What a laugh!!

[Chilehead]

So this new prospect emails me to do an estimate for mowing his property. It's a fairly small lot, so I bid $30.00 a cut. He emails me back saying that his "current" provider is cutting it for $25.00 a cut and is performing bed & lawn weed control for free. I totally bust out laughing! Another case of some people doing anything for peanuts. I then reply to him saying that I am staying firm with my bid. I really wish that there was a mandatory (not optional) exam that people had to take to be a professional landscaper. If U.S. status was a prerequisite, and if such a program was publicized enough, I really think that some of the "el cheapo squads" would have a hard time: it would be MORE of a crime for them to operate(it's already a crime).

[Brianslawn]

we lost one to a guy charging $5. i guess trimming, edging, blowing, and mowing the back yard are extra. haha!

saw another new lawnboy today dragging his push mower down the street behind his pickup truck. i didnt look close enough, but he may have had weed whacker tied to ball hitch, too. hahaha!!!


did taco bell just fire a bunch of dumb white guys nationwide? the mexicans are the expensive ones around here. haha!

[zemzabob]

I can't see how any of these guys makes a profit really.

[MOW PRO LAWN SERVICE]

No overhead..simple live cheap work cheap..

[soloscaperman]

No overhead..simple live cheap work cheap..



I have to say that is there answer.

[jeffex]

IMO you NEVER wish for more regulation of your industry. That is a monster that may help you at first but when they cleanup the lowballers they don't just sit back.... they come after you for BS . Regulations grow to feed on you to hire more regulators .... and so it goes.. Just compete and don't sweat the little guy.

[Chilehead]

IMO you NEVER wish for more regulation of your industry. That is a monster that may help you at first but when they cleanup the lowballers they don't just sit back.... they come after you for BS . Regulations grow to feed on you to hire more regulators .... and so it goes.. Just compete and don't sweat the little guy.

That's true about regulation. I'm talking about an exam like what plumbers, electricians, and hvac professionals have to take. Even lawyers must pass a state bar exam to practice law. What I'm trying to say is that there needs to be a test to prove competence in the green industry, not government regulation.

[jeffex]

I understand your desire to elevate this industry to be on par with plumbers and electricians but in a way it takes care of itself. If all you have to offer is mowing thats about the skill level of putting in a light fixture or cleaning out a drain. If your able to educate and sell to your customers proper turf mgt. ,shrub maintenance, landscaping etc..and make their place stand out from the mow and go crowd then your not in competition with those guys. Your better off spending your efforts in attracting clients on the higher end scale than wishing for some BS test to weed out the scrubs. But most of all who says they will take the test anyway and how much higher will your taxes be to pay for some schmuck to drive around looking for your lawn mower lisc. Just my view point. I say let the market take care of itself. Thats exactly what I love about this business...FREEDOM to be as good as I want (or bad) and charge what I can get!!!!

[topsites]

That's true about regulation. I'm talking about an exam like what plumbers, electricians, and hvac professionals have to take. Even lawyers must pass a state bar exam to practice law. What I'm trying to say is that there needs to be a test to prove competence in the green industry, not government regulation.

There is such a test, it's just de-regulated meaning we don't have to go to a physical location to take it and we don't get the score in our face. But every single day we get tested, this very thread is a perfect example of a customer 'giving' some of us the test, I am guessing you found this frustrating :p

But I am pretty sure plumbers, electricians, and hvac professionals get this very same test, too.
Because they quote jobs too, and then there's always that someone who can do it for less :p

[larryinalabama]

I understand your desire to elevate this industry to be on par with plumbers and electricians but in a way it takes care of itself. If all you have to offer is mowing thats about the skill level of putting in a light fixture or cleaning out a drain. If your able to educate and sell to your customers proper turf mgt. ,shrub maintenance, landscaping etc..and make their place stand out from the mow and go crowd then your not in competition with those guys. Your better off spending your efforts in attracting clients on the higher end scale than wishing for some BS test to weed out the scrubs. But most of all who says they will take the test anyway and how much higher will your taxes be to pay for some schmuck to drive around looking for your lawn mower lisc. Just my view point. I say let the market take care of itself. Thats exactly what I love about this business...FREEDOM to be as good as I want (or bad) and charge what I can get!!!!

Well said...........

[xpnd]

I can't see how any of these guys makes a profit really.

