Quicksilver carfentrazone

[RigglePLC]

Has anyone else tried the fourth active ingredient in Speedzone by itself? I bought some Quicksilver and tried it on several weeds.
Moss--no effect at 72 hours. Not silvery thread moss--not sure what species.

At a weedy vacant lot, fair results. Slight injury to grass. Younger leaves of weeds burned dead or nearly so. Older leaves not much affected, or only brown spots. These weeds sprayed:

violets
ground ivy
oxalis
chickweed
dandelion
garlic mustard
nutsedge
black medic

[rcreech]

Quick Silver by itself doesnt' work that well, and FMC will tell you that. But tank it with a 3-Way and it smokes!

What rate did you use by itself?

I run 1 oz of QS and 50oz of 3 Way/ac and get awesome results!

[PSUTURFGEEK]

I agree, a few years ago I was doing some field tests on quicksiver and we were tank, mixing it at a 2gallon/1000 rate with three-way and or another nufarm product them we sprayed it low volume with the centri we had at the time and our results on clover at two days were excellent.

[Terraformer]

I have used Quicksilver w/LV400 and it was deadly. Yes I did get some injury to turf, but the combo nuked dandies and broadlleaf weed. I credit Rodney (rcreech) for the tip about QS.

[greendoctor]

What kind of surfactant did you use with the Quicksilver and at what rate? Also what type of spray equipment and the parameters it was operated under. I get burnt weeds in 24-48 hours if I am doing Quicksilver by itself on newly planted lawns. Even sedges look bad in 48 hours. Flat fan nozzles operated at 40 PSI and 1-2 gallons/M. Check 0.25-0.5% nonionic surfactant in the spray dependent on how well the weeds are being wet. Check. I will start spraying and if I see the spray beading or not spreading out over the weeds, I stop to add more surfactant to the tank. The sedges are deceptive because the leaves are easily wet. However, their leaves are resistant to penetration by solutions, having 0.25% nonsilicone surfactant causes things to go through leaves. MSO or crop oil concentrates are the best for this, but I am careful about how this will make ester herbicides too hot for the grass. No MSO or oil if 2,4-D or anything containing it is in the tank.

[Terraformer]

What kind of surfactant did you use with the Quicksilver and at what rate? Also what type of spray equipment and the parameters it was operated under. I get burnt weeds in 24-48 hours if I am doing Quicksilver by itself on newly planted lawns. Even sedges look bad in 48 hours. Flat fan nozzles operated at 40 PSI and 1-2 gallons/M. Check 0.25-0.5% nonionic surfactant in the spray dependent on how well the weeds are being wet. Check. I will start spraying and if I see the spray beading or not spreading out over the weeds, I stop to add more surfactant to the tank. The sedges are deceptive because the leaves are easily wet. However, their leaves are resistant to penetration by solutions, having 0.25% nonsilicone surfactant causes things to go through leaves. MSO or crop oil concentrates are the best for this, but I am careful about how this will make ester herbicides too hot for the grass. No MSO or oil if 2,4-D or anything containing it is in the tank.


I'm using QS at 1oz. per acre and LI 700 at 20oz. per acre. I've also used a surfacant product from Tractor Supply "Top Surf" and have determined that I'm getting good results. My spray equipment are FIMCO 25 gallon units (boom and boomless).

[RigglePLC]

I used a one-quart pump-up hand sprayer, and added enough for 1000 sqft, about .09 milliliter. Plus a squirt of dish soap. The effects were visible in 48 hours. Sprayed on May 24. I will be watching the test. Stay tuned.

[greendoctor]

How much area was covered by a Quart of that mix? Volume, pressure and quality of spray pattern all affect how well carfentrazone works.

[Grandview]

Carfentrazone is mostly just a burn down. It burns younger leaves giving the appearance of quick kill. It also helps systemics penetrate.

[RigglePLC]

I didn't use the full quart of solution of course. According to tests on concrete drive last year a quart covers about 500 to 1000 sqft at low pressure with the nozzle adjusted to fairly fine mist.

The violets and ground ivy are looking more brown today. Waiting to see--will they die or bounce back?

[Whitey4]

I didn't use the full quart of solution of course. According to tests on concrete drive last year a quart covers about 500 to 1000 sqft at low pressure with the nozzle adjusted to fairly fine mist.

