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dlee1996
06-11-2008, 01:00 PM
New Texas rules and regs regarding irrigation systems.

http://www.tceq.state.tx.us/assets/public/legal/rules/rule_lib/adoptions/07027344_ado_clean.pdf

How do the guys in Texas feel about these new changes. I think they will be good. It should do away with all the poorly installed systems. I will be a inspector that will check the new installs out. I have seen a few that have been installed in new 350,000 + new homes and they are terrible. It is clearly some of these guys have no clue what they are doing. Lots of 4 rotor specials, or 10' spray heads on the sidewalk spraying to the curb. So they will be spraying about 5' into the street. See rotors on the back fence and spray heads by the porch. Whatever happened to head to head coverage. I understand not ever yard can have that but these yards are pretty square with no trees. They can do that now but once January 2009 starts I believe the part timers will be done. The city I work for will require that they turn in plans prior to installing the system for review. That way we can catch the 4 rotor fix or the sprays between the curb and the sidewalk.

nylan8888
06-11-2008, 01:13 PM
Oh Great, just what they need, inspectors who don't know squat about irrigation or hydraulics or pricing are going to "help" them design systems. Texas irrigators are already liscensed, so I guess now the liscense is just a joke?
:hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::ham merhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerh ead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead: :hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead:

Wet_Boots
06-11-2008, 01:13 PM
Since we've seen some photos of artfully curving sidewalks in some developments, what will be the mandated design technique employed there?

dlee1996
06-11-2008, 01:19 PM
Oh Great, just what they need, inspectors who don't know squat about irrigation or hydraulics or pricing are going to "help" them design systems. Texas irrigators are already liscensed, so I guess now the liscense is just a joke?
:hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::ham merhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerh ead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead: :hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead:

Pricing will have nothing to do with a inspection. If you have seen some of the installs I have seen you would see why the inspections are needed. And you have to know the hydraulics and about irrigation to do it. So what else do you have. We will not be helping them design the systems we will be checking that it is a properly designed system to the state and local regs.

dlee1996
06-11-2008, 01:24 PM
Since we've seen some photos of artfully curving sidewalks in some developments, what will be the mandated design technique employed there?

The irrigator will have to make a good design for it.

nylan8888
06-11-2008, 01:24 PM
So tell me, how much experience do you have in the irrigation industry?
Do you have all the reference material to decide how far a head with a specific nozzle can throw based on pressure and volume of the supplied water figuring the friction loss going through valves, pipe, fittings etc.?
Do you have sufficient plant knowledge to know which plants are drought tolerant and which aren't, requiring adjustment of the spacing or nozzle size.

I'm sorry Texas but you are going to so screwed!

Wet_Boots
06-11-2008, 01:27 PM
The irrigator will have to make a good design for it.Elaborate, please. If all you plan to write in your inspection reports is "I don't like it" you can expect to get your properly-licensed head handed to you.

Mike Leary
06-11-2008, 01:29 PM
Say hello to Jimmy Hoffa.

nylan8888
06-11-2008, 01:30 PM
Pricing will have nothing to do with a inspection. If you have seen some of the installs I have seen you would see why the inspections are needed. And you have to know the hydraulics and about irrigation to do it. So what else do you have.

Of course it will affect the price. Do you think you can just add heads or zones without someone incurring the cost? Plus having to submit every design to the city will be major pain and will drive cost through the roof. We install 4-5 systems a week in the average season. Now we will have to wait for every design to be submitted, rejected for some assinine reason, resubmitted and so on, based on the whims of some inspector, all before we can even give the customer a definite price and write a contract.

Mike Leary
06-11-2008, 01:33 PM
Welcome to $1500 zones, Texas.

nylan8888
06-11-2008, 01:34 PM
:hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead:

dlee1996
06-11-2008, 01:38 PM
Of course it will affect the price. Do you think you can just add heads or zones without someone incurring the cost? Plus having to submit every design to the city will be major pain and will drive cost through the roof. We install 4-5 systems a week in the average season. Now we will have to wait for every design to be submitted, rejected for some assinine reason, resubmitted and so on, based on the whims of some inspector, all before we can even give the customer a definite price and write a contract.

It will be a pain to submit plans. That was not my idea. But do you not make plans for each system you install? As long as the systems is design to the state regs there are no issues.

dlee1996
06-11-2008, 01:39 PM
:hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead:

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

nylan8888
06-11-2008, 01:41 PM
It will be a pain to submit plans. That was not my idea. But do you not make plans for each system you install? As long as the systems is design to the state regs there are no issues.

Correction, each inspectors interpretation of the regs and whether their over easy eggs were too runny or too hard that morning.

nylan8888
06-11-2008, 01:42 PM
So, whats the answer?
So tell me, how much experience do you have in the irrigation industry?
Do you have all the reference material to decide how far a head with a specific nozzle can throw based on pressure and volume of the supplied water figuring the friction loss going through valves, pipe, fittings etc.?
Do you have sufficient plant knowledge to know which plants are drought tolerant and which aren't, requiring adjustment of the spacing or nozzle size.

Wet_Boots
06-11-2008, 01:43 PM
It will be a pain to submit plans. That was not my idea. But do you not make plans for each system you install? As long as the systems is design to the state regs there are no issues.If you can't design a system on the fly, you should be in another line of work. No offense, but this has fustercluck written all over it. Bring on the trunk-slammer brigade!

dlee1996
06-11-2008, 01:43 PM
So tell me, how much experience do you have in the irrigation industry?
Do you have all the reference material to decide how far a head with a specific nozzle can throw based on pressure and volume of the supplied water figuring the friction loss going through valves, pipe, fittings etc.?
Do you have sufficient plant knowledge to know which plants are drought tolerant and which aren't, requiring adjustment of the spacing or nozzle size.

I'm sorry Texas but you are going to so screwed!

If I have the plans then yes I can figure the friction loss through the pipe, valves and fittings. I will not be the one setting the controller for the watering schedule. Just that there is a separate zone for the flower bed versus the yard.

dlee1996
06-11-2008, 01:45 PM
If you can't design a system on the fly, you should be in another line of work. No offense, but this has fustercluck written all over it. Bring on the trunk-slammer brigade!

I guess you like the 4 rotor fix.

dlee1996
06-11-2008, 01:47 PM
Correction, each inspectors interpretation of the regs and whether their over easy eggs were too runny or too hard that morning.

:nono: I can tell you as far as I go. If you are within the regs you will be fine.

nylan8888
06-11-2008, 01:47 PM
If I have the plans then yes I can figure the friction loss through the pipe, valves and fittings. I will not be the one setting the controller for the watering schedule. Just that there is a separate zone for the flower bed versus the yard.

See, you already have problems with reading comprehension. I didn't ask anything about setting the timer. Like I said every inspectors interpretation.

Sucks to be in Texas!

nylan8888
06-11-2008, 01:50 PM
So, once again, HOW MUCH EXPERIENCE DO YOU HAVE IN IRRIGATION?

dlee1996
06-11-2008, 01:51 PM
See, you already have problems with reading comprehension. I didn't ask anything about setting the timer. Like I said every inspectors interpretation.

Sucks to be in Texas!

And is still better than being in OK.:waving::laugh::cool2:

dlee1996
06-11-2008, 01:52 PM
So, once again, HOW MUCH EXPERIENCE DO YOU HAVE IN IRRIGATION?

This year.:weightlifter:

So to be a building inspector you have to have been in construction previously.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

nylan8888
06-11-2008, 01:54 PM
This year.:weightlifter:

So to be a building inspector you have to have been in construction previously.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Spoken like a true know nothing inspector, all book no knowledge.

dlee1996
06-11-2008, 01:57 PM
Spoken like a true know nothing inspector, all book no knowledge.

The only knowledge I need is what to look for as far as state regs go. I do not need to know how to run a trencher.:dizzy:

Wet_Boots
06-11-2008, 02:04 PM
I guess you like the 4 rotor fix.Sorry, I don't grok your terminology. But I do know of countless effective sprinkler systems that don't have any head-to-head spacing, that were installed long before the current day. Some of them (in fact, many of them) commit the grievous offense of tossing water across sidewalks from curbside rotors.

But enjoy your career as a public 'servant' on the Texas taxpayers' dime. We don't have nearly enough government regulation. ;)

dlee1996
06-11-2008, 03:21 PM
Sorry, I don't grok your terminology. But I do know of countless effective sprinkler systems that don't have any head-to-head spacing, that were installed long before the current day. Some of them (in fact, many of them) commit the grievous offense of tossing water across sidewalks from curbside rotors.

But enjoy your career as a public 'servant' on the Texas taxpayers' dime. We don't have nearly enough government regulation. ;)

So I guess a good system will spray the sidewalk? That seems like a waste of water to me.

Mike Leary
06-11-2008, 03:56 PM
In reading the regs, I noticed the comment about DU being "good" at 65 to 75%, seems
to me a little low, we can get 80% without breaking a sweat, do you pass the system at 65%?

Dirty Water
06-11-2008, 04:38 PM
Why is it that Texas, a state with some of the highest irrigation regulations, tends to fall just above Florida in quality?

k911lowe
06-11-2008, 04:42 PM
more government cant be good.

Wet_Boots
06-11-2008, 04:45 PM
So I guess a good system will spray the sidewalk? That seems like a waste of water to me.If you dump a few gallons of water on a sidewalk, it will flow off the surface, and into the soil alongside. Which is what the sprinklers would be doing anyway. I'd love to sell extra zones of spray heads, but I don't consider it a top priority, and it isn't a deal-breaker, if the customer doesn't want to spend for the extra zones. Since there's a long-established custom of ignoring sidewalks in these parts, the overshooting of sidewalks is a non-issue.

You know, one big tree will ruin the DU of a head-to-head-spacing sprinkler system. Will Texas be cutting down every tree in a sprinkled lawn?

Mike Leary
06-11-2008, 04:54 PM
With all the beer & briskets they consume, I bet the inspectors look like Jackie Gleason.

bcg
06-11-2008, 06:10 PM
What's really kind of lame is that one of the main reasons we started licensing in Tx was that prior to that, all connections to the city water had to be permitted and only a licensed plumber could pull a permit. The justification for licensing, among other things, was that a licensed irrigator could make the connection without having to pay a plumber to pull a permit or pulling a permit on their own since they'd have demonstrated the knowledge required to do so properly. Now we're going to require irrigators to pull permits on all installations in municipalities with a populoation of 20,000 or more (pretty much everywhere that irrigation is regularly installed). Seems like a bad deal to me. The money would probably be better spent with improved field enforcement of non-licensed installations and repairs where they could collect some real revenue in fines and actually get rid of some of the bad work. Making those that are already licensed go through a permitting process isn't going to stop the unlicensed guys that are already out there from doing crappy work.

EagleLandscape
06-11-2008, 06:34 PM
I think it's a great idea. Flow calculations, precip rates, the whole bit. My dad is loving the idea, opportunity to double-triple income by designing system for contractors that don't know how to design in the first place.

EagleLandscape
06-11-2008, 06:35 PM
You know, one big tree will ruin the DU of a head-to-head-spacing sprinkler system. Will Texas be cutting down every tree in a sprinkled lawn?

No, but those would-be rotor zones, will now become spray head zones because of the trees. The way they should have been in the first place.

Dripit good
06-11-2008, 06:39 PM
If you dump a few gallons of water on a sidewalk, it will flow off the surface, and into the soil alongside. Which is what the sprinklers would be doing anyway. I'd love to sell extra zones of spray heads, but I don't consider it a top priority, and it isn't a deal-breaker, if the customer doesn't want to spend for the extra zones. Since there's a long-established custom of ignoring sidewalks in these parts, the overshooting of sidewalks is a non-issue.

You know, one big tree will ruin the DU of a head-to-head-spacing sprinkler system. Will Texas be cutting down every tree in a sprinkled lawn?

Well said. There is no significant transpiration within cement, and run off will go to the turf. Over spraying a sidewalk is mainly a non issue (unless someone happens to be using it at that moment) and one tree will affect the efficiency rating of that particular zone.

From the sound of this, it appears gsxr1100 found himself a city job! It's hard to believe this guy is for real. I suppose with his approach, lack of experience and attitude he will fit right in with most city worker mentalities. :laugh:

Mike Leary
06-11-2008, 06:48 PM
I think it's a great idea.

Homeland security will be supplying bullet-proof vests & armored Hummers
to the inspectors.

Dripit good
06-11-2008, 06:54 PM
No, but those would-be rotor zones, will now become spray head zones because of the trees. The way they should have been in the first place.


Huh?!? :confused:

Mike Leary
06-11-2008, 07:00 PM
No, but those would-be rotor zones, will now become spray head zones because of the trees. The way they should have been in the first place.

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

Dripit good
06-11-2008, 07:26 PM
If I have the plans then yes I can figure the friction loss through the pipe, valves and fittings. I will not be the one setting the controller for the watering schedule. Just that there is a separate zone for the flower bed versus the yard.

The only thing you will be calculating is where to buy your next donut, and where to snooze while on the clock.

Other than separate zones for turf and shrubs, what great state regs must be followed?

Wet_Boots
06-11-2008, 07:58 PM
No, but those would-be rotor zones, will now become spray head zones because of the trees. The way they should have been in the first place.That's a steaming crock, sonny. On your best day, you will not be placing spray heads near enough to some of the ancient trees I encounter. There's a real world out there, and the solutions don't lend themselves to looking great on paper.

txgrassguy
06-11-2008, 08:01 PM
I don't know what to make out of all the original poster started this thread with.
According to my experience with State of Texas Inspectors both with the TCEQ and TDA (chemical applications) one can be reasonably assured that a cup of coffee and a donut will buy all of the "inspection" needed.
I am disenchanted with the quality and quantity of State Inspectors but since I drink more per month than what most of these guys bring home I have come to expect less than professional interaction - much of what I have seen is exactly like what the thread starter wrote.
So I pretty much know what to expect, more of the same.
Same trunk slammers, same quality conscience clients willing to pay for a professionally designed/installed system, and perhaps just a bit more paperwork.
I do believe, however, that if a knowledgeable installer can't initially view a site and develop with-in a brief period of time system guidelines to base an accurate estimate - they should go flip burgers or pick their nose in some other occupation - or be State Inspectors.
And I am not joking at all.

dlee1996
06-11-2008, 08:44 PM
The only thing you will be calculating is where to buy your next donut, and where to snooze while on the clock.