Really? If I would deduct income tax, sales tax, and business liability and vehicle insurance alone that is an extra 20K profit right there. For an extra 20K clear a year, I would probably throw it in too. They're only weeding the beds when something is said and trimming the hedges with a line trimmer. They're not our competition in the sense of quality standards and surely not in cultural management but their ever presence in the market serves only to depresse our prices. 'They' educate the customer to what a service price should be. "They' set the customer's price expectation. Just today when I arrived at a customer's site to spray, I found a flier in the door for $22.00 service. I'm charging $35.00; in reality I should be charging $40.00 or slightly more. If asked my reply is well, I'm legit, I report my income, insured, attend annual CEUs, yadda, yadda, yadda. My cost of doing business the right way is of no concern to the customer. His concern is getting the lawn serviced.

As our economy continues to spiral out of control due to soaring energy prices, we will see more and more of this. Not only that but we have painstakingly taught them how to do our jobs.

[calandscaper]

I can't see how any of these guys makes a profit really.

IMO here's how: They share a rental house (6-8) a house so rent is super cheap. They drive old pick-up trucks (no truck payments), most of the time no insurance, used equipment, operating illegally (no business license, taxes etc). Out west, a lot of these guys except cash only.

[StoneDevil]

umm.......................

[TforTexas]

I never saw a mention of the competency of their work. Just their price. If that's the standard by which we are judged then what happens when someone is charging MORE than you do? You then become the @#$$%ing joke. Do you really want the government dictating to you whether you qualify to mow lawns and at what price? And just who is going to pay for the administration and enforcement of this new bureaucracy?
Face it you are in a service profession that does not require a lot of training and specialized skills and does not require regulation. I started doing this pushing my lawn mower up and down the street with a pair of hand shears to trim, in the winter I carried a snow shovel around. Would you have the youngsters trying to make a few bucks arrested for operating without a license?
If a small operator can work with less overhead and thus charge less than you because he doesn't drive a big truck & trailer rig carrying a couple z-turns, walk behinds, string trimmers, stick edgers, backpack blowers, etc., so be it. There are plenty of lawns out there for everybody.
Concentrate on what you do, if your customers are happy with the service you provide and the price you charge for it, great! If their customers are dissatisfied with their service regardless of their price, the problem will take care of itself.

[k911lowe]

I never saw a mention of the competency of their work. Just their price. If that's the standard by which we are judged then what happens when someone is charging MORE than you do? You then become the @#$$%ing joke. Do you really want the government dictating to you whether you qualify to mow lawns and at what price? And just who is going to pay for the administration and enforcement of this new bureaucracy?
Face it you are in a service profession that does not require a lot of training and specialized skills and does not require regulation. I started doing this pushing my lawn mower up and down the street with a pair of hand shears to trim, in the winter I carried a snow shovel around. Would you have the youngsters trying to make a few bucks arrested for operating without a license?
If a small operator can work with less overhead and thus charge less than you because he doesn't drive a big truck & trailer rig carrying a couple z-turns, walk behinds, string trimmers, stick edgers, backpack blowers, etc., so be it. There are plenty of lawns out there for everybody.
Concentrate on what you do, if your customers are happy with the service you provide and the price you charge for it, great! If their customers are dissatisfied with their service regardless of their price, the problem will take care of itself.
ditto for me. i agree completely.

[brucec32]

It's really pretty simple.

If the prevailing wage for an unskilled worker = $8-10/hour

And a competent, experienced "professional" LCO working solo can make maybe $38/hour.

The "lowballer" new guy has choice of working for walmart, another lco, fast food, etc for $8/hour or so and having someone's boot on his neck all day telling him what to do. Or, he can charge half what you do and still make more than he can working for someone else. It's really pretty rational of them, if you think about it.

This is one of those unintended consequences of ignoring immigration and employment law for 2 or more decades in the search for "cheap" reliable labor. It was cute and fun when you felt you got a steal on good reliable workers. But over time it drove wages for laborers down to the point that your former potential employees can now easily beat your price with even the most bare bones operations. Anyone with a $2000 pickup and a $300 mower can still make more self-employed than they can working for you. Only the razor thin barrier of language kept this from happening years ago.

