Organic Pessamist

[Fred B]

This post if for all you commercial LCO's.

I think in today's society it is just a matter of time where spraying for dandelions and other broadleaf weeds for cosmetic reasons will be outlawed.

Do you honestly think that organic methods can be used commercially and still be reasonably cost effective? Or do you think people will have to look at dandelions in a different perspective? Or will they have to put there money where their mouths are if they want to go "green"

I know some will say Corn Gluten. But this is expensive and has to be put down at very specific times and is also rain sensitive. I mow 400 acres per week and @ 20 pounds per 1000 square feet that is alot of meal.

Over seeding @ $124 per 50 kilo bag of grass seed is also very expensive plus labor to put it down.


The reason I say commercial is because we do shopping centres, business parks, Schools... ALot of times there is irrigation but it is limited or cannot be on city property that the mall owners are responsible for.

What about the city land beside you that is covered with dandelions or thistle can organic practices be effective when that is beside you?

We are certified pesticide applicators but only do our own commercial accounts. I got a quote from a company to do some organic weed control here are the figures that they quoted.

Spring spaying of liquid corn gluten $2700
Summer spraying of beet extract $2700
Fall spraying of beet extract $2700
Total $8100

This was for 4.3 acres and all three spraying must be completed to maintain a 75% effective weed control compared to conventional spraying.

Same area same company for conventional spraying was one application @ $728.

I know that organic methods can be effective residential lawns just because I feel there can be more control and you also have an owner who will be more involved if they want organic.

My question for you is " Do you think going organic is realistic commercially? Or are the Costs going to be so high that there are going to be weeds every where?

[DuallyVette]

I think organic generally contains 50%+ dishonesty. BS to the customer, then slip in something that works. To some operators that I've spoken to, it seems like a religion, they're emotionally committed. But you really have to BELIEVE, or you won't notice how poor the results are.

[Smallaxe]

That is why I brought out the 'dandelion' thread again. There is nothing so far that does broadleaf kill and leaves the grass. If we let our gov't outlaw broadleaf sprays lawns will change into weed patches, if not properly established to out compete.

I BELIEVE... is a funny statement because we do all see that religious tree hugging mentality all the time. We had 3 tree guys come out on a large project and 1 actually explained why it would take him 5 years to dead limb red pine 15 feet up. "Every cut is a wound!" On dead limbs!!! He thot he was 'educating' the client.
Religion or science?

He failed the audition. :laugh:

[DeepGreenLawn]

The idea is get a truly healthy thick lawn. I know "we" always say that but it really does work, I didnt put a pre-m of any sort on my neighbors or mine this year and she had 3 weeds in her front yard. Two were grassy. It really works, mine had just a few patches of annual bluegrass and once I got that pulled it hasnt been back. Again, no pre-m whatsoever. And my lawn is truly the best looking lawn in the neighborhood, my other neighbors yard is a DEEP green but... you can tell he is struggling to keep up with the cutting, and it just doesn't look healthy. I have one other customer that is about 9000 sq ft, and I was able to hand pull the few pigweed i found in the thinner but still thick areas.

It works, just takes time, and a different way of looking at things. With bermuda I can take an ok lawn and have it organic in a max of two years. I am a hybrid company and I do use weed killers and pre-ms but only when ABSOLUTELY necessary.

[wallzwallz]

DuallyVette, 50% + dishonest for organics? If someone would put down chemicals on a sold organic program, just to get results, then they know nothing about a real organic program. These would be the same guys that do ghost apps on their customers too.I do 100% Organic for those who want it, and yes cost are more initially but will level off after a couple years. Right now my organic lawns are greener than my chem lawns and about half of the top growth= easier mowing.

[DeepGreenLawn]

just to clarify, I only use traditional chems for weed control, not to get a quick greening.

[Elden]

[QUOTE=Smallaxe;2340965] lawns will change into weed patches, if not properly established to out compete.[QUOTE]


I think this is the bottom line. If you start building a house on a jacked up foundation, by the time the roof is on and the first wind blows down it comes.
You can invest the money up front to have it done right, or you can nickle and dime it going in then have to pay for it in the long run.

[PSUTURFGEEK]

All of the organic companies who are only selling organic lawncare programs to thier customers, are you letting them know that it may take ten years to actually make any change in the soil itself??

[DeepGreenLawn]

You don't have to have a perfect soil to be organic. By the way... how long will it take to fix the soil with traditional products? Even if it did take 10 years with straight organic that's better than making the soil worse. If I can have a lawn that requires zero inputs in 10 years then I would be happy. My lawn is doing pretty good right now and I have only had it for 2 years.

[treegal1]

50 % dishonest??? "{expletive deleted" how dare you, every Wednesday nite we open up our shop to EVERYONE. we also have a very long start up package with all the info on what why where and when. we use almost no pre packaged materials, and the ones we use are natural and organic. why don't you buy a plane ticket and fly down here to see a real organic operation that has won awards for the way our yards look!!!!!! that and i can help you pull your head.......

we are not small buy any means 350 + acres full service, and we hug trees to, with a forestry degree 2 certified arborist a botany degree combined with almost 75 years combined experience in my current staff. we even have an entomologist on tap!!!!

want some icing!! we compost all indoors and run on bio fuels. our worm farm is able to consume almost 35 tons per month, and we are able to make or own charcoal, for a carbon negative yard.

WE GET NO BREAKS HERE EITHER, 28+ CUTS PER YEAR, ANDS THE LAST TIME IT SNOWED WAS 1977, THE LAST FREEZE WAS 1984. and please show me one northern tree that is almost an acre wide and 80 feet tall with a trunk 10 feet across= dbh 35 feet. that is only 40 years old. we have to cut lawns and hedges at Xmas.

please don't smear the real organist or someone that has a hybrid and is honest enough to call it what it is, a less input yard.we have worked long and hard to get to where we are at.

when you get some proper learning then you will understand the way we are able to kill you guys with an organic program. waste =$$$$$ in my book. look through my old posts, book you flight,pay me( pis me off and pay, every one else is free) then you can start your own program. till then, keep my name out your mouth, and we can keep it the same!

