Lawn care + Soil testing? Do you actually do it?

[JDUtah]

So there is a lot of background reading to bring me to this point but a basic summary is this...

The ultimate goal of organics is to create a healthy environment where nature is in balance so you do not need to spend an overabundance of effort and resources on maintiang the property.

Properties that have had ignorant/neglectful care have been thrown off balance and need help to be restored to their equilibrium.

Microbes play a significant role in the BALANCED ecosystem (soil food web), but their prominence in chemically fertilized soils is still debatable?

Hence, the best rout to restore a property to its natural and healthy function is to have a soil test done which includes testing the pH, salinity, texture, P, K, Nitrate-N, micronutrients, sulfate, and organic matter. Then have a bioassy that tells you what of these the plant is actually absorbing from the soil. (N, P, K, Ca, Mg, Na, S, B, Fe, Zn, Mn, Cu)

You then make educated decisions to what minerals, nutrients, organic matter, and microbes need to be replenished in order to restore the balance.

Once you achieve that balance you basically use proper mowing and cultural practices to sustain the healthy environment. (Great if you mow and care for the property :) )

So my question is this, how many of you actually have a thorough soil test and bioassy done for every property (at least the first & second year)?

And second, do you charge the customer for the test directly?

Or do you offer a complete care package with a monthly rate and include the test in that cost? (The tests out here run around $100)

I do not see the customer really jumping for joy just for a test unless they are really educated, which I doubt (that is probably why they are paying us to pull off a successful organic program on their property).

PM's welcome if you don't want to share it with the world. Thanks in advance.

[treegal1]

most of the time an exception might be next door does not get one, or 3 houses in a row, one test with a mix of yards.

[JDUtah]

most of the time an exception might be next door does not get one, or 3 houses in a row, one test with a mix of yards.

I knew you would answer something like that! :cool2:

So as I learn more of the 'organic' way it is a lot more pro-active. Which is good and in hind site obviously a more professional way to handle landscape maintenance in general.

Less- run over here and make it green, run over here and mechanically remove the thatch that you caused, run over here and chemically treat the disease that you let break out, then run over here and treat the bugs, then run over here and spray the whole lawn with herbicide because it let 5 weeds grow through it, then back to round two of the quick green up to start the process again.

[treegal1]

we do have a good lab here and we have a soil test kit of our own.

[JDUtah]

Does your soil test kit only do npk, or do you do micronutrients and OM as well? Also, do you still send the bioassy out? And lastly, do you test every year?

[treegal1]

Tests for nitrate nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus, magnesium, manganese, aluminum, sulfates, ammonia nitrogen, nitrate, nitrogen, chlorides, ferric iron, calcium, humus, ph and some other neat stuff, then the microscope is used and a sample sent off.

[JDUtah]

Tree, searching the net finds test kits for all those that = about $6-$9 a test. If you don't mind, how long on average does it take to perform all the tests for a given sample? (including cleanup)

[Kiril]

most of the time an exception might be next door does not get one, or 3 houses in a row, one test with a mix of yards.

Shame on you :nono:

[dtally]

We test a lot of them, but not all. It really depends on the age of the property, how much chem was put down, it's a judgment call. We use Logan Labs www.loganlabs.com. they seem do be very reasonable and have a very fast turn around. They e-mail the results. They also do tissue test, compost test and water quality test.

[treegal1]

shame??? so a bankrupt company is better??? or lose the yard to a chem guy because of the test cost???? gfys!!! maybe if there was some help from the great beyond we could all be as perfect and our sh*T wont stink

[treegal1]

I guess we should just quit as it seems that your method of judgment is so superior, we should just let you take care of every-ones yards. you can just come on down and spread that fruit, nut, and flake all over town and get a real feel for south Florida.

[dtally]

I think (maybe I am wrong) that soil testing is a tool, and a very good tool at that. I think the property location, microclimite, current condition of the property, and conditions of the surrounding area dictates the need of a soil sample. When was the last time "mother nature" sent in a sample.

