fertilizer questions

[formerscrub]

:blob3: Hello everyone.
Several of my customers have aproached me about applying some fertilizer on their lawns (along with weed control during the year) My question is 1. what can i expect to charge them per application.(I live in south west Florida)
2. How many times during the year can it be applied (I think its 4x)
3. Ive seen lesco brand at Home Depot but is it the same quality as at the lesco businesses.
I just figured I'd ask someone who knows before making any commitments

[strickdad]

yes the quailty is the same as what you get at lesco. but you will pay more for it than you do at lesco (or at least we do) by straight from lesco if you can. we usaually charge the same for a application, that we do to mow it. i dont know if price structure is correct or not but it works for us.

[Ric]

Formerscrub

Without a Lawn And ornamental pesticide license you can not apply weed control or you can get a $5,000.00 fine from the state of Florida. You can apply fertilizer and charge for it.

As far as Lesco and Home Depot I have bought Lesco Products from Home depot cheaper than I have bought the same blend from Lesco. Last January I purchased Two tons of fert from Lesco only to find out one of my customer purchased one bag of the same blend from lesco for .50 a bag cheaper than I bought 80 bags for. I took his invoice back to Lesco and got no satisfaction. Needless to say I am not a big fan of Lesco.

What part of S.W. Florida are you in?? If you are close enough maybe I can do your chem applys and you can make a %. Or I could hook you up with someone in your area.

[strickdad]

sorry to here that ric, i cant beleave they wouldnt lower there price. (i would be ticked too.) for the most part the lesco dealer here is a dollar or two cheaper (per bag) for fert. than H.D.

[Ric]

Strickdad

I have had a long running battle with Lesco prices. 15 years ago everything on my trailer was green from mowers to blowers. Now I only use them like a 7-11 and have gone to bulk supplier. They have good products That I will not denine. But Talstar at $224 an gallon picked up for cash and Talstar delievered for $164 a gallon and billed 30 days net is only one of many price problems I have with them. There fert is real clean but plants can't tell the differents they live in dirt. I have a dust mask and I am more than willing to wear it. We should use a dust mask when spreading fert anyway. Here in Fla. Lesco is on every corner in every town because the green industry is very big here. Lesco has done very good here with the many novice in the industry. They try a make it easy for them so they will not seek education and use only Lesco products. I would like to think I have tried to stay informed and have continued the my education. I was born at night Lesco but unlike your other customers it was not last night. Sorry everyone that I had to go off but it makes me feel better now. I know a lot of you believe in Lesco and maybe in your area Lesco treats you right on the price. I really do not need any posts on how great Lesco is. You can not change my mind about this only Lesco can by giving me competive prices. I am not knocking there products only there prices to me.

[perma-green]

Originally posted by formerscrub
:blob3: Hello everyone.
Several of my customers have aproached me about applying some fertilizer on their lawns (along with weed control during the year) My question is 1. what can i expect to charge them per application.(I live in south west Florida)
2. How many times during the year can it be applied (I think its 4x)
3. Ive seen lesco brand at Home Depot but is it the same quality as at the lesco businesses.
I just figured I'd ask someone who knows before making any ommitments
i would say in florida at least 5 applications a year, inthe north we do minimum 4,some are doing 5 or 6...rick

[Ric]

Formerscrub

"Florida Lawn Hand Book" Published by University of Florida University Press of Florida.

This the bible of lawn care in Florida. You may purchase it from your county extention agent or the U of F and even Home Depot for 19.95. Or order from Amzon.com for 14.95.


Perma-green

This book by the U of F recomemds 4 fertilization per year. True Green Chem Lawn recomends 8 fertilization per year. Who is Right??????????????????????????????????????????????????

[ohiolawnguy]

This book by the U of F recomemds 4 fertilization per year. True Green Chem Lawn recomends 8 fertilization per year. Who is Right??????????????????????????????????????????????????



ric i may have some insight to that very question. although some golf course do actually fertilize this often, it isnt absolutely necessary. here in ohio trugreen does the same thing. out of 8 applications in a given year,
5 are general fertilizer applications, and 3 are fertilizer and pesticide combination applications. then, they charge the customer as though they were receiving 2 separate applications, even though it is within the same application. they could just use the pesticide to treat the lawn, but their philosophy is that if they use a combo application, they can charge for the fertilization also. if confronted, tru green will deny this by stating that it is necessary for continual applications to promote root growth,etc. etc. etc. (after saying this ill probably get a cease and desist order or slander suit from trugreen chemlawn. oh well they know who i am aleady anyways.)

