Question for Pest Control Operators..

[rob7233]

Can someone tell me who have/are dealing with Chinch bug in St. Augustine(Floratam) if the resistance they develop to pesticides is for that entire class of chemicals or for that particular version of pesticide within that same class?

For example, rotating pesticide chemicals to reduce the incidence of developing resistance, would it be (as) effective to rotate products within the same chemical class? Or they must only be in different chemical classes (I know this gets the best results) ?

[bug-guy]

rob i'm in hernando cty and we have had resistance with bifenthrin. i worked @ a company where fmc came and vaccumed some out of our lawns and admited to the resistance.
if there is a resistance to bifenthrin then permethrin and cypermethrin will be ineffective also.
rotations would have to include sevin and dlyox as well as aloft and arena.
i'm sure there are others but check the labels for restrictions

imo

[Ric]

Can someone tell me who have/are dealing with Chinch bug in St. Augustine(Floratam) if the resistance they develop to pesticides is for that entire class of chemicals or for that particular version of pesticide within that same class?

For example, rotating pesticide chemicals to reduce the incidence of developing resistance, would it be (as) effective to rotate products within the same chemical class? Or they must only be in different chemical classes (I know this gets the best results) ?

Rob

You are answering your own question. Yes rotate chemical families.

[ArizPestWeed]

You cannot use more than what the label states of any one pesticide , however , you can use more than one pesticide in the same family , therefore , doubling the amount which may control the target .
You can even use 3 or more .
You can make several applications using different pesticides for better control.
Maybe the resistance is only at that small % of that one pesticide

[tamadrummer]

You cannot use more than what the label states of any one pesticide , however , you can use more than one pesticide in the same family , therefore , doubling the amount which may control the target .
You can even use 3 or more .
You can make several applications using different pesticides for better control.
Maybe the resistance is only at that small % of that one pesticide

Wouldn't this totally kill the budget if infact it became necessary to use more than one chemical to achieve control?

[ArizPestWeed]

Bifenthrin cost about 20 cents a gallon when mixed , so maybe you triple it to 60 cents a gallon .
To get through 1 or 2 jobs , I do not see it as a problem .

I have mixed 3 pre-emergents in one application for better control , the cost was covered ,

[tamadrummer]

Bifenthrin cost about 20 cents a gallon when mixed , so maybe you triple it to 60 cents a gallon .
To get through 1 or 2 jobs , I do not see it as a problem .

I have mixed 3 pre-emergents in one application for better control , the cost was covered ,

I should have known better but I had to ask. Of course I am only treating one yard, (My own) so the cost of using several pesticides is super high for me.

I did just put down Talstar and lambda-cyhalothrin (Triazicide) because it did not seem that the Talstar did what I needed it to with the ants this time.

I used a blend from Growers made by Howards fert. 15-0-15 with like .069 (I think) bifenthrin and it was 19.50 per 50# bag and 2.58 lbs scu this is all from memory so it could be wrong. My results from the fert are unbelievable!!!! The best I have ever had on my lawn but the ants laughed at the Talstar....:cry:

[rob7233]

Rob

You are answering your own question. Yes rotate chemical families.

I do realize that rotating out of chemical families is best but is rotating within the same chemical family work as well? Also, why is it that some of the big national chains seemed to seldom do this or at least too infrequently.

[greendoctor]

That happens especially when the big chains or more correctly, whoever is supplying all of the LCO's in town locks everyone into buying granules containing the same AI. I notice it is quite common to have fertilizer + bifenthrin, where is the Dylox or Sevin? Even Sevin and Dylox have a related mode of action, so the ideal thing to do is not to apply them next to each other. I would also be reluctant to blend insecticides, lest I develop a species that is resistant to everything legal to apply. I am not happy about Allectus or Aloft. What an easy way to create pests resistant to both pyrethroids and nicotinic insecticides. Those two chemical classes are among the few still legal to apply on a residential lawn. A big part of resistance development has to do with poor application. Insects exposed to a partial dose live and pass on the genetics of resistance.

When the Southern chinch bug came to Hawaii in the 1990's, I was new to the business and a freshman in University. But I knew enough that rotation and application was everything. Back then, I rotated between Sevin, Orthene, Tempo, Turcam(bendiocarb), diazinon and Dursban. Everything but the Sevin and Tempo is now illegal on residential turf. My application technique was to run everything through a walking boom with solid cone nozzles at 10 gallons/M and 300 PSI at the boom. I never encountered problems controlling this pest, except for one client who insisted on throwing Dursban granules monthly on the lawn in addition to whatever I was spraying. Needless to say, only Sevin, Tempo and Turcam worked on that lawn because the pests were very organophosphate tolerant. What a numbnut, he created chinch bugs that were pesticide resistant, yet he continued to spread Dursban and blame me for not controlling his pests.

[rob7233]

Thanks, GreenDoctor. After reading your post, it seems that the industry has done a lot in creating it's own problems with resistance. In addition, the homeowner that will not follow instructions or won't irrigate to get the product into the target zone. Additionally, what I've seen that's also sad is the LCO that comes and cuts the lawn soon after the liquid application.

I'm guessing it's pretty tough to try to educate the customer about BMP's & IPM. I've had some local PCO's tell me, if it doesn't stink when the customer gets home, they think you did nothing. Between the bad maintenance & cultural practices of primarily the homeowner( cutting too short/over irrigating etc.) , along with other under educated techs or services, the high or unrealistic expectations of the customer, and all the while your trying to be responsible with your apps., I'd say it's got to be real difficult to get it right... ;)

[bug-guy]

i have always thought that the resistance in chinch bugs got to the point it is at today due to low doses of bifenthrin (most commonly used chem) and the high rate of reproduction in CB's(7-10 times a yr) ...
what doesn't kill me makes, makes me stronger.

