What's better? Revitilizer or core plugger?

[RobHawkins]

I asked my local lawn and garden store owner about using a power seeder like the Turf Revitilizer from Lawn Solutions. He said there was no better way of overseeding and existing lawn than with a core aerator and a broadcast spreader. He said a power seeder was good for new lawns but not as good for existing or established lawns.
What do you guys think? They rent the power seeders at my local Home Depot and the renter guy there said they work very well.
Thanks.
Rob

[kenny s]

Rob,
Hi, I am looking athe Lawn Solutions Revitilizer as well. I would like to overseed my accounts every year and I was told the Powerseeder did a GREAT JOB on existing lawns. Now , this was told to me by my Lesco dealer and two very good freinds of mine who own a very big commercial lawn maintenance and Lanscaping business. They have the Lesco Lawn Renovator and say it does a great job as well. They both told me the powerseeder is the way to go for existing lawns. The Leswco dealer also, (to his credit), told me the same thing your garden center guy told you about core aerating and them broadcast seeding. He said, since I already own a Ryan core aerator, I should use that and then over seed with the broadcaster first before paying $3300.00 for a powerseeder and using only part of the season. The Lawn solutions Revitilizer is nearly the same price as the Lesco. The one thing that they all told me that is key, is to do it in the fall when the weather start s to cool at night and the grass will grow. I do it is the spring clean up and that is probably why I do not get excellent results. The fall season is really hectic for me with leaves to blow and put out by the curbs. I work alone so I do not have a large window of opportunity to thatch, core aerate and them seed all of my lawn before leaf season. AND THE GRASS IS STILL GROWING at this time. That is why I think the powerseeder is better because it will do the thatching and then the power seeding all together. Of course you have to blow off, or pick up the thatch first before seeding, but that is a given. If you do not have much thatch, then you can go ahead and powerseed your existing lawns in onw shot, from what I have read from other fellows with alot more experience with these machines. Let me know you think.
Thanks,
Kenny S. - Northern NJ

[RobHawkins]

Thanks Kenny,
I think since I have never used one, I should. My lawn has never been de-thatched, but doesn't need to be. I use a mulching mower and cut, water and fertilize properly. But the drought we had last Summer here did a number on my lawn. I'd say 10% died and the dallisgrass and orchardgrass spread because I couldn't do any proper maintenance. I even had several trees to die as a result of the dry spell.
It just seems to me that placing all the seed in the slits the power seeder makes is efficient. With plugging, some of the seed fall in and germinate and some get covered too deep and never come up. The rest don't come into contact with the soil and are wasted as well. At $75 a bag, effective germination looks good to me.
Thanks again for your reply and help.
Rob

[kenny s]

Rob,
I think you are making the right choice by power seeding for the same reasons you stated. I find that only a portion of the seeds after aerating actually settle in the core holes and alot just gets waisted. I am seriously considering buying the Revitilizer or one similar. As far as your thatch, when you use the power seeder you will find out how much thatch you have or not, by how much the power seeder brings to the top surface of the lawn, like a thatching machine.If you do get or rent one and use it, please let me know how you liked it and the results. Good luck.
Kenny S.

[LawnSolutionsCP]

A power seeder will get 8-10x the germination rate over any aerate and broadcast seeding method. We have done studies for some of our largest customers who used to use this method prior to using our machines in their franchises.

A good power seeder will use less seed, take less time, and get much better results than an aerator and then broadcasting seed. I really don't understand how someone in the industry can say aerating and then to broadcast seed is more effective, but I hear people say it all the time.

[Marek13]

I started with core aerator and seeder after talking to Lesco guy (maybe because I was in the marked for aerator)
Last fall we did most of our client with classen overseeder(nothing special-push model)
We aerated the lawns then over seeded then with Classen over seeder then spread a bit of starter fertilizer (just to help the seed (no weed and feed)) and finally rolled the lawn to achieve max seed contact with the soil –grate result-
I don’t own overseeder but we rented it from Home Depot. But I am buying one -80% of my clients want annual renovation done after last fall.
If you have extra$ to spent it’s a good investment, but for now I would rent it.
Roll the lawn after seeding –helps tremendously.
PS.
I am not an expert in any way but I’ve asked some pros here and my local guys and that’s what they do –(1)aeration, (2) overseeding, (3) apply little of started fertilized for extra help), (4) roll it for max seed contact
Hope this helps

[kenny s]

Lawn Solutions Rep.,
Thank you very much for jumping in this conversation about power seeding. I think it is really good to hear from the machine companies Reps on these topics, especially when there are guys like me who have never used one and is trying to get as much info as possible. I watched the video and was impressed by the machine. I have also looked at other machines and they all seem to do the same job. I have a dealer close to me here in Northern NJ, and I am going to make a point at going over later in the week to look at yours, preferably the 9 hp. I want a machine that is going to do a good job with great results, and eliminate all the extra work required when having to use several different machines to get the same result as the power seeder. If there is any other info you can pass along I would appreciate it. Thank you again,
Kenny S. - Northern NJ

[kenny s]

MareK13,
Thank you for your help and information about your experiences with core aeration/broadcast seeding, and your experience with the power seeder and its results. The way you laid it out is very helpful, thanks for that. I am going to look at the Lawn Solutions 9 hp Revitilizer at a dealer in Mahwah, NJ this week. The more I hear you fellows talk about them and the results you get, it makes me want to get out there and do this to a number of my accounts whose lawns need to be thickened up from over seeding. I am going to take your advice and core aerate the areas first them powerseed. I think I am going to buy an inexpensive hand roller as well. The two fellows I mentioned in one of my other reply's said I could try their Lesco Renovator and see how it works. I may take them up on it for one lawn. I think I would like to have my own though, do I can use it when I want to. I will do my own lawn first, (1/2 acre), to ge the feel of it. Every time I buy a machine, my lawn is the first lawn it gets used on. Where are you from in Nothern NJ? YOu do not have to say if you do not want to. I am in the Park Ridge area, Bergen County. Thanks again for you help, I appreciate it.
Kenny S.

[Marek13]

Kenny,
As far as the roller goes-check your local dealers and buy the plastic one that you can fill with water -its easy to transport and you can vary the weight by adding more of less water.
I know around me- Bartells (Clark NJ) has them for like $80 or something -
Ps. I am in Union Township but most, serving Springfield, Livingston, Scotch Plains , and Maplewood.
Also Kenny, edit you profile and put your email and other info so we can send you PM (Private Message)

[kenny s]

MareK13,
I will check with some places about the plastic roller. That sounds better than the old metal ones, (alot easier to handle and throw up in the truck. I will do as you asked and edit my profile with my email address. I know where Livingston NJ is, my cousin who lived in Summit NJ used to workout at a gym in Livingston. I have also heard of Clark, but I do not think I have been there. We deal with very similar problems when it comes to lawns then. It is good to talk to you. Have a good day.
Kenny S.

[kenny s]

MareK13
Well my friend I bought the Lawn Solutions Revitilizer today and I was just trying it out in my yard. It is very easy to handle, even for a first timer like myself. I took down from my P/U truck on 2 2X4's to the driveway, no problem. It is not one of those monster heavy weights that you would not even attempt to do that with. I am going to over- seed my lawn tomorrow after I cut it down to 2" and dethatch it alittle. I thatch every spring but some thatch came up while I was trying the machine out. Then I will load it with seed and do the deed. I will let you know how it works out. I am sure it will be fine. I was even on my hands and knees checking the depth of the slits so I could count the holes on the depth adjuster so I know what hole to put in in for the depth I want. 1/4 to 1/2 inch is recommended for overseedeing. I will get back to you.
Kenny S.

[kenny s]

RobHawkins
Rob,
I bought the Lawn Solutions Revitilizer today. I like the way it handles. I am going to do my lawn tomorrow so I will let you know how it works.
Kenny S

[RobHawkins]

Keep us posted.
I started another thread on power seeding after glysophate without tilling.

[Runner]

I always spray the gly just after seeding....Much better results.

[RobHawkins]

I always spray the gly just after seeding....Much better results.

But, won't the Round Up kill the seeds???

[rcreech]

I asked my local lawn and garden store owner about using a power seeder like the Turf Revitilizer from Lawn Solutions. He said there was no better way of overseeding and existing lawn than with a core aerator and a broadcast spreader. He said a power seeder was good for new lawns but not as good for existing or established lawns.
What do you guys think? They rent the power seeders at my local Home Depot and the renter guy there said they work very well.
Thanks.
Rob

This dude don't have a clue!

I would never core/seed over slice seeding.

Slice seeding is the best way to seed!

Go back and tell him he is a freak'n moron and that his advice was not sound!

