respect for different opinions and different business types is lacking in your repsonse.

If it was your own lawn, and you weren't in this biz.... would you combine the apps? Or would you separate them for the best possible timing you could anticipate?

I'm not saying that the combo app is a bad thing.... if you have "been doing this for 25 years" and it works for you, I won't predispose to say it's a bad strategy. Speaking for this LI territory I am in, if I use a combo, I will either be late on the preM, or have to go back for a second BL control. So, it's two apps any way I slice it. Again, to treat all of my customers takes less than 4 hours..... they are all very nearby and all have postage stamp properties. It's obvious that most folks in this forum aeren't small LCO's such as myself.... different ball game.

greendoctor
05-26-2008, 05:05 PM
In my area, a lawn infested with weeds will get a preemergent herbicide mixed with a postemergent according to what type of emerged weeds are there. It is a common thing for me to apply Gallery with broadleaf controls or simazine and Image with MSMA. I do not have the luxury of winter. While everyone else here is curled up in front of a fireplace with a drink, I am in the midday sun spraying for weeds. BTW, because all of my lawns are on automatic irrigation, whatever I apply will be followed by 1/2" or more of irrigation within 7 days of application. If it is a preemergent treatment only, I will be activating an irrigation cycle myself.