The violets and ground ivy are looking more brown today. Waiting to see--will they die or bounce back?

My chickweed bounced back.... yours? Some of the clover too. I spiked my 3 way with it, at the medium rate. I'll be going back with a second, slightly hotter app next week. With my first tank mix, I got very little turf stress symptoms. This time, hotter mix, and spot spraying instead of broadcasting to try to minimize turf stress.

My first year as a cert'd app guy.... and still learning. Some bad properties will get this app no charge... the old "I'm not satisfied routine".... largey due to my lack of experience with these tank mixes. Live and learn, eh?

[RigglePLC]

I tested Quicksilver (carfentrazone) after 18 days, by itself. At about .09 milliliter per 1000 sqft. Dish detergent as surfactant. As others have seen, Quicksilver is a fast-acting contact herbicide. Younger leaves are more affected than older leaves. It burns the leaves it touches--but there is no systemic activity. Some weeds recover by putting out new growth.
Moss--fair result--turned slightly brown for a couple weeks--seems to be recovering.
Violets--good effect, most leaves killed, slight regrowth after 18 days.
Ground ivy--Partially brown, but recovered.
Chickweed--mostly brown, but recovered.
Oxalis--young leaves mostly affected--then recovered.
Dandelion--young leaves affected, survived
Veronica--very brown, coming back slowly.

It seems to me that a second treatment would be needed after two weeks. Also mixing Quicksilver with a three way product would be helpful, and probably prevent recovery. Of course Speedzone is already mixed.

Quicksilver has low toxicity and a low enviromental profile.

I am not sure if it is an official "Reduced Risk" chemistry according to the EPA.
Octane is similar. What about it Sponsor Shaneb? Is Octane similar--better? Reduced risk category?

[cod8825]

I use quicksilver with MecAmine-D(UAP equivalent of Three-Way super cheap) at a rate of 53oz three-way with .5oz of quicksilver per acre. I spray with a tank sprayer at a rate of 2gallons per M and I smoke everything dandelions,clover,plantains, violets, field binweeds all of it. When it was cooler I bumped it up a bit to 1.5oz per M with it being warmer next week I will drop it down to 1oz per M and .4oz of quicksilver. When temps get above 90 I get leary of spraying but like most I base spraying based on turf stress not temps

[Athletic field]

I used quick silver for the first time this year. So far very happy with results. I use vessel it contains Trimec, at medium rae, and I used 1floz/A of QS. Had ball fields and some lawns containing large amounts of clover and smoked it. Very little left

[shaneb]

Riggle. Looks like you have done a very nice study on Carfentrazone. The results are as I would expect. Both Octane and QuickSilver are PPO inhibitors, which essentially means that in the presence of sunlight, they will cause plant cells to erupt. They are contact only, which means that damage will only occur to portions of the plant that the chemical comes in contact with. Users should make a habit of adding a spreader surfactant to all contact herbicides. Your dish soap served this purpose to some level.

There is only one use pattern that I would recommend using Octane alone. This would be in newly seeded areas where it would be detrimental to use a systemic product like 3-way on young turfgrass. Octane will kill very young broadleaf weeds that come into these areas until the grass while the grass develops to a size capable of shading new weeds out. If these products are used alone on mature weeds in established turfgrass settings, they will simply "burn back" the weeds temporarily since there is no systemic action that kills roots. When added to phenoxy based products like 3-way or products containing Triclopyr or in the south, Metsulfuron, Octane and QS significantly speed up activity, which leads to much more immediate symptomology that translates to fewer call-backs from customers demaning instantaneous results that you just can't expect to get from systemic products alone.

As far as differences between Octane and QS, I would say that there definitely be some.

1. Users may see subtle differences in activity between the two products. For example, Octane seems to be better on Dandelions, whereas, QS has an advantage on plantain.
2. The environmental load for Octane is essentially 1/10th that of QS, meaning that QS requires 10 times the active ingredient as Octane to achieve kill. QS is classified as "Reduced Risk" by the EPA however, whereas Octane is not. Both products have extremely good environmental profiles with respect to volatility, soil-half life, lbs. a.i., etc.
3. Price per Acre is substantially less for Octane vs. QS.
4. QS is labeled for control of Moss and Octane is not at this time.