Other than separate zones for turf and shrubs, what great state regs must be followed?

Read the link in the original post.:rolleyes:

dlee1996
06-11-2008, 08:46 PM
If you dump a few gallons of water on a sidewalk, it will flow off the surface, and into the soil alongside. Which is what the sprinklers would be doing anyway. I'd love to sell extra zones of spray heads, but I don't consider it a top priority, and it isn't a deal-breaker, if the customer doesn't want to spend for the extra zones. Since there's a long-established custom of ignoring sidewalks in these parts, the overshooting of sidewalks is a non-issue.

You know, one big tree will ruin the DU of a head-to-head-spacing sprinkler system. Will Texas be cutting down every tree in a sprinkled lawn?

The main goal is to stop the hundreds of thousands of gallons that go down city drains weekly.

Mike Leary
06-11-2008, 08:57 PM
The main goal is to stop the hundreds of thousands of gallons that go down city drains weekly.

Yup, seen it a million times while coming through all your fair cities at 4.30am
blown heads all over the place. Hope the water cops are early risers.

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-11-2008, 09:11 PM
We'll see what happens. Common sense prevails 90% of the time. Should be great for the service business though. Highland Park got on people if water was 2-3' in the curb running down from their house. Lots of redo work as a result. MPs will rule. Watering sidewalks in most cases leads to gutter runoff not water in grass. If a job involves dealing with permits or inspections I don't mess with it. Nobody factors bureaucracy into their bids. That is time most contractors eat. Lot of blowhards in this biz. Get a LI in the 5 digits then an IA certificate and they think their hot stuff with no real hands on skills.

dlee1996
06-11-2008, 09:26 PM
Yup, seen it a million times while coming through all your fair cities at 4.30am
blown heads all over the place. Hope the water cops are early risers.

Those are getting fixed as well.

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-11-2008, 11:37 PM
Why is it that Texas, a state with some of the highest irrigation regulations, tends to fall just above Florida in quality?

You know that first hand? :)

Water issues have a long history in Texas.

irritation
06-11-2008, 11:50 PM
Wow, that's some funny stuff.
If they ever tried to enforce that crap around here, the prices would go way up.

Waterit
06-11-2008, 11:53 PM
You guys knock Florida irrigation all the time, but at least our inspectors KNOW that they don't know schist, and leave the good irrigators alone to do our job. The crappy installers catch heck, the licensed ones, anyway - they're not too good at catching the UNlicensed ones.

LawnMastersTx
06-12-2008, 12:06 AM
Last time i met someone that was with the TECQ and asked him about irrigation, all i got was this phrase from him "We give out the license, but I have never checked a system to make sure the rules are followed and I have no clue on what rules their might be".

What is the point of having rules if no one is going to enforce them.

Want to fix the problem with crappy installs, GO AFTER THE PEOPLE WITH NO LICENSE!!! Or at least test out the systems so people know that they "might" get checked.

I use craigslist to post for repair work out in my area (did this because my signs kept getting stolen) I saw a ton of people posting to do repair work out in the Dallas area, a lot of them were Handy Man guys looking for anything to fix around the house. A few of the others gave out false license information. I called TECQ and asked them about it. The enforcer said he tried to go after the guys before but they were to hard to track down to send a letter too so he gave up.

Rules mean nothing if no one is going to enforce them.

EagleLandscape
06-12-2008, 12:08 AM
[/COLOR]


Huh?!? :confused:

The DU's with rotors amongest trees is gonna SUCK!!

Sprays are going to provide better coverage, however it has its downsides. Trenching and digging through the roots of trees can be a not so fun chore.:weightlifter::weightlifter:

EagleLandscape
06-12-2008, 12:09 AM
Last time i met someone that was with the TECQ and asked him about irrigation, all i got was this phrase from him "We give out the license, but I have never checked a system to make sure the rules are followed and I have no clue on what rules their might be".

What is the point of having rules if no one is going to enforce them.

Want to fix the problem with crappy installs, GO AFTER THE PEOPLE WITH NO LICENSE!!! Or at least test out the systems so people know that they "might" get checked.

I use craigslist to post for repair work out in my area (did this because my signs kept getting stolen) I saw a ton of people posting to do repair work out in the Dallas area, a lot of them were Handy Man guys looking for anything to fix around the house. A few of the others gave out false license information. I called TECQ and asked them about it. The enforcer said he tried to go after the guys before but they were to hard to track down to send a letter too so he gave up.

Rules mean nothing if no one is going to enforce them.

Yah but you can't pull a permit without a design. it's going to help raise the prices of installations:):)

LawnMastersTx
06-12-2008, 12:18 AM
Yah but you can't pull a permit without a design. it's going to help raise the prices of installations:):)

Good point there. All systems should always come with this, and if not then they shouldnt have a permit. This will put a few companies out here out of business or they will have to higher it out. One old boy i talked to mentioned that he has never done one and will not do those, they are a waste of time. Needless to say I came back to fix his install that happened to do half of the neighbors yard. He went out of business last month.

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-12-2008, 07:01 AM
My guess is electricians, plumbers, ac people, and maybe a few more are plagued by unlicensed contractors. I have a hispanic guy I use that is a great irrigator and I'd pay him 200/hr before I'd pay some of these LI guys 50/hr. He could never get a LI because he couldn't pass the test. I like the LI concept and hope it can get some real teeth but great irrigation is still the art of the guy who puts in the time and effort with great passion. A lot of these LI people are empty vessels IMHO. I can put in a great system without a budget and a design. I personally hate designing and the desk time involved. One reason I prefer service work. I basically take crapola systems and redesign on the spot to make it a better and more efficient system. Let others go through the bureaucratic BS and I'll come in under the radar and legally clean the mess up.

AI Inc
06-12-2008, 07:11 AM
I used to do a design for each system yrs ago. After doing 20 or so I realized 8 times out of 10 there were situations on site that would require a design change rendering original useless. Now I just do an as built after we are done.

Wet_Boots
06-12-2008, 07:26 AM
I have a dismantled drafting table and a set of technical pens gathering dust somewhere.

Waterit
06-12-2008, 09:10 AM
I used to do a design for each system yrs ago. After doing 20 or so I realized 8 times out of 10 there were situations on site that would require a design change rendering original useless. Now I just do an as built after we are done.

I field engineer all residentials, even some of the commercials. As-builts on request only for an additional charge on residential, built into price on commercial.

I have a dismantled drafting table and a set of technical pens gathering dust somewhere.

My drafting table is currently used as storage for my wife's day-care stuff!:laugh:

DanaMac
06-12-2008, 09:40 AM
I'd like to know from the Texas guys if plumbers and electricians have to design drawings for new installs they work on. Or do they just install on-the-fly. Do they have to provide the same amount of up front design and follow up that you need to do for irrigation.

I get people complaining all the time that they never got a drawing from their sprinkler install company. Well, they never got a drawing of their plumbing and electrical either. So when they need things added or have a full addition put on they don't know what's where. The companies just have to adapt to what they find. I never gave a drawing when I was installing either.

Dripit good
06-12-2008, 09:42 AM
Read the link in the original post.:rolleyes:

Nice pass. Keep that up and you will be a typical inspector forgetting (or not caring) who your customers are. The cat and mouse game is on!

216 pages of bureaucracy! Good Lord. The cost analysis of creating this document would be painful to view. This makes even the most complicated RFP look look elementary.

I suggest you become more familiar with your "bible". I found this gem contradicting one of your earlier grievances, or shall we say opinions.


The commission also recognizes exceptions from the requirements in some limited instances, such as narrow meandering paved walkways, jogging paths, golf cart paths, cemeteries, or other small impervious areas that should be exempted from the requirement because more water would be used in avoiding spraying water onto the surface than the small amount that might run off the paved surface. The commission changed §344.62(b)(2) and added §344.62(b)(3) to address the concerns. The commission made changes to the rule based on these comments.

Tom Tom
06-12-2008, 10:03 AM
I'd like to know from the Texas guys if plumbers and electricians have to design drawings for new installs they work on. Or do they just install on-the-fly. Do they have to provide the same amount of up front design and follow up that you need to do for irrigation.

I get people complaining all the time that they never got a drawing from their sprinkler install company. Well, they never got a drawing of their plumbing and electrical either. So when they need things added or have a full addition put on they don't know what's where. The companies just have to adapt to what they find. I never gave a drawing when I was installing either.


good point, never thought of it that way.

Wet_Boots
06-12-2008, 10:09 AM
Nice pass. Keep that up and you will be a typical inspector forgetting (or not caring) who your customers are. The cat and mouse game is on!

216 pages of bureaucracy! Good Lord. The cost analysis of creating this document would be painful to view. This makes even the most complicated RFP look look elementary.

I suggest you become more familiar with your "bible". I found this gem contradicting one of your earlier grievances, or shall we say opinions.


The commission also recognizes exceptions from the requirements in some limited instances, such as narrow meandering paved walkways, jogging paths, golf cart paths, cemeteries, or other small impervious areas that should be exempted from the requirement because more water would be used in avoiding spraying water onto the surface than the small amount that might run off the paved surface. The commission changed §344.62(b)(2) and added §344.62(b)(3) to address the concerns. The commission made changes to the rule based on these comments.You actually reading that pile of #$@&*%!! ~ more power to you. :nono:

Dripit good
06-12-2008, 10:13 AM
If I have the plans then yes I can figure the friction loss through the pipe, valves and fittings. I will not be the one setting the controller for the watering schedule. Just that there is a separate zone for the flower bed versus the yard.

If your goal is to not waste water, a main focus should be on scheduling. The most efficient system in town can waste more water through run off and over watering than a crappy or "inefficient" system due to improper scheduling.

Dripit good
06-12-2008, 10:17 AM
You actually reading that pile of #$@&*%!! ~ more power to you. :nono:

You are correct sir, shame on me. I certainly have better things to do with my time.

Waterit
06-12-2008, 10:24 AM
I'd like to know from the Texas guys if plumbers and electricians have to design drawings for new installs they work on. Or do they just install on-the-fly. Do they have to provide the same amount of up front design and follow up that you need to do for irrigation.

I get people complaining all the time that they never got a drawing from their sprinkler install company. Well, they never got a drawing of their plumbing and electrical either. So when they need things added or have a full addition put on they don't know what's where. The companies just have to adapt to what they find. I never gave a drawing when I was installing either.

Here most house plans and ALL commercial plans have electrical and plumbing drawings provided by a licensed designer. Irrigation is NEVER provided on residential, and only sometimes on commercial.

DanaMac
06-12-2008, 10:30 AM
Here most house plans and ALL commercial plans have electrical and plumbing drawings provided by a licensed designer. Irrigation is NEVER provided on residential, and only sometimes on commercial.

But is this drawing the way it is actually field installed? I can see it more on a commercial job. I know the outlets and switches, faucets and spigots will be drawn on plans, but what about the actual installation of the wires and pipes? Are they drawn in at all? Are they installed the way it is drawn in? Are they changed after it was installed differentially than the drawing?

dlee1996
06-12-2008, 11:46 AM
If your goal is to not waste water, a main focus should be on scheduling. The most efficient system in town can waste more water through run off and over watering than a crappy or "inefficient" system due to improper scheduling.

There will be a focus on scheduling. But a crappy system can waste a ton of water. We had one the guy had 12s on the side of the house. Which is about 4-5' between the house and the fence. You saying that is not a waste of water? The main goal is to use some sense and to help conserve water. The metroplex waste alot of water on irrigation.

txgrassguy
06-12-2008, 01:38 PM
Dana, without sounding ridiculous, Texas leaves certain permitting requirements to each city dependent upon population and how efficacious their code enforcement happens to be.
The state has a set of "default" codes that are supposed to be enacted in lieu of applicable city or county ordnances but this rarely happens.
There are a few cities around Texas that are quite tenacious about correct irrigation, Austin and the surrounding areas like Bee Caves, Lakeway are a few examples.
But in an unincorporated or smaller town, forget it.
And calling TCEQ with a report about an unlicensed irrigator gets absolutely no response.
I know, I reported over ten unlicensed installers in one three month period, photos included. And jack sh!t happened. I got more response talking to my dog.

jerryrwm
06-12-2008, 02:59 PM
Some of the problems they are facing is the fact that the code was changed to take effect 1 Jun 08 and be implemented 1 Jan 09. They only have the position in the code. They haven't written the job description for the job. And they haven't finished writing the qualifications for the position. Plus they are having to put the training course together. So in the words of one member of the Irrigation Council - They kinda got the cart before the horse.

I really wonder about the effectiveness of a 'brand new irrigator' being a knowledgable inspector. And whether or not a newbie inspector might be found stuffed into a 6" round valve box (You know us licensed Texas Irrigators are issued a pallet of them upon successfully passing the irrigators exam!) if he pisses off one of the old 'mossy heads' that are still out there. (Damn! I just realized that I might be one of those mossy heads after looking at my Lic. #

Oh well, things are different up here in Wisconsin in some respects. But we are still just throwing water in the air.

Wet_Boots
06-12-2008, 03:10 PM
Send the Texas inspectors up to Cheeseville to round up those wild heads!

txgrassguy
06-12-2008, 03:35 PM
jerry, I may not be an "old mossy head" irrigator but I have been doing this for about seventeen years - and I too wonder about newly licensed irrigators being hired as inspectors.
The state faces an unenviable task in trying to right a program that despite a comprehensive exam has little to offer in the way of enforcement.
I feel that to allow things to continue as they are is wrong but placing additional demands on legitimate irrigators in an effort to halt the trunk slammers is wrong as well.
Oh well, we'll see what happens (or doesn't) soon.

Mike Leary
06-12-2008, 03:35 PM
I really wonder about the effectiveness of a 'brand new irrigator' being a knowledgable inspector.

It would be worse if they hired us old timers: for one thing, we can't run
very fast anymore and most of us won't fit in a 6" either.

dlee1996
06-12-2008, 04:04 PM
I really wonder about the effectiveness of a 'brand new irrigator' being a knowledgable inspector.

