Watering?

[Pastaboy62]

I mow this lawn that uses Natural Lawn. The lady that does the work, is advising the homeowner not to water their lawn. She says that it is tough love and that the roots, have to grow. They have a fully operational sprinkler system. When they are allowed to water it, which is after june 1st, it is to be only 1 day a week for an hour. The lawn now is pretty bad, it could be using water. Is this method of watering practical? I have never heard of it and was wondering if you have...

[DeepGreenLawn]

Yes! The roots will start digging down looking for more water. Give it a minute, this will give you much deeper healthier roots and the lawn will look much better in the long run when drought conditions may set in or other climate problems.

That is the proper way, deep and infrequent. Other wise you get shallow unhealthy roots.

[treegal1]

yes thats the way, wait till the grass is just a little stressed, the weed seeds need water in the top 1 inch to get going. water deep and the top layer will dry out almost completely, killing all the little tender sprouts. and the roots in the sod should be able to go down to the 10 inch or deeper mark, where the water is.

thank that person that told you that, they where doing you a GOOD.

and the law here is one day per week 30 minutes per zone

[DeepGreenLawn]

just makes you feel good when you hear people giving out good information for a change.

[ICT Bill]

TG I'm sure you have this sort of soil where you are too. The Jersey shore soil is very sandy and does not hold water well at all. basically homes built on
sand dunes

Is this still the best advice?

Here where I am the clay soils hold water pretty well

[DeepGreenLawn]

that probably is where the water when it shows stress, but still water deeply

Lets see how I did

[treegal1]

you got it, after a while the grass will adapt, it also helps if its 4 inches tall to give its self shade

[Pastaboy62]

Wow, thanks for the help guys

[DeepGreenLawn]

whoa, 4 in? what kind of grass you got down there anyway? I know I am probably the only one with bermuda that posts on here but don't forget that there are other lawns that people deal with too. Bermuda should be about 2 inches max, I like to keep it shorter, the more you cut it the better it fills in.

[treegal1]

St Augustine floratam type 2E or palmetto, with some Sapphire.

[Elden]

Nothing like a 4" thick St. Aug lawn. It's a beautiful thing.

[DeepGreenLawn]

Isn't St Augustine crabgrass?

[ICT Bill]

It depends on whether you are in marketing or in the field

I was on the most beautiful garden in Charleston SC, it was a near the beach and all st augustine, SWEET is all I can say

It was difficult for the high heels though

No not my high heels

:walking::walking::walking::walking::walking:

[DeepGreenLawn]

So, over there its St. Augustine, here it's the dreaded crabgrass. Interesting how different areas look at things in different ways.

[JDUtah]

Bermuda is the 'crabgrass' out here. Kentucky Bluegrass and finer Fescu's are the lawn of choice.

[DeepGreenLawn]

I know what you mean, we get any bermuda in a fescue lawn and it's over. In a few years the bermuda becomes the lawn and the fescue is the weed.

[Kiril]

Now now. :nono:

I believe I have posted this before, but will again.

Roots do NOT seek out water!

A roots tendency for downward growth is known as gravitropism and is not related to water in any way, shape, or form.

If your effective root zone is 4 inches deep, and you let the soils dry below your allowable depletion and on to PWP (permanent wilting point) at that depth (assuming no diurnal water movement due to capillary action), the turf will die.

[treegal1]

really? tell me more , we are under the impression that they will seek out water to some extent, however this is only observation, mostly from trees that have found water and had to be removed. but you got my interest up ??? i am very curios to ask now, why does everyone say to water deep and the grass will grow deeper roots???

thanks in advance

[Daner]

Now now. :nono:

I believe I have posted this before, but will again.

Roots do NOT seek out water!

A roots tendency for downward growth is known as gravitropism and is not related to water in any way, shape, or form.

If your effective root zone is 4 inches deep, and you let the soils dry below your allowable depletion and on to PWP (permanent wilting point) at that depth (assuming no diurnal water movement due to capillary action), the turf will die.

Kiril...In my books your absolutely right...but In any event no shallow watering

[Smallaxe]

There is this photo that keeps popping up. It has even popped up in this forum.
The grass is about 4" longs and the roots a - like 8" - or whatever.

