What does an organic tree and shrub program look like

[DeepGreenLawn]

I have more and more people ask me if I could include a tree and shrub program. What exactly does an organic tree and shrub program look like? CT and more CT? Maybe a certain kind for certain diseases insects?

What kind of pump, hose, and gun do I need to be able to reach a medium sized tree, about 20' tall, you know, small enough to point out needing treating continuously but at the same time tall enough that I need a jet stream to reach? I know larger trees will need work but I am just talking about your average program.

[ICT Bill]

Pretty broad question and arborist are a pretty secretive bunch about what they use. Trees, woody's, shrubs and perrenials prefer a fungal dominated soil we try to promote fungi by using more complex foods, mycorrhizae and in our programs we use known microorganisms.

They use drenches, soil injections, tree injections and foliars. Some of the pumps and PSI's are pretty heavy duty, they have to reach 60 to 80 feet into the canopy for foliars. Soil injections are very common and is typically done in a checkerboard fashion around the drip line

[DeepGreenLawn]

what about bushes? Most of the customers are mainly concerned about keeping their bushes healthy. I had one ask about some magnolias that were about 20' tall that were looking a little scraggly. I figured that a few treatments with some CT would probably whip them back in shape along with maybe pumping it into the roots. My dad use to have a cemetary and used a "T" bar that was hooked to a hose to help settle the dirt in freshly dug graves. I know the soil was A LOT softer being it was just dug up but is this the type of tool that would be used for the injections?

Or is this way out of my league? Maybe I can keep to the easier stuff and sub out what the more complex areas such as soil injections. For the most part bushes seem to take care of themselves. All the customers that have inquired about the service have healthy bushes, one has some azaleas that aren't blooming but I can figure that out, so for the most part they want to make sure the bushes stay healthy with ferts and what not.

Am I wrong in thinking CT will accomplish this for the most part organicly?

[ICT Bill]

You are right on track CT especially with mycorrhizae added is an excellent soil injection.

[Kiril]

DGL, don't over analyze landscape care or jump to the conclusion that if a plant is looking bad CT will fix it. There are many other factors that could result in plant decline/looking bad that has nothing to do with the soil directly.

[DeepGreenLawn]

well, these are just crappy magnolias that the developers keep planting 5' from the fence. This always pisses me off in that you see a mature magnolia and they are about 20' if not more in diameter. I am sure they are also hurting from the lack of water the previous season. They don't look "bad" just don't look great either. Like I said, if I can't seem to get it under control or it is out of my hands I have no problem bringing in outside more experienced help. They will be closely followed and watched though, everyone sees these times as a great opportunity to steal customers. I just want them to do a service, be paid, and go away. Do that and I will keep bringing you in, don't and you just lost a lot of money in the long run. That is what I love about my maintenance company. They stick to what they do and I am sure I am now their main source of new customers.

[DeepGreenLawn]

http://www2.northerntool.com/product/405991.htm

I know, I know, it's cheap, small, and will have to be refilled a lot. I am sorry if it is a slap to the face for someone like yourself Treegal, but... would this be feesible to use as a start up system for tree apps? Using CT? I looked at an injection system and it was about $2000 but it was pretty high tech and suppose to be easy to use.

Also, does anyone have any ideas of what I might can put this system on to make it more mobile other than an ATV or mower? I don't know what it might be.

Treegal, you said a air hose would work for the regular apps, is there a hose big enough and long enough to supply what I need from something like this? I think the tank itself is plenty big enough, it won't take long to refill and as I said it would mainly be used for the larger trees. Not a full grown oak or anything but a 20' tall magnolia, cypress, etc.

[ICT Bill]

Kiril, Thanks you are right, many environmental factors will contribute to tree and shrub decline. I didn't mean to sound like CT was the only thing

It takes a trained and experienced eye

[DeepGreenLawn]

I agree, but you don't just wake up one morning and know all. You have to aquire that experience. I could go work for companies my whole life trying to gain experience, OR... I could start my own company, do what I can, and bring in outside help and then gain more experience by working with them. But, as far as a preventitive, healthy plant, treatment program, from what I understand, CT is about as good as it gets.

[Kiril]

A healthy plant is a happy plant. :)

[Kiril]

I didn't mean to sound like CT was the only thing

I know. I typed that post before I read your reply. :)

[DeepGreenLawn]

healthy plants = happy plants = happy customers = happy me :D

[PHS]

DGL,
An organic program for trees and shrubs I find to be pretty darn simple for the most part. Larger plants practically take care of themselves if you just leave them alone. Take a soil sample, if you need to irrigate keep it to an absolute minimum to minimize weed issues. Keep a good mulch layer on the ground. With good timing, oil and copper can handle most insect and disease problems. Learn to ID beneficials because they're a bigger issue than with lawns.