Well the problem there is most of the "seasoned" irrigators like being their own boss and do not want to quit there job to work for the city. I have been told that once you get the inspector license your irrigator license will be dormant and not usable. So you could not do repairs or installs.

Wet_Boots
06-12-2008, 04:17 PM
It would be worse if they hired us old timers: for one thing, we can't run
very fast anymore and most of us won't fit in a 6" either.You'd be surprised what we do fit into

bcg
06-12-2008, 04:18 PM
jerry, I may not be an "old mossy head" irrigator but I have been doing this for about seventeen years - and I too wonder about newly licensed irrigators being hired as inspectors.
The state faces an unenviable task in trying to right a program that despite a comprehensive exam has little to offer in the way of enforcement.
I feel that to allow things to continue as they are is wrong but placing additional demands on legitimate irrigators in an effort to halt the trunk slammers is wrong as well.
Oh well, we'll see what happens (or doesn't) soon.


Which further illustrates my point earlier that where the state should really be focusing effort is in enforcement of the rules and trying to catch the unlicensed irrigators rather than hassling the onest aht have gone through the time and expense to get legal. At up to $2500 per occurence, the fines on unlicenesed irrigators could pretty quickly pay for the enforcement effort and then some.

dlee1996
06-12-2008, 04:36 PM
Which further illustrates my point earlier that where the state should really be focusing effort is in enforcement of the rules and trying to catch the unlicensed irrigators rather than hassling the onest aht have gone through the time and expense to get legal. At up to $2500 per occurence, the fines on unlicenesed irrigators could pretty quickly pay for the enforcement effort and then some.

That is kinda the point of having inspectors, is to catch the unlicensed irrigators.

Wet_Boots
06-12-2008, 05:07 PM
That is kinda the point of having inspectors, is to catch the unlicensed irrigators.If the licensed irrigators are phoning in reports on scrubs, and nothing happens, what's going to change?

Inspector Detector prepares to depart for Cheeseville, on a report of Wild Heads running rampant

bcg
06-12-2008, 05:21 PM
Maybe I've missed it but what I read in the changes is that licensed irrigators will now have to submit plans for approval by the inspector and pull permits for installations. I don't see anything about increased enforcement effort, which could have been undertaken without any rule changes.

txgrassguy
06-12-2008, 05:38 PM
Well the problem there is most of the "seasoned" irrigators like being their own boss and do not want to quit there job to work for the city.

No, the problem is the wage whatever city is going to offer for the inspector.
I, for one, make a hellofa lot more than every inspector I know.
And again, the problem isn't in the inspection part, the problem resides with lack of enforcement.
So instead of hiring inspectors, TCEQ should expand the personnel in the enforcement part.

Dripit good
06-12-2008, 06:06 PM
Water is a finite resource and should not be waisted. I hope the Texan inspectors will be effective in their job, without making life too difficult for those who are doing things right.

Enforcement and responsibility certainly are the keys to success. I wish I could accomplish this in my own home. My youngest daughter (at 15) wastes more water than any crap system. She takes 1 hour to shower and burns up the entire tank of hot water. It really chaps my a$$ when it's shower day.

Wet_Boots
06-12-2008, 06:15 PM
Water is a finite resource and should not be waisted. I hope the Texan inspectors will be effective in their job, without making life too difficult for those who are doing things right.

Enforcement and responsibility certainly are the keys to success. I wish I could accomplish this in my own home. My youngest daughter (at 15) wastes more water than any crap system. She takes 1 hour to shower and burns up the entire tank of hot water. It really chaps my a$$ when it's shower day.Be glad you don't have a tankless water heater - the shower might never end.

Waterit
06-12-2008, 06:32 PM
But is this drawing the way it is actually field installed? I can see it more on a commercial job. I know the outlets and switches, faucets and spigots will be drawn on plans, but what about the actual installation of the wires and pipes? Are they drawn in at all? Are they installed the way it is drawn in? Are they changed after it was installed differentially than the drawing?

I assume that like us, the other trades also have to do as-builts on commercial. Residential as always a different story. I'll ask around, see what my buddies in other trades do.

jerryrwm
06-12-2008, 06:36 PM
That is kinda the point of having inspectors, is to catch the unlicensed irrigators.No..the inspector will be busy checking plans and permitted jobs. The inspectors job so far as defined is to ensure the quality of the systems that have been properly permitted.

Now, as to getting the unlicensed guys shut down if only temporarily you don't need to go to TCEQ. Many times they view a complaint submitted by a licensed irrigator as 'sour grapes'. The most effective way I have found is to make an anonymous call to the Plumbing Inspection Department. Just tell them you are with whoever is doing the job, give them the address and tell them to send an inspector for final inspection. And to rub in a little more salt, tell the inspection dept that you need them there ASAP so you can get paid for the job since the homeowner is leaving town and won't pay you until the inspection is done. It worked several times in Kerrville, TX.

Waterit
06-12-2008, 06:37 PM
It really chaps my a$$ when it's shower day.

Which day of the month IS that?:laugh::laugh:

jimmyburg
06-12-2008, 08:32 PM
New Texas rules and regs regarding irrigation systems.

http://www.tceq.state.tx.us/assets/public/legal/rules/rule_lib/adoptions/07027344_ado_clean.pdf

How do the guys in Texas feel about these new changes. I think they will be good. It should do away with all the poorly installed systems. I will be a inspector that will check the new installs out. I have seen a few that have been installed in new 350,000 + new homes and they are terrible. It is clearly some of these guys have no clue what they are doing. Lots of 4 rotor specials, or 10' spray heads on the sidewalk spraying to the curb. So they will be spraying about 5' into the street. See rotors on the back fence and spray heads by the porch. Whatever happened to head to head coverage. I understand not ever yard can have that but these yards are pretty square with no trees. They can do that now but once January 2009 starts I believe the part timers will be done. The city I work for will require that they turn in plans prior to installing the system for review. That way we can catch the 4 rotor fix or the sprays between the curb and the sidewalk.

how can you be an inspector if they dont have the requirments and exam written yet?

jimmyburg
06-12-2008, 08:35 PM
If I have the plans then yes I can figure the friction loss through the pipe, valves and fittings. I will not be the one setting the controller for the watering schedule. Just that there is a separate zone for the flower bed versus the yard.


the rule states that a plan shall be on site, the inspector only job is to see that the installation was put in the way the irrigator drew it; now the cities can add more to it but its up to each city how they want to handle it.

dlee1996
06-12-2008, 08:40 PM
how can you be an inspector if they dont have the requirments and exam written yet?

If you will read it again, it says "I will BE a inspector".:dizzy:

dlee1996
06-12-2008, 08:40 PM
the rule states that a plan shall be on site, the inspector only job is to see that the installation was put in the way the irrigator drew it; now the cities can add more to it but its up to each city how they want to handle it.

Yep and the city I work for will require plans to be turned in.

jimmyburg
06-12-2008, 08:43 PM
Yep and the city I work for will require plans to be turned in.

did you know that the city of fort worth sells water to 26 other cities? and did you know they have to abide by the purches agreement to carry fort worth water requirements?

jimmyburg
06-12-2008, 09:02 PM
If you will read it again, it says "I will BE a inspector".:dizzy:


i have read it more than you ever have, i was there in austin when the commissioners passed it, i was there that same friday when they had a job task meeting to determine what the irrigator and the inspector duties will be come jan 1, 2009 and did you know that chapter 30 will start on june 26. what is your city going to do?

dlee1996
06-12-2008, 09:55 PM
did you know that the city of fort worth sells water to 26 other cities? and did you know they have to abide by the purches agreement to carry fort worth water requirements?

Yes I know that but The City of Ft. Worth does not sell us water.

txgrassguy
06-12-2008, 10:58 PM
dlee1996, do you even have an irrigator's license?
Since you are proudly beating your chest about being an "inspector", what are your qualifications other than getting hired?
The reason I ask that even the Texas Department of Agriculture Inspectors conducting audits on both Private and Commercial Applicators have to be licensed in all categories.

dlee1996
06-12-2008, 11:18 PM
dlee1996, do you even have an irrigator's license?
Since you are proudly beating your chest about being an "inspector", what are your qualifications other than getting hired?
The reason I ask that even the Texas Department of Agriculture Inspectors conducting audits on both Private and Commercial Applicators have to be licensed in all categories.

Yes I do have the irrigator license. I am not "beating my chest". I was just simply asking what some of the thoughts of irrigators were.

AI Inc
06-13-2008, 07:25 AM
Cant see licensing being anything but good. Went to rebuild a pvb for a womwn the wife works with yesterday. Blowout on wrong side of pvb, poly from pvb to the ground, controller mounted on the basement ceiling , sprayers and rotors on same zone.
This is why I usualy dont work in Nashua NH . Thats what ya get when ya have 40+ contractors ( including landscapers) working 1 city.

h2ojoe
06-13-2008, 11:00 AM
Oh Great, just what they need, inspectors who don't know squat about irrigation or hydraulics or pricing are going to "help" them design systems. Texas irrigators are already liscensed, so I guess now the liscense is just a joke?
:hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::ham merhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerh ead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead: :hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead:

What exactly makes you think that inspectors "don't know squat"? I've been in the industry for close to 18 years, in one capacity or another, and I have multiple licenses to show for it. Licensed Irrigator, BPAT, water audit (Texas A&M certificate), Class "A" Water, etc. By posting comments like this, you put YOUR ignorance on display...not mine.

Furthermore, I didn't create the new rules and regs. You should be happy that irrigation systems are going to be inspected. This should push unlicensed, uninformed "irrigation" folks out of the way for serious professionals that take their chosen profession seriously. I for one can assure all of you that the inspection approach to serious professionals will be more along the lines of assistance. As for the unlicensed, uninformed guys...see ya soon!

txgrassguy
06-13-2008, 08:54 PM
dlee1996 - thank you for your reply.

nylan8888
06-13-2008, 11:41 PM
What exactly makes you think that inspectors "don't know squat"? I've been in the industry for close to 18 years, in one capacity or another, and I have multiple licenses to show for it. Licensed Irrigator, BPAT, water audit (Texas A&M certificate), Class "A" Water, etc. By posting comments like this, you put YOUR ignorance on display...not mine.

Furthermore, I didn't create the new rules and regs. You should be happy that irrigation systems are going to be inspected. This should push unlicensed, uninformed "irrigation" folks out of the way for serious professionals that take their chosen profession seriously. I for one can assure all of you that the inspection approach to serious professionals will be more along the lines of assistance. As for the unlicensed, uninformed guys...see ya soon!

I would be surprised to see someone with that amount of experience take a job as an inspector. I don't have a problem with liscensing or inspection, only with the idea of taking an individual with no experience in the irrigation industry and having them tell me, 16 years experience, how to design an irrigation system and where I should and should not put a spray head based on what they may have read in a book with no real world knowledge. As for assistance, I don't think there will be any assistance needed from a rookie who knows squat. Thanks but no thanks.

Summit L & D
06-14-2008, 01:38 AM
Having recently taken (and passed with high scores) the Texas LI exam, I can say that I feel the test was way to easy. Sure, further enforcement in the industry might be a good thing, and also another hassle. But the main problem lies with the jokers that are barely passing the test and making it into the business.

Someone may be able to confirm this, but I've been hearing that all new LI will have to apprentice for a time, much akin to what plumbers go through. Is this a fact? And if so, this measure should definitely help the industry.

Waterit
06-14-2008, 01:43 AM
Having recently taken (and passed with high scores) the Texas LI exam, I can say that I feel the test was way to easy. Sure, further enforcement in the industry might be a good thing, and also another hassle. But the main problem lies with the jokers that are barely passing the test and making it into the business.

Someone may be able to confirm this, but I've been hearing that all new LI will have to apprentice for a time, much akin to what plumbers go through. Is this a fact? And if so, this measure should definitely help the industry.

Wonder if that applies to inspectors too.:confused:

Waterit
06-14-2008, 01:46 AM
I would be surprised to see someone with that amount of experience take a job as an inspector. I don't have a problem with liscensing or inspection, only with the idea of taking an individual with no experience in the irrigation industry and having them tell me, 16 years experience, how to design an irrigation system and where I should and should not put a spray head based on what they may have read in a book with no real world knowledge. As for assistance, I don't think there will be any assistance needed from a rookie who knows squat. Thanks but no thanks.

Hear hear! Same goes for civil engineers and landscape architects, who should have to spend some time in the trenches before ever being allowed to THINK they can design a system!

LawnMastersTx
06-14-2008, 10:42 AM
We can debate experience vs. passing a test on this subject, and it is a very good point to debate. The law is going into place though as it is, but the law is not what is bothering me.

My thing is, are they going to crack down on the unexperienced, unlicensed irrigators out there. I do not have the experience that some of you guys do, and thats why i pass off a lot of work that is over my head until i get that experience. But what gets me is the lack of care in regards to unlicensed irrigators from the TECQ. If they want to save water why not take out the "handyman" guys or jorge from mexico.

I look around these forums at the work most of you guys do and I have so much respect for what you all do. The work looks great, it saves on water (most of the time) and it makes me proud to be part of irrgation.

txgrassguy
06-14-2008, 12:44 PM
Essentially what passing an exam allows is the newly licensed an opportunity to allegedly
participate in this industry at a level the trunk slammer cannot approach.
What the exam doesn't allow for is the requisite experience required to properly design both a water and cost efficient system towards a specific turfgrass site either commercial or residential.
I do know that structural pesticide applicators in Texas require a six-month supervised period under a licensed applicator prior to sitting for the relevant exam.
A process such as this would go a long way towards eliminating a considerable amount of the errors I see in systems installed by the newly licensed less experienced irrigators.
Coupled with an aggressive enforcement action much like the Texas Department of Agriculture has governing the commercial applicators and structural applicators would have a much greater impact on the unlicensed installers than additional bureaucratic paperwork.

Kiril
06-14-2008, 12:54 PM
What the exam doesn't allow for is the requisite experience required to properly design both a water and cost efficient system towards a specific turfgrass site either commercial or residential.

Shame given design comprises about 90% of any irrigation system.
IMHO, until "licenses" require a minimum of a bachelors in a related field + experience, they serve nothing more than paying your dues to the state.