Thoughout history, businessmen have always tried to find a way to gain an unfair advantage over their competition, be it crying "free markets" when it suits them or "more government controls" when it doesn't. We winked and nudged at labor and immigration laws for a long time, squealing with delight at how easy it was to just shove a little cash at someone under the table and avoid all those pesky laws and taxes, while our supply of workers were paid less and less in inflation adjusted dollars. Eventually it reached the point where any form of self-employment beat working for someone else, since every worker was now in direct competition with the desperate man who just jumped the fence and needs to work, bad, just to survive.

If instead we had pushed for enforcement of those laws, wages would have risen to the point where our employees made a decent living and were content to do the work and let us worry about the business aspects. It's not without its own downsides (fewer people able to afford us) but wages are only one part of the business. Doubling wages does not double the cost of the product/service.

The industry cut its own throat with an unsustainable model of a meat grinder of new arrivals willing to work for less. It's just taken till now for the bleeding to have a noticeable effect since the previous economic boom hid most of it. It's been the ultimate ponzi scheme, reliant on a constant flow of new arrivals to continue.

So to combat this, today you need to sell based on 1) quality work, 2) professional presentation and proven experience, 3) rock solid reliablity, and 4) safety concerns (no shady charcters working on customer's properties when they're not home, or worse, when their daughter is) . As far as price...forget it. There is always some guy who can net $10/hour and blow your price away.

[xpnd]

It's really pretty simple.

If the prevailing wage for an unskilled worker = $8-10/hour........


Very thoughtful post. This is the sort of discussion insight/hindsight I was trying to prompt in my thread about the next 5 years in the business. Thanks. You have provided me a consideration I hadn't thought of.

[Roger]

That's true about regulation. I'm talking about an exam like what plumbers, electricians, and hvac professionals have to take. Even lawyers must pass a state bar exam to practice law. ....

Now, that is a stretch, ... putting grass cutting, bed maintenance, etc, in the same category as lawyers with regard to exams.

Just a reminder, these tasks spoken about here are unskilled. No education, no training, no special skills are needed. There is good reason why no exam is necessary.

I agree, a good post by bruce32. What I see is a trend toward ownership by the immigrants who now are doing the labor. What is the labor force in today's market, is the ownership and entrepreneur pool of tomorrow. Just because these folks are doing the manual labor today does not mean they will be doing the labor into the future. In the pool, undoubtedly, there are those who have the passion and drive to be the owners, hire others to help them. No, the percentage may not be large, but I still see the trend happening in the near future.

[larryinalabama]

Those that hire the Illegals are the true LOWBALLERS. Thankfully theres alot of new machinery that can replace labor. My bed edger cust about 45 minutes per 100' and can also dig a nice trench for installing sprinklers. Even a Il;legal cant compete with that. I have a bunch of 3pt equioptment, I even saw a tiller that levels and smooths your dirt for seeding in Turf magazine. Mowers are faster than ever, some claim to cut 6 acers per hour. Dingos can do the word of 3 people. Equiptment is the only way I can see competing in this business.

[JohnnyRoyale]

Those that hire the Illegals are the true LOWBALLERS. Thankfully theres alot of new machinery that can replace labor. My bed edger cust about 45 minutes per 100' and can also dig a nice trench for installing sprinklers. Even a Il;legal cant compete with that. I have a bunch of 3pt equioptment, I even saw a tiller that levels and smooths your dirt for seeding in Turf magazine. Mowers are faster than ever, some claim to cut 6 acers per hour. Dingos can do the word of 3 people. Equiptment is the only way I can see competing in this business.

I agree. Efficient, specialized equipment is key. Unskilled laborers WILL (not may) come and go, call in sick, come in hungover, drag their butts around or have their heads in the clouds for some lame BS excuse and they WILL (not may) screw you when you least expect it. Good equipment is always ready to work, rarely calls in sick, and can do most tasks faster than any laborer. I would much rather have 2 good guys with the right tools and equipment and pay them well, than 10 schmos with hand tools and wheelbarrows. I envy Bob The Builder-that guys got it figured out.

[larryinalabama]

I agree. Efficient, specialized equipment is key. Unskilled laborers WILL (not may) come and go, call in sick, come in hungover, drag their butts around or have their heads in the clouds for some lame BS excuse and they WILL (not may) screw you when you least expect it. Good equipment is always ready to work, rarely calls in sick, and can do most tasks faster than any laborer. I would much rather have 2 good guys with the right tools and equipment and pay them well, than 10 schmos with hand tools and wheelbarrows. I envy Bob The Builder-that guys got it figured out.