I'm back

[JDUtah]

50 % dishonest??? "{expletive deleted" how dare you, every Wednesday nite we open up our shop to EVERYONE. we also have a very long start up package with all the info on what why where and when. we use almost no pre packaged materials, and the ones we use are natural and organic. why don't you buy a plane ticket and fly down here to see a real organic operation that has won awards for the way our yards look!!!!!! that and i can help you pull your head.......

we are not small buy any means 350 + acres full service, and we hug trees to, with a forestry degree 2 certified arborist a botany degree combined with almost 75 years combined experience in my current staff. we even have an entomologist on tap!!!!

want some icing!! we compost all indoors and run on bio fuels. our worm farm is able to consume almost 35 tons per month, and we are able to make or own charcoal, for a carbon negative yard.

WE GET NO BREAKS HERE EITHER, 28+ CUTS PER YEAR, ANDS THE LAST TIME IT SNOWED WAS 1977, THE LAST FREEZE WAS 1984. and please show me one northern tree that is almost an acre wide and 80 feet tall with a trunk 10 feet across= dbh 35 feet. that is only 40 years old. we have to cut lawns and hedges at Xmas.

please don't smear the real organist or someone that has a hybrid and is honest enough to call it what it is, a less input yard.we have worked long and hard to get to where we are at.

when you get some proper learning then you will understand the way we are able to kill you guys with an organic program. waste =$$$$$ in my book. look through my old posts, book you flight,pay me( pis me off and pay, every one else is free) then you can start your own program. till then, keep my name out your mouth, and we can keep it the same!

I'm back


:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping: :clapping:

[Fred B]

Treegal

Are you doing commercial properties or home owners? as there is quite a difference, Home owners who want to go organic generaly care about there property and are willing to put a little more time into it and also have a little more control over things such as watering. Where commercial they tend to look at the bottom dollar a little bit more.

[treegal1]

we do it all res, com, ag. whats it to you, we are all liars???

[Smallaxe]

[QUOTE=Smallaxe;2340965] lawns will change into weed patches, if not properly established to out compete.[QUOTE]


I think this is the bottom line. If you start building a house on a jacked up foundation, by the time the roof is on and the first wind blows down it comes.
You can invest the money up front to have it done right, or you can nickle and dime it going in then have to pay for it in the long run.

Elden, What would you do, walking onto a new job that is poorly managed, full of weeds, thin grass and no irrigation?
[They have outlawed herbicide] What will you promise the client about the weeds and what is the time frame within which you will accomplish it?

[Smallaxe]

treegal1, you have a couple of aborists degrees, perhaps you would tell me if - cutting off a dead, decaying branch is a "WOUND" to the tree. :) thanks

[Tim Wilson]

we do it all res, com, ag. whats it to you, we are all liars???

Hey Treegal,

I loved your tirade, however take it easy on Fred; he was not the one to make the dishonesty statement. I believe he is looking for answers. I'm saving for my plane ticket!

Switching to organics where chemicals have been employed is challenging. First of all, many developments have been carved out of something resembling a gravel pit, the lawn areas levelled with pit run and if lucky an inch of topsoil applied and or sand. Then the turf is rolled out. Presto! instant lawn. In this type of scenario I wonder why they did not just use gravel topping and I'm at a loss as to how to bring it around outside of tons of top dressing of compost to build up the soil.

Where one has soil under the grass to work with, I would take it on first with lots of microbial liquid amendments (EM, ICT, compost tea, etc) and apply some diluted molasses and diluted fish hydrolysate (good quality like Organic Gem; not emulsion). This will build up the bacterial and fungal population which will consume the residual chemicals. When there is a chemical spill they often apply diluted molasses to stimulate the microbes which digest this stuff. Everything I've mentioned so far outside of top dressing compost is cheap. I could do this to my 40 acres for the $8100 you had quoted.

I have mentioned the concept of integrating mushrooms into lawns on this site several times. There are some strains of edible mushrooms which apparently do well with lawns/grass and the advantage is that they continuously deliver nutrients to the grass. People just need to love seeing mushrooms in their lawns (and eating them). Check out www.fungi.com

What we did for thistle and other weeds on our hayfield which is like a giant lawn is burn or pull the weeds and sprinkle and scratch in seed on the patch. We used red clover but one could use grass seed. Burning is obviously less labor intensive than pulling. It was quite effective.

As for the lot next door full of weeds, if they propagate by seed don't have any bare patches for them to take. If they spread by root, try a barrier.

I think two years is a reasonable period to expect to transist from chemical to organic, assuming there is soil.

Salutations,
Tim

[LawnBrother]

I would love to be 100% organic, but around here the market just isn't there. Maybe a super small niche, but regular people just won't pay for it.

[DeepGreenLawn]

LOL, I love it,

I have been wandering how big you really were and what all you did yourself. I have a question though, is the maintenance worth it? That seems like a lot of work for a little money, that's what I found when I was doing it. I'd like to hear your input. Right now I am focusing on the "chemicals," treatments, whatever you want to call it, and thinking about adding the maintenance later on.

I thought you might like that post.

lawnbrother, I use to think the same thing that is why I started with traditional and organic programs. I thought the traditional would be the majority of my work and it is just the opposite. I still offer both but I really push the organics. My programs for organics are a little more expensive but you have to show them the benifits and the price in the long run. When you look at my programs typically after about 2 years the organics drop to about the same, maybe just a few dollars more a year as traditional. Not including the added services. And then I will try and drop it more and more as we go to hopefully become and low to no input lawn and they can refer me to the whole world! Plus they can use me for consultation.