If Kiril convinces this guy that turf has roots that only reach a few inches into the soil b4 the PWP, then I will question both.

Different soils perform differently. 1" per week or - 1/3" three time a week. Depends -- doesn't it?

Can grasses possibly perform outside the box??????

[DeepGreenLawn]

Plants seek out sunlight why not water?

[Kiril]

I think you guys are missing the point. This is a very common misconception with plant roots and water. There may be exceptions to this behavior (air plants), but the vast majority of the time it will hold.

Among other things, roots (and plants) need water to grow. Put your typical landscape plant in a dry soil, provide water at say a 10" depth (beyond the current root system and any capillary action), what do you think will happen?

a) the plant will die

b) the plant will somehow function without water, sending roots down to this 10" deep source of water

My vote is -> the plant will die.

Bottom line for landscapers to take away from this, roots/plants need water to grow. Take the water away, they either go dormant or die.

If you want to consider the why of deep watering, ask yourself how do my soils dry between rain/irrigation events and how can/does this lead to deeper rooting?

[DeepGreenLawn]

We aren't saying not to water, I think what the deep watering does is the roots find more and more water deeper and deeper. If you water shallow the roots wont have any water below them and have no reason to go any deeper. I'm sure that the plant itself will make a difference as well. I don't see an azalea having extremely deep roots, they just don't grow that way. I'm not sure I could get bermuda to do it, but fescue seems to be more on the side of deeper roots.

[Kiril]

We aren't saying not to water, I think what the deep watering does is the roots find more and more water deeper and deeper.

The above is a bit different than saying roots search out water. There have been some studies concerning plant root response to hydrologic gradients (hydrotropism), however this phenomena is not very well understood nor is it currently believed to play a significant role with regard to root growth in soils to my knowledge.

In short, the roots are not growing deeper in search of water, but instead because water (and other factors that promote root growth) are present in the soil at that depth.

From an irrigation perspective, if you want the most efficient use of your water, then you should only target a depth that represents the current effective root zone, or an effective root zone that can be reasonably achieved with the plant(s) being irrigated.

[Smallaxe]

As the surface dries out the roots at 1in depth continue to grow. As the top inch of soil dries the 2 inch root zone will to grow. Baby steps.

What I would like to know is can kbg beat the 4" root depth barrier as displayed in that phanton photo?

[DeepGreenLawn]

In short, the roots are not growing deeper in search of water, but instead because water (and other factors that promote root growth) are present in the soil at that depth.

yeah, that was basically what I was trying to say

[muddstopper]

Roots will continue to grow downward and outward as long as favoritable conditions are encountered to encourage root growth. Water is but one of those conditions. Even the mighty oak tree gets about 90% of it nutrients from the areobic zone of the zone. This zone is usually limited to the top few inches of the soil because of lack of air space or compaction issues. Roots will stop growing once they reach a resistance of approx 300psi. At this point they will send out another shoot where the least resistance and maxmium nutrient availability is encountered. To say roots grow downward in search of water is only partially correct. The purpose of the plant roots is to supply the plant with moisture as well as nutrients and to be a warehouse for storeing food generated by the leafs. The more food a plant can generate, the bigger the roots and the plant. Roots will grow around in a circle as long as adequate moisture and nutrients are present. This can be evidenced by potted plants that are planted in holes that have been heavly admended by mixing soil with compost or fertilizers before the plant is set in the hole. The roots will grow around that hole picking up nutrients until the point that they actually girdle the tree or shrub. The same senerio as if the plant was left in the pot to long before transplanting. Without water or nutrients the roots will not continue to grow, but they will continue to grow as long as water and "available" nutrients are present. Nutrients are made available by plant root exudates as well as relationships with benefitual microbial life forms. More of these microbes can be found in the areobic zone in the soil than in the anerobic zone.

As for azaleas not haveing deep roots, come to the mountains my friend and try to dig up the wild ones. Bermuda roots can go 12ft or more in depth and I have personaly found fescue roots over 2 ft in depth. The density of those deep roots will rely more on the soil structure than moisture content, but I think it would be safe to say that if there isnt any moisture, you probably wont find many roots.