[LawnSolutionsCP]

No, it will only kill living plants and is only active for 3-4 days. You can actually spray and seed the same day, but not really recommended unless you are doing spot treatments on areas that still haven't fully died as a 2nd application.

[rcreech]

No, it will only kill living plants and is only active for 3-4 days. You can actually spray and seed the same day, but not really recommended unless you are doing spot treatments on areas that still haven't fully died as a 2nd application.


Stick to seeding equipment David! :laugh:

Glyphosate has no soil residual and will only kill plants that are activly growing.

EXAMPLE
If you knew the seed was going to germinate 10 days after seeding, you could technically spray Gly on day 9 and be totally fine!

[LawnSolutionsCP]

Isn't that pretty much what I said. It has no effect on the seed???

[rcreech]

Isn't that pretty much what I said. It has no effect on the seed???

I'm sorry...I thought you said it was active for 3-4 days.

Anyway, I am just kidding with you.

[LawnSolutionsCP]

Thanks for keeping me on my toes.

I do the same thing.

[Runner]

Actually, the gly does have some effect on the seed. It speeds up the germination rate (and somewhat increases it, as well) by softening the shell of the seed and allowing it to crack sooner. As long as you know you are getting good coverage of the area, all is well.:) But bottom line, either way you do it, the Revitalizer is by far superior to any plugger for this procedure.

[rcreech]

Actually, the gly does have some effect on the seed. It speeds up the germination rate (and somewhat increases it, as well) by softening the shell of the seed and allowing it to crack sooner. As long as you know you are getting good coverage of the area, all is well.:) But bottom line, either way you do it, the Revitalizer is by far superior to any plugger for this procedure.

I never knew that a gly app would help increase seed germ. Is this something you have learned on your own, or is their data to support this?

Please let me know as this may be a good practice!

[07Limited_WRX]

:clapping:A power seeder will get 8-10x the germination rate over any aerate and broadcast seeding method. We have done studies for some of our largest customers who used to use this method prior to using our machines in their franchises.

A good power seeder will use less seed, take less time, and get much better results than an aerator and then broadcasting seed. I really don't understand how someone in the industry can say aerating and then to broadcast seed is more effective, but I hear people say it all the time.



Hi

I am new to this forum but not new to forums in general. So I have done some research on this forum and other sites. I tried to do my own research by searching for my own answers first. I know not to just come on any forum and not do your own searching and just start asking questions that have been covered countless times.

What I found instead was this thread and I am now uncertain. It definitely validated my prior suspicions about core aerating though. I have a thread posted under the "HomeOwners Assistance" string and my user name. Thought I had my aerate/thatch/overseed my annual rye with bermuda plan of attack for this coming weekend all figured out until reading this thread. Now I'm unsure about my plan and CANNOT follow up my beautiful winter rye with a sorry summer bermuda turf! http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/IMG00059.jpg :confused:

Could one of you PRO's please check out my "HomeOwner's Assistance" thread for a brief history of my lawn and my current situation to give me some expert advice? This thread now has me very interested in renting something like the power seeder rather than the my usual plug type aerator. I have no idea if I can afford to rent one though.

I strive to turn what was the worst looking into the best looking yard in my neighborhood. This is a lofty goal considering I am a 30 year old living in a subdivision of retired people with nonthing to do all day but work on their yard while I work 55 hours a week. This annual rye has had me mowing every 4 days and coming home on my lucnch break to mow! Believe me I got eveyone's attenion with the annual rye overseed of my bermuda as well as with my Christmas Eve and sometimes nightime, LED headlamp, mowing that I had no idea I'd be doing when I seeded!

I will think long and hard before I repeat this annual rye overseed come this fall. It is a lot of work for a 22" Toro Walk Behind Bagging Mower. Mower has a small bag already, but grass was so healthy and thick I could not go 20 feet without my chute being clogged up with soaking wet, cut, rye grass. This was the case even if it had not rained in a week. It was like nothing I'd ever seen! Was also my first ever experience with cutting annual rye and did not know what to expect.

At the time of this reply my thread is still the most recent post in the "HomeOwners Assistance" string under my screen name. I need some quick, professional advice on how to do my bermuda overseed on my annual rye since this thread has proved my suspicions to be somewhat true about plug type aerators efficiency.

I really want one of you to read my thread in the "HomeOwners Assistance" string and try to address all of my questions asked in the last paragraph PLEASE? Post them in the "HomeOwner's Thread" where they belong please! These way it may help out others like me by being in the right place on forum. I just jumped in here to get you professional's attention and beg for advice after reading this thread's content. I have at least learned a different type of aerator and plastic/water fillable roller would now be a good idea but you guys may even recommend against this if you read about my lawn. So please take the time to read my thread and share your knowledge. I will definitely print it all out for future reference and try to contribute my knowledge gained to your forum and others like me. Forums are awesome resources so long as you can weed out the bad from the good advice.

Thank you so much for any advice you can provide me as well as any info on the best rental pricing and locations for the "Power Seeder" or something similar. I was considering, before reading this thread, about maybe just buying a pull behind spiker!!! I did not realize that these can be used for more than just pre-seeding and actually help the health of your lawn. So if a good one of these was recommended then I would consider just BUYING it to do the job vs. renting the power seeder but only if it will do anywhere near as good of a job! Then I could also use it year around to occasionally oxygentate my soil.

Please post any replys to this one in my "HomeOwners Assistance" thread if you do not mind. It gives a more thorough history of my turf since buying my house and covers a few more questions I would like to know about. It may also help others like me by being in the right location within your forum.

Sincerely-

Kris

[rcreech]

Your post was too long for me to read...but if that is your lawn, no seeding is needed. That is a very nice lawn!

If that is not what you were asking then never mind!

[Runner]

I never knew that a gly app would help increase seed germ. Is this something you have learned on your own, or is their data to support this?

Please let me know as this may be a good practice!

Dog gone it. Yes,..I had some GREAT info on this from universities, and were saved in my bookmarks (that were all wiped out when my computer was sent in) I am looking now. They were interesting and in detail. they also went on to explain how this practice should NOT be used for crops that are grown to produce seed (wheat, soy beans, etc.), because the seed germination of the seeds TAKEN off these plants was significantly decreased. The practice of the gly application to the seeds was based on plot studies of areas that were planted wit pre soaked seeds (soaked in a warm water brew of sorts) to soften the shell and allow the embryo to more easily emerge. The gly did the same thing. Great articles, ...I'll keep looking.

[07Limited_WRX]

Yes that was my lawn about a month ago. But that is annual rye overseed on Bermuda. Now it is in the 80 degree range every day and the rye is browning and thinning out. My dormant Bermuda has been coming back for about 3 weeks and I want to aerate/thatch/seed Bermuda/starter fertilizer/roll with a plastic water filled roller this weekend. Planned to rent my usual core aerator until my suspicions were confirmed when I read this thread. The plug type aerator is not very effective due to plug spacing and seed only germinating in the plugged holes for most part resulting in patching IMO. Asked home depot guy in tool rentals about renting a power seeder and he'd never heard of it. They had a slitter seeder that looked simular to what I was expecting power seeder to look like. Like little saw blades every couple inches across. It was also called an overseeder. You loaded seed in the rear. Is this the same as the power seeder you guys were saying they rent out? Either way it appeared as if it would open the soil up for the seed much more so than the plug type aerator. I last measured my soil temp about 2 weeks ago at 2" deep and it was 65 degrees, ideal depth and temp for spring Bermuda seeding based on my research. Plus my dormant is starting to grow and rye is dying. Is this weekend a good time to do this and is my game plan sound? Read in one thread where it said you should allow time for your grass/soil to rejuvenate before seeding after aerating? Don't see this as being as important when using the starter fertilizer and rolling at the end. As you can see from my above photo. I had a pretty good stand of rye going that I attained with nothing more than a core aerator, annual rye seed, correct seeding timing and watering, and perfect weather to compliment. So should I use the slitter seeder and knock it all out this weekend as I have outlined above or does anyone recommend anything being done differently. I joined this forum to get professional advice that I could learn from and hopefully share with others that are always asking about my yard. My bermuda turf has never looked quite as good as the annual rye did. But I only aerated and seeded with it one time and did not do any research beforehand. I doubt I timed it right at all. Right now just seems like the perfect time for seeding the bermuda on my lawn from the research I have done. All advice from pros is much appreciated and is the reason I joined this forum. Thank you in advance if you took the time to read this and even more so if you give me any tips.