Usually Im the one hungover LOL Me and my 3 year old watch Bob The Builder togeather. My boy also love machinery.

I cant compete with the Illegals so Ive adapted and beat them at there own game

[daysel]

That's true about regulation. I'm talking about an exam like what plumbers, electricians, and hvac professionals have to take. Even lawyers must pass a state bar exam to practice law. What I'm trying to say is that there needs to be a test to prove competence in the green industry, not government regulation.

It's mowing. Not rocket science. I wouldn't compare it to an electrician. You need a bit more education to be an electrician/plumber etc.
That's why we have lowballers because anyone can mow. It's a no brainer.

[TforTexas]

When 12-13 year olds walk up and down their streets wiring breaker boxes, sweating copper, and charging freon to earn a little extra money that's when we'll have to start worrying.

[Gardens55]

I envy Bob The Builder-that guys got it figured out.

but can he fix it?

[daysel]

As long as our country allows them to come over here I'm using them. Don't like it? Secure the freaking borders.
This is how america works. That's why we are one of the richest countries but the most messed up in just about every other way. Because we do things for a profit.

[larryinalabama]

As long as our country allows them to come over here I'm using them. Don't like it? Secure the freaking borders.
This is how america works. That's why we are one of the richest countries but the most messed up in just about every other way. Because we do things for a profit.

With most states starting to crack down on Illegals your a fool to build your business around them, not to mention you could go to jail

[QualityLawnCare4u]

It's really pretty simple.

If the prevailing wage for an unskilled worker = $8-10/hour

And a competent, experienced "professional" LCO working solo can make maybe $38/hour.

The "lowballer" new guy has choice of working for walmart, another lco, fast food, etc for $8/hour or so and having someone's boot on his neck all day telling him what to do. Or, he can charge half what you do and still make more than he can working for someone else. It's really pretty rational of them, if you think about it.

This is one of those unintended consequences of ignoring immigration and employment law for 2 or more decades in the search for "cheap" reliable labor. It was cute and fun when you felt you got a steal on good reliable workers. But over time it drove wages for laborers down to the point that your former potential employees can now easily beat your price with even the most bare bones operations. Anyone with a $2000 pickup and a $300 mower can still make more self-employed than they can working for you. Only the razor thin barrier of language kept this from happening years ago.

Thoughout history, businessmen have always tried to find a way to gain an unfair advantage over their competition, be it crying "free markets" when it suits them or "more government controls" when it doesn't. We winked and nudged at labor and immigration laws for a long time, squealing with delight at how easy it was to just shove a little cash at someone under the table and avoid all those pesky laws and taxes, while our supply of workers were paid less and less in inflation adjusted dollars. Eventually it reached the point where any form of self-employment beat working for someone else, since every worker was now in direct competition with the desperate man who just jumped the fence and needs to work, bad, just to survive.

If instead we had pushed for enforcement of those laws, wages would have risen to the point where our employees made a decent living and were content to do the work and let us worry about the business aspects. It's not without its own downsides (fewer people able to afford us) but wages are only one part of the business. Doubling wages does not double the cost of the product/service.

The industry cut its own throat with an unsustainable model of a meat grinder of new arrivals willing to work for less. It's just taken till now for the bleeding to have a noticeable effect since the previous economic boom hid most of it. It's been the ultimate ponzi scheme, reliant on a constant flow of new arrivals to continue.

So to combat this, today you need to sell based on 1) quality work, 2) professional presentation and proven experience, 3) rock solid reliablity, and 4) safety concerns (no shady charcters working on customer's properties when they're not home, or worse, when their daughter is) . As far as price...forget it. There is always some guy who can net $10/hour and blow your price away.


Well said. No matter how bad we try to sell ourself, try to educate the client, there will always be people looking for cheap lawn care and plenty of "will mow for 10 dollars" lco out there. I just try to consentrate on the few good ones I have left and to attract clients who are not looking for el cheapo but dependable and quality lawn care. I have just come to except this biz for what it is. You give it your best and try to get the best clients.

[brucec32]

I agree. Efficient, specialized equipment is key. Unskilled laborers WILL (not may) come and go, call in sick, come in hungover, drag their butts around or have their heads in the clouds for some lame BS excuse and they WILL (not may) screw you when you least expect it. Good equipment is always ready to work, rarely calls in sick, and can do most tasks faster than any laborer. I would much rather have 2 good guys with the right tools and equipment and pay them well, than 10 schmos with hand tools and wheelbarrows. I envy Bob The Builder-that guys got it figured out.