Wet_Boots
06-14-2008, 01:12 PM
I dunno, some of those exam questions look like real toughies.....

Mike Leary
06-14-2008, 02:02 PM
[QUOTE=LawnMastersTx;
The work looks great, it saves on water (most of the time) and it makes me proud to be part of irrigation.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the compliment, we try to be professional.

h2ojoe
06-14-2008, 04:30 PM
Wow, some of you seem to think very highly of yourselves! If you're going to approach the licensed irrigation inspectors with the degree of hostility that you exhibit in this forum...good luck. For whatever reason, you seem to think that an inspector with one year of field experience and a thourough knowledge of state laws, regulations, ordinances, codes and rules is less qualified than YOU to evaluate an irrigation system's proficiency. I recently hired an inspector with no experience. We put him through irrigation school...he passed the exam with flying colors on the first time. We sent him to BPAT school...he passed the exam with a 92 on the first try. We sent him to water audit school...he got a 98 on that exam. Since then, he has been riding around with me inspecting irrigation systems.I can honestly say that his knowledge exceeds, by a large margin, that of the average irrigator...even if he doesn't dig a hole as fast as you do. He has elected to take on a very helpful attitude instead of "cracking the whip" on hard working contractors. He has also run a handful of unlicensed guys out of town...the same guys that come in behind you (the all-knowing smart asses passing judgement) with a bid that the customer can't refuse...because they are not pulling permits, paying for licenses, registering with the city, and conducting inspections necessary to ensure public safety.

So, if you're bashing this new requirement, perhaps you should have taken the opportunity to comment on the proposed rule-making before it was too late. Obviously, you were too preoccupied with trying to balance on the pedestal you've perched yourself on. Not to mention, I have seen my fair share of "true professionals" install inefficient, sub-standard irrigation systems recently. You too need the assistance that these inspectors will offer.

I have to ask myself why some of you are so upset by the new regs. What now seems apparant is that you don't want your work reviewed by anyone...experienced or not. I just wonder why...(arrogance, sub-standard work, etc.). Who knows? Time will tell.

h2ojoe
06-14-2008, 04:44 PM
I would be surprised to see someone with that amount of experience take a job as an inspector. I don't have a problem with liscensing or inspection, only with the idea of taking an individual with no experience in the irrigation industry and having them tell me, 16 years experience, how to design an irrigation system and where I should and should not put a spray head based on what they may have read in a book with no real world knowledge. As for assistance, I don't think there will be any assistance needed from a rookie who knows squat. Thanks but no thanks.

Is a policeman that joined the force yesterday qualified to read a radar gun? If you're speeding...you're speeding. Same holds true here my friend. And, if an inspector offered to show you how to comply with local ordinances, would you accept his help/advice? If not, why? I have always tried to give my customers the best product possible. Inspections WILL help run unlicensed, unqualified contractors out of town, making it easier for professionals to sell their services. In turn, citizens get a better product and the profession thrives.

txgrassguy
06-14-2008, 04:59 PM
Joe, for clarifications sake, to whom are you addressing your last two posts?
And for what it is worth, I DID comment upon the proposed rule changes.
I HAVE made multiple comments to the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality.
I HAVE turned in unlicensed installers - all to naught.
Once the State of Texas begins to seriously enforce the existing regulations additional bureaucracy is just raising the cost of business to no avail.
The State of Texas needs to enforce what is already in existence, not just pass new laws.

dlee1996
06-14-2008, 07:45 PM
The State of Texas needs to enforce what is already in existence, not just pass new laws.

Most of the "new" laws are already been in place and have been for awhile. They are just getting inspectors to enforce them.

Wet_Boots
06-14-2008, 07:49 PM
You don't need new inspectors to enforce existing laws. Besides, what can mister inspector do, besides make a report to a person of genuine authority?

dlee1996
06-14-2008, 07:52 PM
You don't need new inspectors to enforce existing laws. Besides, what can mister inspector do, besides make a report to a person of genuine authority?

So who do you get to enforce the rules and regs? The inspector can just shut the job down, and it does not go in service until it meets state and local requirements.

Wet_Boots
06-14-2008, 07:55 PM
I like the plumbing inspectors. Comply with toxic-rated backflow requirements, and carry on, good sir.

nylan8888
06-15-2008, 09:45 AM
Is a policeman that joined the force yesterday qualified to read a radar gun? If you're speeding...you're speeding. Same holds true here my friend. And, if an inspector offered to show you how to comply with local ordinances, would you accept his help/advice? If not, why? I have always tried to give my customers the best product possible. Inspections WILL help run unlicensed, unqualified contractors out of town, making it easier for professionals to sell their services. In turn, citizens get a better product and the profession thrives.

No, he is NOT qualified to read a radar gun. He must first go through very intense, vigorous training, called the police academy.

How are inspections going to run unliscensed contractors out of town? Are the unliscensed contractors now pulling permits, submitting designs and requesting for you to inspect their work? I would find that to be extremelyy funny!!!!! It is merely another way for the city to get another fee from legitimate contractors. Once again it is all about the money the city can generate under a poorly designed program. As someone else stated previously, most inspectors can be bought for a donut and a cup of coffee.

And just because a contractor complies with local codes does not mean a better system has been installed only with whatever moronic standard they enforcing this week.

To give you an example, some cities here in Oklahoma require you to install an above ground PVB

You have to pour a concrete pad around it ( doesn't matter what the pad looks like, it can be the ugliest sloppiest mess of unfinished concrete you have ever seen as long as it holds up the rock )

You have to have a GFI plug within 3' of the PVB, heat tape held on with BLACK duct tape

All covered with an insulated fake rock (you can't use any other type of enclosure, must be insulated fake rock made with a drain in the lower portion to prevent the rock from filling up with water:hammerhead: duh the rock is open on the bottom and the water would run out anyway )

If one inspector shows up and the rock is bolted down, FAIL, He couldn't look under the rock, if another inspector shows up and the rock is not bolted down, FAIL, rock is not secored to pad. Either way it is another $35.00 reinspection fee.

All this on an acreage with a well, 1000' from the nearest electrical source.

If you are connecting to a residential service water meter, most are by the edge of the street, you are required to install a ball or gate valve at the point of connection, then the PVB is installed up by the house, so you can plug in your heat tape to an external GFI. Entire trench must be left open so the inspector can make sure every inch of the line is at least 24" deep. Sometimes this can mean 250' of open trench, inspector has 7 days to inspect, if it rains before he gets there, FAIL, it must all be dug out again by hand because he couldn't see enough of the line. If you don't leave the valve box to cover the ball valve by the street laying on the ground, FAIL , because you just might not have one and he can't be sure.


So, tell me, is any of this helping to install a better system or helping to run off unliscensed contractors?

Who pays all the extra inspection fees and labor and fuel cost? THE CONTRACTOR!
Who benefits? ONLY THE CITY!!!

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-15-2008, 09:54 AM
Nylan-That is all happening in Oklahoma. Sounds like TX would be a better situation than that. Any TX irrigators with inspector horror stories? When I tell war stories with my fellow irrigators I rarely hear a "this friggin inspector story". I remember at one time Denton had crazy AVB codes. We had to put an AVB 20' in the air to meet code. The complex sloped uphill from the meter and the AVB which was the only permissible BF at the time needed to be 6" higher than the highest head.

Wet_Boots
06-15-2008, 10:28 AM
There must be a barometric loop story out there.

Dirty Water
06-15-2008, 10:59 AM
There must be a barometric loop story out there.

Fimco would have only needed to go 16' more feet in the air for a barometric loop to work.

CAPT Stream Rotar
06-15-2008, 11:20 AM
Fimco would have only needed to go 16' more feet in the air for a barometric loop to work.

its 10 feet here in Mass....

Wet_Boots
06-15-2008, 11:39 AM
its 10 feet here in Mass....What, you repealed the laws of physics? That only happens in Roadrunner cartoons.

dlee1996
06-16-2008, 09:15 AM
How are inspections going to run unliscensed contractors out of town? Are the unliscensed contractors now pulling permits, submitting designs and requesting for you to inspect their work? I would find that to be extremelyy funny!!!!! It is merely another way for the city to get another fee from legitimate contractors. Once again it is all about the money the city can generate under a poorly designed program. As someone else stated previously, most inspectors can be bought for a donut and a cup of coffee.

The unlicensed guys will be run out of town because if they are caught we will inform the homeowner that this system has to be installed by a licensed irrigator or the resident will be fined. It is easy for a resident to check and see if the license is current by going to www.tceq.com.

dlee1996
06-16-2008, 09:16 AM
Who pays all the extra inspection fees and labor and fuel cost? THE CONTRACTOR!
Who benefits? ONLY THE CITY!!!

Of course the contractor will pay all the fees. Who else is? The contractor will pass the fees onto the customer.:dizzy:

Waterit
06-16-2008, 10:46 AM
All this Texas licensing talk - where can I get a copy of a licensing test? Not gonna move there, just want to see what test is like.

Wet_Boots
06-16-2008, 10:58 AM
All this Texas licensing talk - where can I get a copy of a licensing test? Not gonna move there, just want to see what test is like.I already posted one of the multiple choice questions
(http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=2373807&postcount=104)

Bruiser
06-16-2008, 03:35 PM
I already posted one of the multiple choice questions
(http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=2373807&postcount=104)


:rolleyes:

Waterit
06-16-2008, 05:27 PM
I already posted one of the multiple choice questions (http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=2373807&postcount=104)

Gee, even us Florida guys know that one:weightlifter::laugh::laugh:

h2ojoe
06-16-2008, 11:36 PM
Nylan-That is all happening in Oklahoma. Sounds like TX would be a better situation than that. Any TX irrigators with inspector horror stories? When I tell war stories with my fellow irrigators I rarely hear a "this friggin inspector story". I remember at one time Denton had crazy AVB codes. We had to put an AVB 20' in the air to meet code. The complex sloped uphill from the meter and the AVB which was the only permissible BF at the time needed to be 6" higher than the highest head.

FIMCO,

The 6" above the highest head is a regulation set by USC (University of Southern California). I'm sure you know that...I'm just stating that for the out-of-state irrigators. Was there an ordinance in Denton that prohibited the relocation of the backflow device? I know that some municipalities require thatthe BF be located in the easement. Sounds to me like common sense failed to prevail.

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-17-2008, 12:06 AM
FIMCO,

The 6" above the highest head is a regulation set by USC (University of Southern California). I'm sure you know that...I'm just stating that for the out-of-state irrigators. Was there an ordinance in Denton that prohibited the relocation of the backflow device? I know that some municipalities require thatthe BF be located in the easement. Sounds to me like common sense failed to prevail.

This was 20 some odd years ago. Doubt the problem would exist today. It was a cost issue. Running the AVB to the back of the property and then back to our 6" valve boxes in the front would have cost like an extra 250.00!!!!!

TPnTX
06-17-2008, 08:00 AM
In NE Texas where new construction is constant a lot of things are about to change dramatically.

1 commercial jobs. You can't possibly win a bid in most cases by prices a job off the plans. You simply price it based on how you install it which will not be anywhere near the planned project. The inspector comes out sees the closest zone looks great and moves on down the road.

2 Since you now have to have a Licesned person on the job at all times? Very productive. I don't think they thought that one through.

3 you got south of the border workers out there doing residential jobs all day long throwing water at 250.00 a zone. That will put an end to that.

A lot of fast growing cities around here never reach 20k before the population growth pass hits another city limts sigh. So a lot of this will remain the same.

MP rotors(not toro) look into them if you want to be cutting edge.

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-17-2008, 08:39 AM
In NE Texas where new construction is constant a lot of things are about to change dramatically.

1 commercial jobs. You can't possibly win a bid in most cases by prices a job off the plans. You simply price it based on how you install it which will not be anywhere near the planned project. The inspector comes out sees the closest zone looks great and moves on down the road.

2 Since you now have to have a Licesned person on the job at all times? Very productive. I don't think they thought that one through.

3 you got south of the border workers out there doing residential jobs all day long throwing water at 250.00 a zone. That will put an end to that.

A lot of fast growing cities around here never reach 20k before the population growth pass hits another city limts sigh. So a lot of this will remain the same.

MP rotors(not toro) look into them if you want to be cutting edge.

Interesting read. I think having a LI on the job at all times has some merit. This biz of sending people out who are 10/hr employees to do service work under another persons LI at 95/hr has to stop. LI on all service jobs as well in my book.

Dripit good
06-17-2008, 08:49 AM
dlee,
I think that a couple of these guys know that their yankee-systems wouldn't fly here. Oklahoma is one of the worst in the nation...no regulation at all. Maybe we could just send our unlicensed contractors up there where they will be right at home!

I sure wish I were half as smart as "wet boobs" thinks he is.

Is your goal to help the community that you serve, or just to cause problems buy insulting others? I suggest you need to be more helpful in achieving your main objective and try to do a good job and lose the negativity you are displaying toward others. If I were your supervisor a reprimand would be in order.

Waterit
06-17-2008, 10:16 AM
Interesting read. I think having a LI on the job at all times has some merit. LI on all service jobs as well in my book.

Does TX also require the GC's, electricians, plumbers, etc. to have licensed people present at all times? If not, why not, if they are going to require it of irrigation guys?

This biz of sending people out who are 10/hr employees to do service work under another persons LI at 95/hr has to stop. LI on all service jobs as well in my book.

If the 10/hr guy is properly trained, as he's supposed to be anyway, what's the problem?

Wet_Boots
06-17-2008, 10:23 AM
Interesting read. I think having a LI on the job at all times has some merit. This biz of sending people out who are 10/hr employees to do service work under another persons LI at 95/hr has to stop. LI on all service jobs as well in my book.Clearly, someone has never heard of the term "plumber's mechanic"

dlee1996
06-17-2008, 11:58 AM
Is your goal to help the community that you serve, or just to cause problems buy insulting others? I suggest you need to be more helpful in achieving your main objective and try to do a good job and lose the negativity you are displaying toward others. If I were your supervisor a reprimand would be in order.

I made the original post asking what irrigators thoughts on it were. You guys jumped on the insulting wagon. Inspecting irrigation will help the community get a good system instead of something that will waste their water and run their water bill up.