[kenny s]

MareK13
I sent you a reply telling you I bought the Lawn Solutions Revitilizer. I love it!! I have a question for you or any of the other pros who have been doing powerseeding in the northern states. I would like to know the appropiate manner in which to price and charge for powerseeding jobs. I am assuming you charge by the square Ft., and the prices vary depending on what part of the country you work in. Can anyone assist me with this? I would appreciate it very much. I live in Northern NJ in Bergen County where alot of people pay to have their lawns maintained, because they can afford it. Any advice would be aqppreciated.
Thank you,
Kenny S.

[07Limited_WRX]

Guys please just tell me if the slitter seeder or overseeder as home depot calls it going to be more effective than core aerator????? how deep do i want to set it to go for overseeding my annual rye that is dying for my re-emerging bermuda? should i dethatch if I always bag clippings? moisten soil prior to aerate? then thatch and blow off? then seed and put out starter fertilizer then roll it this weekend? soil temp 2" deep is about 70F. dormant bermuda been growing for about 3 if not 4 weeks. necessary to wait after aerating for grass/soil to rejuvenate if I am using starter fertilizer and rolling it when done? daily avg temps are in 80's. full sun yard. advice quickly please? you can read my above long threads for more info on my turf's history. pic i posted was annual rye about a month or longer ago when temps were occasionally hitting 70's. Please help quickly!!!!!!!

[LawnSolutionsCP]

A seeder is much better than any aerator. Much higher germination rate...

Cut short, run over in 2 direction...make sure you calibration is correct on seed flow rate.

You can mix the seed in the hopper with a carrier....contact your local turf house when you purchase the seed. They will be ableto help.

Water 2 times a day to keep is DAMP so it germinates. Soil temp should be 70+ and it will come in nicely. Should take 10-14 days. I would get electronic timers for watering. It makes it very easy.

Let me know if you have anymore questions.

The Home Depots in Chattanooga don't have our seeders yet...but if you ask they can get them. We currently have them in Knoxville and Nashville.

[07Limited_WRX]

A seeder is much better than any aerator. Much higher germination rate...

Cut short, run over in 2 direction...make sure you calibration is correct on seed flow rate.

You can mix the seed in the hopper with a carrier....contact your local turf house when you purchase the seed. They will be ableto help.

Water 2 times a day to keep is DAMP so it germinates. Soil temp should be 70+ and it will come in nicely. Should take 10-14 days. I would get electronic timers for watering. It makes it very easy.

Let me know if you have anymore questions.

The Home Depots in Chattanooga don't have our seeders yet...but if you ask they can get them. We currently have them in Knoxville and Nashville.

So I need to probe my soil temp again at a depth of 2" and make sure it is up to 70 degrees correct? If so then I can go ahead with the plan I laid out above for this weekend? So cut rye/bermuda blend to what heigth before going over it both ways with the seeder. You are saying two actually apply seed both ways as well correct? I always bag my clippings so what do I need to do about thatch? Will the slitter seeder at Home Depot get that up so I can blow it off? How deep do I want the slitter going into ground? Do I mix my seed with the starter fertilizer as the directions say or not? Can I mix the two in the overseeder/slitter seeder? Once all this is done roll over entire seeded area with a roller? Then water twice a day for two weeks or more and keep soil moist? Will this be effective if soil temp is near 70 degrees? I need to get it done this weekend and do not have time to wait on power seeder unless I can order it tomorrow and it be here by saturday morning and not cost more than $175 or so for 48 hours! If, and I am sure I will, overseed annual rye in fall I will definitely try the power seeder out. Please advise from here? Thank you so much for taking time to help. I will share my knowledge with others.

[Runner]

Actually, your soil temp only needs to be 55 degrees for 3 days consistent for seed germination temps, so you are good in that area. Somewhere around an inch should suffice to let enough light in for germination and growth. Apply your seed in two directions for the best coverage (we prefer a 45 degree angle from the first pass, as it leaves a closer knit pattern) at half rate per direction (x2 passes will = full rate).
As far as the clippings go, as long as you don't have a real heavy thatch problem, you will be alright. A good test is to run the blades for a test run first without dropping seed to see how much you pull up. If you pull an excess of material up that covers more than 50 to 75% of the ground as it lays on top, then you will want to run this and gather the excess up (preferably by blower or mower) before actually seeding it. You will ALWAYS have some left on the surface though, and this is good. It is actually an integral component in the process, as this material actually holds moisture for the seed and keeps it cool (from scorching). This material won't hurt anything and will naturally dissipate and decompose in time since it has been fluffed up.
Run the seeder about an inch in the ground, maybe a bit deeper if you have uneven ground (dips) that the blades don't penetrate on (you'll know where they are).
Do not mix the starter fert in with the seed. Apply it afterward, as you will want an even application, and even though you will get a perfectly even distribution with the Revitalizer, you yourself are unable to mix the fert properly with the seed.
To roll over the area with a roller afterward is completely optional, but I can tell you it is unnecessary. With the revitalizer, the seed will have completely sufficient contact with the soil (another benefit slitseeding over aerating to overseed). Then, follow the watering instructions given above. the main thing is, is that it is kept conSIStently moist...So if it takes twice a day (which it WILL take atleast that), that is fine, but it may even take 3 times a day - depending on heat and soil conditions. Now, the thing to remember is, at first, it is only necessary to water for short times. You only need to moisten the seed...not pump 2 inches of water through the soil. So often, we see people water seed for a half hour at a time. this is totally unnecessary. In a few weeks, you will see little grass plants starting. At this point, you may want to water a little deeper - eventually backing off on the frequency as it starts filling in. This is because as the plant starts to grow, and the roots start to penetrate the soil, it retains moisture a bit more. Hit it with some starter again in a few weeks, and DON'T let it go dry. This is a critical time, because if these new seedlings dry out, they die. Once they're gone, they never come back. Now, also understand, that you are doing this at a critical time, and this turf is going to need special care all summer long because this new grass is going to be susceptible to heat stress. Keep it watered!

[kenny s]

Runner,
I read your thread replying to one of the other fellows about powerseeding his lawn. I found it very informative, so much so I printed it and have it as a guideline, I hope you do not mind. I have a 2 questions for you. One is I was told the slits should be 1/4 to 1/2 inch for seeding, you say approx. 1" is good. Have you found from experience that you get good results by planting 1" in the soil? Is 1/2 in okay and 1" better?
#2 question pertains to when you are powerseeding an existing lawn to thicken it up as opposed to a total renovation where killing the existing lawn is involved. After you cut the existing lawn down to 2", (is that good?) I am afraid of damaging the lawn if I cut any lower, but I will rely on your advice on this one. After I finish powerseeding the lawn, it still needs a weekly cutting during the growing season. Can I continue to cut the lawn or should I discontinue until the new grass has grown several inches. The rest of the lawn will have been growing all those weeks and could get quite high. What do you recommend? I will be doing such a job for one of my customers next week on a section of lawn approx. 60ft X 125 ft. The customer says if you cannot cut the grass while the new seedlings are growing, that is okay, no problem. I know enough not to ride over new seed planted on top soil where the seed is broadcast over the newly laid soil, but since the seed is pushed into the slits by the powerseeder, is okay to continue to cut until the new grass becomes visible growing up from the slits? Most all the lawns I will be doing will be in this circumstance. I have no total renovations to do at this time. I have never done this before, so it is new to me and I want to do it the right way so I can get excellent results for the customer, so I can continue to over seed in this manner each year for my accounts. I did my own lawn last weekend and I am watering it and keeping the soil moist. I guess I have to see the grass growing for myself to see that it works. I made the slits1/4 to 1/2 inch like the owners manual said, so I now wait to see what happens. Have you had very good results with your experiences doing this? I look forward to your reply.
Kenny S.