[DeepGreenLawn]

Tim, I have found that you are right on with your time, I can take a bermuda lawn and have it completely organic in about 2 years, sometimes one. I took mine to organic in one season. Started with pre-ms in the spring and left them out in the fall. I pushed it a little and had some weeds but for the most part it was pretty clean. I have yet to put any ferts down this year and the lawn is one of the greenest in the neighborhood other than the guy across the street who POURED the N on and used roundup to control his weeds. My lawn is a little barer than I like but by the end of the year it should be perfecto.

I must admit, I have a great looking yard, AND ITS ORGANIC. Who would have thought.

[treegal1]

my tirade was only directed at the one that needed it, not Fred or any one in particular, just had to get it out.

how old is the chem way 100 years??? what where humans doing before chems, starving???? no plants???

and 2 years sounds correct, after that we are using less and less

[Organic a go go]

Do I tell my customers that organics is a process?? Sure I do. Do I tell them that quicker results cost more in labor?? You bet. Do I tell that that it might take ten years to improve their soil? No, cause that's a load of BS and I deal with lots of new construction with sod rolled out severely compacted soil.

[LawnBrother]

Maybe I have been looking at it wrong. I have tried to sell my existing customers and also advertized for organic lawn care and only a few bit. I guess if I armed myself with the right data I should be able to sell it. I don't apply any chemicals at all and I feel like I am leaving a ton of money on the table, but I can't see myself using anything but organics. Glad to see people are doing it right and making money! Maybe the market is bigger than I think...

[treegal1]

let me anser a couple of questions

Axe we think of a wound as something that will heal, CODIT compartmentalization of decay in trees. and how long does it take to dead wood a tree, as long as the check does to clear.LoL

DGL is maintenance worth it, well cutting grass sucks, keeping 300+ people so that there is never a need to call some one else, priceless.

fred, be glad that Tim stuck up for ya.LOL to answer your question about commercial, yes they see the dark green side clearly, no waste expense with me, no chem expense, tax credits, some are even going for carbon credits,native low input scape's with maintenance packages built in,lower water requirements(south Florida water management makes you pay by the gallon) smaller wells that are ether exempt or less cost to maintain. did that say it more clearly.

Geek 10 years??? how long does it take to spread $h*t. i hope that your customers are not paying your wages hourly. lets talk hydroponics sterile media, does it take 10 years to get that going????

[DeepGreenLawn]

I heard that, I plan on doing maintenance once I get the treatments down. Then I will add on to it. Figured I would get what I have now running right before I pile a lot of other stuff on top.

[treegal1]

DGL, don't forget how we do the mowing, we have a contract sister co. that does it. they keep what they kill, so to speak, they earn good and leave me alone. one of my most trusted employs ever said one day " i want to do more $" so i set him up, and now he makes more and runs his own life. he gets me my chip for the paper work and the name and repays what the "tools" cost.

[DeepGreenLawn]

AHHH, I have the same system worked up kind of, it is still in the process. We need to talk... some more :D

[Fred B]

I gues Treegal proves there are fanactics on both sides.

I was hoping for some real examples. I gave one to show you the difference between organic control and conventional control on a quote that I received. I don't need to know about carbon credits. We mow lawns and alot of them in one week. I would prefer not to use chemicals as anything that ends in "cide" is not good for you But I know that without a doubt the weeds will be dead.. I know you can do soil tests,... but in alot of commercial contracts we have to work with what we've got. With fuel, labor and other costs going up I need real figures or examples. I could just imagine the complaints from store owners in some of the malls that we mow if we laid down a coup[le of thousand pound of corn gluten and had cutomers tracking it in their stores.

[Smallaxe]

I think organic generally contains 50%+ dishonesty. BS to the customer, then slip in something that works. To some operators that I've spoken to, it seems like a religion, they're emotionally committed. But you really have to BELIEVE, or you won't notice how poor the results are.

Just about a month ago we had someone trying to convince thw forum that 'adequate' calcium levels in the soil would 'stop' dandelions.

50% useful info? - or - dishonesty?

The credability of organics is challenged everytime u turn around. The question is : How do we respond?????

[DeepGreenLawn]

for weeds you can use a torch, they are talked a lot on here and you can track down more info on that, as far as organic pre-m you got CGM and Calvacade, don't know much about that. Other than that, get the lawn nice and thick and the weeds will stay out on their own, or to a point that they can be managed by hand pulling, it really doesn't take that long. There are organic nonselective weed killers all over, so that can be used in beds. The main thing is to let the customer know, in your case, that traditional chems are outlawed and the process that will be replacing them will take longer but can be just as effective. If you have a good healthy lawn already then you should not have too much of a problem transitioning from one to another. Just get that soil going.

The idea of the credits, etc. is that they effect the bottom line for the businesses. It saves them money. I don't know if I came any where close to answering your question but hey, it sounded good.

[JDUtah]

but in alot of commercial contracts we have to work with what we've got. With fuel, labor and other costs going up I need real figures or examples.

The more chemical fertilizers you use the higher you help drive fuel costs.

The longer you take to use bio-fuels in your vehicles the higher you drive fuel costs.

Chemical fertilizers generally cause overgrowth which adds to labor costs.

If you dump your clippings and/or yard waste at a dump station that does not compost and needs to haul them out you are adding to fuel costs. If they have the landfill right there you are helping to fill it up pre-maturely.

Paying to have someone else take your waste rather than sell it back to the customer adds to other costs.

I'm not organic yet but have a deep desire to switch that way. I am converting a few lawns now and learning enough to know what I am talking about out there. Not to mention my partner started out working for Scotts Lawn care, so some persuasion to do there yet. :) Innovation is what drives business. Organics seem like an innovative and ultimately cost effective thing to do.

Customers more then ever are "green" conscious and the market is ever growing. I want in it.

[PSUTURFGEEK]

shrubgirl, keep me out of your'e bitching sessions, your'e tirades are pathetic.
Spend a little time worrying about your'e own customers not mine, I was making a point and If you don't believe it or the research that backs it up then your'e alot less learned in this business than I first believed.

