PDA

View Full Version : Cummins enters the turf industry; eXmark first to sign on!


tb8100
06-14-2008, 04:48 PM
very limited details right now. eXmark is completely redesigning the Lazers and is also revising their engine lineup, one of which is a 38hp Cummins A series diesel. It's the only diesel on the market to my knowledge that is a VERTICAL SHAFT.

Also heard they're going to a hydro drive like JD with a unitized twin piston pump. Under-seat fuel tank like Scag. These are supposed to be the next big thing to hit the zero turn market. Is eXmark trying to differentiate from Toro...?

ProStreetCamaro
06-14-2008, 04:58 PM
very limited details right now. eXmark is completely redesigning the Lazers and is also revising their engine lineup, one of which is a 38hp Cummins A series diesel. It's the only diesel on the market to my knowledge that is a VERTICAL SHAFT.

Also heard they're going to a hydro drive like JD with a unitized twin piston pump. Under-seat fuel tank like Scag. These are supposed to be the next big thing to hit the zero turn market. Is eXmark trying to differentiate from Toro...?



Sounds good and we all know Cummins is one of the best diesel manufacturers on the market today. Its time for exmark to make some changes IMO mainly get rid of the triton deck.


What I want to know is why has somebody not come out with even smaller diesels for smaller machines? A 25hp diesel on a 60" would be more then enough power. Diesels make torque and if a 25hp gas engine can power a 60" deck just fine then surely a 25hp diesel wouldnt even break a sweat and it would sip fuel to boot.


WHY oh WHY are we getting close to 40hp on mowers????????????????? Its not needed!

Albemarle Lawn
06-14-2008, 05:00 PM
Was used in the Everide diesel Hornet, only like 18 HP though.

A vertical would be nice if its not too loud or shaky, probably only a 2-cylinder, hard to get the shake out.

I wanted an Exmark Lazer XS but the change of direction of power via twisted belt from Horizontal motor was a deal killer.

Albemarle Lawn
06-14-2008, 05:03 PM
Good power except tall grass uphill, motor lays down badly, too high an RPM motor, something like 3800 RPM operating speed.

tb8100
06-14-2008, 05:12 PM
Sounds good and we all know Cummins is one of the best diesel manufacturers on the market today. Its time for exmark to make some changes IMO mainly get rid of the triton deck.


What I want to know is why has somebody not come out with even smaller diesels for smaller machines? A 25hp diesel on a 60" would be more then enough power. Diesels make torque and if a 25hp gas engine can power a 60" deck just fine then surely a 25hp diesel wouldnt even break a sweat and it would sip fuel to boot.


WHY oh WHY are we getting close to 40hp on mowers????????????????? Its not needed!

The Triton is going away. The Ultracut is coming back with the quad-bearing Triton spindles. Exmark may bring the Triton back when the dust settles and people forget about the bad experiences folks had with the first gen models. Deere should do the same with the 800 series.

ProStreetCamaro
06-14-2008, 05:18 PM
The Triton is going away. The Ultracut is coming back with the quad-bearing Triton spindles. Exmark may bring the Triton back when the dust settles and people forget about the bad experiences folks had with the first gen models. Deere should do the same with the 800 series.



Sounds like exmark is going in the right direction. The ultracut is a great deck thats for sure. Its to bad deere messed up with the 800 series mowers. The 700 series was great from what i hear. I have never owned one but the 7 iron decks have proven themselfs over the last couple years. Im sure deere will get squared away and the bugs worked out but that doesnt help the people that bought them only to find out they had problems.

tb8100
06-14-2008, 05:21 PM
with machines going faster and faster, manufacturers need to step up power to keep up. Also, decks are getting deeper and deeper.

tallimeca
06-14-2008, 06:57 PM
Also heard they're going to a hydro drive like JD with a unitized twin piston pump. Under-seat fuel tank like Scag. These are supposed to be the next big thing to hit the zero turn market. Is eXmark trying to differentiate from Toro...?

Try to differentiate from Toro? So Toro can go steal their new design next and market under their name...hahahaha. It's like Toro is the pimp and Exmark is the one doing all the work.