[Runner]

Kenny,
First of all, all my replies and info that is posted on here goes strictly into formative copyright, as it is all included in my book (this section is in chapter 12 and mentioned again in chapter 17). However, in this case, for your own use, we can let it slide :).
The question on the depth of seeding is an EXCELLENT question, and should be addressed. Theoretically, a 1/4" depth would be optimum - as a matter of fact, probably about perfect. But let's face it, unless we have a finish grade that is like a golf green, it just isn't going to work. the reason being, is there are going to be MANY spots that either have a dip - where the blades will not penetrate fully, or,... high spots - where the wheels, when going over, will cause the machine to rise a little bit...again, causing the blades to come up and not have effective penetration. A half inch is a great depth as well and more practical (and is effective). One thing that I have found, is that when you are drilling into clean soil (no foliage), and especially if it is a damper silt type soil (silt to clay), the cuts are a true depth. In sandier soils, the depth somewhat "backfills" a bit - especially as the seed in being rained into the soil grooves. In established turf, such as the poster's above, it tends to backfill somewhat as well and the seed doesn't actually end up at the true depth of the soil...it always ends up a bit shallower (which is good). This is just by experience, but some may have their own way. just a sidenote, while we are talking about the slits being cut, and the different types of soils, I would like to mention that with the Revitalizer, as opposed to seeders that have single blades such as our Lesco, the configuration of the several cutting edges on each blade delivers a cleaner cut with much less resistance - much like a rotary saw blade. Anyway, to answer your question, 1/2" is fine. as a matter of fact, however shallow you can go and stay cutting a slit, the better. It DOES have to be atleast 1/4 to 1/2", though, because too shallow has the potential to fill in before the seed even makes it's way down in the hole.
Now, for your next question, cutting it down to two inches may be ok - especially if it is a bit thin. as a matter of fact, I may have spoke out of context by saying 1 inch on this case, because I obviously don't know the weather conditions down there, and even more so, I will be the first to tell you that I know about as much about warm season turf, as I do about anthropology (and I have trouble following the Raiders series). The theory for the height before seeding is a two parter. I was going by was that light is a great thing for seed germination, and a thick turf cut high will not allow this. Secondly, a shorter turf allows the seeder to do a cleaner job with less grass being tore up and placed to the surface. this saves on cleanup big time, and many times determines the difference between having to do a cleanup or not. Now, as far as cutting the lawn after the seed is planted, you HAVE to. You will not be cutting it at the initial height just before the seeding, but it WILL need to be mowed. Mow regularly. No, the grass won't all get trampled down and killed. The little bit of traffic it undergoes is greatly outweighed by the amount of grass being added. the main thing to take care on is the turning and skidding on the turf. the new seedling are much more susceptible to being pulled out (which is basically what happens with scuffing) than being pushed down.
If you are planning on doing this as a regular regimen for your existing lawns, that is fine (unnecessary, but fine). However, you need to set your timing to the early fall. This is for several reasons which we can later discuss (chap. 7).:)
Good luck with it, and keep it up!

[rcreech]

Great posts Runner!

Agree totally!

Let me know when that book hits the shelf as I want to buy your first copy!

Oh yeah....can you sign it too please! :laugh:

[Runner]

LOL. I just PMed Kenny, because he sent me a PM apologizing fr sharing the information that is under "copyright". I had to reassure him that I was just be facetious, as I so often do. those that know me well enough know that I kid around alot.:)

[07Limited_WRX]

Guys-

Thank you so much for all your tips. I really appreciate both of you for taking your time to help me learn proper procedure. I feel even better that it is pretty much exactly the way I was planning to do it except I found out about this much better form of overseeding versus core aerating and broadcast spreading!

Runner that stuff you typed should be published! I will have it printed out and laminated by tomorrow (never for resale or distribution) but to always have as a guideline! One that I should not manage to lose...and I will save it all over my hard drives. It was informative to the very last letter and I really appreciate you typing it! This entire forum should IMHO.

I will definitely post some pics in a few weeks of the new bermuda turf just to let you guys now how it went and maybe get some more tips! Grass was really thin as far as the rye and I therefore went with a very short cut. Should definitely be able to see slit's sizes well as they're cut. As well as the consistency of their cut pattern and depth, how well they fill with seed, and watch the amount of water/moisture I'm applying daily.

Like I had said earlier the rye was very thick in the colder months but the bermuda has never been quite as well established as the first time annual rye turned out to be. Which was pure luck considering my last minute research after I'd already aerated and the fact that the following two weeks of weather was perfect for germination. This is why I chose to really cut it low down to the 1" level and try to really get a good thick stand of bermuda this season for once! I have also timed this overseeding down to what I think is a good time to overseed on my particular yard.

Runner you mentioned something about this process really only being necessary in the fall? Does this apply to me or someone else? That is hypothetically, if I decide to continue rye/bermuda overseeding every fall and late spring? That annual rye was a lot of work! Trimming off 4" every three to four days! It could go a week without rain and you could not set clippings on fire! The poor little shoot on my Toro Walk Behind was constantly choked. I will think long and hard on doing that again but it was beautiful and definitely worth it at least once! Looked even better than posted pic before one night's extreme low killed off a patch. That pic was taken with my cell phone too.

Runner expand on what you mentioned about it only being an otional bi-annual process when you get a chance if it applies to me or please share any other advice. I certainly would not mind shooting you a few pics of my turf before I overseed on Sunday if they might help you make any more suggestions.

Runner a couple of questions about my particular lawn: (1)I do have some humps and dips in my yard and was thinking about starting off at 3/4" depth and measuring slit depth in these places compared to the flat ones after a non seeding pass? (2)Read somewhere about your soil is moist enough to overseed when you can stick a spade tip in two inches deep with little resistance...necessary? (3)I take it the waiting a week for turf/soil to rejuvenate I read somewhere after aerating is not necessary? (4)Keeping soil watered and just moist in 87 degree weather and direct sunlight would require MULTIPLE short interval daily waterings would it not?

I was surprised at how very little thatch there was from the extremely short and out of the norm for my grass mowing height. I am sure there will be more once I run the overseeder a pass or two. Thank you again for the comprehensive response. I feel all my bases are covered now! I also have the exact same feeling like I did about last season's rye overseed and it being the perfect time to overseed MY yard. Although I wanted to do it last weekend. Every member of your forum here should appreciate what you took the time to type out. I know I sure do. A great general guideline.

-Kris

[Runner]

First of all, thank you. that is very kind of you, but let's not push it too far, here. I am just a normal personal and enjoy helping. we have guys like David and RCreech, who with NO doubt, are just as and even more knowledgeable than I am. With David, if you knew his background in engineering and R&D, he truly is an incredible and very interesting person. Not to mention a West Point Graduate.:) RCreech, does exponentially more of this type seed work than I do.
We WILL look forward to the pics, though! Two questions you had first: You stated:

"Runner you mentioned something about this process really only being necessary in the fall? Does this apply to me or someone else?"
I'm sorry, I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to. I did mention about something being optional but unnecessary, but that was the rolling of the lawn afterward. the only thing I may have mentioned about the fall, would perhaps have been that the fall is the most optimal time for this seeding (even though with proper extra care, it can be done during the spring and summer, too). I am looking for the bi-annual process, subject too, but I can't see it. It maybe because I am so hungry now that I can't see straight. Also, please take into consideration that you are working with southern to transitional grasses. I would love someone to chime in on here on cultural practices for overseeding and such for these (Ric?)
As far as your depth, run whatever depth is necessary to achieve your optimum slit depth. If you are using the Revitalizer, the beauty of that is, is that is takes about 1 to 2 seconds to set it to a deeper depth for a particular area and another second or two to set it back. (and no, this is not exaggerated that is just how simple and fast it is:)). for the moisture test thing,..well,...let's leave that to to the "farmer's GENERAL rule of thumb" and the home garden magazines, because it is just too folklore. A clay soil could have some moisture in it, and I could barely get the spade head in...A sandier soil could be dry as a buffalo's popcorn fart (mmm,...popcorn), and we could sink the spade head right in. One thing i CAN assure you, if you are using this Lawn Solutions machine, you won't have to worry about how hard or dry a soil is for seeding...it's going to penetrate and cut through. as far as the watering, yes...several shallow watering are necessary to keep it moist. This varies greatly with soil conditions, though. A clay soil may be able to be watered just twice a day and hold enough moisture (you may be able to water a bit longer, but avoid runoff), while a sandier soil can dry right out 3 hours after a watering. You just have to use your judgment and determine what the soil will hold, and don't be afraid to use a screwdriver or something (fingertip) to dig a short bit down into the soil and see what kind of moisture you are maintaining. Again, it is always different. I want to wish you good luck again, and look forward to seeing the results. It is always a pleasure.

[Scarlawnturf]

Can you please PM me I have a couple of questions about your equipment. Thanks, SCARLAWNTURF

[07Limited_WRX]

Ok guys been 13 days since I overseeded the annual rye with the bermuda using the Bluebird L22 Overseeder Slitter. First of all I had little thatch because I always bag. Problem I believe is I cut way too deep for my flat yard as well as my razing cut on grass before process was way too low. Here are a few pics.

Cut grass really short.......maybe not so bad had I not slit so deep!!!!

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1152.jpg
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1148.jpg

I have followed the watering tips religiously but as you can see how flat my yard is and I set Bluebird to #5 which is one less than max depth which you cannot even use! I got nothing coming up hardly on main yard. Seed is very deep I believe?