[Ric]

OhioLawnguy


This was a loaded question. WHICH IS RIGHT and why?

[tremor]

I have been with LESCO for 11+ years. In our indusrty for 20+ years on the chemical side anyway. Cutting for hire on & off since elementary shcool.
I'm going to tread very lightly here for obvious reasons.
HomeDepot's offering of LESCO products come off the same production lines. The number of items they offer is limited.
Prices at HD are set by the store manager with help from their regional management. They can vary significantly on a store by store basis.
LESCO products at LESCO Service Centers are based on a customers individual sales history. Buy more, pay less. And that's as far as I go on someone elses website.
Formerscrub,
See if you can solicit an estimate from a few of the big boys in your area. They won't know your sister-in-laws house from a hole in the wall. You can use that data as well as your own collected historical cost data to decide where you need to be. Measure the lawns & base prices on square footage. Try not to beat the biggies on price. The biggies are about $39.95 - $49.95 as a minimum per application charge for the first 4000 suare feet here in New England. You're going to see the lawns you treat more often. You're expenses are probably higher too, so GET PAID FOR WHAT YOUR WORTH. Driving down the market prices will get you nowhere fast, & will hurt the market for everyone.
The reason for the number of treatments is one of business economics combined with agronomics. I've got customers who charge a flat monthly fee & treat for whatever needs treating. I've got guys who also keep it really simple & offer a basic weed&feed service (4 or 5 apps) with lime (sulfur in your case) & grub control as options (all chargeable up to 7 or 8 chargeable treatments)
In Fla, you guys have some cool stuff like fire ants you can offer chargeable treatments for, But try not to offer too much until you're comfortable with where it's going. Keep it simple in the beginning.
GET YOUR LICENSE. You may want to check with the local trade/turf organizations. They probably offer or sponsor a course that will help you. You can also get to know folks who have the same goals as yourself & may be able to guide you with their own experiences.
Use suppliers (yeah, like LESCO & others) as a resource. A good supplier will want to be a part of your success. It's the best way for them to grow their own business becuase you'll share your success stories with others down the road. Chances are pretty good that their sales people have plenty of industry background. But this obviously varies by location.
Local colleges probably offer adult continuing education courses. Look to the schools with the stronger turf science & agronomy schools.
Good Luck
Steve

[ohiolawnguy]

sorry about that response to the loaded question ric. just trying to voice my theory and opnion is all. :) ive been in heated discussions with trugreen on the phone many times concerning their business practices, and have called the ohio department of agriculture on them before also. ohio law requires that you clean off all driveways and sidewalks after an application which trugreen tends not to do. also there is supposed to be a date, time, and code for what they have applied to the yard. occasionally they dont do that also. i have told those customers who have situations like this arise that i shouldnt be the one to clean up after their mess, and that we should be the ones who do the applications, or we would no longer maintain their property. i dont have a vendetta against trugreen chemlawn(though that may appear to be the case), rather i feel that the law should be applied equally to all companies. 85% of our customers who receive fertilization now have us do the applications. the remaining 15% receive service which i feel is done properly, and to which i have no complaints about. this would include some trugreen contracts, and a couple other companies also. sorry for the long post. just trying to explain my reasoning, and thoughts.

[Ric]

Steve

you have as usual offered some good advise. However you do not know Fla. Laws, Horticulture and Soil. As I do not know New England Law, Horticulture and Soil.

First I would like to state that Lesco has very good products and also include the fact that Lesco helped me before I went back to college. I still buy some products from Lesco. I even took one of Lesco's blends with small changes to another manufacture as a custom blend for me. They liked it so much that it is now a standard blend for them. I am on my third Lesco motorized spreader and would have no other. My gripe is price only.