I have seen alot of info on the new Z's. They are supposed have the ZT transmissions with the pump and motor built into the same unit. No more hoses.

freshprince94
06-14-2008, 06:59 PM
Where is all this info coming from?

tb8100
06-14-2008, 07:01 PM
Sounds like exmark is going in the right direction. The ultracut is a great deck thats for sure. Its to bad deere messed up with the 800 series mowers. The 700 series was great from what i hear. I have never owned one but the 7 iron decks have proven themselfs over the last couple years. Im sure deere will get squared away and the bugs worked out but that doesnt help the people that bought them only to find out they had problems.

oh, Deere will get straightened out. They'll eventually take over the mower market like Stihl has taken over the handheld market. Both Stihl and Deere rn their dealers and whip them into shape. They load dealers way up with inventory, but they do a great job of helping dealers storefront and market the products. Alot of companies give dealers products and let them do their own thing, often times meaning poor product stocking and displaying. You hear people on here complain about Gravely and other dealers. Some companies are intent on increasing their dealer network without much by way of standards on them.

tb8100
06-14-2008, 07:03 PM
Where is all this info coming from?

exmark dealers and reps. :weightlifter:

tb8100
06-14-2008, 07:12 PM
Try to differentiate from Toro? So Toro can go steal their new design next and market under their name...hahahaha. It's like Toro is the pimp and Exmark is the one doing all the work.

I have seen alot of info on the new Z's. They are supposed have the ZT transmissions with the pump and motor built into the same unit. No more hoses.

Zt transmissions? Like a larger version of the ZT2800? Something with a 12cc or 16cc pump built in? I thought it was more of a JD style drive system, but you're a dealer, I'm not (yet).

I agree, toro is dumb for stealing designs, but they're selling alot as a result. Smart from a business standpoint.

LawnScapers of Dayton
06-14-2008, 09:28 PM
Try to differentiate from Toro? So Toro can go steal their new design next and market under their name...hahahaha. It's like Toro is the pimp and Exmark is the one doing all the work.

I have seen alot of info on the new Z's. They are supposed have the ZT transmissions with the pump and motor built into the same unit. No more hoses.

not really stealing since Toro owns Exmark..........

tb8100
06-14-2008, 09:33 PM
not really stealing since Toro owns Exmark..........

yes stealing. Exmark has their own engineers and Toro is too lazy to do the footwork and create their own stuff so they let eXmark create the innovations and they steal them.

TLS
06-14-2008, 10:09 PM
This is interesting info.

Prostreetcamaro....to go fast, you need power. (of all people, you should know this!) 25hp (gas or diesel) won't cut it on a high performance ZTR of today. The big pumps, and big suction decks all take power.

timber132007
06-14-2008, 11:02 PM
tb8100, Would you happen to know what model year they will be coming out? I can't wait to see a mower with a Cummins diesel.

XterraJohn
06-14-2008, 11:27 PM
yes stealing. Exmark has their own engineers and Toro is too lazy to do the footwork and create their own stuff so they let eXmark create the innovations and they steal them.

I think the point he was trying to make was that since Toro is paying the bills, it's actually like Toro is purchasing the designs, instead of stealing them.

meets1
06-14-2008, 11:49 PM
toro to exmark is like comparing the GMC to Chevy. About the same, but yet different.

Alittle of subject but my kubota/bobcat dealer is now a hustler dealer. I finally said I would demo. He is the super Z. 25kawa engine, 60 inch deck, rear discharge. The rear was fine and I liked the fact that grass isn't blowing over you as you mow but I bag alot so that is out. Speed - the mower is fast. The cut is not good at 15mph but still.

nosparkplugs
06-15-2008, 12:22 AM
The Cummins A series is a horizontal shaft diesel, not vertical I don't think Cummins would change engine production for Exmark. Regardless; the A series is like all Cummins diesels low maintenance, easy to maintain, fuel efficient, lots of low end torque. The Specs are: depending on ECM programing, 31-60HP 69-135 FT/LBS hefty 485lb engine weight. Exmark is going to have to fabricate a heavy duty frame to support the Cummins diesel, I would trust the engine out of the box, but would need to see how Exmark plans to harness the power & torque without building a 2,000lb mower.