[JDUtah]

shrubgirl, keep me out of your'e bitching sessions, your'e tirades are pathetic.
Spend a little time worrying about your'e own customers not mine, I was making a point and If you don't believe it or the research that backs it up then your'e alot less learned in this business than I first believed.

Excuse you :nono:

Usually only those who know they are principally beaten resort to character attacks.

[PSUTURFGEEK]

on top of that i'll get some really good university and comm organic lawncare studies over a 7 year span together including all products and plots and then tell me i have no right to my opinion.

[PSUTURFGEEK]

Excuse you :nono:

Usually only those who know they are principally beaten resort to character attacks.

show me an attack

[DeepGreenLawn]

YEAH BABY! More and more people talk about going green. Just think, everytime someone mentions "going green" thats you baby! Free advertisement. You got to get your name out there though, one day this idea is going to explode, and I want to be on top in my area. I am advertising like no one else. And I have just begun. My plans are sponsoring family days and charity events, etc.

First I plan on sponsoring a Friday night pool party at a local HUGE neighborhood. $450 pays for the DJ and then I am free to do whatever I want for the whole night. Not bad considering the pool is literally right at 2 acres. I think that might be money well spent, and the people actually get to meet you, not just see another add in a magazine.

Now that is the kind of advertisement I like, Face to Face. Got to get personal with these people but in a way that they will actually listen to what you have to say and not ignore/slam a door in your face.

I LOVE THIS!

$$$$$$$ YEAH BABY! Time to get EXCITED! We are doing something good and getting paid for it! WOO HOO!

[DeepGreenLawn]

well I guess I was a little delayed in my response.

[PSUTURFGEEK]

This site is here for us all to help one another and our customers, not to bash eachothers data, or call eachother Geek or shrubgirl, just had to come back with something, I only made my original comment based on watching alot of different companies over the years abuse the term organic for thier own gain, only to put up smoke and mirrors in front of thier customers and pull at thier pockets, not every organic company does this.

[Fred B]

JDUtah,

Biodiesel is not what it is cracked up to be We acualy have a manufacturer up here who will admit as of right now it costs 15% more to make biodiesel over regular diesel and you cannot use biodiesel up here in the winter. Now they are trying to improve that. We do mulch our lawn clippings here and what we do not use we have a compost pile and recycle. I have read thabout the torch. But that is not practical nor is hand picking dandellions as I said before we mow 400+ acres of lawn every week plus look after the gaardens in there as well. This is why I am trying to find an alternitive to chemicals as the writing is on the wall as far as herbacides anyway.

[Smallaxe]

There are a lot of things to do for getting the word out.

Delivering weed-free lawns [with a flamethrower or whatever] is the bottom line.

I would like a sensible answer as to why 'organics' has credabilty in the face of sceptics. I've seen it all b4 and I am seeing it again.

As the original post was discussing; What happens when the gov't pulls the plug on herbicides? CGM? NO. Flamethrower this spring in the Midwest? NO. Pull by hand in compacted clayloam soils? NO.

Talk reality - not - religion , please.

The complaint is legitimate. Don't become indignant, parroting a bunch of political platitudes about the Great Goddess Diana.

Leaving a bunch of rotting, stinking leaves in an otherwise vibrant, clean spring fed lake - because Diana [Mother Earth] put them there... really earrrrrr -i - taaaaaaates me.

[treegal1]

ok then school a shrub here, lets see this study, i genuinely want to learn more, while your at it whats the difference between trees and shrubs??? hit me with it, i want it all. show me how and then maybe i can make it better or worse. the point there is get it out there, if your way is the way, I'm into it. i will farm like a jungle dweller if that's what it takes.

[treegal1]

and just for the record, we think the leaves in the lake were put there buy mother earth to be harvested by us for fertilizer!!!!! not just abandoned or removed to make land fills. i have never said that a natural creature like us should not benefit from those leaves. we can us them to the benefit of the lake and our gardens or our self's,reasonably. not just think of them as pollution, i hope??

[PSUTURFGEEK]

As far as the difference, I hope all of us in this business know the difference, if not please get out now b4 you screw up anything else, I usually go by the old school method 9 inch circum/ 4.5 Breast height, One distinct trunk and so on, it really doesn't matter cause most people who say they are tree experts should actually be handing out happy face stickers at Wal-mart, on to the other part of the discussion I will go into some saved info and pull everything I can on products and studies.

[treegal1]

aah the products......ok then. how about Ficus benjamina, we are here debating, tree or shrub, before we go hand out stickers:laugh:

i guess it all depends how you slice it......

[treegal1]

is this a distinct trunk or a really large shrub. at breast height there is 20 plus leaders, and it seems like multiple trunks

[Smallaxe]

and just for the record, we think the leaves in the lake were put there buy mother earth to be harvested by us for fertilizer!!!!! not just abandoned or removed to make land fills. i have never said that a natural creature like us should not benefit from those leaves. we can us them to the benefit of the lake and our gardens or our self's,reasonably. not just think of them as pollution, i hope??

Thank you :)

[JDUtah]

JDUtah,

Biodiesel is not what it is cracked up to be We acualy have a manufacturer up here who will admit as of right now it costs 15% more to make biodiesel over regular diesel and you cannot use biodiesel up here in the winter. Now they are trying to improve that. We do mulch our lawn clippings here and what we do not use we have a compost pile and recycle. I have read thabout the torch. But that is not practical nor is hand picking dandellions as I said before we mow 400+ acres of lawn every week plus look after the gaardens in there as well. This is why I am trying to find an alternitive to chemicals as the writing is on the wall as far as herbacides anyway.

Maybe I called it the wrong thing... The filtered but unaltered used veggie oil that can be used in deisel engins is what I was referring to.

And personally as far as cars go, I am all about the hydrogen fuel cell. If I could get a Honda FCX Clarity out here I would. The whole idea of a no emissions car, and your HOME station to produce hydrogen fuel that also heats your water, also heats your house, and also creates electricity for your house is freaking awesome! Search yoututbe for FCX Clarity.