This is in corner by front of Jetta. One daytime and one tonight. The bermuda you do see is last year's dormant bermuda coming back.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1316.jpg
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1320.jpg


Here is a steep hill where nothing really ever grew but moss and dirt and it is filling in at about 1/4" height after 13 days. Obviously cut depth was altered by hill. On a sidenote this section has gotten less water than you guys recommended and it gets less sun? I don't get it? I have not over or under watered any part without a doubt. If I felt I had not kept soil moist in one area it is where the grass is growing in the pics below and it too was bare dirt to begin with like main yard after mowing so low. Please advise Runner? Will it come up in flat yard eventually, power rake, rake and seed, water less, redo it with or without seed, etc.? It has rained once in 13 days but soil kept moist. Photo taken 30 min ago sorry.


http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1319.jpg
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1318.jpg


What do you guys suggest? I was thinking going over it again without seed or with seed at much higher cut depth and bring seed to top or is it germinating down low and just going to take forever to come up. Runner or someone PLEASE advise


-Kris

Support our Troops. They're not politicians...just brave young men.:usflag:

[Runner]

Hang in there, and do NOT tear it up again. By the bottom pictures, it looks like it's coming in ok. Many times, it starts slow, but sort of goes at sort of a bell curve of growth rate. How much starter fert. did you apply? If it was normal rate (or better yet, a bit heavy), then you are about ready for another ap.

[07Limited_WRX]

Runner time for another application I agree. Thinking Mon or Tues. Had death in family yesterday.

Last minute deal. Had to go buy scotts drop spreader 1000. Never used a drop before and......well with my yard it did heavy fine, put on plenty cause that starter fert was finer.

At work, I used vigoro on scott's settings for vigoro and it seemed to put down nothing. Starter fert is huge. You can hear spreader grinding it up. Both apps I set two full points higher than recommended because it seemed to put out little.

So tell me that seed in flat yard is deep and is germinating deep? Do I water same? What baffles me is this: the pic you are referring to is on steep always moss covered hill. Never grass there before and my neighbor lets me cut 1 strip beside drive way on that same side. Which is other side of Jetta. If any soil that has not been kept moist (in other words watered as advised) it is this hill and strip. But yet even that flat strip has same growth as hill. The hill I can see the seed not going as deep cause I cut at same depth on a steep hill and penetration of slit be different. That side also gets less sun, which there's been 5/14 days max and 2/14 days of rain.

Here are front yard pics. I have my bermuda that was dormant coming up so it should all fill in I know. But I was expecting it to blow up like that ann rye. I realize this is bermuda and it's not gonna grow 2 inches in one day but I am not seeing anything on main turf. Look at pics of hill today and strip on same side and then main turf please?

Let me kow? Hang in? Change watering with deep seed? Is it germinating down there? There is no sun if seed 2.5" deep.

Sorry for all the huge pics in thread but I dont see where you can PM them like my car forums.

Front yard- Flat Turf Pics (all is dormant bermuda coming back.see nada of new growth):

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1328.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1327.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1326.jpg


Here is drive side by jetta with no growth. Still dirt.


http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1340.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1341.jpg

Had to get my pride in joy in since it's out body shop since rye pics. This week new wheels to go with black/chrome custom theme of head and tail lamps, JDM window visors, front lip chin spoiler, Rear under diffuser

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1344.jpg1

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1175.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1169.jpg


So sad this was turf less than 3 months ago....

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/Spring2008AnnualRye-SometimeBetween.jpg


Side of house which is pretty flat but I think a small run off under heavy rain. Ann rye is first thing to ever fill in over here. Full sun most of day so I left little extra thatch down here.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1343.jpg



Here is that hill on other side of driveway and the strip beside driveway where getting most growth. Less watering, less sun, and turf was not razed.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1337.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1330.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1329.jpg


Actual hill

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1336.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1335.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1333.jpg



Why the other side of drive? Less sun and not so low of raze? Slightly less water? Again to other members I apologize for all the huge pics but I do not know how to PM them on your forum. Maybe Runner could shoot his email to me somehow? Runner on opposite side of drive is not full, it just was not razed but does have growth all along it. Just tell me what I need to do please? Realize I got some crab grass and rye out there and who knows what else but a thick bermuda will overtake anything and I will weed & feed and kill off crab grass when turf is established. That main goal here. Runner what about just broadcasting a little bermuda out there when I do booster starter fert? Thank you so much man. Really nice guy to help.

-Kris


Support our troops!!!:usflag:

[kenny s]

I too am somewhat baffled with the non results of power seeding I have done recently with my Lawn Solutions Turf Revitilizer. I did my own lawn, and 3 lawn customers of mine and do far the results have been less than encouraging. Let me say right off, I AM NOT BLAMING THE REVITILIZER for these results. I have read so much about many of the other contractors who power seed, and who state the results are great, no matter what slit seeder they are using. So with that said, there are two of us right now who are discouraged with the results of our efforts, not to mention the over $3400.00 I spent on a power seeder. If I am doing something wrong here, I wish there was someone who I could turn to who could physically show me the exact way to use the machine, where there will be definate positive results, providing the right depth was cut into soil, the proper amount of seed flow was achieved, and the after watering is performed properly by the customer, or you and me in the case of our own lawns. The dealer I bought my Revitilizer from hardly knew anything about the machine, except for the basics, you adjust the cutting depth, put seed in the hopper and go! When I asked him if it had reverse, he told me no! Now I know I saw the machine going in reverse on the video when, especially when they tell you about the drive controls. Guess what? When I got it home and started to play with it on my lawn, it had reverse, just like the video. So David, if you read this reply, maybe your company should make sure that the dealerships that sell your product are properly trained in the operation of this machine, and exactly how it works under different conditions, and what best ways are to acheive the results advertised. Sorry, I had to get tht off my chest. I would call the dealer who I purchased the machine from and ask him, but I doubt he would be able to help me at all. I wish I could help you with your results, I am questoning what I did wrong, (if I did anythng wrong at all!) I cut it 1/4 to a !1/2 inch when I did my lawn, and granted it is not totally even so I am sure there were spots that it raised up, so then I deepened the cut after I realized it was doing that. then when I got to more even spots, I raised it alittle again. I put the amount of seed flow recommended, but cut it in half because I went in two directions like recommended. Ex- it called for 3 to 4 lbs per 1000 sq. ft, but said to cut that in half, (2 lbs if going in two directions, which I did). Then followed the watering every day at my house. When I was at work, I had my wife water in the morning and afternoon. I would even do it myself in the evening. There are still spots in the lawn that the slits still show, and there is not one new blade of grass showing, and we have had alot of rain here in Norther NJ over the past couple of weeks. I would like to do it again, and maybe increase the seed flow, but I will not put my lawn through that again at this time of the season because it is getting warmer, and it is greening up again because I have fertilized it and, and it continues to rain here atleast every other day. So I will wait until the early fall and do it again. The last two jobs I did, I went alittle deeper with the slits thinking I would get better seed to soil contact, in addition to going in the recommended two angle directions. It has been two weeks since those jobs, so I will see if there are any new seedlings coming up this coming week when I go to cut the lawns. As of this past week, no new grass was evident, but Runner said it could take as much as two to three weeks for Perrenial Rye to grow. I hope I see evidence of that this coming week. If I do not get the results, that I told the customers would occur, in good faith to these steady customers, I will not be able to add the charge for this job to their June bill. I am out the cost of the labor and materials for the 3 jobs. It is not the customers fault that the grass did not grow, providing they watered properly after the job was done. I had told Runner, "all I ask for is to see new seedlings growing from the slits, even if only in some spots and not all, I would atleast know I did it right and the conditions were right in those spots. If anyone can help you with your dilemma, Runner is the man to do it. There are others who are experienced in this field as well, Marek13, Rcreech, to name only a few. If you followed the proper procedure on your lawn, as I did mine, watering incl., I understand your frustration. I think I am going to have to call on two brothers I know who have a very large residential and commercial landscaping company who own a power seeder, (not a Revitilizer) so I won't mention the name, but who have done plenty of overseeding with their machine over the years both residentially and comm., and actually bring the machine to their yard and have them show me how it should be used, and I will compare that with how I did use it, and see if I went wrong anywhere. I think that is the only way I am going to find out why I have the results I have at this point. Again, let me stress that this is in no way a condemnation of the Turf Revitilizer, I just have to see why I have failed so far. Sometimes you actually have to see someone who is far more experienced in this field, use your machine like they were doing a job, and see if their procedure is different from yours, and if so, make the adjustments and try again. I am just alittle discouraged, but I will work it out eventually and if this slit seeding is as good as Runner and other say it is, I will reach the point of success in time once I am assured I am doing it right. Good luck!
Kenny S. :confused:

[07Limited_WRX]

Sounds like you did it perfectly and I think we will both see results. I kept checking my hopper at first to see if seed was coming out because I could not see it. It was mixing with soil that well. I think I just razed turf too low, which did not help but not the problem, and my real problem was cutting slits way too deep. On homeowners thread there are about 10 people complaining mainly about seed not being pushed into slits with Bluebird L22 Overseeder Splitter. Read nothing about growth results though. Like I said the bermuda is so fine it mixes in soil to the point you don't see it. I am just waiting on Runner.