Second FLORIDA LAWS You did not read what has already posted about apply licenses. Here in the bug capital It is hard to get a apply license and takes a minim of three years working under a certified applicator. The Florida apply test is one of the hardest in the nation. Florida can and will give $ 5000.00 fines for unlicensed pest control. I would hate to have someone read this thread and end up with a fine. Grub control and Weed And Feed are PESTICIDES. FIRE ANTS ARE NOT COOL THEY ARE A PEST THAT DOES MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF DAMAGE EACH YEAR. Control of fire ants by PhD entomologist is difficult at best. Let alone some novice. Other threads we have talked about Florida laws on application so I do not want to open an old sore. I do not make the laws I only follow them. Many suppliers of chemicals who are on every corner not only sell to unlicensed people they push the idea of unlicensed pest control. The local Ag inspector has posted the laws in these stores because of this.

Third I would like to refer you to a thread about sulfur that I replied to. What I did not say was Dr Lee Bendt of the U of Michigan did a study proving that sulfur causes black layer in soil by causing an anaerobic condition. Since high pH soil is the rule in coastal Florida soils, we have found that ammonium sulfate does a better job of controlling pH. It is this fact that gave me a competitive edge and I am letting out my secrets.


STEVE AM I JUMPING ON YOU??? YOU BET YA.! Your job is to sell chemicals and you must defend them and there use. Your own words state that chemical suppliers have a interest in our success in selling application, because it is there success in selling more chemicals. It is my job to design, install and maintain health landscape. It is my moral duty to do this without contaminating the environment with excessive chemicals. It is also cost effective for me not to apply more chemicals than needed. Steve I have respected your posts in the past and learned from them. However you need to study Florida Law, horticulture and soil before giving advise on fire ants and other thing you know nothing about. Here in Florida we have a very popular bumper sticker it reads "We don't care how you did it up North". Please Steve don't be a dam Yankee just a Yankee I do respect you and feel you have given some very informative information in the past. We have clashed on more than one post and I would like to think this is good because it gets people thinking. Advanced education teaches us how to find answers and work through problems, not the answers.


Ohiolawnguy

Loaded question because 4 or 8 apply per year can in fact be equal depending on the amount being applied. As you stated golf courses do many. They do them light and regular which is what the experts tell us. What I hate to admit is Truegreen/chemlawn has a very good program in theory. They in fact have people who have forgotten more than I could ever hope to know. Truegreen was the first to stop using Daconil because it causes cancer and I forget where I read that. There two hose gun is ahead of its time and will become an industry standard in years to come. We should not knock there system but learn from it. The problem comes because of the man on the end of the hose does not have the knowledge to make there theory work. They are in fact a marketing company and sales driven. The middle management loses sight of the company application theory and therefore over apply chemicals to try and keep customer. The general public will accept that they are a growing animal and need time to heel or grow, but they think there landscape should be instant. No I never worked for TG/CL, I have taken many customer away from them. But this appears not to effect them because there style is to lose 4 and pick up 5.

[tremor]