So...Here are my 3 tips for using Octane. I can't speak for QS, but I would assume very similar.
1. Always mix with proven systemic broadleaf weed control product, except in newly seeded areas where I would recommend Octane alone
2. Get in the habit of using spreader surfactants with any broadleaf herbicides, especially contact products
3. Use these products to sell your exceptional service to your customers! You can show new customers results in literally hours or days on some weeds. Be sure to point this out to your customers!

Hope this helps and thank you for sharing the results of your trial. This is good information for everyone. Good Luck this year to you all. Let's hope the economy doesn't impact your businesses to much.

Shane

[cod8825]

If I am understanding this correctly is Octane safe to use on lawns when I looked at the label it was labeled as a non-selective herbicide. Roundup is labeled as a non-selective herbicide as well.

Matt

[rcreech]

If I am understanding this correctly is Octane safe to use on lawns when I looked at the label it was labeled as a non-selective herbicide. Roundup is labeled as a non-selective herbicide as well.

Matt

cod,

Both Octane and QS are selective herbicides, or we wouldn't be using them on lawns.

Very good overview ShaneB!

Octane is a selective herbicide.

I only have two things to say:

1) Be careful when comparing the price of Octane vs QS. When I used Octane last year and wasn't happy with its performance, I was told that I had to use 1.5 oz/ac. There goes most of your price difference, as I only used 3/4 - 1 oz/ac of QS.

2) Octane doesn't get the hard to kill weeds such as Wild Violet which is very thick in my area.

I have used both, and personally I prefer and get much better results from Quick Silver.

I will probably get in trouble (again) for stating this as this forum is watched VERY CLOSE by the suppliers/sponsors, but this is America that is just what I have found. Both great products I am sure, I just think that the products are different and you are intitled to know what I have found.

[lilmarvin4064]

2) Octane doesn't get the hard to kill weeds such as Wild Violet which is very thick in my area.



I'll take your word on this. Apparently this works in your neck of the woods, but I have not been so lucky. I have sprayed violets with Speedzone Southern (contains carfentrazone) at the highest labeled rates, a few weeks apart, and it barely phased 'em. I noticed a little "speckling" but they recovered.

1 app control = Turflon (or Momentum FX2, Millenium Ultra, Battleship II, Three-way ester II) or anything with triclopyr (w/ or w/o fluroxypyr) + Gallery + Drive 75 + sticker.

[rcreech]

I'll take your word on this. Apparently this works in your neck of the woods, but I have not been so lucky. I have sprayed violets with Speedzone Southern (contains carfentrazone) at the highest labeled rates, a few weeks apart, and it barely phased 'em. I noticed a little "speckling" but they recovered.

1 app control = Turflon (or Momentum FX2, Millenium Ultra, Battleship II, Three-way ester II) or anything with triclopyr (w/ or w/o fluroxypyr) + Gallery + Drive 75 + sticker.

I definitly won't say that is gets 100% kill the first time....but it thins them out bigtime!

I have some properties that were covered and they are in great shape now. Also, OSU stated that it is easier to get in the fall vs. spring.

I accidently did a side by side last year in a cemetary (only because I ran out of QS) and the difference was amazing. The only thing different was the product.

[RigglePLC]

So ShaneB, are you saying that both Octane and Quicksilver, only work in the presence of sunlight? Mysterious! So if i spray at 9 pm--they would dissipate by morning and no effect?

Did you say Octane can be used for weeds in new grass? How new?

Am I (approximately) correct if I say Weed B Gone is 14 times more toxic than Octane? And it disappears more quickly? I hope so, as I have a customer that wants a very safe weed control. And one that dissipates quickly, and is safe for her lake.

You should help out the organic guys. They have no effective broadleaf control. But carefully spot spraying with a low-toxicity--fast dissipating product, that left far less residual than Weed B Gone or three way might appeal to them.

[Athletic field]

I don't want to get too off the course of this conversation, but you guys seem like the guys to ask. I spoke with and extention agent about using QS. He claim a university ( can'y remember which one) study showed that in 30 days there wasn't any difference in weed control between using trimec and QS vs. plain ole trimec, but the QS showed signs of wilt and desiccation earlier. Are you guys finding this?

[RigglePLC]

Quicksilver and Octane, as PPO inhibitors, have a very rapid contact burning action; you can kill every leaf--in 24 hours. Best used for annual weeds. The products do not do anything to the roots. Weeds with deep roots or extensive rooting systems, in my opinion, would be more likely to recover and put out new sprouts.