tb8100
06-15-2008, 01:56 AM
The Cummins A series is a horizontal shaft diesel, not vertical I don't think Cummins would change engine production for Exmark. Regardless; the A series is like all Cummins diesels low maintenance, easy to maintain, fuel efficient, lots of low end torque. The Specs are: depending on ECM programing, 31-60HP 69-135 FT/LBS hefty 485lb engine weight. Exmark is going to have to fabricate a heavy duty frame to support the Cummins diesel, I would trust the engine out of the box, but would need to see how Exmark plans to harness the power & torque without building a 2,000lb mower.

All the new Lazers will be vertical shaft. But yes, it will be interesting to see how they come out!

tb8100
06-15-2008, 01:59 AM
tb8100, Would you happen to know what model year they will be coming out? I can't wait to see a mower with a Cummins diesel.

there are models out right now as we speak being tested at select dealers across the country. However, the official release date for models will likely be this fall, for the 2009 model year.

freshprince94
06-15-2008, 02:08 AM
I wanna see a Phazer with a Cummins on it! Lol that would be WAY overkill but cool.

As for that 38hp Cummins, that reminds me of Home Improvement where Tim Allen had that Dixie Chopper with the jet engine on it.

cpel2004
06-15-2008, 02:37 AM
Dont know if I would consider a diesel any time with prices close to $6 a gallon, however if its true is good to know that somebody in the industry is willing to add some balls to their mowers. I never understood the 25hp Kubota deal, what a waste.

topsites
06-15-2008, 03:56 AM
I want my trimmer dieseling lol

Cummin's 25cc'ers
Runs all day on a pint of Bio.

This is interesting info.

Prostreetcamaro....to go fast, you need power. (of all people, you should know this!) 25hp (gas or diesel) won't cut it on a high performance ZTR of today. The big pumps, and big suction decks all take power.

Uhm gas has horsepower, but diesel has torque...
Now in a street application with gears and what have you it is a bit of a trick to gear a diesel to go fast...
It can be done, but ultimately in a race between horses and torque, the horses always win but that doesn't mean the diesel is a slouch either... If properly geared you can get a torque application to go pdq.

But in a hydraulic drive it shouldn't even matter, it's more of an issue of getting the pressure from the pumps.
Once you got psi going through the lines it shouldn't really matter whether the engine has horsepower or torque.
Might take it a second longer to rev up to wot rpm's, but once there it might even turn out the diesel has better staying power.

tacoma200
06-15-2008, 04:09 AM
You can bet I would stay away for a few years until all the bugs were worked out. Seems like every company that makes a radical change messes up. I'm glad I have my 05 Utra Cut Lazer, they may build a better one some day but not by much.

05 Lazer = nothing wrong, nothing broken so I guess they will fix it.

I've been a guinea pig one too many times, so some of you can buy the first one.

AdamChrap
06-15-2008, 10:02 AM
Sounds good and we all know Cummins is one of the best diesel manufacturers on the market today. Its time for exmark to make some changes IMO mainly get rid of the triton deck.


What I want to know is why has somebody not come out with even smaller diesels for smaller machines? A 25hp diesel on a 60" would be more then enough power. Diesels make torque and if a 25hp gas engine can power a 60" deck just fine then surely a 25hp diesel wouldn't even break a sweat and it would sip fuel to boot.


WHY oh WHY are we getting close to 40hp on mowers????????????????? Its not needed!

Allot of people forget that a diesel mower is much much heavier then a gas mower. I have a 60' and 72' toro with 25hp diesel kubotas and I would not want to go any smaller then that. I had a 27hp dihatsu that I traded in because it was so heavy that the power to weight ratio was actually better on the 25hp.

johnnybravo8802
06-15-2008, 10:43 AM
I don't think it's as much about the power versus the ride and comfort of the machine. The comfort is what you're dealing with 12 hrs/day not the power of the engine. I asked Exmark years ago when they were ever going to create a better riding machine-they've been behind the 8 ball for a while with the ride of their mowers!!!!!!:hammerhead:

MONTE
06-15-2008, 10:54 AM
I know the bladeruuner mowers that had the cummins a series engines were really heavy. That is one of the reasons they pushed the lombardini engines instead! By the way the cummins a series is built by a company in south korea! can't remeber there name.