Anyways my point was innovation can get you there, eventually. Edison took 10,000 tries. But I guess I missed that that is what you are doing. Asking and looking for innovative solutions. My bad. I guess my input now would be to keep looking, thinking, guessing, and trying different things. As will I. :drinkup:

[ICT Bill]

A picture is worth a thousand words and points out clearly that we all have different experiences, different climates and different weed/lawn care pressures.

This discussion has basically been done for 25 years with the same result, lots of testesterone and no answers. The issue with this disccussion is it is so general that no one can give an answer that would satisfy anyone, if you get specific with your questions a general answer will ensue, maybe !!

The fact is that these guys have been doing organic lawn and land care for over 25 years, I have seen example after example of pristine lawns that have not had fertilizers or weed killers on them for over 15 years. Check these guys out http://www.organiclandcare.net/ and download the "standards for organic land care"

The properties have much less disease and when there is it is simple to discourage. These properties have much less need for water as the roots reach deep into the soil, the weed pressures are small because the stand of turf is so thick anything else is outcompeted. These are facts, the overall health of the property is much better using certain practices.

Are these organic practices?
Water deeply and less frequently. Consult with the irrgation Co. and change the settings
Mow high, depending on the type of grass mow it as high as possible et al Fescue 3+ inches
Leave the clippings
never cut more than a third of the plant off
Use sharpe blades to discourage fungal disease
Mulch beds
Core aerate an overseed for 3 Falls in a row
Use seed that is appropriate for the climate you are in, there are some great new seeds out there
Use soil amendments and bio-stimulants
whenever possible amend soil to 5 to 7% SOM before laying sod
On new properties, soil test each spring for 2 years minimum, preferred bio-assays
Use Mycorrhizae or biological sprays/granulars on new seed

With these practices you can reduce inputs by 50% at least, then you can use less fertilizer and pesticides. Less inputs means a better bottom line for you and your customer

ORGANIC who knows, SMARTER, absolutely

[Tim Wilson]

I gues Treegal proves there are fanactics on both sides.

I was hoping for some real examples. I gave one to show you the difference between organic control and conventional control on a quote that I received. I don't need to know about carbon credits. We mow lawns and alot of them in one week. I would prefer not to use chemicals as anything that ends in "cide" is not good for you But I know that without a doubt the weeds will be dead.. I know you can do soil tests,... but in alot of commercial contracts we have to work with what we've got. With fuel, labor and other costs going up I need real figures or examples. I could just imagine the complaints from store owners in some of the malls that we mow if we laid down a coup[le of thousand pound of corn gluten and had cutomers tracking it in their stores.

I believe I did give you something real to work with and certainly so has Bill. You can either, really research the process and start somewhere or just keep posting short questions on forums. You are in Calgary(?) where you can certainly find lots of free material to compost. True organics is cheap, not expensive, especially when balanced over several years. Who says you need to use corn gluten?

Tim

[DeepGreenLawn]

Hey Tim,

I have heard and read enough of your posts to know you are respectable and know your stuff. I am one who is more or less up against the fence. As I am sure you know I am an organic-based, hybrid company. I am the majority of organic but enough traditional that I can reach over the fence and grab a select few products that I need. I know I have A LOT to learn, and so does everyone else, but it is just really hard to drop the whole pre-m/2-4d, idea. I still don't understand how you can take lawn slap full of weeds and have it under control without synthetic herbicides. I know there is a major learning curve and I am still enrolled in SCA, Synthetic Chemicals Anonymous, trying to break my addiction. Please be patient with us and help us along the way. How do you take a crappy lawn and turn it nice while keeping the customer happy?

I just had my first organic only customer, the front that is, call me complaining about weeds in her yard yesterday. There is a story behind it but it's pretty long. So I arrive and find a few weeds in the back yard that is nothing but dirt, what do you expect right? The front, bermuda, is beautiful though. Pulled about 5 weeds in about 6000 sq ft. No pre-m no 2-4d at all this year. I love going their. She had some weeds that her kids hand pulled in some thinner areas on the side but that was it. The fact that I called her from her driveway the same day she complained to diagnose the problem was enough for her to be ecstatic. I could have told her that there was nothing I could do and charged her a BUTT load of money to do a lot of nothing and she still would have been happy due to the impeccable customer service. Maybe that is how you keep your customers happy through organics. I don't know, I am still learning.

And then again, there are those who don't want to learn and just be a pain.

[treegal1]

sounds like that customer wants to see a 10$ hour weed man in her yard.

[treegal1]

or your maintenance side of things needs to help out with the program. see if they can get the account and help you support them and you......or some thing like that.....just an after thought????

[DeepGreenLawn]

is that how you do that? Just put a guy out there at $10 an hour to hand pull weeds? Doesn't your customer ask for you to just spray them instead? Or are these organic fanatics like us who doesn't want to use chems other than an absolute last resort?

[ICT Bill]

I believe the local day labor source is readily available in TG's area. I know around here they line up every morning and hope someone picks them up for the day. I don't believe that they care what they are doing just as long as there is cash at the end of the day. $7 an hour is very typical up here for day labor. I have now personal knowledge just buddies in the lawn business. The only hassle is picking up and dropping off.

[DeepGreenLawn]

I got a ton down the street but... how do you charge the customer for that?

[ICT Bill]

By the hour
Tell your customer what you charge, maybe $12 and hour and say "Hey Mrs so and so, it looks like about 2 hours work, should cost about $25 I'll drop someone off tomorrow or I can spray a post-m at $7 per 1000, NOT !

[DeepGreenLawn]

Ehh, thats to simple of an answer, your suppose to make it complex so I don't look like an idiot for asking such an obvious question.