Ric,
Good points, every one of them.
I'm in CT where we do have the most difficult test for a pesticide lic. in the country (CO. is a close 2nd). But as such, we don't have an apprenticeship program like it sounds as if FL does. I also operate in NY, where just such a 3 year apprenticeship program is in effect. However, if you have worked for someone else, using pesticides, the prior employer can write a letter for you thereby waiving the 3 year wait. Obviously the laws vary by state. But my post said in all caps to GET A LICENSE. By whatever means isn't an issue to me. If it takes 3 years, so be it.
Fire Ants, yeah, your correct, not cool when you get stung. I did once. By cool, I only meant to imply that some of the pest & agronomic challenges offer up some interesting and potentially profitable opportunites for Floridians who choose to capitolize on them. Most of our northern pests in turf are fairly predictable & boring by comparison. I do NOT advocate the indescriminant use of ANY pesticides for ANY pest ANYwhere. EVER. I've made this my lifes work and don't want any yahoos screwing up my field of work to simplify their life. There is no excuse for not knowing how to scout for & appropriately spot treat any pest as opposed to the old "blanket spray & run" approach of days past. Sure, guys like me sold more chemicals. But for how long would that have lasted? Those days are gone. I for one am glad to see IPM. Anything that raises the bar of professionalism is good for our industry.
Prices are directly attached to cost. It's no different for us than it is for you. If we occupy a 5,000 sq. ft. bulding & fill it with 2-3 payrolled employees, a forklift, & all the stuff that lawn care professionals need, someones going to pay for it. 15 years ago, all we did was make fertilizer & ship it on a truck. When customers said they wanted forklifts on the trucks, we got them first (around here anyway). When smaller applicators wanted to get in on the deal, we decidied to pay for their warehouses for them & the Service Center was born (in Florida). If we were willing to raise the bar of professionalism as high as we did, why can't we get paid for it? Locally, a 5,000 st ft building leases for (@ $11.00/sq ft) $55,000 per year. Electricity, heat, phone,insurance, 2-3 people, etc. You get the picture. If a lawncare applicator wants to save $200,000 per year on these expenses by having someone else pay them instead, they now can. I know guys who have rented out their old warehouse & now run their business from a home office, a leased Eagle trailer for storage, & a surface lot for parking trucks. Eagle bill- $75.00/month. Rent for surface lot $200-300/month. Home office, mine is a spare bedroom we didn't use 3 times a year. Clearly it doesn't work that way for everyone. But it does seem to satisfy the majority. We still drop ship fertilizer in a lot of markets too. That's my job today. Rural areas may not need a store, but our customers are just as valuble to us there.
I have to sell against AG Grade competitors every day. Some don't even have 1 screen in their plants. We use 3 at our local plant. It takes a little longer to blend this way, but thats what folks have come to expect. The bar is high. I like it high. It helps weed out the riff-raff.
It wouldn't be ethical for me to get further into this matter in this format, but I'll help any customer if I can. Drop an email to me with your business phone # and a good time for me to call & I'll see what I can do for you.
Thanks for keeping on my toes. It's good for everyone!
All 4 now,
Steve

sls247@lesco.com

[Ric]

Steve


I send you an E Mail and have not heard anything from you. I even gave you my 800# so the call wouldn't cost you a penny. This only reforces my feeling that Lesco does not want My business. So I guess I will stay with my present suppliers who not only return my calls but give me prices that are lower. Talstar T & O is Talstar T & O and I am one of a few who read and understand a fert label

[Nebraska]

Here's another % question....

Is there a rule of thumb that anyone uses as to what the maximum % of fertilizer revenue should be the actual product cost when pricing Fertilizer Applications?

[tremor]

Sorry Ric, Just got back from our sales meeting.
Call you When I'm back in the office either Fri or Mon. Hope you're in.

Hey Nebraska,
Probably not possible since "bag cost" to treat, let's say a 1/4 acre lawn (11,000 sq ft), could run cheap for a fall fert in large quantitites, for maybe $7-8.00 assuming you don't get fancy. Now if you charged the customer $75.00 per application (going rate here a couple years ago) you'd then equate the cost vs. sell price ratio at 1:10 or 10%=cost.
However what happens when you have to apply a bag that costs $16.00? The customer then gets billed $160.00? That pretty pricey.
What about that $40.00 bag of Merit+Fertilizer? You'd probably have a hard time collecting $400.00 for a 1/4 acre lawn. Most of the guys I know would still use the $40 bag. But they'll leave a $75.00 bill for the summer service & at least $90.00 for the grub control or $165.00 total. That's only a 1:4 ratio I know, but you have the economy of only one trip over the lawn so.....
Most people average all their costs over the entire season, including overhead, profit, service -call potential, etc, then provide an "averaged" per application price per treatment.
This seems to work well since most consumers want the price per service to be consistent but your "per bag/round expenses" can almost never be the same. You therefore have some "slim profit" & some "fat profit" rounds through out the year.
Most "big-turf" applications (15+ acres?) should probably be priced "by the round" at fair yet different prices. This protects you from the big grass cutting subcontractor who has you do the harder & costlier spring work,then cancels, then applies straight fert all the rest of the year. Often at your price but almost no cost. These characters are in every market of the country. I hope none of you ever get raped by any of them.