Don't get me wrong, I am a true believer in soil samples, just not on every single yard.

[DeepGreenLawn]

OK, let us run the numbers...

An avg lawn here runs about $45/treatment, that is for traditional. Everyone uses different products and therefore has different costs. Everyone knows there are just as many if not more organic ferts out there to choose from. Let's say your using a more expensive product and your avg charge is $60/treatment.

On a 7 step program that comes out to $420/year gross. Your cost is $200/year for product, feul, insurance, etc. (These numbers are coming out of my a$$ and may be way off, I am just throwing them out there.) That gives you a $220/year profit per customer. You go out and do a soil sampler for $100 and that just cut your profits in half.

Tell me how that makes any kind of business since.


P.S.
I think Treegal took offense to that shame on you post.

[k911lowe]

I knew you would answer something like that! :cool2:

So as I learn more of the 'organic' way it is a lot more pro-active. Which is good and in hind site obviously a more professional way to handle landscape maintenance in general.

Less- run over here and make it green, run over here and mechanically remove the thatch that you caused, run over here and chemically treat the disease that you let break out, then run over here and treat the bugs, then run over here and spray the whole lawn with herbicide because it let 5 weeds grow through it, then back to round two of the quick green up to start the process again.

yup,that's the way to do it.were lawn men and women,not chemists.if the homeowner wants to test the soil,let him call someone.organics are nice if you do 2 or 3 lawns a day,otherwise its a pain in the ass.(donkey)and sometimes i wonder about their results and how it helps the environment.

[JDUtah]

yup,that's the way to do it.were lawn men and women,not chemists.if the homeowner wants to test the soil,let him call someone.organics are nice if you do 2 or 3 lawns a day,otherwise its a pain in the ass.(donkey)and sometimes i wonder about their results and how it helps the environment.

Um, I want to be the one he calls. And yes I have and currently offer chem fert & squirt services but am growing with complete care packs, and want to set those up maybe fully organic but either way I want to be the professional, not the band-aider due to signs of poor maintenance.

[JDUtah]

OK, let us run the numbers...

An avg lawn here runs about $45/treatment, that is for traditional. Everyone uses different products and therefore has different costs. Everyone knows there are just as many if not more organic ferts out there to choose from. Let's say your using a more expensive product and your avg charge is $60/treatment.

On a 7 step program that comes out to $420/year gross. Your cost is $200/year for product, feul, insurance, etc. (These numbers are coming out of my a$$ and may be way off, I am just throwing them out there.) That gives you a $220/year profit per customer. You go out and do a soil sampler for $100 and that just cut your profits in half.

Tell me how that makes any kind of business since.


P.S.
I think Treegal took offense to that shame on you post.

Deep,

I think the market to go for is different then the normal chemical peeps. You are looking for people who care to go organic and care enough to put money into it. They are people who have been educated that an organic property program is so much more then just using organic fertilizers and ways of pest control. You must also cut at the right times, keep the blades sharp enough, cut at the right height, water appropriately (not too much or too little), etc. So the market to go for are the people you can do complete care packages for. You do the spring clean-up. You do the fertilizing (topdressing and CT) you do all the mowing. You monitor the property for significant bugs and disease, you winterize and maintain their irrigation system, etc.

You also charge prime $$ for your taking EVERY single landscape care and concern off of their shoulders. And you make money. The soil test helps you be proactive so your plants naturally resist attack and you do not have to spend as much money and time to band-aid the problems that pop up.

If I remember right Treegal suggested you work in a mowing guy and sub it out? I think she was referring to the above idea. Remember it is a complete program/process.... and you (your organic company) should take care of it all.