Pretty broad question and arborist are a pretty secretive bunch about what they use.

That's the truth and to be honest with you you probably don't want to copy what they're doing anyway. Since most landscape people and homeowners have very limited knowledge about tree care they can get away with snake oil treatments all day long as long as their half baked rationale sounds reasonable. As an arborist myself I hate to say these things but from my experience it's the truth.

[DeepGreenLawn]

I JUST got done talking with a customer that was asking about a tree and turf program. PHS, what you just said is exactly what I told her. 90% of the time the plants will really take care of themselves. I told her the only time I really do any kind of treatments is when there is a problem. Other than, leave them alone, they don't require much unless it is something like an azalea or rose. I told her that I never could figure out why companies always tried to sell these programs when they really were not needed. I did tell her though that I was in the process of putting a program together using organics that will basically compose of the same thing I put on the lawn, maybe just CT and leave out the ferts. But for the most part it would be just for growth and maybe help some blooming.

She said she really just wanted to have the pests and diseases treated for. That the other companies she talked to would not just treat for pests but had a 6 times per year type program she had to be on. I told her that my program would basically be the "good guys" that are needed to naturally have a healthy plant. Other than that they would be treated on an as needed basis.

She seemed to be pretty happy with my answer.

[PHS]

She said she really just wanted to have the pests and diseases treated for. That the other companies she talked to would not just treat for pests but had a 6 times per year type program she had to be on. I told her that my program would basically be the "good guys" that are needed to naturally have a healthy plant. Other than that they would be treated on an as needed basis.

Somehow I accidentally deleted my well-thought-out post but the summary of it is you may have to get her on a program at some point. The problem I've run into in doing it that way is that by the time they call you out for a problem it's totally out of hand. It can be difficult to get things under control with conventional materials. With organics timing is more critical and you may not even have a chance by the time you get there. Shrubs and trees kinda take of themselves but that doesn't mean there aren't problems. Aphids on Crepe Myrtles, Lace bugs on Azaleas, things like that.

You don't really need to panic at this point, but keep it in mind and see if you can't figure out a way to steer her into a program for next year. In the mean time even it's going to cost you some time that you can't bill for, I would stop and scout her property when you're in the neighborhood. It might save your a$$ until you can set up a different system with her.

[DeepGreenLawn]

I am always traveling through the area either to treat around there or get to my other routes. She is right in the center of my "territory." Not really a territory just a big circle of cities I have chosen to start in. I keep an eye out for all my customers with their bushes and a lot of times their neighbors if they are close enough.

What kind of organics are there to protect against these guys or do you rely more on the synthetics for this situation?

[PHS]

I'm not an organic-only operation but typically opt for an organic material as my first choice. Soap works for Lace bugs, oil is good for Aphids. It's not that you can't control these pests organically, you can. You just don't want to be called out to deal with them when the Azaleas are bleach white and the Crepes are a sticky, sappy, black moldy mess. By that point, even if you get excellent control of the pests and do everthing right on your end, the plants area a mess for the rest of the year and you end looking bad and it's not your fault.

[treegal1]

DGL, the tree care program is like this, soil is the basis of the organic program, soils good, the yards happy, everyone is happy. there are most of the time poor cultural practices going on with the tree = chems , sterile soil, over watering, compacted soil...... and many more.start with a good look, dig a hole near the tree(DON'T HURT ANY ROOTS)whats happening there??? after that its a Field experience/ identifying problems scenario. then if there is a real need beyond organics, does the tree need to go? is there a way to treat it with chems IE injections, implants that will be less intrusive. can it be fixed with proper nutrition(we have seen some trees that just needed phosphate to come around)

some times, and it does not sound like your case, the tree has to go and a new tree or 3 has to be replanted!!!!

treehugers cut down trees to, we just plant a lot more!!!!!!

[Kiril]

I told her that my program would basically be the "good guys" that are needed to naturally have a healthy plant. Other than that they would be treated on an as needed basis.

Good for you, and this approach works. Encourage populations of beneficial insects, maintain healthy plants and growing conditions, scope out the landscape when on your maintenance round to see if anything needs immediate attention.

[PHS]

if there is a real need beyond organics, does the tree need to go?

Good point. I see it the same way. I don't use organic vs non-organic as the baseline but it's a cost/benefit analysis either way. Sometimes the results just don't justify the amount of inputs.

In another thread you mentioned your uncut St Augustine going to seed for the first time. That must be a climate thing because here virtually all St. Aug lawns here produce seed heads regardless of the mowing height.