Almost done with these emails, then bed.
Steve

[Nebraska]

Steve,

Understand that the cost will differ with the application...Our most expensive application is the Mach II with fert and we bill it out as two applications (for example our 6 step program is actually 6 steps but is done in 5 applications/visits) this worked well the first year we tried it (last year) with only one customer upset. That customer was only upset because they did not read the program that states the 3rd and 4th step are a combined application (billed 2x the normal application rate in the month of July). Anyway back to my original question...

At the end of the year a contractor divides the amount of actual money spent on fertilizer by total revenue generated from fertilizing and come up with x%. What is an average number for this figure to be? Anybody?

[Russ]

Good Question! But, I dont think your going to get a good answer on this form or any other. There are just too many variables. Product cost are different region to region, diff. for the solo guy with 250 customers than for the guy with a couple of RT's and 1,500 customers, diff. for the guy using drop shipments from a ag. supplier and the guy using the 7-11, just to start. Retail prices are going to be dif. in CAl. Fla. NJ. Ind. and very likely diff. in every city and by demografiics of that city. What's the average?, good question!, but I'm not sure there will ever be a good acurate answer. Just my .03 cents per square foot retail by app. $35.00 Min.

[tremor]

Hey Nebraska,

Very good question if we consider the average expenses incurred over the course of the season. I misunderstood the original question. Obviously, everyone & their mother will have their own thoughts on this but I'm going to sumarize here the most common program that folks around here use.
All costs that follow are averaged from any of several items that may be used. I did this for each round, so if you pay more or less, don't be surprised. I used more than 1 active ingredient for all combo rounds and at least 2 ferts for straight ferts.
I based everything on the infamous 4,000 sq ft, which is the minimum for most applicators. The charge in my town is based on no less than 4 fliers I get in the mail every spring. That charge is $40.00. It bugs me that I've been in this business for 20 years as a licensed applicator, and that the charge of $40.00 has only changed for a period of 2 years during the '80's, & the trend was DOWNWARD! At least at this time, $40.00 is the very LOWEST charge for 4,000 sq ft. If you can get more, then you should. Too many of your expenses have gone UP to not get at least $50.00. At todays cost of doing business, I would'nt wave at you from a truck that I parked in front of your house for less than that.
At any rate, here's how I did this:

Cost of bag (example $16.00) divided by square feet covered in thousands (example 12,000 sq ft or 12) equals cost per thousand ($/M) times square feet treated in thousands (4,000 sq ft lawn divided by 1,000 equals 4) or:

$16.00/bag divided by 12 = $1.33/M times 4 = 5.32 per treatment for Round 1.

I will also assume that even if you don't blanket spray all lawns for weeds in their entirety, you MIGHT have to blanket spray a lawn twice the first year that the lawn is treated by you. Therefore we will estimate that cost into the equation. Since you're in NJ, the conditions are no different than here in CT. Most applicators here will spray at least SOME weeds both in the spring & fall on nearly all lawns.


Round 1) Fert with Pre-emergant: $1.33/M or ...............$5.32
this could be Team, Pre-M, or Dimension

Round 2& 3) Fert with Grub: $3.86/M or .......................$15.43

Round 4) Fert with Surface Insect: $1.23/M or ..............$4.92

Round 5) Straight Fert: $1.00/M or...............................$4.00

Round 6) Straight Fert: $.85/M or ...............................$3.40

Weeds: 2 Blanket sprays assumed @ $.27/M each or........$2.16
--------------------------------------------------
Total cost for season $8.81/M or .................................$35.23

If 6 apps are charged at $40 each then total.................$240.00

Profit before labor.....................................................$204.77

So cost of year $35.23 times 6.8 equals........................$240.00

I can't tell you much about your own labor costs or the market value of your service. But this has been an interesting exercise. I hope this helped.

Steve

[Nebraska]

that was helpful! Will print that one out for comparison with the program here in NE.

Does anyone out there use dimension? Is there any benefits of it over Pre-M? (beside the staining)

[bruces]

Steve,

I follow you logic and appreciate the info, but I'm confused on one thing.

What does the 6.8 represent in the last line?

I see that the average cost 35.23 X 6.8 = revenue charged.

It appears that the cost of product is 14.68% here (35.23/240)

Am I reading this correctly?