Purslane is great fun--turns black in 8 hours.

Mallow is resistant to Three-way, but Surge works beautifully--in spite of mallow's deep taproot.

Anybody else have good luck with certain weeds using one of the new products (PPO inhibitors)?

[rcreech]

I don't want to get too off the course of this conversation, but you guys seem like the guys to ask. I spoke with and extention agent about using QS. He claim a university ( can'y remember which one) study showed that in 30 days there wasn't any difference in weed control between using trimec and QS vs. plain ole trimec, but the QS showed signs of wilt and desiccation earlier. Are you guys finding this?

There is a little truth to that...but kill time is very important.

It also helps as Riggle says to control some hard to control weeds that 3-Way doesn't do well on. The ONLY other reason I add it is for WV control.

I wouldn't spend the extra $13.60/ac if I didn't think it was worth it.

[cod8825]

Probably what the university stats is true but sometimes we do what is necessary to achieve the results that the customer expects of us. I know in my operation I would much rather only spend $.25 per 1000 SQ FT. for weed control that I get with Momentum FX2 but I hate having to explain to customers that it will take up to 14 days to start showing signs of wilting and dying and some weeds. I will spend the extra $.15 to do 3-way with Quicksilver to get wilting in one to two days and death in week or so to make a customer go "Wow that guy knows what he's doing."

Matt

[FdLLawnMan]

Probably what the university stats is true but sometimes we do what is necessary to achieve the results that the customer expects of us. I know in my operation I would much rather only spend $.25 per 1000 SQ FT. for weed control that I get with Momentum FX2 but I hate having to explain to customers that it will take up to 14 days to start showing signs of wilting and dying and some weeds. I will spend the extra $.15 to do 3-way with Quicksilver to get wilting in one to two days and death in week or so to make a customer go "Wow that guy knows what he's doing."

Matt

What in the heck are you paying for Momentum Fx2. The best I can do with Momentum is 0.46 per 1000 Sq. Ft. and that is buying it in the 30 gallon drums and applying it at the mid rate.

[greendoctor]

Probably what the university stats is true but sometimes we do what is necessary to achieve the results that the customer expects of us. I know in my operation I would much rather only spend $.25 per 1000 SQ FT. for weed control that I get with Momentum FX2 but I hate having to explain to customers that it will take up to 14 days to start showing signs of wilting and dying and some weeds. I will spend the extra $.15 to do 3-way with Quicksilver to get wilting in one to two days and death in week or so to make a customer go "Wow that guy knows what he's doing."

Matt

I would be no different from the others in this state if I used broadleaf herbicides without Quicksilver. I even use Quicksilver with Image or Certainty. That way, I can tell clients their resistant weeds will be damaged and dying within 48 hours. Quicksilver saves me from having to explain that their nutsedge or kyllinga will take up to 2 weeks before it shows signs of herbicide activity. I use all ester broadleaf herbicides, so it is not to long a wait compared to Trimec amine, but it is nice to see pigweed or sowthistle go down in one day. Because all of the weeds I deal with are hardened off by constant heat and humidity, they tend to react slower to even Quicksilver. I normally see the effects in 24-48 hours. Which is much better than 14 days.

[cod8825]

Don't what the heck me just because I put the price of the wrong product down. My momentum is $.64 per 1000 my bad. Am switching to Battleship III from Helena cost is $.46 per 1000 at 1.5oz per 1000 just got the quote today. I am leaving Lesco and not looking back.

[RigglePLC]

I also tested Quicksilver on some clover a week ago. However, I used the same sprayer and the same mixed batch. Results were not too impressive on the clover. BUT--how long does it last in the sprayer?

Shane--do you have any idea? Does anyone know if it is still good after a few days? Does Octane last longer--shorter time?

[rcreech]

It was probably just the conditions being different that made the difference!

I will make a blanket statement here....as I have absolutly no concern with herbicides left in a tank, espeically for that amount of time.

I have used Roundup that was mixed for over a couple years (when ever I have mixed too much for our farm sprayer I just pump it off into a 30 gallon drum and use it as I need it) and it still works just like the day it was mixed.

I just used some Liberty herbicide that was 4 years old last week on some corn and I got an awesome kill.

Now, if you were talking about insecticides I wouldn't say this, but liquid herbs in solutions will probably almost last forever (maybe not that long, but you know what I mean).