Over one year you charge (partly random numbers)...
CT/Fert Sprays- $420
Mowing- $1230
Soil test- $100
Spring Clean up- $600
Compost topdress- $500
Sprinkler start up, shut down, and repair cushion- $650
Snow removal- $500

Total yearly gross for the one property- $4,000
25% net profit for the ONE property- $1,000

Note: The actual services you need to offer in your area differ. Net profit % and prices are relative as well.

Tree also mentioned that the organic thing is her deal(choice), not her customers. It just comes with what they buy. They buy the "look". I read it as her meaning that the customers are more interested that she maintain the property completely so they need not worry. (sorry if I'm off Treegal) The idea that you have a great landscape and do not need to think about it at all is very attractive to people. Especially those with money that need to focus their resources (time and brain power) on other things. The organic part is frosting on the cake in some cases.

Lol, now that you know my business plan... ;)

[LushGreenLawn]

shame??? so a bankrupt company is better??? or lose the yard to a chem guy because of the test cost???? gfys!!! maybe if there was some help from the great beyond we could all be as perfect and our sh*T wont stink

I agree, shame on you, but to give some detail... Even lawns that are next door to each other usually have a different chemical makeup. It all depends on what has been applied to the lawn in the past. Surley you don't think just because they are neighbors they have always used the same products?

Its just another way to cut corners, and give lawn treatment company's a bad name. Why don't you just buy a Tru-Green franchise.

[DeepGreenLawn]

I agree, shame on you, but to give some detail... Even lawns that are next door to each other usually have a different chemical makeup. It all depends on what has been applied to the lawn in the past. Surley you don't think just because they are neighbors they have always used the same products?

Its just another way to cut corners, and give lawn treatment company's a bad name. Why don't you just buy a Tru-Green franchise.

The fact that you are saying this about Treegal for the single reason that she does not do a test on EVERY lawn... you are an idiot. She takes organics to a level you and I can only dream of.

[JDUtah]

Agreed. Why attack Treegal for something so minuscule? At least she answered my question, none of you have addressed me in any of your posts. Oh, and PS, she gives to the Organic Forum WAYYYYYY more than either of ya, so to pipe in and not contribute like she does, but rather criticize? If you really think she is bad for that, send her a PM and explain your opinion.

[Organic a go go]

In a perfect world doing a soil test for every property might be preferred but its a great way to drive away a lot of customers in the real world.

I send samples out for testing when I've personally seen a need for it. Customers aren't calling me because they think I take a mean soil sample. They call me because they think I've got a d@mn clue about what I'm doing.


If I need a lab to tell me how to treat every property I come across then I should probably be doing something else.

[DeepGreenLawn]

Well put. I take tests as needed, other than that, especially with organics, I am just going to keep trucking, bring in compost more often and just lay down the CT.

[JDUtah]

I can see that mindset. However, how can you 'have a clue' where to take the property if you don't know exactly where it is at?

I understand that nature is forgiving and a general application of OM, CT and such will probably help, but I don't know, maybe I just have to much pride in wanting to do everything the best I can.

[DeepGreenLawn]

I definitely understand doing things the best you can. But, it falls back to the thing we are trying to do... make money, and spending this much on a property for a test is not that smart business wise. If I have a reason to do so, I will take a test, other wise, from what I understand, the lawn needs food, OM, and the good guys (microorganisms is a lot harder to type) to feed the lawn the food. After that, the lawn will generally take care of itself. Correct? In nature the lawn doesn't get a soil test and have what is needed applied. It gets what it needs from what it has. As far as I am concerned OM and the good guys are a lot better than what it had to begin with and should be plenty to thrive off of especially with the correct cultural practices.

Basically, I have a business to run with limited income right this second. The costs are high, and getting higher, and taking $100 soil tests for every customer would probably cause me to shut my doors. And I know my customers aren't going to want to fork over the costs. They aren't exactly "sold out" just yet.