[treegal1]

Bill got it, we have labor like mice here 10$ get a car and a body.....one mag sing and a t shirt,,,,,,, the customer does not ask, if they do.... lets just say heads will roll, pink slips will fly, and fire will come down on my staff. how do i charge..... its simple one monthly charge does it all, these folks pay for an appearance. not a service. if it does not look good then.. you know....that fire and ...any ways we are selling a look. start up can be real costly 10$ per sqft in some cases, after that we have a maintenance agreement that does from pressure cleaning drives to cutting the trees,mowing, ants, hail, hurricane's, total package. and yes there's commercial accounts that get the works to, those are the easy sells. one guy in 04 had a "mall". day after the hurricanes we got the call" say how is the weather and the property" from NY NY and replied " great the street sweeper just finished". end of call!!!! the check has never been late and 2 years we have not gotten a single call.thats a happy customer, in my book.

[DeepGreenLawn]

so basically you sub out the work and send them the bill? $10 a sq ft? An average lawn here is about 5k, thats $50,000! People can't pay that kind of money without being millionairs. But maybe I am hearing that wrong and it should be broken down over time. Otherwise, SHOW ME THE MONEY!

[treegal1]

the 10 $ figure is not the norm, we have had to landscape yards and the final cost after every thing was around 9$ and change on a 30000 square lot. some others are cents per foot, just depends on the people and the yard, and the expected results!!!

[ICT Bill]

Lets not declare Big Brown the winner of the triple crown just yet!!!
I'm hoping

and getting $10/sq ft is not the norm and I believe it is a little out of context, what you do and others do is what they do

Is there profit, yes. That is how our society works in order to continue a business and expand. You make it when you can and make enough to pay the bills when you can

[treegal1]

that was a hard yard to do, we had too do drainage add fill dirt to grade. then we started bringing trees in to this yard, some came by boat and some came by truck. after that we had to put in a irrigation system and well. salt tolerant plants, drive way that was custom pavers with recycled glass in the pavers, lighting and sound system. a stone wall and many others including a pond that was close to 3000 gallons, transplant mangroves for the dock.
this was no little undertaking

[ICT Bill]

TG, If you get into fish ponds (especially Koi) email, fax, call, text, morse code me. I have a small amount of knowledge that may be helpful

[DeepGreenLawn]

why do you get all the fun jobs? And how the %)*& did you learn how to do all of this?

[ICT Bill]

mind open :)

[ICT Bill]

Fun is a state of mind


color me fun

:cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2:

[Smallaxe]

...
This discussion has basically been done for 25 years with the same result, lots of testesterone and no answers. The issue with this disccussion is it is so general that no one can give an answer that would satisfy anyone, if you get specific with your questions a general answer will ensue, maybe !!
...

With these practices you can reduce inputs by 50% at least, then you can use less fertilizer and pesticides. Less inputs means a better bottom line for you and your customer

ORGANIC who knows, SMARTER, absolutely

Longer than 25 years actually. It started almost immediately when this new-famgled fertilizer thing first was introduced.

The organic practices that everyone is trying to learn about: - is what was done b4 the fertilizer became affordable to farmers for "acres" of crop that yeilded minimal dollars in return.

What I had hope would have changed over the last century is that we had come up with something better or a better method of delivery.

Glysophate on corn fields loaded with synthetic ferts so that we have CGM for pre-m does not make sense.

Testosterone and no answer to general questions? I don't think so
... A specific question that critics have all the time and are never answered has been asked right here several times.

Pulling weeds in the midwestern soils and climates is not what I would pass on to some laborer to do. I have weeds that occasionally appear in my properly prepared organic garden that are a real challenge to pull - root and all. I pull weeds myself in these old trodden down lawns and getting the root w/out ripping up sod is virtually impossible.

No way these unskilled weed pullers should be on my clients property. Up here the work ethic is from the year 2008.

2 legit 2 quit...

[DeepGreenLawn]

you do have a good point, these guys don't care about what they are doing, they will just rip the plant side ways and not get any roots, it's quicker. It is hard for me to stop thinking everyone will do as good a job as I would.

[Smallaxe]

How do u pull a patch of white clover? or creeping charlie?

[Smallaxe]

We actually do have a ban on herbicides here. 20 ft. from the water's edge and the clover is generally just left there.

Oh, and it did not establish because of a lack of N. Overfertilization is the norm.

A practical cost effective way of getting rid of it would be appreciated.

[treegal1]

we find just the opposite, these guys are willing to do a better job than anyone, and they have been doing the Ag thing for a long time. there are some that are just looking for work and others that are really into doing lawns and landscape. you just have to interview them for a minute, in Spanish.

[Smallaxe]

U R lucky that way. Work ethic for self-esteemed, gov't conditioned youngsters that have "grown up" - to be more self indulgent and lazy - is what we have to work with here. They whine about losing jobs to foreignors too.

Is that all still ok to say??? It may sound judgemental and mean spiritted but really it is just an observation. :laugh:

[treegal1]

no you can still say it, the bush administration has not whip-ed there butts on the first yet? they might get to it tomorrow.

and yes we have 2 white guys one i married and an old drunk with one arm. after that we have a couple Jamaicans that are foremen and a Hispanic mix, Mexico Chile Peru Guatemalan Honduras.

[DeepGreenLawn]

ahh the whole learn spanish deal, I got to do that one of these days, are you not concerned about how your customers feel about all the hispanics? I would hate to hire a company and then have people I can't talk to crawling all over my yard. They do something wrong or I want to ask something to be done differently and they just look at you.

I try to look at things from the viewpiont of my customers. I am sure I go to the extreme on somethings but I feel it cuts down on the problems in the long run. That is why my main concern is keeping good customer service no matter how big my company gets. Customer service is going to be on the top of the list under a microscope. That to me is the key.

[Tim Wilson]

Hey Tim,

I have heard and read enough of your posts to know you are respectable and know your stuff. I am one who is more or less up against the fence. As I am sure you know I am an organic-based, hybrid company. I am the majority of organic but enough traditional that I can reach over the fence and grab a select few products that I need. I know I have A LOT to learn, and so does everyone else, but it is just really hard to drop the whole pre-m/2-4d, idea. I still don't understand how you can take lawn slap full of weeds and have it under control without synthetic herbicides. I know there is a major learning curve and I am still enrolled in SCA, Synthetic Chemicals Anonymous, trying to break my addiction. Please be patient with us and help us along the way. How do you take a crappy lawn and turn it nice while keeping the customer happy?