[muddstopper]

.

In short, the roots are not growing deeper in search of water, but instead because water (and other factors that promote root growth) are present in the soil at that depth.



Wish I had read this post before I posted, Kirils version is much shorter than mine and I agree with his statement.

[DeepGreenLawn]

yeah, but yours was a lot more informative. Where do you get all your smarts from anyways?

Bermuda roots going 12'? Are we talking about the same grass? I have never seen them more than an inch, maybe two. But then again, that whole compaction thing is a big issue here with our clay. I can't dig more than a foot let alone expect roots to go that far. I tried to dig in my parents back yard the other day and got about 4 inches and it was litterally like trying to dig into a rock. This is one reason why I want to do the whole 2X2 space with 6" of compost to see how it works here.

[Smallaxe]

So DG are you doing anything in renovations for your clay soils? Tilling, ammending with sand, along with OM? Coring, topdressing? That sort of thing?

[DeepGreenLawn]

Ummm, no, other than just your usual aeration I am still working on that stuff and doing my research. I am still looking for a good compost. I plan on implementing that into my fall over seeding and aeration. Right now I am just trying to convince people to go organic. The idea is to get them off synthetics and into organics the first year just with the ferts. After that I will start educating people more and more about the benefits about topdressing and all that good stuff. This is still a pretty new idea here in my area. I have only found one other company that services in my city and then there are a few others that service in the more upper class cities I work in, 90% of the people I talk to have never even considered organics if they have even heard of it.

I figure my best bet to get things going right here at the beginning are to take baby steps with everyone. I have a few customers that I believe I can get going early but for the most part I have to earn everyones trust. Throwing expensive services at them right away I believe will just push them back over the edge to synthetics again.

What do you think?

[Smallaxe]

I agree you are on the right track. Finding good compost will be the key to affordable topdressings. You can't do 6" all at once of topdresssing grass, but multiple applications throughout the season may help.

When I was looking at the bagged compostted manure in Florida this last January I noticed that it was a high percentage of sand, for about $2/bag. Everything is sand there :( That may be good for addition to clay soils after aeration. [we pay less than $1.50/bag here of straight compost here. i.e. it is not cut with sand]

Meals are simply compost in the raw so they will also contribute to soil structure in the long run. What are you using as organic ferts?

We have built up some of our clays to be almost black with OM and soil texture that doesn't even seem to be clay. Have you come across any success stories in your lawns and gardens regarding 'good clay'?

[DeepGreenLawn]

$1.50 a bag? I seem to remember being priced a lot more than that. One day I plan on having my own compost. The 6" was just something I was going to do on my own lawn. I plan on doing topdress at about .25-.5" thick. It will take a little longer but the customers should stay happy. The problem with the compost I have found so far is that it has a lot larger stuff like peanut shells in it. They also mix it 50/50 with sand for a "topdress" but it just seems that those shells would stick around a while and I don't want them sitting on my lawn let alone my customers.

I haven't had any luck with our clay here. There are just a few of my customers that new enough to put it down over their bare spots in their fescue lawns. I have found that if I can get straight clay I'm doing good. These contractors don't give a crap about what they do when it comes to the lawn. A lot of times it is filled with not only rocks but trash from the job site. I couldn't tell you how much trash I pulled out of my flower beds when I planted in them the first time. I still pulled out a couple water bottles this year. And there had to be a blob of caulking about 3'X4' that I still havent found the end of since it got so far under my lawn and I didn't feel like taking up the grass to get the rest out. I am sure I will do that one day.

[Smallaxe]

Yes, there were definately higher priced bags in the past here as well. This year we are able to find more reasonably priced stuff when shopping around. It all appears to be of equal quality.

Good job trying to create your own compost. I was noticing the other threads in relation to that. Can you add grass clippings and recook it? Break down those last bits?
If you once get that into a usable form that is cost/time effective you should be in like Flint.