I agree, I have been able to offset my competition's cheaper labor with time saving machines and techniques over the years. I am much more time/energy efficient than in the early years. But that can only go so far, unfortunately. I am always on the look-out for a better faster easier to use machine. The cost of keeping another $5,000 machine around to make my job easier/faster and give me the exact best tool for a particular job is usually far less than replacing it with additional labor (at any price).

[godflesh]

Yeah, Ive lost a lot of em to the bottom feeder as well. Call me crazy, but i like to cost out my equipment and labor to cover overhead. Anybody else bid based on cost per machine hour?

[nosparkplugs]

I have done well this year, gained many new commercial accounts,and lost one to a large LCO who lowballed me a smaller company. I focus on PROFESSIONAL SERVICE, leave the $25.00 yards to the idiots. I don't even get calls for that BS, guess I have established the proper image in town WALKER Mowers:laugh:.

[Branch manager]

I never saw a mention of the competency of their work. Just their price. If that's the standard by which we are judged then what happens when someone is charging MORE than you do? You then become the @#$$%ing joke. Do you really want the government dictating to you whether you qualify to mow lawns and at what price? And just who is going to pay for the administration and enforcement of this new bureaucracy?
Face it you are in a service profession that does not require a lot of training and specialized skills and does not require regulation. I started doing this pushing my lawn mower up and down the street with a pair of hand shears to trim, in the winter I carried a snow shovel around. Would you have the youngsters trying to make a few bucks arrested for operating without a license?
If a small operator can work with less overhead and thus charge less than you because he doesn't drive a big truck & trailer rig carrying a couple z-turns, walk behinds, string trimmers, stick edgers, backpack blowers, etc., so be it. There are plenty of lawns out there for everybody.
Concentrate on what you do, if your customers are happy with the service you provide and the price you charge for it, great! If their customers are dissatisfied with their service regardless of their price, the problem will take care of itself. :waving: I agree completely;compete with yourself, do your best, charge accordingly, sleep well at night. It's called pride.:usflag:

[socallawndude]

I hate these situations, and in socal they are all too common. If you are happy paying $25 then why are you calling me? People just don't understand they get what they pay for.

[socallawndude]

I understand your desire to elevate this industry to be on par with plumbers and electricians but in a way it takes care of itself. If all you have to offer is mowing thats about the skill level of putting in a light fixture or cleaning out a drain. If your able to educate and sell to your customers proper turf mgt. ,shrub maintenance, landscaping etc..and make their place stand out from the mow and go crowd then your not in competition with those guys. Your better off spending your efforts in attracting clients on the higher end scale than wishing for some BS test to weed out the scrubs. But most of all who says they will take the test anyway and how much higher will your taxes be to pay for some schmuck to drive around looking for your lawn mower lisc. Just my view point. I say let the market take care of itself. Thats exactly what I love about this business...FREEDOM to be as good as I want (or bad) and charge what I can get!!!!

I agree entirely! Bottom line, if you're no good you won't last...

[Roger]

... if you're no good you won't last...

Or, if you are good, and realize another business is better money, you won't last either. Those who are good at managing a grass cutting business quickly move to other industries, or other more lucrative work. Only the middle sector stays around, some last, others don't.

[jeffex]

I'll agee that the success is in managing your business whether its cutting grass or washing windows...etc. Finding the profit margin that pays for your time and generates an excess to save for further investment in your business or ventures into other areas. The ease of entry to mowing makes it a true free market enterprise. The higher up you go bidding on larger contracts it can become political as well. I'm a little fish on purpose waiting a few more years to retire from a gov. job . Then I can test my abilities to manage and grow. Above all ,the ability to generate sales and GET customers is the key to the whole thing. After all anyone can cut a lawn. Many threads on these pages pertain to the quest to get new customers from putting out flyers to buying out existing business'. Talking to potential customers , networking , advertising, cold calling,sell.. sell .. sell.. whatever method you use to get the next lawn is what it takes to succeed. And when you get that customer , treat them with respect and do a good job. This simple phylosophy will grow you a grass cutting business. where you go after that is up to you. its not an easy start up as you wait for customers. how many have said to themselves, "if I only had a few more customrs I could..." Many quiit before the good money comes in.