He already said give it more time and did not at all seem concerned. Maybe at this time of year it is slower process with the heat but at least you've been getting rain. I am just so purplexed about the one side getting growth with less water, sun, and a 2.5" pre turf raze. I can still see slits and if Runner thought it was ok I could always broadcast more seed and starter fertilizer and do some watering. A pair of spiked shoes before this would be good to I feel but lets wait on Runner's opinion on that.

Machine came way to highly recommended Kenny for it not to work and I am seeing growth it's just in last place I expected. That is even at deep slitting depth on flat turf. I swear the watering and sun has something to do with the speed of growth. Because where I do have it, it gets less sun and water, which is exact opposite of drought tolerant full sun bermuda.

Maybe in 90 degree heat it is just going to take longer in full sun and more or less water. I posted plenty of pics so let's wait on The Runner! I would not sweat it if I were you. I think it is going to pop eventually but I was just used to the plugger and broadcast and then perfecto weather afterwards on the annual rye.

Sidenote I have always heard you can throw ann rye out by hand and it will grow without soil prep at all. Perennial may be different though. But keep the faith. Runner will school us. Here is link on Bluebird homeowner complaints I mentioned

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=118707&highlight=bluebird+l22+overseeder

but it is all complaints about not pushing seed into slits and nothing I read on growth results. Surely these machines are better than pluggers. I think we just do not know them yet. It sounds to me like you did your 3 yards just correctly. At least my machine was common sense on how to use and gave seeding rates on hopper and said to do a 45 pass to with both passes at half rate. Too much R&D in machines for them not to be better technology you would think huh? I'm just going to stay at it till Runner tells me different.

-Kris

Support our troops!!!:usflag:

[kenny s]

007Limited,
I too could not see the seed coming out and found myself constantly looking to see the seed in the soil, which I could not, so I thought I had the seed flow too low. I actually had to go over to my sidewalk, raise the blades all the way up and shut the blades off and turn on the seed flow. When Idid that, I saw the seed was coming out fine so I knew the seed was mixing with the soil. I just do not know why it did not come up. I did my own lawn on June 1st, 21 days ago!!! This was an existing lawn, not a new lawn. Like I said in my last reply, I am hoping to see some new growth at my customers house this week, (thursday the 26th) when I go to cut. At this point, she is more confident than I am!! Like I said, I will keep working at this until I get good results everytime. I love the Revitilizer and how it works, it is a great design, I just have to learn this new service, (to me it is new), and gain confidence in its results. Like I said, if I get no results on the jobs I did already, I feel I cannot charge the customer and will have to redo them at my cost. Cannot run a business that way. Keep me informed as to your progress, I am very interested to learn.
KEnny

[07Limited_WRX]

Kenny this an overseed on existing turf for me as well. I had dormant Bermuda from last summer that was overseeded with anual rye. Now you're scaring me because next weekend is week 3 and I did not realize you were that far along on your own lawn. I run a business too, for 8 yrs now, in auto quick lube and repair. You cannot charge your customer without results but you can explain they are doing this at a critically hot time of the year if it is as hot as you're saying.

I wanted to do mine 5 weeks ago. It sucks having to eat something like that when in business but just remember those two will hopefully be loyal customers for life because of how you are going to handle it! We all are in business and know that is how it's supposed to work. Have you done your booster of starter fertilizer yet?

I just watered my front and believe I saw some new seedlings on side of house where heat pump is which I've only had the rye ever take hold. This is promising if they are seedlings because like I said that area is kind of a run off in hard rain and in full sun 10 hours a day. So I am hoping week 3 will show some results. I need some good old natural rain!!!

With my seed being so deep I am just waiting on Runner to let me know if I should continue same watering or go deeper with deeper seed? I know I have not over watered and rotted anything out and I know I have kept it as moist as possible. I too have 3 areas to compare. My back yard was not razed but to 2" or so and I am watering it heavier from get go since it was slit deep as well. Then I have my business lawn to compare which is constantly kept moist 6 days a week from 8 am to 5:30 pm. It too was cut deep but had to be because of bumps and dips. I did it one setting shallower than I did my yard though :cry: .

We will just keep each other posted on results and Runner will chime in and HOPEFULLY tell us it could take a month guys, just be patient and continue to water. That one strip though on opposite side of my driveway (where I am getting seedlings on flat turf and the hilll) really has me curious more than anything else with Bermuda overseed. These results of this area should be able to tell someone smarter than me what is causing our problems don't you think? Less water or more? It receives less but is yeilding best results. If it is shade, which makes no sense with Bermuda grass, creating the better results, then I can do nothing unless I want to build a huge tarp over my main front lawn. I wish Lawn Solutions PC would chime in on this fact because that area gets less sun and water and he provided the strict watering guidelines. Only difference with it is turf was razed to only 2" at lowest and then there was the bare hill nothing ever grows on that is having best results?

-Kris

Support our troops!!!! Don't take our freedom for granted people. Blood has been spilt for it and our way of life for over 200 years. Agreeing with and being involved in a war has nothing to do with the wishes of the young and the brave that protect us. They are heroes and deserve nothing but respect and support when deployed or after their tours! :usflag:

[LawnSolutionsCP]

Kenny,

Can you send me or post a picture of what you have? A picture will tell a lot. In the past, when results were not great, it was due to excessive thatch or watering either due to not enough or excessive watering or rain.

Thanks

David

[kenny s]

Kris,
My lawn was done June 1st, like I said, 4 weeks ago. Between watering and the rain we have had, (some very hard thunder storms & rain for 15 min to 1/2 hour. It just rained like that before, very hard, and more possible tonight. We do not have the same heat as you have in Tenn. We had 3 days of nearly 100 degrees a week ago, but that was just a nation wide heat wave coming thru this area. After that, it has been cooler at night and in the high 70's to low 80's daytime. It will get hotter in July and August. It may be that with the hard rains we have been experiencing that TOO MUCH water is the problem. David from Lawn Solutions says that too much water could very well deter new grass growth, in my case this could be, I am not sure because this was an overseed of an exsisting lawn, and some of what I read says you can water deeper n this case. Hard falling rains during thunder storms may be alittle too much though.
Kenny

[Rayholio]

Your trouble spots may need a soil test to pinpoint the problem..

but on the aerator vs slit seeder debate.. I've used all three methods... Yes.. I can count.. With good seed at double rate, I've slit seeded with good results... I've Aerated with marginal results, and I've Aera-Vated with good results.. Slit seeders have a tendancy to grow grass in rows in raw dirt, or existing turf.. Aerators have a tendancy to ONLY grow turf in places where a plug has been pulled.. and Aera-Vators seem to get growth everywhere, but a little thicker in the tine impact points..

If someone made a slit seeder to go on the front of my grass hopper.. I'd use it instead.. but my aera-vator does a great job of truely fractuing the ground, and acheiving seed to soil contact.

[07Limited_WRX]

Kenny I have had like 3 - 4 light showers in the two weeks since I over seeded. We have kept soil constantly moist but not over watered by any means. Temps here have been around highs of low 90's to upper 80's but not very sunny, more overcast. I just think my seed is deep and hope it's germinating. I may do booster fert soon and then if still nothing maybe just broadcast some Bermuda and light rake unless runner says not advisable. I have dormant that will fill in eventually and hopefully the deep seed will come up with it at some point. Just keep me posted on what you learn please. It does sound like you could have had too much rain but you guys are the pros not me.

-Kris

:usflag:

[07Limited_WRX]

Guys I just wanted to let you know that you have a very nice forum here with some nice and helpful, and very knowledgeable members. I know you are not here to help DIY homeowners like me but some of you went to great lengths to help me anyhow. Runner and Kenny escpecailly have been a great help indeed and may just save me from having wasted all my money spent on seed, fertilizers, hoses, sprayers, sprinklers, and Bluebird Overseeder Slitter rental. Kenny I wanted to let you know to please keep me posted on your 3 yards please. Take some pics of any growth if you have a digital.

The Bluebird L22 has hopper placement behind the tines so it cannot push seed into soil from what I can visualize as being mechanically possible. My Bermuda was so fine a seed though it mixed in to where you could not see it. I'm sure the one foot cutting depth helped greatly though (lol).