Kiril
06-17-2008, 12:26 PM
Inspecting irrigation will help the community get a good system instead of something that will waste their water and run their water bill up.

If I had a nickel for every POS, poorly designed, improperly scheduled irrigation system I see installed in these parts by so called "licensed" contractors .......

Sorry. but I can't agree with you unless designs are a part of the "inspection" process and high quality materials are required for ALL components of the system.

Furthermore, the most efficient irrigation system in the world is worthless without proper scheduling. Is proper scheduling part of the inspection process? Even if it is, how do they ensure the schedule isn't changed by the HO, daily controller checks?

Heck, why don't we just forget all the silly nonsense and force everyone to buy controllers that are centrally controlled by the city. Then the city can stick it to the public even more through "management" fees. Then they can use that money to put camera's at every house to ensure that someone isn't watering their yard manually.

h2ojoe
06-17-2008, 12:34 PM
In NE Texas where new construction is constant a lot of things are about to change dramatically.

2 Since you now have to have a Licesned person on the job at all times? Very productive. I don't think they thought that one through.


In Texas, currently, a licensed irrigator (or installer for that matter) does not have to be on-site at all times. The regulations require that an irrigator provide direct supervision...but never defines the term. By signing associated documents and placing his/her seal on them, the licensed irrigator accepts professional responsibility for the work detailed on them. It's a slippery slope.

Beginning on January 1, 2010, a licensed irrigator or an irrigation technician (license established by the new rulemaking) will have to be on-site at all times. Until then, we municipalities can only require that one be present if an ordinance is passed specifically requiring it.

I hope that helps.

h2ojoe
06-17-2008, 12:37 PM
Is your goal to help the community that you serve, or just to cause problems buy insulting others? I suggest you need to be more helpful in achieving your main objective and try to do a good job and lose the negativity you are displaying toward others. If I were your supervisor a reprimand would be in order.

True...consider this my printed retraction. But, in all fairness, I don't see your condemnation of his comments anywhere on this forum. The insults didn't start with me. I bet you knew that though.

Dripit good
06-17-2008, 12:48 PM
I made the original post asking what irrigators thoughts on it were. You guys jumped on the insulting wagon. Inspecting irrigation will help the community get a good system instead of something that will waste their water and run their water bill up.

Are you referring to proper maintenance and scheduling practices to curb water waste and contamination, or new fees, submitals, approvals, inspections, etc. regarding new installations?

In the future when you ask people for their thoughts, don't disregard those that don't float your boat. Try to understand where they are coming from, and if any value exists there. Remember, you were the one who wanted feedback on this topic.

h2ojoe
06-17-2008, 12:50 PM
If I had a nickel for every POS, poorly designed, improperly scheduled irrigation system I see installed in these parts by so called "licensed" contractors .......
And your suggestion would be...
Sorry. but I can't agree with you unless designs are a part of the "inspection" process and high quality materials are required for ALL components of the system.
Plan review IS one of the requirements. Our new regulations require that plans be kept on-site at all times during construction. Cities are not permitted to endorse one product over another...I wish we could.
Furthermore, the most efficient irrigation system in the world is worthless without proper scheduling. Is proper scheduling part of the inspection process? Even if it is, how do they ensure the schedule isn't changed by the HO, daily controller checks?
All new installations are supposed to come with seasonal (winter, spring, summer, fall) watering schedules based on current/real time ET or monthly historical ET data, monthly effective rainfall estimates, plant landscape coefficient factors, and site factors. Cities, as you might suspect, can not look over the homeowner's shoulder. Hopefully, given the right information, which any irrigator worth his oats can provide, the schedule will be followed. If not, most cities have water conservation plans that provide for enforcement activities for those that refuse to follow the advice of licensed professionals.
Heck, why don't we just forget all the silly nonsense and force everyone to buy controllers that are centrally controlled by the city. Then the city can stick it to the public even more through "management" fees. Then they can use that money to put camera's at every house to ensure that someone isn't watering their yard manually.
You lost me there. You got a bit...Mel Gibson / Conspiracy Theory on us.

I hope that helps

evergreensolutions
06-17-2008, 12:52 PM
http://www.bjacked.net/LuvToHunt/forums/phpBB2/modules/gallery/albums/album01/Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg

Dripit good
06-17-2008, 12:55 PM
True...consider this my printed retraction. But, in all fairness, I don't see your condemnation of his comments anywhere on this forum. The insults didn't start with me. I bet you knew that though.

I think the mods took it upon themselves to take care of some of the ugliness.

Kiril
06-17-2008, 12:59 PM
I hope that helps

Not really.

h2ojoe
06-17-2008, 01:00 PM
Are you referring to proper maintenance and scheduling practices to curb water waste and contamination, or new fees, submitals, approvals, inspections, etc. regarding new installations?

In the future when you ask people for their thoughts, don't disregard those that don't float your boat. Try to understand where they are coming from, and if any value exists there. Remember, you were the one who wanted feedback on this topic.

I think that TCEQ (our licensing body) had very "pie in the sky" intentions here. They are hoping that, by introducing a requirement for inspections and approvals, water waste would be limited by efficient scheduling and maintenance.

Again, I think you need to go back and read all of the comments. Most of them are negative (and insulting) and from out-of-state.

And, to be clear, value exists in constructive criticism...not donut bribery jokes and ass from elbow insults.

h2ojoe
06-17-2008, 01:01 PM
Not really.

I can't say that surprises me much

Dripit good
06-17-2008, 01:07 PM
I think that TCEQ (our licensing body) had very "pie in the sky" intentions here. They are hoping that, by introducing a requirement for inspections and approvals, water waste would be limited by efficient scheduling and maintenance.

Again, I think you need to go back and read all of the comments. Most of them are negative (and insulting) and from out-of-state.

And, to be clear, value exists in constructive criticism...not donut bribery jokes and ass from elbow insults.

Hey now, you admitted your preference are brownies! :usflag:

h2ojoe
06-17-2008, 01:08 PM
Hey now, you admitted your preference are brownies! :usflag:

I prefer Pepsi over Coke as well...until we pass an ordinance that forbids it!

Wet_Boots
06-17-2008, 01:11 PM
No Royal Crown and Moon Pies?

Kiril
06-17-2008, 01:13 PM
I can't say that surprises me much

And why is that? Because I don't believe that government needs to babysit home owners, or that most city inspections are a joke. I was at a place yesterday that was just sold recently. Glaring, highly visible, code violations were missed on pre-sale inspection with respect to the irrigation system. You can have all the regulations you want, but if the inspectors don't see violations, or look the other way, they mean nothing except additional financial burden on the public.

h2ojoe
06-17-2008, 01:14 PM
No Royal Crown and Moon Pies?

Honestly, after the beating I have taken on this site, Royal Crown sounds pretty good.:dizzy:

h2ojoe
06-17-2008, 01:33 PM
And why is that? Because I don't believe that government needs to babysit home owners, or that most city inspections are a joke. I was at a place yesterday that was just sold recently. Glaring, highly visible, code violations were missed on pre-sale inspection with respect to the irrigation system. You can have all the regulations you want, but if the inspectors don't see violations, or look the other way, they mean nothing except additional financial burden on the public.

Ok, so we agree on the following...
1- I don't want to babysit homeowners either.
2- If inspectors can't or won't see violations there is no point.
3- The financial burden is obvious.

This is where I don't think we see eye to eye...
1- The state of Texas has adopted these new rules in an attempt to do a GOOD thing. They are not getting any funding from the cities that enforce the rules. And, it is a financial burden on the cities as well.
2- We HAVE to conserve water. In Texas, even more specifically Region C (where I live) the population is expected to grow from 5 million to over 13 million by 2060. Without creating new reservoirs, our available water is expected to decrease by 9% over the same time period. In my city, our water treatment plant produced 403 million gallons of water in August of 07'. Just 6 months later, in February of 08', it produced just 177 million gallons of water. Assuming that half of our population didn't skip town, what behaviors (in terms of water use) changed. People still washed their clothes, did the dishes, showered and brushed their teeth. Outdoor water usage dropped dramatically. According to the Irrigation Association, as much as 50-60% of all water used outdoors is wasted due to inefficient watering practices. Before the state, and more importantly - the federal government, will allow us to build additional reservoirs, we have to show that water conservation is a high priority. As I've already explained, landscape irrigation is where you get the most bang for the buck. If by requiring contractors to be licensed and follow regulations we can save water and eliminate some really tough choices later, don't we owe it to the public to do that?

If it becomes necessary to make a choice between showers and flowers...the choice is an easy one. I would have to let my lawn go brown and flush that bandit down the toilet. THAT, sir, would not hurt the irrigation industry, it would abolish it.

nylan8888
06-17-2008, 01:53 PM
If by requiring contractors to be licensed and follow regulations we can save water and eliminate some really tough choices later, don't we owe it to the public to do that?



Your not understanding the point of irritation.

We are all for water conservation and quality systems. We just don't think someone with no actual field experience is the right person to "help" us design and inspect systems based on what he has read in some manual. There are a lot of inept inspectors that are a pain in our collective a$$ everyday for no other reason than they can be or are too proud to admit they may be wrong so they force their ineptness on others.

dlee1996
06-17-2008, 02:14 PM
Your not understanding the point of irritation.

We are all for water conservation and quality systems. We just don't think someone with no actual field experience is the right person to "help" us design and inspect systems based on what he has read in some manual. There are a lot of inept inspectors that are a pain in our collective a$$ everyday for no other reason than they can be or are too proud to admit they may be wrong so they force their ineptness on others.

Well apparently some of the irrigators need "help" in their designs.

h2ojoe
06-17-2008, 02:54 PM
Your not understanding the point of irritation.

We are all for water conservation and quality systems. We just don't think someone with no actual field experience is the right person to "help" us design and inspect systems based on what he has read in some manual. There are a lot of inept inspectors that are a pain in our collective a$$ everyday for no other reason than they can be or are too proud to admit they may be wrong so they force their ineptness on others.

I won't (can't) argue that point. True, I have met some of the guys you talk about. Does this sound familiar?

"You can't spray water over the sidewalk." - Inspector

"Why not, it's in my backyard. All of the water runs off into my own lawn." - Contractor

"The regs clearly state that you can't irrigate impervious surfaces." - Inspector

This argument would drive me nuts if I were the contractor. What's sad is, that's a true story. You are going to get that from some of them now and again. Just like you are going to get an irrigator that couldn't calculate the hydraulics of his own system if you spotted him half of the math.

I will, as a service to the contractors that have earned it, know my job well enough to differentiate between incomprehensible and inconsequential deficiencies. I am afterall a contractor myself. My focus has simply shifted from the service industry to regulation.

The best advice I can give you is...know the regulations well enough to defend your work. There is always an appeals process. He works for someone. Chances are, his boss answers to someone that was elected. Making a citizen comment at a city council meeting goes a long way.

Waterit
06-17-2008, 06:30 PM
Well apparently some of the irrigators need "help" in their designs.

Is Texas helping them GET that help, by pointing out deficiencies and/or offering education? Just taking a red marker to a plan isn't help.

Honestly, after the beating I have taken on this site, Royal Crown sounds pretty good.:dizzy:

Come to Pensacola Beach, getcha a Bushwacker.:drinkup:

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-17-2008, 08:07 PM
Ok, so we agree on the following...
1- I don't want to babysit homeowners either.
2- If inspectors can't or won't see violations there is no point.
3- The financial burden is obvious.

This is where I don't think we see eye to eye...
1- The state of Texas has adopted these new rules in an attempt to do a GOOD thing. They are not getting any funding from the cities that enforce the rules. And, it is a financial burden on the cities as well.
2- We HAVE to conserve water. In Texas, even more specifically Region C (where I live) the population is expected to grow from 5 million to over 13 million by 2060. Without creating new reservoirs, our available water is expected to decrease by 9% over the same time period. In my city, our water treatment plant produced 403 million gallons of water in August of 07'. Just 6 months later, in February of 08', it produced just 177 million gallons of water. Assuming that half of our population didn't skip town, what behaviors (in terms of water use) changed. People still washed their clothes, did the dishes, showered and brushed their teeth. Outdoor water usage dropped dramatically. According to the Irrigation Association, as much as 50-60% of all water used outdoors is wasted due to inefficient watering practices. Before the state, and more importantly - the federal government, will allow us to build additional reservoirs, we have to show that water conservation is a high priority. As I've already explained, landscape irrigation is where you get the most bang for the buck. If by requiring contractors to be licensed and follow regulations we can save water and eliminate some really tough choices later, don't we owe it to the public to do that?

If it becomes necessary to make a choice between showers and flowers...the choice is an easy one. I would have to let my lawn go brown and flush that bandit down the toilet. THAT, sir, would not hurt the irrigation industry, it would abolish it.

Ditto.... Frankly as a Texas irrigator I like H2OJoe. Not saying all inspectors will be as ballsy as him to take the fight right to the contractors but at least he is available for a conversation on a major issue. Home irrigation is a luxury and a privilege.

Yes I sat at the front of the class in school and all my teachers liked me.:p

Wet_Boots
06-17-2008, 08:29 PM
Yes I sat at the front of the class in school and all my teachers liked me.:pTeacher's Pet!!

dlee1996
06-17-2008, 10:01 PM
Is Texas helping them GET that help, by pointing out deficiencies and/or offering education? Just taking a red marker to a plan isn't help.



Come to Pensacola Beach, getcha a Bushwacker.:drinkup:

We are planning on putting a class together in the future to let irrigators know what will be expected.

txgrassguy
06-17-2008, 10:01 PM
I had an inspection last week in a smaller city I usually do not work, called for the inspection but had to leave after the double check passed.
On site today, finished wiring as the crew was laying sod and a scrub comes up to me asking if I want to "sell" any of the palletized sod - dude actually said "my boss wouldn't notice".
He expression was priceless when I said I'm the boss. Then he asks to purchase some heads/nozzles off of my trailer. The look on his face was priceless when I said "Sure - just show me your license first".
Wait, it gets better.
Just then a city truck pulls up. Yep, the code inspection guy.
The other dude beats feet when the code guy says to me that my install was the nicest he has seen to date. So I'm feeling good.
I casually mention that the dude who took off wanted some irrigation heads, the code inspector goes after this dude and when I am driving away I see the dude's truck, stopped by the local cops with the code enforcement inspector there.
The dude didn't look to happen then, thats for sure.
Now I don't know what the cop was writing the dude for, but I spoke to the code enforcement guy and was informed with the info obtained from the cop, the code guy was going to watch out for this dude even adjusting heads let alone replacing ones he damaged.
This is the type of enforcement action needed.