I was just cleaning up and transplanting some juniper blue rug today and noticed how the clay they added to a terraced sand hill has developed over the past 10 years. Fortunately it was not put down with fabric so I was able to till in the wood chip mulch when the HO decided to break up the weeds' root mass.

In only 10 years this tilling and reinstalling various mulches had turned this clay [suitable for pottery] into some fairly decent friable soil. The only sand that may have mixed in is from underneath. Possibly the tilling and worms.

Have you ever come across the 'old timers' that have managed to turn GA clay into great soil? I would imagine that there are processes that proved successful b4 the introduction of syn.ferts.

I learned more from the 'old timers' here in the rural midwest than I could ever learn from University alone. The only bad judgement I made was not acknowledging the 'place' for syn.ferts. 25 years ago, in the commercial marketplace.

Everything I've heard about Georgia clay and the southern grasses makes me think that there must have been a strategy implemented prior to 60 years ago that made it work. An intersting side note to organics in GA would be what had been done in the past. Replacing it completely with what is the modern way , may not be the 'best' way.

I hope to learn how to deal with the Florida sand, by moving about and talking to people who's families have been working the ground for generations. From what I've seen, so far, the LCO's in that neighborhood are not accomplishing as much in lawns, as the dairy farmers have been doing in their pastures.

Constuction sites? Oh yeah, expect anything and everything. What irritates me most is the remodeling that trashes what I have built over the course of several years in an established homestead. Job security :)

[DeepGreenLawn]

Flower beds and the soil under the lawn are two different things. A lot of people have since enough to till in some top soil if nothing else to help break up the clay that we have to deal with.

Bermuda does pretty good growing on top of the clay, I guess the soil that comes with the sod is sufficient enough that it can last off of that and what roots can get into the clay for a while. I constantly am seeing more and more lawns though where customers would have a lawn service such as TG but still have barer areas in the lawn. The lawn looks healthy enough as it is but there are aways those thinner areas. What is up with that? Not enough OM for the lawn to feed off of you think? Thats the only thing I can figure. It doesn't look like any kind of disease. From the side it looks OK, but you get on a terrace where you can look down at it and you can definitely tell a difference.

I met with a new customer I picked up yesterday and was pretty impressed. Not only was his lawn beautiful, I had been eyeing it for a while, he's next door to an existing customer, but he had since enough to throw down compost on those "bare" areas I had mentioned. Like I said, I was impressed.

Again though, by the time I got there it didn't look like compost it looked like mulch rather with all the big wood chips left over. Is this common or do they just need to screen it some more?

I will have to try and find me an old farmer somewhere to talk with. I think I might know of a place to find one or two down the street from my fire station. There are some old timers there.

[Kiril]

The lawn looks healthy enough as it is but there are aways those thinner areas. What is up with that?

If it is similar to what I see out here, it is an issue with water and soil compaction.

[DeepGreenLawn]

ahh I see said the blind man as he picked up the hammer and saw.

The watering has been plenty just with all the rain we have been getting I would think. Unlike the drought from last year it has been pretty steady. So, I guess the answer to the question is aerate aerate aerate. Which then means $$$ $$$ $$$! I love it. It is so nice owning my own aerator, I couldn't imagine having to rent one every time it was needed.

[Smallaxe]

I was thinking the same thing as Kiril. If you go with aeration try to get a bunch of om into the holes along with topdressing at that time. I would use the bagged sandy mix myself.

Yes the soil under lawn is different than in gardens, but the ammendments that brought garden soils past the mineral clay to proper soil, is what you want to see about. It can work as topdressing and worked in by earthworms. I am really curious if mixing in some sort of sand was a part of the system in GA.

[Smallaxe]

BTW, if compost has woodchips in it. Find another source for lawns.

[DeepGreenLawn]

That is what I was thinking. I have yet to find a good soil like compost, everything I have seen or asked about had the chips. There is one place I talked to but they were priced through the roof.

Sand is always being used as a topdress to help level out the lawn. That way the reel mowers can be used and the lawn can be kept like a true rug. I don't know that it is used the same as just to get OM into the soil. I guess it would help break up the clay and soften it up some. Other than that I never have understood why sand was such a hot commodity for this puprose.