[treegal1]

well out of several hundred soil tests we have a baseline. and the 3 yards in a row, all new construction, same dirt same sod same age same everything. so whats wrong with 1 test, nothing!!!! the yards that need a test every time are the yards that are older and have had large inputs for some time, those are the ones that get a test every-time!!!
sand hill with no inputs?? save the soil test for later, after there's some thing to test, compost, tea,fert, then test whats missing. to test before hand is a waste, there's nothing.

[JDUtah]

My business mindset might be a little different. Part of that is do to 2 amazing books that catalog the differences between extremely successful businesses and successful businesses. Both studies performed by Jim Collins and his professional research teams.

They mention several factors that the biggest businesses utilize that the big ones do not...

A couple that may apply...

The biggest companies focused on three things...
1- What can you be the best in the world at?
2- What is your biggest factor to generate profit? (I know this one for me and have demonstrated it, but sorry, I'm not letting this one out of the bag.)
3-What are you deeply passionate about?

Also...

"Profitability is a necessary condition for existence and a means to more important ends, but it is not the end in itself for many of the visionary companies. Profit is like oxygen, food, water, and blood for the body; they are not the point of life, but without them, there is no life."

I recommend both the books
"Good to great"
then
"Built to Last"

I will read them prolly 4 times each witihn the course of the next few years.

[treegal1]

woooooooooa, stop the bus,

the 3 things that the biggest business concentrated on where
1) pollute to get rich at the expense of the people!
2)rape the earth to exhalte there greed!
3)ambiguously lie to conceal there real intent!

mine is more simple, profit to execute change, not some phony $hit real change. don talk the talk to get to the bank. money has and will have very little to do with what i feel is correct. the world we live in, the TREES, children's children. poor people that are hungry, for no good reason other than greed!

really if i had a way today, i would live with the bunlap or the wollani or chochan peoples just to get away from the $$$ thinking just like that, think correctly and the $$$ will come naturally.

[JDUtah]

lol, I can see your point.. and maybe I worded things wrong.. The books take 1 chapter each to explain the selection of the businesses sampled. I said biggest, maybe they aren't, but their stocks did perform way better (at least double) than other companies in thier own industry.

I agree yours is more simple tree, but he can't sell a phrase, he needs a book. ;)

The idea is the same though... think correctly (pursue some deeper purpose then plain profit) and the money will follow. That idea is what most (not all) of the model companies did.

I give a bad reproduction of the principles in the book, i still suggest you read 'em.

[treegal1]

lim collins is great, he has some other good books out there. one day I will get a chance to read more.

[Kiril]

shame??? so a bankrupt company is better??? or lose the yard to a chem guy because of the test cost???? gfys!!! maybe if there was some help from the great beyond we could all be as perfect and our sh*T wont stink

I assume this is aimed at me?

Let me paint a picture for you TG.

You have three yards, none of which can be considered the same. You take a number of soil samples from each yard and mix them together to consolidate your $25-50 dollar test ($22 from UFL for 3 tests, that number has bankruptcy painted all over it).

Now the test result comes back showing problems with several nutrients.

Which yard has the nutrient problem?

Do you just assume that they all do? Is it responsible practice to assume all yards have the same deficiencies? If it was only one yard that caused the results to show a deficiency, is it fair to the other two clients to charge them to "fix" a nutrient problem they do not have?

If this is how your going to do soil samples, then perhaps you might consider just not doing them at all since your not really getting any useful information from them.

[treegal1]

there's the picture, now for some fact. the 3 yards, after the box blade and skid-steer finished, yeah they were pretty much the same, same truck co for the same fill, same same same, mixed about 6/7 spoons of dirt and went with it. that makes me 1 that tested out of 325 services that did not.

is it a responsible practice to assume, you think so, other wise you may just ask and not judge.

and to estimate based on past tests on locally similar(undisturbed/ untreated soils) in the size yards that are in the heights area1/16 to 1/8 acre lots,WTF how many soil test per acre do you recommend???

also tell us all great OZ how to target load some tea or compost to over come our possible deficiency's?? i am sure that there are many of us just waiting to have some light shed on these issues??? no one talks about changing the soil over nite, so whats the rush to get the soil tested, is there a rule that says no improvement before a soil test.