DanaMac
06-17-2008, 10:47 PM
Of all the the other things cops and inspectors could be doing, and they have to beat down the lowly irrigation guy.....

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-17-2008, 10:54 PM
Of all the the other things cops and inspectors could be doing, and they have to beat down the lowly irrigation guy.....

He wasn't Licensed. Deserve to get whatever comes to him. Unlicensed irrigators are borderline thieves stealing from those who play by the rules in Texas.

DanaMac
06-17-2008, 11:45 PM
He wasn't Licensed. Deserve to get whatever comes to him. Unlicensed irrigators are borderline thieves stealing from those who play by the rules in Texas.

So are illegal immigrants. Shouldn't we have more folks trying to catch and send them back, rather than playing sprinkler cops?

Wet_Boots
06-18-2008, 12:11 AM
So are illegal immigrants. Shouldn't we have more folks trying to catch and send them back, rather than playing sprinkler cops?Then who works at WalMart, and who works on the Tyson chicken processing line?

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-18-2008, 12:25 AM
So are illegal immigrants. Shouldn't we have more folks trying to catch and send them back, rather than playing sprinkler cops?

Should catch them all in my opinion. Irs audits very few returns but enough to keep the great majority honest. Same with LI cops and border patrol I would hope.

h2ojoe
06-18-2008, 10:23 AM
Come to Pensacola Beach, getcha a Bushwacker.:drinkup:

A Bushwacker sounds fine indeed

Kiril
06-18-2008, 10:59 AM
2- We HAVE to conserve water..

And that is the only thing that matters. So instead of creating a mess of new regulations in an attempt to patch a major problem (water waste), solve the problem at the source.

For example:

1) Substantially reduce or eliminate water intensive landscapes (eg. turf)

2) Require all new construction to install regionally appropriate landscapes.

3) Provide homeowner incentives to convert their water intensive landscapes into more regionally appropriate landscapes.

4) Provide city wide gray water systems for landscape irrigation

.
.
.

My point -> the long term answer to conserving water isn't more efficient irrigation, it is more efficient landscapes.

You might want to investigate the LEED program and make regulations that are consistent with the goals of that program. For example, all water efficiency credits are REQUIRED!

Stop wasting the publics money with a bunch of bureaucratic *&#$*#*# ( edit: nonsense) and provide real solutions to the problems that face you.

If all the residential landscapes in TX were to eliminating turf in front yards, or were to reduce their turf acreage by 50-75%, how much potable water would be saved?

I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again. Residential/commercial irrigation is a dead end occupation.

dlee1996
06-18-2008, 03:12 PM
And that is the only thing that matters. So instead of creating a mess of new regulations in an attempt to patch a major problem (water waste), solve the problem at the source.

These are not all new regulations. Most have been on the book for awhile now. They are just going to be enforced now.

Wet_Boots
06-18-2008, 03:28 PM
These are not all new regulations. Most have been on the book for awhile now. They are just going to be enforced now.They need you to enforce them? Were these existing regulations created without any plans regarding enforcement?

Bruiser
06-18-2008, 03:46 PM
Not enough enforcers. Now that they have an inspector in most cities, they now have enforcement.

Wet_Boots
06-18-2008, 03:57 PM
But then, to the onlooker, the question then becomes "When did Texas cease to create incompetent regulations? Or have they ceased?"

h2ojoe
06-18-2008, 04:55 PM
And that is the only thing that matters. So instead of creating a mess of new regulations in an attempt to patch a major problem (water waste), solve the problem at the source.

For example:

1) Substantially reduce or eliminate water intensive landscapes (eg. turf)

2) Require all new construction to install regionally appropriate landscapes.

3) Provide homeowner incentives to convert their water intensive landscapes into more regionally appropriate landscapes.

4) Provide city wide gray water systems for landscape irrigation

.
.
.

My point -> the long term answer to conserving water isn't more efficient irrigation, it is more efficient landscapes.

You might want to investigate the LEED program and make regulations that are consistent with the goals of that program. For example, all water efficiency credits are REQUIRED!

Stop wasting the publics money with a bunch of bureaucratic *&#$*#*# ( edit: nonsense) and provide real solutions to the problems that face you.

If all the residential landscapes in TX were to eliminating turf in front yards, or were to reduce their turf acreage by 50-75%, how much potable water would be saved?

I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again. Residential/commercial irrigation is a dead end occupation.

You sound like a politician now...

"I will make sure every citizen has healthcare!"
"I will build more schools!"
"I will build more hospitals!"
"I will do all of this AND lower taxes!"

Let me be perfectly clear...Texas is not in the same situation as California. I assume that you can follow this logic because you commented on regionally appropriate landscapes several times. As you know, California is one of the most forward-thinking states in terms of water conservation...out of necessity! Population and availability have already had the showdown (so to speak). Luckily, in Texas, we have not yet reached the critical point where a choice must be made between showers and flowers. The Texas Water Development Board has recognized the need to implement conservation measures now. The Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (our licensing body) has been mandated by the legislature to enact regulations that do the following: (1) identify responsibilities of licensed irrigators and irrigation technicians (a new license created by the rules), (2) establish and enforce more stringent rules pertaining to design, installation, and operation of irrigation systems, and (3) work toward water conservation.

The LEED program is great! But, can you imagine the sort of resistance we would get to that program? Think about it. You have cried, whined, pissed, and moaned about our enforcement policies and you don't even live here! Now you argue in favor of a program that would all but eliminate irrigation in our state as we know it? Get real man. Pick a side and stay on it.

My favorite comment was, "Stop wasting the publics money with a bunch of bureaucratic *&#$*#*# ( edit: nonsense) and provide real solutions to the problems that face you."
Then you completely contradict yourself, "Provide city wide gray water systems for landscape irrigation."
Let me school you in the ways of public money. Any sort of gray water system provided by the city would have to be funded by the Capital Improvements Program (CIP). That fund comes from two sources; (1) water rates and (2) impact fees - the up-front money a builder has to pay for water and sewer service connections. Now, where exactly do you think that comes from? It comes from the public, genius. Raising rates and increasing impact fees results in addition expenditures from citizens that don't even have irrigation systems. Increasing the cost of the permit to cover plan reviews and inspections ONLY impacts those that wish to have the irrigation systems we BOTH believe to be wasteful. The fees are just enough to cover the cost of the program in our city. Any additional funds go into an account that funds conservation initiatives, like Texas Smartscape classes and Xeriscape programs.

You need to focus on educating yourself before you put your finger in our faces. We are trying to implement the state's mandated regulations in a way that impacts the fewest citizens and contractors, but still generates the desired results...conservation. THAT, Kiril, prevents us from tearing out half of our residents' lawn as well...nice recommendation.

h2ojoe
06-18-2008, 04:59 PM
But then, to the onlooker, the question then becomes "When did Texas cease to create incompetent regulations? Or have they ceased?"

I can't tell if you're trying to be funny or deep.

Our previous licensing program was created in 1992. The new regulations address obvious inadequacies and shortcomings of the old program.

You could always cease to look-on...just a thought.

Wet_Boots
06-18-2008, 05:17 PM
I can't tell if you're trying to be funny or deep.

Our previous licensing program was created in 1992. The new regulations address obvious inadequacies and shortcomings of the old program.

You could always cease to look-on...just a thought.From my viewpoint, it's 'funny', because a poorly enforced set of laws and regulations is a disservice to the public. And this is especially true when backflow protection requirements do not demand toxic-rated devices, which would have gone a great ways towards protecting the public water supply, even in the face of lackadaisical follow-up inspecting.

dlee1996
06-18-2008, 05:41 PM
From my viewpoint, it's 'funny', because a poorly enforced set of laws and regulations is a disservice to the public. And this is especially true when backflow protection requirements do not demand toxic-rated devices, which would have gone a great ways towards protecting the public water supply, even in the face of lackadaisical follow-up inspecting.

Toxic rated devices are required where there is a need.

Wet_Boots
06-18-2008, 05:48 PM
Toxic rated devices are required where there is a need.The need is on every single lawn sprinkler system, according to my experience, which is greater than yours, or apparently that of those who wrote the regulations you are championing.

dlee1996
06-18-2008, 05:51 PM
The need is on every single lawn sprinkler system, according to my experience, which is greater than yours, or apparently that of those who wrote the regulations you are championing.

I guess you got more smarts than all the guys in Austin. Man you should move down here instead of wasting your time in NYC.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Why will a double check not work for the average irrigation system?

AI Inc
06-18-2008, 05:54 PM
A dcva does not provide high hazard protection. All sprinkler systems are high hazard.

Wet_Boots
06-18-2008, 05:59 PM
The problem with trying to claim a lawn sprinkler system is not in need of toxic-rated backflow protection is akin to trying to determine which automobiles are not in need of emergency brakes.

txgrassguy
06-18-2008, 08:46 PM
A dcva does not provide high hazard protection. All sprinkler systems are high hazard.

Sir, just how do you figure this?
You know nothing about our operational environment other than what you read here.
My company services all manner of irrigation systems from flooded suction, captive tank to both vertical turbine and centrifugal pumps.
We work around septic fields, sewer systems, cess pools and other containment devices.
Multiple points of connection, cross connections, differing elevations, terrain types, soil/turf types and associated structural details all combine to determine hazard potential.
To state categorically that all irrigation systems are high hazard is disingenuous at best.

Wet_Boots
06-18-2008, 09:02 PM
Sir, just how do you figure this?
You know nothing about our operational environment other than what you read here.
My company services all manner of irrigation systems from flooded suction, captive tank to both vertical turbine and centrifugal pumps.
We work around septic fields, sewer systems, cess pools and other containment devices.
Multiple points of connection, cross connections, differing elevations, terrain types, soil/turf types and associated structural details all combine to determine hazard potential.
To state categorically that all irrigation systems are high hazard is disingenuous at best.In your words, you have mentioned one of the reasons to consider all lawn sprinkler systems as high-hazard, or toxic.

h2ojoe
06-18-2008, 09:04 PM
Sir, just how do you figure this?
You know nothing about our operational environment other than what you read here.
My company services all manner of irrigation systems from flooded suction, captive tank to both vertical turbine and centrifugal pumps.
We work around septic fields, sewer systems, cess pools and other containment devices.
Multiple points of connection, cross connections, differing elevations, terrain types, soil/turf types and associated structural details all combine to determine hazard potential.
To state categorically that all irrigation systems are high hazard is disingenuous at best.

Well said.

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-18-2008, 09:06 PM
In your words, you have mentioned one of the reasons to consider all lawn sprinkler systems as high-hazard, or toxic.

Like I've said before boots. A kazillion bad DCVAs in Dallas and can't recall a single huge story on toxic contamination. SPRINKLERS = LOW TOXIC

Wet_Boots
06-18-2008, 09:39 PM
Like I've said before boots. A kazillion bad DCVAs in Dallas and can't recall a single huge story on toxic contamination. SPRINKLERS = LOW TOXICNot true. I don't expect everyone to have my repair experience, especially if one isn't in poly country, but once you see what can occur out there in the field, with one's own eyes, the answer to the question "what could happen here?" is definitely NOT "non-toxic" and NOT "low-hazard"

You figure there's a reason that regional plumbing codes classify lawn sprinkler systems as high-hazard?

I'll ask the Texans again - which automobiles don't need emergency brakes?

jimmyburg
06-18-2008, 09:48 PM
In your words, you have mentioned one of the reasons to consider all lawn sprinkler systems as high-hazard, or toxic.


I do consider all irrigation systems high hazard even if the state dose not consider it. i have been in backflow longer than irrigation and i have seen alot of WTF

jimmyburg
06-18-2008, 09:49 PM
Not true. I don't expect everyone to have my repair experience, especially if one isn't in poly country, but once you see what can occur out there in the field, with one's own eyes, the answer to the question "what could happen here?" is definitely NOT "non-toxic" and NOT "low-hazard"

You figure there's a reason that regional plumbing codes classify lawn sprinkler systems as high-hazard?

I'll ask the Texans again - which automobiles don't need emergency brakes?

i prefer the flinstones car

Kiril
06-19-2008, 01:04 AM
Now you argue in favor of a program that would all but eliminate irrigation in our state as we know it?

Exactly. What is more important, enough potable water supplies to sustain the population of your state or residential/commercial irrigation? The sooner you can answer that question, the sooner your state will pull their collective heads out of their **** and start working towards a real solution.

As for the rest of it, just seems like your talking in circles. You state we MUST conserve water, yet your not willing to take the necessary steps to do just that. Instead it looks like you realize there IS a problem, but make excuses why you can't do what is needed.

However, you still see the potential to generate more income and more bureaucratic overhead (eg. public burden) for the city, and choose to ignore the bigger issue until such a time comes when you actually do run out of potable water.

What will happen then? All this money and time you spent putting regulations and enforcement in place will be pretty much worthless because the majority of people will not be installing irrigation systems.

Oh and FYI, not all of CA is water starved.

Kiril
06-19-2008, 01:07 AM
Like I've said before boots. A kazillion bad DCVAs in Dallas and can't recall a single huge story on toxic contamination.

All it takes is one.

AI Inc
06-19-2008, 06:54 AM
Sir, just how do you figure this?
You know nothing about our operational environment other than what you read here.
My company services all manner of irrigation systems from flooded suction, captive tank to both vertical turbine and centrifugal pumps.
We work around septic fields, sewer systems, cess pools and other containment devices.
Multiple points of connection, cross connections, differing elevations, terrain types, soil/turf types and associated structural details all combine to determine hazard potential.
To state categorically that all irrigation systems are high hazard is disingenuous at best.

The theory is that if a rock was to get stuck in each check valve( yes I know , almost impossible , but I dont write the laws) that it would render the DCVA useless.

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-19-2008, 08:17 AM
All it takes is one.