Many DIY homeowners are complaining about the Bluebird L22 but I think they may not have known exactly all the ingredients that mix together for a successfull overseed and it is indeed a lot of ingredients. What I learned from last fall's rye overseed is that the weather is your best friend! Time it right and seed right and it will explode in a matter of days from nothing to seedlings galore. If weather uncooperative or you don't seed just right, water right, raze turf for sun penetration, dethatch, and really take care of your new seeds the first 3-4 weeks, then you may as well have poured seed in street!

If you go back to my very first post with the picture of the annual rye that was done with core aerator and broadcast. It turned out beautiful. But the weather following overseed was not "the perfect storm" but "the ideal weather". Perfect amount of daily rain and sunlight for a week straight after my first 2 days of light moist watering. These are the things that can mean the difference between a lawn like my annual rye early in thread and turfs that half a** come in because of lack of good post planting weather or bad overseeding procedure and follow-up care on your part.

Just wanted to really thank Runner and Kenny and to say please continue this thread and your posts to help? Kenny is in this business and needs to learn the ins and outs of his Revitalizer investment for it to be proffitable. He may have to eat the costs on his first two yards which we've all done in business and it sucks. So Runner or anyone else with the time and knowledge like Runner please chime in and help Kenny learn his machine please? He may have 2 yards to make up for. If you help him it will help me.

Just wanted to compliment your forum. I am an auto service business owner and a member of many car forums and this one is every bit as informative! Keep up the great forum guys and always share knowledge and help when you have the time. Your advice can really save someone some money.

-Kris

Please support our troops keeping us safe at home now and upon their return!!!! :usflag:

[kenny s]

Kris,
I want to thank you for the compliments you made, I appreciate it. I feel the same way about this site and the interesting and informative threads that are here for us to read. I have this before, it is good to have others in the business who are so willing to help with advice for me and others, who are not as experienced in some of the, aspects of this business, like powerseeding with a slit seeder. Runner is a fine example of this, but there are others as well, which I mentioned in a past reply.
I was at one of the accounts that I did an overseeding job for on the 13th of June. I did some new growth in some spots, but not everywhere I overseeded. This was an overseeding of an existing lawn with some bare spots, (very hard & dry clay like dirt), which I aerated first. You know Kris maybe I am not putting the seed down heavy enough, I thought I did but maybe I should go alittle heavier next time. It called for 3 to 4 lbs per 1000 for overseeding, I cut in half because I went in the cross angles. Maybe it has been the hard rains we have had due to the thunder storms we have been having for the past 2 weeks with heavy down pours. I could have lost some seed due to wash out. What I need to achieve is the consistancy of evenly growing grass in all the areas I overseed. I will see the other lawn I did on the same day as the one I just mentioned, on thursday, and I am hoping to see some growth. That will have been 12 days since I did the job. I will keep you informed my friend.
Kenny

[07Limited_WRX]

Kris,
I want to thank you for the compliments you made, I appreciate it. I feel the same way about this site and the interesting and informative threads that are here for us to read. I have this before, it is good to have others in the business who are so willing to help with advice for me and others, who are not as experienced in some of the, aspects of this business, like powerseeding with a slit seeder. Runner is a fine example of this, but there are others as well, which I mentioned in a past reply.
I was at one of the accounts that I did an overseeding job for on the 13th of June. I did some new growth in some spots, but not everywhere I overseeded. This was an overseeding of an existing lawn with some bare spots, (very hard & dry clay like dirt), which I aerated first. You know Kris maybe I am not putting the seed down heavy enough, I thought I did but maybe I should go alittle heavier next time. It called for 3 to 4 lbs per 1000 for overseeding, I cut in half because I went in the cross angles. Maybe it has been the hard rains we have had due to the thunder storms we have been having for the past 2 weeks with heavy down pours. I could have lost some seed due to wash out. What I need to achieve is the consistancy of evenly growing grass in all the areas I overseed. I will see the other lawn I did on the same day as the one I just mentioned, on thursday, and I am hoping to see some growth. That will have been 12 days since I did the job. I will keep you informed my friend.
Kenny



I would lean more towards rain wash or seed rot from it Kenny. You applied the seed as it says. Did you notice growth only in slits as I have and other's have mentioned?

[supturb89]

A seeder is much better than any aerator. Much higher germination rate...

Cut short, run over in 2 direction...make sure you calibration is correct on seed flow rate.

You can mix the seed in the hopper with a carrier....contact your local turf house when you purchase the seed. They will be ableto help.

Water 2 times a day to keep is DAMP so it germinates. Soil temp should be 70+ and it will come in nicely. Should take 10-14 days. I would get electronic timers for watering. It makes it very easy.

Let me know if you have anymore questions.

The Home Depots in Chattanooga don't have our seeders yet...but if you ask they can get them. We currently have them in Knoxville and Nashville.


Do you have any of your seeders in the Illinois Home Depot stores? The closest to me is in Marion, IL. I'm really wanting to use one for my fall overseeding.

[LawnSolutionsCP]

Your closest would be O'Fallon, IL

Home Depot rents the 6-hp and Scott's Outdoor Power rents and sells the 9-hp and the larger 30" models as well.

Scott's rents and will give credit off the purchase priced from your rents.

If you have a local rental store, show them our website and have them give us a call....they will most likely purchase one for their rental fleet.

[FIRESCOOBY]

Your closest would be O'Fallon, IL

Home Depot rents the 6-hp and Scott's Outdoor Power rents and sells the 9-hp and the larger 30" models as well.

Scott's rents and will give credit off the purchase priced from your rents.

If you have a local rental store, show them our website and have them give us a call....they will most likely purchase one for their rental fleet.

Are they available for rent anywhere in Georgia?

[07Limited_WRX]

Kris,
I want to thank you for the compliments you made, I appreciate it. I feel the same way about this site and the interesting and informative threads that are here for us to read. I have this before, it is good to have others in the business who are so willing to help with advice for me and others, who are not as experienced in some of the, aspects of this business, like powerseeding with a slit seeder. Runner is a fine example of this, but there are others as well, which I mentioned in a past reply.
I was at one of the accounts that I did an overseeding job for on the 13th of June. I did some new growth in some spots, but not everywhere I overseeded. This was an overseeding of an existing lawn with some bare spots, (very hard & dry clay like dirt), which I aerated first. You know Kris maybe I am not putting the seed down heavy enough, I thought I did but maybe I should go alittle heavier next time. It called for 3 to 4 lbs per 1000 for overseeding, I cut in half because I went in the cross angles. Maybe it has been the hard rains we have had due to the thunder storms we have been having for the past 2 weeks with heavy down pours. I could have lost some seed due to wash out. What I need to achieve is the consistancy of evenly growing grass in all the areas I overseed. I will see the other lawn I did on the same day as the one I just mentioned, on thursday, and I am hoping to see some growth. That will have been 12 days since I did the job. I will keep you informed my friend.
Kenny


Kenny-

Here is what I have gathered. These are my own perceptions from comparing my front and back yards, my business turf, and my neighbors two sections of turf that he did same day as I did my home. But wait....I think between you and Runner's PM'ing you may already know this stuff. Just kidding man. Just share your knowledge you or Runner on where I am incorrect here. I know you can PM on this site but don't see where. I'm on countless car forums. Don't think I have access on this one???

Anyways my front yard with all the pics: mistake one was razing it too low for an overseed. The areas that were cut to more around two inches had seedlings within a week. Part closest to my driveway that was cut down to dirt is just now slowly filling in. Still hard to tell what is dormant and new growth in this area but I know at least mine will fill in. The middle of my yard is a Bermuda Jungle with dormant and I'd say new seedling's.

To me the real key here is that pre-overseed cutting height, putting seed no deeper than 1/2", and truly light watering as far as the Bermuda and Rye go. Now in my back yard the seed was put down real deap as well but the pre-overseed cut was only 2 inches. Back is huge so after the first day of just moistening I would just put my little "water train" out and let it soak it down. Then maybe not water a day. Then soak it down again. Had seedling's within 1.5 weeks without really even focusing on the watering ritual like front.

My neighbor who cut a garden in half Friday night, then tilled it up and put down top soil has seedling's two days later. So I am convinced it has much to do with depth of seed and amount of sun reaching soil. He did not water other than Friday night's initial moistening because luckily we've finally gotten two days of good showers.

Don't know what advice you've gotten Kenny since I have not talked to you in a few but what I've said above seems to hold true in all those areas I told you I had to compare. Definitely don't put seed 2" + in the ground or it will take a month! I have seedling's of Bermuda coming up that have already branched off under the soil. Try not to go deeper than 1/2" like we were told. First few days of germination just keep it wet man but not wash out wet like your first 2 customers yards with all the rain. Also important is that pre-overseed cut. I will not go below 2" again! With the Rye and Bermuda just those first two days are crucial on the moist soil or I think you can even heavily wet once daily. Saw results both ways in less than a week and a half. When I do it in the fall this will be my approach.