[Ric]

Ah Yes Corporate marketing.

Before Talstar was the Cure All, Dursban was the Cure all and before that Chlordane and DDT. Marketing is a wonderfully thing and can make the public believe anything if they are told the same thing over and over. Just look at Billary, she still believes she has a chance and even said Bobby Kennedy was killed in June of 1968. I guess she is hoping for a Not so resistant Obama.

[Ric]

I do realize that rotating out of chemical families is best but is rotating within the same chemical family work as well? Also, why is it that some of the big national chains seemed to seldom do this or at least too infrequently.

Rob

Rotating the same family of chemicals still has the same "mode of Action" For Example Pyrethroids like Talstar work by inhibiting Synaptic nerves from firing and cause paralysis which then causes death. Organophosphates like Dursban are clolinestesterase inhibitors that cause the nerve receptors to continue to receive impulses and cause violent twitching that causes a central nervous break down and death. Talstar is a non systemic that must be ingested while Dursban is a systemic that can be absorbed or transpired. Talstar doesn't volatilize while Dursban does and causes a fumigation effect in the turf.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Just because a pest is targeted on the label, doesn't mean that product is the best management practice or product for that pest. Knowing both the life cycles of a pest and the mode of action of pesticides helps you select the Best management practice.

[PSUTURFGEEK]

You cannot use more than what the label states of any one pesticide , however , you can use more than one pesticide in the same family , therefore , doubling the amount which may control the target .
You can even use 3 or more .
You can make several applications using different pesticides for better control.
Maybe the resistance is only at that small % of that one pesticide

I very much agree with this theory, I have always tried to follow it as much as possible, we all need to understand that at some point we will be very limited in what we can use and what actually works anymore, That's why everytime a new class of insecticide that comes out and if it works well and is somewhat in the ballpark price wise we need to use it, for example Duponts new Provaunt It's a whole new class, this is even good news for it's competitors Like FMC and china because it means thier chemicals will be able to stay around alot longer without having resistance issues. My only concern is Talstar 0-0-7 is like 22.00/acre right now, it's a real tempting profit margin.

[tamadrummer]

I very much agree with this theory, I have always tried to follow it as much as possible, we all need to understand that at some point we will be very limited in what we can use and what actually works anymore, That's why everytime a new class of insecticide that comes out and if it works well and is somewhat in the ballpark price wise we need to use it, for example Duponts new Provaunt It's a whole new class, this is even good news for it's competitors Like FMC and china because it means thier chemicals will be able to stay around alot longer without having resistance issues. My only concern is Talstar 0-0-7 is like 22.00/acre right now, it's a real tempting profit margin.

(Old thread resurection) If provaunt is is not useable for Chinch bugs, and is essentially the same as the Advion ant bait, what choices am I left with for my lawn?

I just put down Talstar EZ at the highest rate for perimiter treatment in a 10' band and then used a hand spreader for the beds, sevin has little or no residual effect and I agree with greedoctor that using the neonicotinoids and pyrethroids is probably not a great idea but there is little choice that I know of other than pyrethroids for the major pests here in FL. Chinch bugs/mole Crickets and fire ants.

I guess because I have always put down my own stuff, I just wonder what options there are in the organophosphate or neonic avenue for our pests? I would like to switch around but Talstar/Tempo SC/ and lamda-clyothrin?

[greendoctor]

Dylox is an organophosphate, not related to any of the popular lawn insecticides. Sevin is a carbamate, also not related. Both of these chemicals are subject to a reaction known as alkaline hydrolysis. Water with a high PH due to the minerals it contains will substantially degrade both the initial and residual effect. I use LI700 when spraying Dylox, Sevin or Orthene. I learned a humiliating and costly lesson about alkaline hydrolysis when spraying a 1/4 acre block of nursery plants with Orthene. The treatment did not work even though I applied the correct rate with thorough coverage. The water broke down the Orthene before it had a chance to work. I had to respray at my expense. The second time around included 1 quart of LI700 per 100 gallons of spray.

When applying Dylox or Sevin to turf, a low pressure, low volume application technique does not help the chemical work. If I am spraying a lawn for insects, it is done in at least 3 gallons/M and at least 250 PSI at the gun or boom. The idea is to force the solution into where the insects are located. Also, I do not bother spraying a dry lawn. It will be irrigated with at least 1/2" of water if it is dry before I treat it. With high application volumes, there is no need to water it in unless my target pest is grubs. If that is the case, 1/2" of water before spraying and another 1/2" as soon as the spray rig is shut off. When spraying for chinch bug, I prefer to up the application volume and not water in, so as to not overdilute the product. Notice how I do not mention granular anything. My issues with granules include poor contact with the target pests and the inability to control how deep the AI goes when water hits it. If all of this sounds expensive, I will be honest. This is not your Throw and Go application. It takes time and work on your part far beyond what you are used to. But I set my fees according to the results I get. Sure, I could be cheap and push a spreader around the lawn and drive away. I will also soon be out of business for not producing results above and beyond what people are used to seeing out of their unlicensed yard service or the Throw and Go "landscapers" who also mow lawns and haul litter for the same price or less than what I charge per month just for applications.

The local DIYers never have any problems killing anything, including people downwind of their lawn, because they are usually spraying up to 1 quart of Malathion 57EC through a hose end sprayer. By my estimation, that is applying at about 5-10 gallons/M. Very good application technique, nothing wrong with that. However, they are applying a dose intended for 1 acre and Malathion is not labeled for turf use.