Albemarle Lawn
06-15-2008, 01:16 PM
Looked at the A series on the Cummins website, by no means any vertical shaft motors. ALL ARE 3 AND 4 CYL HORIZONTALS.

I would choose Kubota...a lifetime of more experience in the small engine category.

tallimeca
06-15-2008, 02:49 PM
i don't think exmark would throw a new line of lazers out there with issues. yes, there was alot of complaints on the triton decks, but compared to sales numbers, they were few, and they were in certain markets. From what i know they have had these new prototypes built for a year working changes on them, and went into testing this year. It was talked about being a 2010 model. Again, this is all rumors and through the grapevine. They send this stuff out on national account and they beat them to death.

Exmark has some cool testing procedures. They have a test that they run a deck and a pipe comes up into the blades hydraulicly. They have a bump track test that basically the mower drives around in circles over a ton of little speed bumps to shake the crap out of it.

i wouldnt' sweat it.

They had the navigators out there in testing for a while before they came to market and there have been no issues with them at all. The Metro 26 was a little different story...but they've fixed those issues, but not without cost and repercussions.

tb8100
06-15-2008, 03:10 PM
Looked at the A series on the Cummins website, by no means any vertical shaft motors. ALL ARE 3 AND 4 CYL HORIZONTALS.

I would choose Kubota...a lifetime of more experience in the small engine category.

as of right now, Exmark is going the way of vertical shaft engines. Less moving parts and more power to the blades.

Cummins has been making engines for Branson tractors for years. They're more than proven. Is kubota a good engine manufacturer, yes. However, the 25hp is not enough these days. They have a 28 and 31hp that are alot more desirable, however.

tb8100
06-15-2008, 03:13 PM
I know the bladeruuner mowers that had the cummins a series engines were really heavy. That is one of the reasons they pushed the lombardini engines instead! By the way the cummins a series is built by a company in south korea! can't remeber there name.

Branson now makes them, IIRC.

cmills
06-15-2008, 04:25 PM
Cummins makes good engines, but having a 400lbs+ engine on a mower is too much in my opinion, the 200lbs diesels that are on them now are heavy enough.

milo
06-15-2008, 11:03 PM
its about time for them to upgrade scag should too. and dixie chopper well they should have upgraded like 10 years ago. hustler has like the newest design out and is one of the best mowers out there by far.
they should lower ride height, shorten, vertical engine and one more thing i really wish more companys would do is have a rear discharge deck.
i have a great idea of what the newer zero turn mowers should look like and how to make better. any mower company want to hire me? got great ideas and i just want 50,000.00 a year

J&R Landscaping
06-15-2008, 11:26 PM
Was used in the Everide diesel Hornet, only like 18 HP though.

A vertical would be nice if its not too loud or shaky, probably only a 2-cylinder, hard to get the shake out.

I wanted an Exmark Lazer XS but the change of direction of power via twisted belt from Horizontal motor was a deal killer.

Bobcat used that Yanmar as well. 750cc 20hp.

tacoma200
06-15-2008, 11:38 PM
its about time for them to upgrade scag should too. and dixie chopper well they should have upgraded like 10 years ago. hustler has like the newest design out and is one of the best mowers out there by far.
they should lower ride height, shorten, vertical engine and one more thing i really wish more companys would do is have a rear discharge deck.
i have a great idea of what the newer zero turn mowers should look like and how to make better. any mower company want to hire me? got great ideas and i just want 50,000.00 a year

The John Deere 800 series is new, you could try one of those.:)

TLS
06-15-2008, 11:43 PM
All they need to do is introduce a TURBO to these little 25hp diesels, and you'd have the best of both worlds.