I just had my first organic only customer, the front that is, call me complaining about weeds in her yard yesterday. There is a story behind it but it's pretty long. So I arrive and find a few weeds in the back yard that is nothing but dirt, what do you expect right? The front, bermuda, is beautiful though. Pulled about 5 weeds in about 6000 sq ft. No pre-m no 2-4d at all this year. I love going their. She had some weeds that her kids hand pulled in some thinner areas on the side but that was it. The fact that I called her from her driveway the same day she complained to diagnose the problem was enough for her to be ecstatic. I could have told her that there was nothing I could do and charged her a BUTT load of money to do a lot of nothing and she still would have been happy due to the impeccable customer service. Maybe that is how you keep your customers happy through organics. I don't know, I am still learning.

And then again, there are those who don't want to learn and just be a pain.

Hey Deepgreen,

I certainly appreciate your comments but I need to reiterate that I'm not really an expert on lawns. My interest and research is more in microbial based organics which of course interfaces with landscaping and lawn care. I'm more of a details person; like what may work to transist soil which has been polluted with chemicals over to a healthy microbial population. As far as control of weeds goes, unfortunately, I think they enjoy healthy soil as much as grass does so it appears that the best way to reduce/eliminate them is to remove their foot hold and fill in the area with the desired plant. Besides pulling weeds, it seems to me that burning them with the torches that burn right down to the root system is the way to go, followed by a handful of soil/compost and seed (or turf) of the grass you want growing there. If you are dealing with quackgrass (crabgrass?) which spreads by root systems then you may be faced with starting from scratch. We had an area inundated with it and had to rototill, rake out the roots and reseed thick. As Bill has pointed out, the folks at Organic Approach have been doing organic lawn care for years ( www.organicapproach.com ) and may have some good tips. Also Treegal and Barefoot James seem to be making a good go of it. I live on a farm in a very different temperate zone from you but we do have a patch here and there that we call the yard or the lawn. When we have some weeds that we'd like to not see, we do them in by pulling or burning and replace them with a weed we do want to see. It is usually knapweed, mustard or thistle we do in and then seed grass/clover and plant wormwood or Oregon grape, juniper, kinnikinik, etc. I noticed some on the forum talk about clover as a weed. We do have sweet clover and golden clover here that are invasive weeds but we view the red and white clovers as a good thing and seed them with grass because they cycle nutrients to the grass. I think that if pesticides are going to be outlawed eventually (I hope) then people are going to need to start loving the sight of clover in their lawn and mushrooms (mmmm) and indigenous plants and having longer cut lawns. The way lawns/yards are now is just conceptual; how we were brought up to view yards.

Salutations,
Tim

[PaperCutter]

The way lawns/yards are now is just conceptual; how we were brought up to view yards.
Tim

Ain't that the truth! I think we all grew up with the 1950s ideal of the perfect lawn- homogenous, perfect, sterile... My bread and butter is as a designer, so more and more I've tried to make a natural lawn part of the landscape instead of lawn here, plants there, two completely separate ideas. I'm getting back into maintenance, since I miss the hands-on work and I'm pretty excited about organics.

Sorry to interrupt, back to lurking!

[DeepGreenLawn]

Tim, as far as I am concerned and from what I have learned thus far is that the soil is what makes the lawn.

[treegal1]

soil makes the plant, whatever it is!!! there's no way to disconnect from that...

and the people we hire are as valued as the rest of my staff. day one we go to the police station and get a little look at there records, or lack there of, we can speak frankly with them in there language, to see where there heart is at. and we pay well so turn over is not an issue.

any asole that's a bigot and a anti Hispanic, or any other race is just out of luck, there's no issues with who i hire, and my customers if they do ask i tell them strait up whats what!!!!! and most of my customers only Email or call to thank me, we stay on top of the game!!!!!! no one ever asks about weeds or any thing else. we have informed them to the nides, and only sell a appearance, my standards are crazy high. we set the bar for the rest of the company's. and they look up to us.

[DeepGreenLawn]

thats what I am talking about, That is what I need to do, sell an appearance. That way I can just do whatever I want, if they want it more organic they pay more, if they don't care, I will do whatever is most cost effective and/or effective for what I want to do. When you have someone on a "program" does the price stay the same throughout the year? Do you even have a program?

[treegal1]

the organic thing is my pet, if they are not interested in organics then great, they get it any ways, that's just how we do it. the organic thing goes like this. good for the earth, no go, looks great, they wake up from the snooze, costs less over all, that's the sell point. looks great cost less. that's the ringer.

[DeepGreenLawn]

so... you go up, I will make your lawn look great, and by the way I will do it with out the traditional chems. It may cost a little more up front BUT... it will actually be cheaper in the long run. How is that?

[treegal1]

your gettin this now. no more we have weeds calls just get to it first

[DeepGreenLawn]

ha! beat them to the punch, CUSTOMER SERVICE! you could have weeds everyday for the next month, you beat them to the punch and they couldn't be happier.

:cool2: :cool2:

[ICT Bill]

Less inputs = equals less overall cost to both

A buddy of mine has a company called "less is more" and he lives by it too. of course his last name is Less

[Organic a go go]

Pulling weeds in the midwestern soils and climates is not what I would pass on to some laborer to do. I have weeds that occasionally appear in my properly prepared organic garden that are a real challenge to pull - root and all. I pull weeds myself in these old trodden down lawns and getting the root w/out ripping up sod is virtually impossible.

I don't like to turn spot hires loose with a weed hound because they're too slow. I can clear 5000-6000 sq ft. of dandies/plantain before lunch. These guys are going to take too long. I bill the labor high, do it myself, and have more left over at the end when I don't have to manage some day laborer.