I finally broke down yesterday since Runner went MIA on me at least and walked my bare spots off with spiked shoes and hand broadcast some more seed and then did my booster fertilizer as it was drizzling rain off and on and moistened it in for me. This seed is not deep so I would be really surprised not to see a lot of new seedlings by week's end. I just hope I can get something going under those trees (full shade) and along side heat pump (full sun). It is still pretty bare and also a natural wash off in heavy rain. I got so much rain the past two days and cannot even see my latest seed and fertilizer which is not deep. I will not water till soil becomes dry in a day or so.

Been 3 weeks since my front yard done. Until past two to three days rain has been non existent but it has been kept overwatered for Bermuda I believe. Or like my back yard should have just been watered heavy and a lot less oftern. My same experience with my fall Annual Rye. Here is progress made since last week which is not much:


Was told there is a powder for killing crabgrass only? Put down pre-emergent but it never fails.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1396.jpg

Dormant and maybe some new growth. Sure looks like new growth but starter fert could have sprung dormant into action here. Middle of yard.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1387.jpg

Strip alongside driveway that was bare dirt last week. Photos all taken today. Date stamp on camera I just noticed.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1385.jpg

Is this my annual rye still or what?

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1394.jpg

This is how it is coming out of ground in main yard instead of single blades. Could be dormant but I think seed was so deep it grew and branched as it came to surface?

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1393.jpg

This has me worried. Only thing to ever take over here was Annual Rye posted in begining of thread. Hope new seeding I did yesterday with spikes on will fill this in....

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1388.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1390.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1391.jpg

I have this moss on heat pump side of house. Which is natural run off. How can I get rid of it? Lime?

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1392.jpg

Hopefully it will all be like this in 3 more weeks or less. I have not even mowed in 3 weeks I did my pre-overseed cut so low.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1387.jpg



RUNNER some words of wisdom would be appreciated here. You just left me in the middle of it man...LOL. I think I know my mistakes though and have mentioned them above. Elaborate on any other factors you can foresee please. Let me know about once a year in fall for doing this as you said is all is necessary. How can I do Summer Bermuda and Winter Ann Rye at same time in fall? If you were including me in that statement?

KENNY please share your progress and let me know what you think about my opinions. I think you might have got washed away on those first two customers with so much rain.

Need feedback from your great site here guys?

-Kris

Support our troops!:usflag:

[07Limited_WRX]

Forgot all about sneaking her in!

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/kscbab/DSCN1377.jpg

[tamo]

I don't have a power seeder, but this is how I do my renovations.

1. Mow short
2. Dethatch with my bluebird power rake bought for $350.00 used from rent shop.
3.) Aerate with my bluebird 530 bought for $400.00 used from rental shop
4.) Topdress with 3-way soil (sandy loam, mulch, compost) and rake it into the plug holes and existing soil. This also breaks up the plugs as we rake in.
5.) Broadcast overseed, plus add lime and starter fert.
6.) Roll the lawn.

Nothing fancy, but we always get great results. If the customer isn't a regular mowing customer they usually are so impressed they sign up.

[07Limited_WRX]

[QUOTE=tamo;2399973]I don't have a power seeder, but this is how I do my renovations.

1. Mow short
2. Dethatch with my bluebird power rake bought for $350.00 used from rent shop.
3.) Aerate with my bluebird 530 bought for $400.00 used from rental shop
4.) Topdress with 3-way soil (sandy loam, mulch, compost) and rake it into the plug holes and existing soil. This also breaks up the plugs as we rake in.
5.) Broadcast overseed, plus add lime and starter fert.
6.) Roll the lawn.

Nothing fancy, but we always get great results. If the customer isn't a regular mowing customer they usually are so impressed they sign up.[/QUOT



Makes since. Pretty much how I did the annual rye in pics in the begining of the thread. I still would like to give the Revitalizer a chance in fall due to its simplicity. I believe I just made two mistakes. First off I mowed the lawn way too short. Second, I cut my slits way to deep for such a flat yard. I feel the first mistake was more costly than the second. Either way I still expected better results as did Kenny. I am going to keep your method on file though along with Runner's. I have no doubt your method would work very very well. It is a little more labor intensive though for a man that works six days a week and has to do this all on a Saturday night and Sunday afternoon.

[rcreech]

I don't have a power seeder, but this is how I do my renovations.

1. Mow short
2. Dethatch with my bluebird power rake bought for $350.00 used from rent shop.
3.) Aerate with my bluebird 530 bought for $400.00 used from rental shop
4.) Topdress with 3-way soil (sandy loam, mulch, compost) and rake it into the plug holes and existing soil. This also breaks up the plugs as we rake in.
5.) Broadcast overseed, plus add lime and starter fert.
6.) Roll the lawn.

Nothing fancy, but we always get great results. If the customer isn't a regular mowing customer they usually are so impressed they sign up.

I am sure this will work great...but it is too many passes and way too much time for me.

I wouldn't make any money going this route!

I can go into an acre and be done in an hour seeding 2 directions and have an awesome lawn! Why go through all the hassle of doing all of this when don't need to?

Just curious!

[tamo]

I am sure this will work great...but it is too many passes and way too much time for me.

I wouldn't make any money going this route!

I can go into an acre and be done in an hour seeding 2 directions and have an awesome lawn! Why go through all the hassle of doing all of this when don't need to?

Just curious!

I don't think of it as a hassle. I do all of those steps, but I charge for them too. I'm in an urban area so almost all of the lawns I do are .10 acres or less, tiny lots. On average I get about $550.00 to $600.00 per job. It usually only takes an hour, or 1.5 hrs. tops if the terrain is tight.

I also think it helps my success in selling the renovation. I can outline all of these steps and people feel they are getting a lot of benefit for their money.

If you're thatching the lawn anyway with a power seeder and have to rake up the thatch and then go back again with the seed, I don't see how broadcasting the seed takes that much longer.

I guess everyone's got their own way and if it works for you then great. I only spent $750.00 bucks total on an aerator and a thatcher. I made that back my first day with it and have been making money ever since.

[07Limited_WRX]

I don't have a power seeder, but this is how I do my renovations.

1. Mow short
2. De thatch with my bluebird power rake bought for $350.00 used from rent shop.
3.) Aerate with my bluebird 530 bought for $400.00 used from rental shop
4.) Topdress with 3-way soil (sandy loam, mulch, compost) and rake it into the plug holes and existing soil. This also breaks up the plugs as we rake in.
5.) Broadcast overseed, plus add lime and starter fert.
6.) Roll the lawn.

Nothing fancy, but we always get great results. If the customer isn't a regular mowing customer they usually are so impressed they sign up.



Tamo-

Given pics of the lack of turf along my driveway and the side of my house with heat pump, what would you recommend I do to obtain Bermuda in these areas?

Three weeks after I first power seeded the Bermuda, too deep IMO, entire yard was boosted with starter fertilizer and lightly broadcast seeded, heavy in the aforementioned areas. Seed was simply broadcast on top of what the power seeder had left of my soil, Annual Rye die off, and Dormant Bermuda three weeks later. Have since kept soil moist.

After thinking about what you're saying I was thinking lime and a 3 way soil over the seed from Sunday in the bare spots...more seed...birds love it? I'd like to rake in lightly but would hate to tear up the small amount of 3 week growth from power seeder.

BTW, you may have to go back through the thread to see pic but on opposite side of drive where it was power seeded the same but pre mow only 2" instead of 1/2" or less like front I got great growth. Also less water over there. But there is a steep hill on other side of garage. Nothing has ever grown here besides moss and weeds with Bermuda at the bottom. This is where I saw the earliest seedlings.:confused:Again less water and sun. However, it is now like it has reached it's peak and it's growth plateaued in whatever the last pic is I posted of it?

I've got dormant Bermuda that will fill in over summer, but with it will come more crabgrass and I would like to get some growth in bare spots now and they're just too large for plugging right? Thank you for any advice.

-Kris

[07Limited_WRX]

Bump....I'm still in same position as my last posted photos and have not mowed my Bermuda once yet and it's mid July. Plug or do something like Tamo is saying? On side of house by heat pump is bare spot about 15' x 40'. Help please?

[Rayholio]

You need to aerate it.. CERTAINLY won't hurt anything.. Also, looking at the last pic.. it's an aweful lot of shade.. is the bermuda doing better in the full sun areas of the lawn? if so, you should hire a tree company to prune the trees to allow more sun down.. or change to a different variety of grass in those areas...

it also looks like the 'death and distruction' ends at the neighbors lawn.. Was this chemical damage?