[Nebraska]

DIMENSION? ANYONE?

[HBFOXJr]

I use it. At proper rates, it has post emergent effects oon young crabgrass there by enlarging your application window. Also reduces some broadleaf weeds and good residual.

[Nebraska]

HB...out here we are doing two apps of Pre-M....is this something to consider instead of 2 Pre-m...?

Interesting about the post emergence...

How much more control of Crabgrass compared to Pre-M?

How much more control of broadleaf?

Last year our lesco dealer steered us away saying it was an older product? Not as effective?

[tremor]

Bruce,
The number represents nothing at all. Just that $40 is the low end of average in this area (4,000 sq ft) & if we calculate price on a cost vs price charged basis, we come up with a number that has little to no value. The real price LCO's should charge is tied to ALL their OH expenses, market demographics, & desired profit margins. Figures we don't have the luxury of access to for the example. The exercise does demonstrate how to caculate chemical costs for a season minus eqipment, seed, misc other herb's, rent, labor, administrative expenses, insurance, fuel, maint, depreciation, benefits,etc,etc,etc....

Steve

[HBFOXJr]

Supposedly tests show dimension a few points better on control than others. I'm making a major change this year in going to a heavy single application. I don't like all the SCU on my lawns. Other slow release souces of N. although more expensive give better color.

I'm gonna use the highest concentration available and apply the max suggested dose. It will be on a mini prill so I'll also have excellent particle density. I haven't been satisfied with split apps of large particles.

I'll make up the cost difference on other apps. I think I can get by with a smaller quantity of high quality, slow release N. Should give me excellent crab and weed control plus better color and more even growth at no or low price change. I've had excellent looking lawns Sept through early May but they fade in color in the summer. Some of it is turf type and variety but some of it is the SCU feedings.

[Nebraska]

HB,

We have 95% Bluegrass out here that goes dormant from November to March/April. Where they say go with Pre-M then another Pre-M app 6 weeks later....Seems like a lot of chemical being put down? Which makes for a lot of orange footwear.

[tremor]

All the Pre's last for 6-12 weeks in the real world. Balan (benefin) on the short end, Pendimethalin, Barricade, & Dimension on the long end. Team about in the middle. Some perform a little better on Broadleaf weeds than others. Rate adjustments are capable of extending the control window to the maximum, but won't allways get you out of the woods. No matter what product is used, if it is applied on April 1st & lasts for 12 weeks (pipe dream?), then it's all but gone on July 1st. That's all there is to it. Co a mid- June reinforcing application will cover your butt for the rest of the season. If irrigation or summer rains occurr in July, Crabgrass will get pretty big & ugly bu September 1st. Last year was more dramatic than usual because it didn't rain enough in April to move the product into the soil where it could work. If last years Crabs were allowed to go to seed. Then this will be a heck of a good year to test the capability of any herbicide. There's going to be that many more seeds waiting for their chance in the sun.

Don't worry so much about which Pre to use. I sell TeamPro, Pre-M, & Dimension, but offer Dimension on Mini sized prills as my preferred item. Concentrate on spreading it evenly (a little heavier on the edges), getting it watered in, & reinforcing that treatment in 6 weeks in high pressure areas regardless of which product used. They all work well when applied properly & on time then watered in. Rain needs to happen within a few days of application or ALL pre's begin to volatalize (gas off). Once they do, that's it, poor results regardles of selection, rate, or timing.

Prill size helps when applying lower amounts of product/M. At 4lbs product/M, all the common Pre's are being delivered at adequate particles per sq ft. (By common I mean: .86 Pendimethalin or .07-.10 Dimension. Both 1.31% Pend. & .15-.21 Dimension may be required in some agronomic zones) But more particles is better no matter what. So higher lbs/M (say a 13%N @ 5lbs/M for .65lbs/N or a 19%N @ 1lb/N) or smaller particles are helpful. Both Dimension & Pre-M or readily available on Mini or Golf Fairway sized prills. Team, TeamPro, & Barricade are probably made this way too. Ask the supplier.