Why are you ripping up the sod??

[Organic a go go]

How do u pull a patch of white clover? or creeping charlie?


Rake out the clover getting as much as possible. Hit whats left with a small propane torch, plumbers torch. Water in some blood meal, seed and call it good. If its an older lawn I'll give it some CGM in the fall.

Creeping Charlie is a pain but it gives up the ghost to Burnout pretty easily. If its really in the yard I take one of those old envelope wetters. I don't know the name of the thing but they're small plastic containers with a plastic applicator on the end that you'd run across the adhesive strip of an envelope. Fill with Burnout or Scythe or whatever and go after the leaves.
It gives me a good spot application without killing surrounding grass. I've had really good die back this spring even with the cooler temps. Rittenhouse sells a cool spot applicator but the applicator head is too big for Charlie in the lawn. Its better suited to weeding beds.

Poa Annua you say?? Plastic glove, lightly mist with Burnout, and sweep hand over the seed heads. Not 100% but it prevents a good deal of the seed drop you'd be getting otherwise and customers love to see the stuff dead in the yard.

Violets usually take repeated apps and if its cool like it has been then I don't get great results. I don't like to pull violets but I will if I have to.

Dandies I pull, and yes apply calcium if there is a serious problem. Plantain will die back if treated when warm but they're not hard to pull so I usually pull a lot of those too.

In every case I re-seed like crazy. I don't even know off the top of my head how many pounds of seed I go through a week in the spring. Its a lot.

Size of my lawns?? It varies from 3000-7000 sq ft. I work alone most of the time but do hire people in from time to time but haven't found people who can keep up. There are a few much bigger lots in the area I work and I'd kill myself trying to do those solo so I'd have to find some good people but otherwise the approach would be the same.

Amount of time spent on lawns? Again it varies. I've got a couple that are huge time eaters. New construction nightmares. But the lawns I've had for several seasons take much much less time than the newer customers I get.

[Smallaxe]

Because the clover has so many branches I can't get ahold of them w/out grabbing a bunch of grass as well. The grass will come out by the roots of course, but the clover just snaps off at the crown..

What is this weed hound?

[Smallaxe]

Sponge application is a good idea for creeping charlie. thanks.

[DeepGreenLawn]

oo oo oo, I know, It's great, I would get the one from HD though, lowes broke on me the first week. I can't find it on their website, but basically its green has a curved handle. What you do is put it over the weed, step down and there are a lot of spikes that dig into the cround forming a cone, pull it up and here comes the weed and roots. great for the weeds that have that single root going straight down, what do you call that?, like what the dandelion has.

[Organic a go go]

Because the clover has so many branches I can't get ahold of them w/out grabbing a bunch of grass as well. The grass will come out by the roots of course, but the clover just snaps off at the crown..

What is this weed hound?

Yes you're right, raking out clover is going to take the grass out too but I explain that customers before hand.

Oh man, if you're not familiar with the Weed Hound you gotta find one.
Its nothing fancy HD, Lowes et al sell them. Here's a link to a pic and description.

http://www.hound-dog.com/weed_hound.htm

If a tap root is really long I don't always get all of it. Sometimes you can hear the root pop as you pull it. But on most dandies it takes them out really fast. Push, twist, pull. It takes a little plug of soil out as well which is a great place to drop some see into. If a yard is really bad it'll look like its been core aerated afterwards. You have to clean up the plugs though. Not a good idea to leave weed roots sitting on top of a lawn.

Rain Holiday this AM. Next week will be hell catching up.

[ICT Bill]

Go Go, If its raining you should be out applying compost tea

You don't know how many calls I get from Lawn care owners saying how they love compost teas because now they can work in the rain

[treegal1]

Rain God yes please rain, any thing any time. and tea in the rain, always, you should see the looks on the chems faces, and the EPA humps that saw us where dumbfounded???? gave him a card and a fly-er and said to call later, my tea is getting cold!!!

[ICT Bill]

Are you guys still in a drought down there? I thought Florida was a tropical rain forest all of the time

what has it been 73 years, soon we will call it East Los Angeles

[treegal1]

we have got some rain. but the swamps are only half full and we are in water restrictions!!! we have gotten about 1/3 the normal rain. the scary part is low water years are hurricane years, Donna, David, Erin, Andrew, Frances,jean, Katrina. all in dry years!!! we don't need another Andrew, we almost lost everything in 92. and in 04 we got hit real bad, we are still fixing hurricane's damage.

[Smallaxe]

I don't know that I can find one in my area. I may have to go to the city to HD. The big box stores around here weren't on the list. Ace hardware is dieing out so they don't stock much anymore.
Thanks for the ideas guys.

[NattyLawn]

I don't know that I can find one in my area. I may have to go to the city to HD. The big box stores around here weren't on the list. Ace hardware is dieing out so they don't stock much anymore.
Thanks for the ideas guys.

Spend 25 bucks and it ships free from Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Hound-Dog-Products-WEED-HOUND/dp/B0000DI835/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-2281946-6608926?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1212249276&sr=8-1

[Smallaxe]

Thanks Buddy,

It looks like the S&H will be cheaper than the gas.
At least close enough that I can excuse myself from driving into the city... !!!

[DeepGreenLawn]

do you have a lawn care business small or you just doing it on your own property?

[Smallaxe]

do you have a lawn care business small or you just doing it on your own property?

Haha. I don't really have lawn. I am a solo operator and everything happens for profit. [but only if the client is happy with the cost and results]

Why do you ask?

[DeepGreenLawn]

you keep talking about going to the "city" for something like HD, so... I was wandering if you had a business how you had enough business to stay in business out in the country. Just curious.

[Smallaxe]

Lake resort cottages [mansions]. That's almost a city itself, but I can still block traffic parking on the road, just to chat :)

[DeepGreenLawn]

ahhh, I have never been to wisconsin so I don't know anything about the terrain. Interesting.