We could also have a poisonous gas released in the atmosphere as well. I'm more worried about what I breathe on a daily basis than back siphoning from an irrigation system. Even when the city has a mainline break they flush the lines and warn everybody. let's say a kid pees on a sprinkler head. That water has to get pass the valve, through the DCVA into the city water line and then gets so thinned out that it is barely traceable. Still think irrigation low toxic. Put an injector on it that is a different story.

txgrassguy
06-19-2008, 08:25 AM
Not true. I don't expect everyone to have my repair experience, especially if one isn't in poly country, but once you see what can occur out there in the field, with one's own eyes, the answer to the question "what could happen here?" is definitely NOT "non-toxic" and NOT "low-hazard"

You figure there's a reason that regional plumbing codes classify lawn sprinkler systems as high-hazard?

I'll ask the Texans again - which automobiles don't need emergency brakes?

I don't have your repair experience with poly, just like you don't know squat about my operational environment.
Regional plumbing codes in my area, I know because I keep current on them, defines the degree of hazard based upon water source type and manner of waste management on the property.
So Boots, how do you rate the hazard of this system consisting of?:
pumping water from a sixty five mile long lake, lift is over 200' from pump to residential turf site, home is connected to a sewer system and the line feeding the sewer system isn't even near the lake supply line or yard.

The point of my question is to illustrate the danger(s) of global statements - and the moment you attempt to qualify your answer you have proven my point. You are being disingenuous.

And in Texas, we don't need emergency brakes because we have frame mounted brush guards.

Wet_Boots
06-19-2008, 11:05 AM
I don't have your repair experience with poly, just like you don't know squat about my operational environment.Sorry, son, but that dog won't hunt. What I've seen, could be seen anywhere there is human habitation. When I personally observe what is a part of one of the recorded "backflow events" I do not pretend it never happened. Toxic-rated backflow preventers make it a non-issue.So Boots, how do you rate the hazard of this system consisting of?:
pumping water from a sixty five mile long lake, lift is over 200' from pump to residential turf site, home is connected to a sewer system and the line feeding the sewer system isn't even near the lake supply line or yard.Call it high hazard, if the lake is a source of potable water. (although one could look at defining the surface water as toxic, which would make a lawn sprinkler system merely more of the same) Employ the stricter definitions, and you work without risk to your customers' health, and without risk to your own personal fortunes, yours, and that of your family that depends on your income.The point of my question is to illustrate the danger(s) of global statements - and the moment you attempt to qualify your answer you have proven my point. You are being disingenuous.

And in Texas, we don't need emergency brakes because we have frame mounted brush guards.You illustrate only the stubbornness I might have exhibited when the requirement for toxic-rated backflow came into being, and made all existing DCVA installations non-compliant. I got over it. You might get over it. Or not.

dlee1996
06-19-2008, 11:27 AM
Call it high hazard, if the lake is a source of potable water.

Lake water is not potable water until it is treated and disinfected.:hammerhead:

Wet_Boots
06-19-2008, 11:34 AM
Lake water is not potable water until it is treated and disinfected.:hammerhead:But if certain substances backflow into said lake, the treating might become far more difficult. Most of the surface water I see is closer to icky than yummy, so I don't flinch at systems pumping pond water that have nothing more than a foot valve.

As far as regional lawn sprinkler plumbing codes are concerned, the surface water question isn't germane, because the codes are part of the building codes, and your pond-water sprinkler system isn't a part of any structure, so you can get a free ride on that one.

Bruiser
06-19-2008, 11:37 AM
But if certain substances backflow into said lake, the treating might become far more difficult. Most of the surface water I see is closer to icky than yummy, so I don't flinch at systems pumping pond water that have nothing more than a foot valve.


Parts Per Billion

h2ojoe
06-19-2008, 11:49 AM
Exactly. What is more important, enough potable water supplies to sustain the population of your state or residential/commercial irrigation? The sooner you can answer that question, the sooner your state will pull their collective heads out of their @sses and start working towards a real solution.
Is there a reason that you feel as if you should include insults in every response?
As for the rest of it, just seems like your talking in circles. You state we MUST conserve water, yet your not willing to take the necessary steps to do just that. Instead it looks like you realize there IS a problem, but make excuses why you can't do what is needed.
I'm talking in circles? You complain about regulation and then complain about the lack of it. That's a full-circle argument my friend. And what excuses have we made? We're trying to head a problem off at the pass.
However, you still see the potential to generate more income and more bureaucratic overhead (eg. public burden) for the city, and choose to ignore the bigger issue until such a time comes when you actually do run out of potable water.
Did you even read the post you responded to? Please stop responding to my posts if you're simply going to ignore its content and make false accusations. Very childish.
What will happen then? All this money and time you spent putting regulations and enforcement in place will be pretty much worthless because the majority of people will not be installing irrigation systems.
There is the circle again...you claim that we aren't addressing the real problem because we are not eliminating irrigation systems and then you say that what we are doing will be worthless because the majority of people will not be installing systems. Proof read your responses before you post them, Kiril. Save us both the time.
Oh and FYI, not all of CA is water starved.
What? You oppose blanket statements? That's the pot calling the kettle black.

That is all!

dlee1996
06-19-2008, 12:24 PM
But if certain substances backflow into said lake, the treating might become far more difficult.

Have you ever treated water? How will it make the treatment process more difficult? I can assure you the runoff from farmers is far worse than what you could have from a lawn irrigation system.

Wet_Boots
06-19-2008, 12:33 PM
Have you ever treated water? How will it make the treatment process more difficult? I can assure you the runoff from farmers is far worse than what you could have from a lawn irrigation system.If you have cubic miles of water, that will be different than a pond of some cubic yards of water. But, for a discussion of building code requirements for lawn sprinkler systems, surface water is not relevant, unless there exists a cross-connection between city water and surface water.

h2ojoe
06-19-2008, 01:02 PM
If you have cubic miles of water, that will be different than a pond of some cubic yards of water. But, for a discussion of building code requirements for lawn sprinkler systems, surface water is not relevant, unless there exists a cross-connection between city water and surface water.

30 TAC 344.51b
Connection of more than one water source to an irrigation system presents the potential for contamination of the potable water supply if backflow occurs. Therefore, connection of any additional water source to an irrigation system that is connected to the potable water supply can only be done if the irrigation system is connected to the potable water supply through a reduced-pressure principle backflow prevention assembly or an air gap.

I think the intent of the rule is clear, any system that uses a pond (or ANYTHING else for that matter) is to be considered hazardous if it also has a connection to the potable water supply.

Additionally, while the state regs don't prevent the use of DCVAs, they do say that they are to be used only in situations where there are no conditions that present a health hazard (344.50d). The rule also leaves the "health hazard" determination up to the "local regulatory authority".

At the moment, we have not yet adopted, by ordinance, the 2006 IPC. In that code book, DCVAs are not mentioned as an approved backflow device for irrigation systems. Our Water Resources Council Subcommittee submitted comments to the TCEQ (regulatory body), requesting that DVCAs be removed from the list of approved devices. The decision was made at the state level to allow them in the situations I listed above. In my opinion, the state refused to remove them AND put the liability on the local municipalities instead. I am almost certain that the Texas Municipal League is drafting a model ordinance that no longer allows them to be used. Cities will still have to pass/adopt ordinances that do the same though. We will certainly be one of those cities.

I don't know who's argument that supports...but that is how it is written in the regs.

Wet_Boots
06-19-2008, 01:20 PM
The regional plumbing codes seem to work on the basis of considering the entire outdoors as toxic, and not to be permitted access into the indoor water supplies (and, perhaps, by extension, into any potable water that feeds those supplies) - shades of grey are not in the backflow picture they deal with.

h2ojoe
06-19-2008, 01:25 PM
The regional plumbing codes seem to work on the basis of considering the entire outdoors as toxic, and not to be permitted access into the indoor water supplies (and, perhaps, by extension, into any potable water that feeds those supplies) - shades of grey are not in the backflow picture they deal with.

I can't believe I am going to say this, but (swallow hard)...I agree with you. There I said it.

jimmyburg
06-19-2008, 07:18 PM
30 TAC 344.51b
Connection of more than one water source to an irrigation system presents the potential for contamination of the potable water supply if backflow occurs. Therefore, connection of any additional water source to an irrigation system that is connected to the potable water supply can only be done if the irrigation system is connected to the potable water supply through a reduced-pressure principle backflow prevention assembly or an air gap.

I think the intent of the rule is clear, any system that uses a pond (or ANYTHING else for that matter) is to be considered hazardous if it also has a connection to the potable water supply.

Additionally, while the state regs don't prevent the use of DCVAs, they do say that they are to be used only in situations where there are no conditions that present a health hazard (344.50d). The rule also leaves the "health hazard" determination up to the "local regulatory authority".

At the moment, we have not yet adopted, by ordinance, the 2006 IPC. In that code book, DCVAs are not mentioned as an approved backflow device for irrigation systems. Our Water Resources Council Subcommittee submitted comments to the TCEQ (regulatory body), requesting that DVCAs be removed from the list of approved devices. The decision was made at the state level to allow them in the situations I listed above. In my opinion, the state refused to remove them AND put the liability on the local municipalities instead. I am almost certain that the Texas Municipal League is drafting a model ordinance that no longer allows them to be used. Cities will still have to pass/adopt ordinances that do the same though. We will certainly be one of those cities.

I don't know who's argument that supports...but that is how it is written in the regs.

are you refering to the COG meeting in Arlington? i think i might have meet you there a few months back.

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-19-2008, 11:11 PM
The regional plumbing codes seem to work on the basis of considering the entire outdoors as toxic, and not to be permitted access into the indoor water supplies (and, perhaps, by extension, into any potable water that feeds those supplies) - shades of grey are not in the backflow picture they deal with.

Boots when do you go make money?

h2ojoe
06-20-2008, 01:17 AM
are you refering to the COG meeting in Arlington? i think i might have meet you there a few months back.

The Water Resources Council is at the COG. And we have held classes in Arlington. In fact, we had a meeting in Arlington on Monday to go over possible additions to the model ordinance.

How do I PM you on this site?

Kiril
06-20-2008, 01:45 AM
That is all!

Come back and read my posts when your state runs out of potable water.

dlee1996
06-20-2008, 09:15 AM
Come back and read my posts when your state runs out of potable water.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Kiril
06-20-2008, 09:41 AM
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

http://www.naturalnews.com/z022915.html

Still want to laugh?

h2ojoe
06-20-2008, 10:50 AM
The sooner you can answer that question, the sooner your state will pull their collective heads out of their @sses and start working towards a real solution.

As for the rest of it, just seems like your talking in circles.

Oh and FYI, CA is not water starved.

Classic Kiril! Let's talk about circles, Kiril.

This is your post (above). Then, you post a link to a news story in which California's (where you are from) water is described as threatened. See for yourself:
Rising temperatures due to global warming have increased evaporation rates across the country and reduced the availability of important water sources. One of these is the Sierra Nevada snowpack, which supplies a significant portion of California's water.

Then you post another failed attempt at a one-liner - "come back and read my posts when your state runs out of water"
For what, comic relief?

And you're whining about our regulations? What is the point of criticizing others when you so clearly have no idea what you're saying?:nono:

Kiril
06-20-2008, 11:23 AM
And you're whining about our regulations?

Show me where and which ones specifically I whined about.

BTW Joe, the title of the article is Thirty-Six U.S. States to Face Water Shortages in the Next Five Years

Why is it joe, you take every dissenting statement from anyone on this forum as a personal attack on you?

FYI, I applaud your efforts to conserve water through more efficient irrigation, however short of requiring smart controllers and 80% or better DU on original designs, I feel your efforts will largely fail because there is just no way you can reasonably enforce water usage past the installation stage. Perhaps you can require a separate meter for irrigation, or perform monthly audits on every single irrigated property in TX to monitor the publics landscape water usage. Maybe this is the next solution you will come up with?

Common sense says if your landscapes require little or no supplemental water to maintain, then you will maximize your water conservation and minimize public burden.

I ask you, how much will is cost the taxpayers and state to require a regionally appropriate, water efficient landscapes on all new construction and major renovations?

DanaMac
06-20-2008, 11:28 AM
Ding! Ding! Ding! Both of you to your corners....

Go to work and make some money :)

jimmyburg
06-20-2008, 03:00 PM
The Water Resources Council is at the COG. And we have held classes in Arlington. In fact, we had a meeting in Arlington on Monday to go over possible additions to the model ordinance.

How do I PM you on this site?

click on my name and it will ask to send a private message.
i clicked on yours but you didnt add a email address

h2ojoe
06-20-2008, 03:40 PM
Why is it joe, you take every dissenting statement from anyone on this forum as a personal attack on you?
Look at the rest of your post (this one). "your efforts will largely fail", "pull your heads out of your collective ***** (in another post)", "wasting taxpayer money", "burden the public", "city inspectors are a joke".
All of those comments are yours, Kiril. So, I'm going to fail, I've got my head up my ***, I'm wasting taxpayer money, I'm a burden, and (to top it all off) I'm a joke? So, why might I think that is a personal attack on me...any ideas? When you use a quote from me as the crux of your argument, I respond in order to defend my opinion (and myself unfortunately). If you don't want anyone to defend their stance...don't post messages. This isn't rocket science. Do the comments you post come close to constructive criticism? Read the ones above and judge for yourself. I think my opinion is clear on the matter.

FYI, I applaud your efforts to conserve water through more efficient irrigation, however short of requiring smart controllers and 80% or better DU on original designs, I feel your efforts will largely fail because there is just no way you can reasonably enforce water usage past the installation stage.
And your many years of code enforcement tells you this?


Perhaps you can require a separate meter for irrigation, or perform monthly audits on every single irrigated property in TX to monitor the publics landscape water usage. Maybe this is the next solution you will come up with?
Here we go with the sarcasm again. Way to prove your point by keeping it positive, Kiril."

Common sense says if your landscapes require little or no supplemental water to maintain, then you will maximize your water conservation and minimize public burden.
There's the public burden stuff again.

I ask you, how much will is cost the taxpayers and state to require a regionally appropriate, water efficient landscapes on all new construction and major renovations?
If you want an accurate estimate I'll have to get back to you.

That is all.