I often recommend a straight Pre, such as 0-0-7 with .1% Dimension (which is a Mini Prill) for the historically Crabby lawns & all lawn edges. This way, you can use any fertilizer or fert/combo needed & discreetly use the Pre only where required. Or apply no fert at all on the non-irrigated or low input properties. Often times the fert analysis that come with Pre-Fert combos isn't agronomically appropriate for summer use. Vendors often run out of Pre's by June if they know what they're doing too. So the 0-0-7 approach is desirable in many situations.

Nitrogen, Sulfur, & Iron all make turf greener. But the TYPE of slow-release Nitrogen will only impact release rates, not the degree of green. I sell an awsome custom for summer use:
20-3-20 75% PolySCU + 5% Iron. The color is crazy with all the N,S,&Fe. The release rate is awesome considering the cost of the Nutralene & Amino Urea Formaldehyde blends that we offer as alternatives.
For the best color from Iron, try to keep the N-Fe ratio in the 4-1 area.

Hope this helps.

Steve

[Nebraska]

Thanks for the information...

Is the dimension more expensive?

Do you have a link to an independent study that shows the difference in results?

[tremor]

Dimension (dithiopyr) is no more than a buck a bag more. Pre-M, Weed Grass Contol, or Pendulum (pendimethalin) has been the bench-mark standard by which all others are judged for many years & is a little cheaper. They're both outstanding. But Dimension doesn't stain since it has no color. For cool-season New England/Metro NY, I only recommend these 2 molecules. I'll take orders from stubborn people for any of the others if that is what they want. But I'd be happy to stick with either of the 2 since there is almost no difference in overall efficacy. While pendimethalin doesn't claim it on the lable, it does knock down small crabgrass under the right conditions. I once participated in some greenhouse bench tests where this was determined to be accurate. But dithiopyr is better at controlling crabgrass that has emerged. Liquid sprays are almost mandatory to realize the true post-emergent benefit though.

Here is one university study where the results are all over the board.

http://www.turf.uiuc.edu/research/summaries/1990/evalu_herb_pre.pdf

Go to at least table #4 to find %crabgrass in this one.

http://www.hort.iastate.edu/pages/news/turfrpt/1999/precrab98.html

This table just Dimension:

http://www.uoguelph.ca/GTI/93anrep/93r19.htm

Here is the main menu of all the turf studies they have on-line:

http://www.uoguelph.ca/GTI/93anrep/93rtoc.htm

Kansas State has this very good publication on general weed control options:

http://www.oznet.ksu.edu/library/hort2/mf2466.pdf

This one supports the theory that Pre-M offers partial control of dandelions but makes Dimension look pretty bad. This one seems consistent with others with respect to dicot supression/control with pre's in general.

http://www.hort.iastate.edu/pages/news/turfrpt/2000/precrab.html

There are a LOT of published university studies out there for anyone who looks using some of the popular search engines. I used:

http://www.google.com/

But there are others. Try to remember that most any herbicide can be found to perform poorly or very well, if you look long enough. Manufacturers & formulators will often quote only those studies that favor the compounds that they WANT to SELL.

In the university tests, a lot of the actual application work is done by inexperienced interns & such. Therefore, you don't want to view just a couple before you try to draw any conclusions.

I hope this helps

Steve

[Nebraska]

Thank you very much for all the info...will spend some time reviewing it....My Lesco dealer here in Omaha steers us away..any idea why? We use them because of the knowledge base and ability to see the whole picture, in my opinion no one around here who know's more, willing to spend the time, and as such I am willing to pay the tiny extra..

[Nebraska]

Tremor,

Would it be possible to move to one application only of Dimension .103 instead of using what we have done in the past which consisted of two apps of Pre-M .86& 6 weeks apart on every property? And still have good results without the staining We are in Nebraska...

[Pacific Nursery]

Some of the more learned guys can tell you more but, Pre-M is a root pruner. In other words it'll prune back the roots of desireable and undesireable plants. Dimension is not a root pruner and of the two you mentioned is in my opinion the better product. I'll use dimension and barricade on my lawns this year.
Barricade being the first choice, but dimension the cost concious choice.