johnnybravo8802
06-16-2008, 12:03 AM
its about time for them to upgrade scag should too. and dixie chopper well they should have upgraded like 10 years ago. hustler has like the newest design out and is one of the best mowers out there by far.
they should lower ride height, shorten, vertical engine and one more thing i really wish more companys would do is have a rear discharge deck.
i have a great idea of what the newer zero turn mowers should look like and how to make better. any mower company want to hire me? got great ideas and i just want 50,000.00 a year
Too late Milo. I've already made millions all with my ideas!!:cool2::cool2:

Lawnut101
06-16-2008, 12:11 AM
That Cummins motor will be sweet! And I'm glad to hear that Exmark is bringing back the Ultracut. I've heard that it was a great deck.

nosparkplugs
06-16-2008, 12:33 AM
All they need to do is introduce a TURBO to these little 25hp diesels, and you'd have the best of both worlds.

While I agree 100%, diesels have always benefited the most from turbo charging, and some would complain about the "extra" cost a turbo option would bring to a diesel mower price.

DLCS
06-16-2008, 12:43 AM
i don't think exmark would throw a new line of lazers out there with issues.
Exmark has some cool testing procedures. They have a test that they run a deck and a pipe comes up into the blades hydraulicly. They have a bump track test that basically the mower drives around in circles over a ton of little speed bumps to shake the crap out of it.

.

John Deere introduced the 600 and 700 series in 2002. I bought one of the first 757's and I had no issues with it from day one. So, I bought one of the first 850a and have had nothing but problems.

John Deere uses the same tests that you posted above for their ztrs. I got some pics somewhere of the circle tests with curbs every so many feet. JD would actually make the ztr jump them to see if they could break the frame. They use to do the pipe test on their decks too but don't know if they do that anymore. The real testing used to be done by lco's all over the country, in different conditions. I don't think they do that anymore and I believe thats their problem. The LCO can test a machien better than a circle track or a computer. Just my .02

tacoma200
06-16-2008, 12:51 AM
Exmark is a very smart company but so is John Deere. After the Triton problems, XR7 problems and now John Deere problems I just have a wait and see attitude with any new product. They tested all the above and missed something each time, I hope the new model works out for them. They are getting rid of the Mule belt drive after they all but perfected it? I guess there really were no vertical engine options until recently if you wanted high hp.

DLCS
06-16-2008, 01:06 AM
Exmark is a very smart company but so is John Deere. After the Triton problems, XR7 problems and now John Deere problems I just have a wait and see attitude with any new product. They tested all the above and missed something each time, I hope the new model works out for them. They are getting rid of the Mule belt drive after they all but perfected it? I guess there really were no vertical engine options until recently if you wanted high hp.


I will never buy another "new" model again until its been out a year. What pisses me off about JD is that there was nothing wrong with the 700 series machines. The pumps were fine and so was the deck hangers. Now we are going back to the chains and god only knows what they are going to do with the pumps. I'm sure the changes boiled down to cost and less inventory for them. But this bit them in the arse cause you know it has cost them customers.

nosparkplugs
06-16-2008, 01:08 AM
John deere tests their Commercial ZTR's on their "test" track also. I would love a massive diesel powered front or mid mount ZTR, but when I get out in our real world mowing, the Walkers just spank all other mowers we have owned regardless of the power plant, what use is all that diesel power if you cannot fit it in tight area's, and large area's both? our large 60" deck sits in our shop or on the trailer most of the time due to its massive deck. Smaller nimble ZTR's with diesel power Kohler (v-twin) is going to be the industry standard here soon. Walker MT powered buy a light Kohler V-twin diesel would serve us well

milo
06-16-2008, 04:12 PM
i got to check out that new jd 800. is it like new from the ground up???? or just changed a few things?/??

spooln6
06-17-2008, 12:39 AM
I would love a P-pumped Cummins on a mower! Preferably something similar to a 4BT.

jkilov
06-17-2008, 06:32 PM
I'm not too keen on diesel mowers. A 1300lb ZTR is hard on the turf enough. Besides, who's gonna repair that thing if something goes wrong. I have belief in cummins but anything can break down.

At 100+lbs with a little warm up I can lift a gas V-twin off myself and service about 70% of it if need be. And there's no fat lump sticking out the back when turning.

They should make a lighter, compact, cheaper engine. Perhaps an in-line 2-cyl 2-stroke diesel.