WalkGood
06-20-2008, 06:12 PM
So this Department of Water Resources representative stops at a Texas ranch and talks with an old rancher. He tells the rancher, "I need to inspect your ranch for your water allocation".

The old rancher says, "Okay, but don't go in that field over there".

The Water representative says, "Mister, I have the authority of the Government with me. See this card? This card means I am allowed to go WHEREVER I WISH on any agricultural land. No questions asked or answered.

Have I made myself clear? Do you understand"?

The old rancher nods politely and goes about his chores.

Later, the old rancher hears loud screams and spies the Water Rep running for his life and close behind is the rancher's bull. The bull is gaining with every step.

The Rep is clearly terrified, so the old rancher immediately throws down his tools, runs to the fence and yells at the top of his lungs.....

"Your card! Show him your card"!


:rolleyes:

Waterit
06-20-2008, 06:21 PM
"Your card! Show him your card"!:rolleyes:

Man, you are priceless!:laugh::laugh:

Comedy's loss is irrigation's gain!:clapping::clapping:

WalkGood
06-20-2008, 06:53 PM
I'll be here all season.... tip your waiters.

h2ojoe
06-20-2008, 06:54 PM
So this Department of Water Resources representative stops at a Texas ranch and talks with an old rancher. He tells the rancher, "I need to inspect your ranch for your water allocation".

The old rancher says, "Okay, but don't go in that field over there".

The Water representative says, "Mister, I have the authority of the Government with me. See this card? This card means I am allowed to go WHEREVER I WISH on any agricultural land. No questions asked or answered.

Have I made myself clear? Do you understand"?

The old rancher nods politely and goes about his chores.

Later, the old rancher hears loud screams and spies the Water Rep running for his life and close behind is the rancher's bull. The bull is gaining with every step.

The Rep is clearly terrified, so the old rancher immediately throws down his tools, runs to the fence and yells at the top of his lungs.....

"Your card! Show him your card"!


:rolleyes:

Who told you?

Kiril
06-21-2008, 02:30 AM
While your putting those numbers together Joe, how about digging up some numbers on the amount irrigated turf acres for Texas. Then we can play the numbers game to see how much water my suggestion will save compared to yours.

Furthermore I am still waiting on answers to my questions.

1) How do you enforce water efficient irrigation scheduling and usage post installation?

2) Why are you not requiring regionally appropriate landscapes (eg. little or no supplemental water) on all new and major renovation construction?

Once again, I ask you why is your state (and every state) not taking the necessary steps to create long term solutions to dwindling potable water supplies?

dlee1996
12-04-2008, 06:59 PM
So are you guys ready for the new rules.:):):)

Bruiser
12-04-2008, 07:51 PM
I am, ready to do design work.

EagleLandscape
12-04-2008, 08:40 PM
We just do repair. only put in a handful of systems a year, and my designer has been designing with "their new code" method for 30 yrs.
no changes for us.

dlee1996
12-04-2008, 09:26 PM
Making designs may be a business on its own.:D

Kiril
12-04-2008, 11:09 PM
We just do repair. only put in a handful of systems a year, and my designer has been designing with "their new code" method for 30 yrs.
no changes for us.

Your dad has to retire sometime. :laugh:

EagleLandscape
12-04-2008, 11:35 PM
Your dad has to retire sometime. :laugh:

I don't think its anytime soon. Things have slowed down with the way economy/new commercial construction is.

If he is good at one thing, it's irrigation design. That's for sure. I'm lucking to learn from him for design, and super lucky to learn from Peter (FIMCO) on modifying existing systems, and really tweaking existing systems.

If you all havent tapped into Peter's retrofit, repair mind, I'll be the first to say he knows a ton, and is always willing to teach an eager ear.

too bad he's touring around the country now...:(

Kiril
12-04-2008, 11:47 PM
If you all havent tapped into Peter's retrofit, repair mind, I'll be the first to say he knows a ton, and is always willing to teach an eager ear.

Yes, we think alike. He can probably turn a bee into a butterfly, I would probably end up with a moth.

Mike Leary
12-05-2008, 11:49 AM
too bad he's touring around the country now...:(

I could not have lasted so long without a break from time to time; most of us tend to live the biz. :wall

DanaMac
12-05-2008, 12:16 PM
I could not have lasted so long without a break from time to time; most of us tend to live the biz. :wall

No way I would last a regular job. I take too many vacations. Long weekends, extended trips, 4 month winter vaca. Nope. Wouldn't make it in the "real" world.

Kiril
12-05-2008, 12:25 PM
No way I would last a regular job. I take too many vacations. Long weekends, extended trips, 4 month winter vaca. Nope. Wouldn't make it in the "real" world.

I'll say it before Mike does ..... PIKER :laugh:

Mike Leary
12-05-2008, 12:30 PM
Good for you, Dana; I had to keep a trained crew going through the winter. Piker.

DanaMac
12-05-2008, 12:32 PM
I'll say it before Mike does ..... PIKER :laugh:

And if PIKER means FUN-HAVER, then yes I'm a PIKER :)

FIMCO-MEISTER
12-05-2008, 01:13 PM
I could not have lasted so long without a break from time to time; most of us tend to live the biz. :wall

I don't know how you avoid it if you want to be really good at it. Once I internalized a SENSE OF URGENCY my irrigation business became my whole focus. I hated vacations and anything that took me away. Thanksgiving, Christmas, bad weather, wife, ex-wife, girlfriend, you get the picture. Not sure how I raised the daughter I did as a full time single parent. Of course I sent her to summer camp for the whole summer. Now I've gone to the other extreme. Some people don't have happy mediums about anything and I put myself in that category.

Mike Leary
12-05-2008, 01:25 PM
Some people don't have happy mediums about anything and I put myself in that category.

Ditto, but the seven day weeks paid off: I wanted something recession-proof; a client base for times when we had no new construction. It took years, and more than a few brain cells. However, it made the business work and made it very saleable. :clapping:

DanaMac
12-05-2008, 04:53 PM
Don't get me wrong, when there is work to be done, I work my ass off. I stress out like crazy. And when there is time to play, I play. Having no kids and none expected also makes it easier. I work 6 and 7 days a week in the field when necessary.

Mike Leary
12-05-2008, 05:16 PM
I work 6 and 7 days a week in the field when necessary.

Stay out of the field if you want to make money. Know what I mean?

bicmudpuppy
12-06-2008, 01:32 AM
There will be a focus on scheduling. But a crappy system can waste a ton of water. We had one the guy had 12s on the side of the house. Which is about 4-5' between the house and the fence. You saying that is not a waste of water? The main goal is to use some sense and to help conserve water. The metroplex waste alot of water on irrigation.

I haven't read all the crap here yet, but YES 12 sprays might be the RIGHT answer. 5' nozzles in a double row means 25'x5' gets watered, and the design is sound. Typical inspector, count what you can see with zero knowledge of what your looking at. I had an inspector in Flower Mound attempt to FAIL a DC because I rotated the 805Y 90 degrees so the test ports faced up to facilitate testing. It didn't look like the picture in his book, so he flagged the install. Box was bedded in pea gravel (in excess of the required 6") etc., but because I turned the test ports upright to make it easier on my BF testor (I got a price break from him when I made it easier like this), I had to take pictures and find a code enforcement officer who had some clue to plumbing to get the installation approved. I seemed to draw the same jerk for every Flower Mound job after that, and he went out of his way to keep dropping red tags for me. I had to make it personal, and he did have to seek new employment eventually, but............

bicmudpuppy
12-06-2008, 01:57 AM
So are illegal immigrants. Shouldn't we have more folks trying to catch and send them back, rather than playing sprinkler cops?

OMG, Dana, your not one of THOSE? We CAN'T fix it, because the government can't afford to fix it. The media feeds us all that crap about the welfare costs and medical costs and education costs of illegals, but DO THE MATH........there are how MANY estimated illegals working in this country? And the majority file W-4's at Single-1.........That means about 25% taken out for deductions to the government. 25% of minimum wage times 2000hr/year is how many billions of dollars??? And all that money goes poof and the government never mentions.

bicmudpuppy
12-06-2008, 02:07 AM
Sir, just how do you figure this?
...........................To state categorically that all irrigation systems are high hazard is disingenuous at best.

I LIKE DCVA's, I think if they are required to be re-built on an approved schedule AND tested annually, the cost burden to the consumer should be allowed, BUT rebuilding isn't required. Testors hang paper instead of making the customer pony up for the proper repair (I've seen KS testors turn in tests w/o even owning testing equipment). If you want to drink from a non-potable source on a regular basis, then irrigation systems are not high hazard. ANYONE who has cut a mainline should be able to attest to the fact that the bacteria grows even in the pressure part of the system. That bacillus is TOXIC. Deadly? maybe, maybe not. Very harmful and potentially deadly to the small child that gets a shot of it in his drink of water? Worth protecting against. I do not believe you will ever back flow chemicals from a lawn application into the municipal water, but you will back flow harmful bacteria, bacteria that must then stay in the system for 24+ hours to be killed by the recommended chlorine content that is supposed to be there.

bicmudpuppy
12-06-2008, 02:09 AM
Like I've said before boots. A kazillion bad DCVAs in Dallas and can't recall a single huge story on toxic contamination. SPRINKLERS = LOW TOXIC

Read a little more Peter. Just because they can't PROVE where it came from does NOT meant it didn't come from the water. I've seen projections that suggest that over half of the "flu" cases in this country are from bad water, and not really the flu.

bicmudpuppy
12-06-2008, 02:15 AM
I
So Boots, how do you rate the hazard of this system consisting of?:
pumping water from a sixty five mile long lake, lift is over 200' from pump to residential turf site, home is connected to a sewer system and the line feeding the sewer system isn't even near the lake supply line or yard.

The point of my question is to illustrate the danger(s) of global statements - and the moment you attempt to qualify your answer you have proven my point. You are being disingenuous.

And in Texas, we don't need emergency brakes because we have frame mounted brush guards.

The answer is that your paramaters do not matter. The BF device is for a POC from municipal water. A DCVA is fine to protect UNTREATED water from backflowing back into UNTREATED water. A lawn sprinkler system breeds bacillus because it doesn't move enough water on a continual basis to keep the appropriate level of chlorine to make the water in those lines potable. Backflow happens, thus the potential to backflow NON-potable water makes the hazard HIGH.

AI Inc
12-06-2008, 06:54 AM
I haven't read all the crap here yet, but YES 12 sprays might be the RIGHT answer. 5' nozzles in a double row means 25'x5' gets watered, and the design is sound. Typical inspector, count what you can see with zero knowledge of what your looking at. I had an inspector in Flower Mound attempt to FAIL a DC because I rotated the 805Y 90 degrees so the test ports faced up to facilitate testing. It didn't look like the picture in his book, so he flagged the install. Box was bedded in pea gravel (in excess of the required 6") etc., but because I turned the test ports upright to make it easier on my BF testor (I got a price break from him when I made it easier like this), I had to take pictures and find a code enforcement officer who had some clue to plumbing to get the installation approved. I seemed to draw the same jerk for every Flower Mound job after that, and he went out of his way to keep dropping red tags for me. I had to make it personal, and he did have to seek new employment eventually, but............

Thats the biggest problem with testing. I had a system fail inspection because the RPZ was not a ft above the highest head.
Then it was , drive to the water dept and explain backflow and protection to the people doing the testing.

DanaMac
12-06-2008, 10:24 AM
OMG, Dana, your not one of THOSE? We CAN'T fix it, because the government can't afford to fix it. The media feeds us all that crap about the welfare costs and medical costs and education costs of illegals, but DO THE MATH........there are how MANY estimated illegals working in this country? And the majority file W-4's at Single-1.........That means about 25% taken out for deductions to the government. 25% of minimum wage times 2000hr/year is how many billions of dollars??? And all that money goes poof and the government never mentions.

You think it's right that we have millions jobless over the last few months but it's ok to for some companies to hire illegals with illegal documents to work for less than standard wages? My property taxes apy for their kids to go to school. They don't tend to buy property or homes. They send most their money back home, which means lost sales tax revenue.

I don't want to get into a big b!tch fest about it. I was merely stating that there are better things I think our gov't can police than the workings of a sprinkler system.

Waterit
12-06-2008, 10:25 AM
I don't want to get into a big b!tch fest about it. I was merely stating that there are better things I think our gov't can police than the workings of a sprinkler system.

There it is.

wab1234
12-06-2008, 11:22 AM
There is no way half file single 1. Would you file single 1 or married 4 for no other reason then to pay more. Its not the employer right to decide what someone wants to file all single 1 is a loan to the government until April 15 with no interest.

DanaMac
12-06-2008, 11:25 AM
There is no way half file single 1. Would you file single 1 or married 4 for no other reason then to pay more. Its not the employer right to decide what someone wants to file all single 1 is a loan to the government until April 15 with no interest.

Yes. Many actually file more than "1". and either way they get a lot of it back on their return.

Good point wab.

WalkGood
12-06-2008, 12:26 PM
DO THE MATH........there are how MANY estimated illegals working in this country? And the majority file W-4's at Single-1.........That means about 25% taken out for deductions to the government. 25% of minimum wage times 2000hr/year is how many billions of dollars??? And all that money goes poof and the government never mentions.


Majority of ILLEGALS are filling taxes? I do not think it is the majority, at least not from what I "hear". Off-the-books cash payments do not file taxes.

Also, stories go.... that even when presenting "papers" for hiring on the books, many file W-4 with 5 dependants. Practically zero withholdings from paycheck, and never filing taxes. There is one guy named "Juan Lopez" who worked 7 full time jobs (concurrently) and never files taxes! (READ: papers for Juan Lopez are presented by 7 different people at 7 different jobs).

Another scenario is, they get half pay as cash other half as paycheck. And again, either zero or very close to zero as withholdings.

As far as percentages of withholdings..... at minumum wage there is not 25% withholdings. $8 an hour for 40 hours is $320 a week..... single-one FED withholding is $24. Only 7.5% by my doing the math. http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p15.pdf Soc Sec witholding will not bring it up to 25%.


That all being said, yes....... there would be SOME tax money in play if all illegals are sent back across the borders.

A bigger issue is, if all illegals are booted out.... who will take the ditch-digging jobs?