[tremor]

All dinitoanaline herbicide exhibit some degree of root injury. Rate & environmental factors are the determining factors as to what extent injury is exhibetted. Soil temps cause more root injury to Bluegrass than properly applied herbicides so you can let the wives tales fly, but there have been very few studies to prove otherwise on turf. Ag crops are much more of an issue. Dimension is not a dna herbicide but does cause phyto-toxic symptoms that are unique to itself on some fescues & bents & when mis-applied will still toast any lawn.

Two apps of ANY pre-emergent herb are better than 1 of the best. I will print & fax some excellent Power Point slides to anyone who wants to see them but I can't cut & paste them into this forum. I tried. There isn't time or space to copy all the data here on split vs single apps. There are 32 slides of data in total.
Simply stated, for a single application of any of the big three, we need to consider rate in pounds of active ingredient per acre.
Example:

Dimension Ultra & G Pendimethalin Barricade
.188#/Ai 1.5#Ai .38#Ai
.25#Ai 2#Ai .5#Ai
.38#Ai 3#Ai .75#Ai
This table was condensed from data gathered at OSU, Miss. State, NC State, U of MD, & Penn St. Also contributing were 46 independent LCO's, 13 Golf Courses, 10 TruGreen/ChemLawn trials & 12 LESCO sponsored sites. Data was gathered in 37 states between 1998 & 2000.

These rates would all produce a very similar percent control over the course of 120 days. By 120 days, all the breaks are big enough to see, count, & evaluate. So that's how old most of the plots were when evaluated on the single treat tests. Soil type can skew results too, so if you want me to send data, specify soils, state, & grass type cause I'm not faxing all 32 pages to anywhere.

In other words if you're doing Pre-M twice @1.5# for a total of 3#Ai, you still need to do 2 apps of either of the other two to get the same result because a single app at these rates would cause turf injury. That said, if 2 apps aren't an option, give serious consideration to rate selection & use Diemnsion. Timed correctly, all these herbs do a good job. Last year, no one was happy with ANY of the pre's because it didn't get watered in by rain. Changing chemisties won't solve environmental challenges at all.

sls247@lesco.com

Steve

[Nebraska]

What would you do?

I can get the following products at the following costs per 1000SF

Dimension .10% 18-3-10 : $1.55 per 1000
Team Pro .86% 19-3-7: $.97 per 1000
Team 1.15 % 24-2-5: $.87 per 1000
PreM .86% 19-3-7: $1.20 per 1000
(all 20-30% slow)

The market calls for 2 apps...a lot of crab grass.
Regardless I am going 1 app on my personal property and organic for the rest.

The bottom line questions is are:
Are the 350 properties that we fert going to notice any difference between the use of any of these products? (except for the lady that has a degree in Hort...)
Is it just a matter of my bottom line?

[Harvestman]

I used dimension 19-0-6 .10 % this year. I talked to the folks at lesco about 2 applications of pre-m. I was told that in my area (miami valley) that it was a waste of money. So I'm going with 1 app of the dimension. I was told it lasts about 4 months when properly applied. Harvestman

[Nebraska]

Thanks Harvest....

Everyone else must agree that it's a cost issue?

[Ric]

Nebraska


I don't know the turf etc in your area so I might be talking out of turn. However if you can spray then liquid applys of Pre Ms are the most cost of chemical effective. Any time you buy a fertilizer pesticide blend you are going to pay more than buying seperate. However these blends can be very cost effective from the stand point of response and labor costs. Liquid Vs dry is something you might look into. I don't know your area so that all I can Add.

[tremor]

Nebraska,
By the numbers you posted, it looks like you were quoted $18.60/bag Dimension. Pre-M about $14.40.

That said, the Dimension should be within about $1.00 of the Pre-M if the fertilzers are close to the same thing & they are.

I'd beat somebody up for the Dimension at $15.40 assuming it's a 30% slow release like the Pre-M.

Check your private e-mail, I find something strange here.

Steve

[Meagle816]

I found 18-3-10 20% SCU .103 Dimension at 15.60 a bag.
cost about $ 1.30 / K

Lesco 19-0-6 Dimension .103 was like 16.70 a bag

[Nebraska]

Lesco quoted a lot higher than that on the Dimension product....it is a sore subject on how they are playing games!

[Nebraska]

Issue of the bottom line or an issue of product effectiveness?