[Kiril]

I invite you to read your original post and explain to me how anyone reading this forum is to understand what exactly you mean.

most of the time an exception might be next door does not get one, or 3 houses in a row, one test with a mix of yards.

If you can't say what you mean clearly, don't say anything at all.

[treegal1]

it just seems like ya put the rain gage before the pump???

and in what context would there be after the test,

1) change the tea some how, for just one yard?? all 1550 gallons of it???
2)custom blend some compost for that yard, lets see how you do it??
3)add sulfur to lower pH or other amendments as needed? whats the harm in some tea first.


and the hidden cost for the test, it probably does not apply to a 1 man band, fuel, labor,vehicle,postage,packaging.

we do sent out tests 5 times a year, 2 days to collect the ones we need tested and there all off.then we get a real good "IDEA" of whats happening to the whole and not the parts

[treegal1]

most of the time they ask???

"If you can't say what you mean clearly, don't say anything at all"

I think i heard that before in an old news reel, not sure though it was in German

[JDUtah]

Some debate is good. And had she not posted her original post, and you not challenged it, none of us would understand as clearly as we do now how she does things.. and how apparently you do things, or think they should be done at least.

[DeepGreenLawn]

change the tea some how, for just one yard?? all 1550 gallons of it???

FINALLY! Someone else coming on here and making a point that suggests we are trying to run a business and not a single lawn.

1550 gal?!? What have you got pulling that thing? Or is that just your main tank you run out of?

[JDUtah]

You can apply Bills aproach of onsite mixing and have stores of each microbe (set?) that you want and be more precise in the application. BUT...

Since the microbes can generally wait until they have food, in my opinion you can have a master tea and use it.

The soil test does not determine what microbes are present. In another thread i resurrected it is evident that mother nature is pretty resilient. But they do help determine what the mineral and organic nutrient balance is and help you know where to go to balance THAT out. Then the microbes can goto town in whatever fashion is required for the plant.

Remember, it is a system, delicate or not our goal is to assist it.

Also, in mother nature things are balanced, but are they still after humuns got involved on that particular property? The best way to find out IMO is to test the soil AND the plant tissue, compare the two and see.

[DeepGreenLawn]

"The best way to find out IMO is to test the soil AND the plant tissue, compare the two and see."

Multiply that by 200 customers, a typical traditional truck load, and all I see and hear is $$$$$$$$$$$$

I have two lawns I am going to be getting tests done on. One is one that some azaleas wont bloom. Pretty simple test, the other has spots popping up everywhere and is starting to look like a disease. This may be a little more costly. We shall see. I plan on passing that bill to the customer.

[JDUtah]

Lol, I searched and you can find thorough soil test kits that cost you $6-$9 per lawn, then use your local state university for the Bioassy (out here it's $35). You can do it for under $50. It is not every time you need to do it either. (every couple years maybe? but for sure the first.)

Let's pull an old friend out...

Your cost... $50
Customers cost... $75-$100
A happy customer because their plants now have the best environment to grow in... priceless.

Mind you they don't know WHY their plants look better, they just know you succeeded.

Remember the context, generally these are not your fert and squirt mindset customers, they want you for it all.

But I am off to play some catchup. I might be going out of town this weekend too, so I'll catch you all later.

PS, good luck with the tests and properties!

[treegal1]

luck, thats for amateurs, it is a skill thing, doing this for as long as we have............

[treegal1]

500 gallon brewer watered down to 1550 gallons for loading the trucks/ vans. the 1500 gallon brewer that gets watered down as it gets loaded 1:4. 5 c200 loads per day x 4 rigs.

[DeepGreenLawn]

how long does it take you to brew something that big? Do you just put the compost into a fine net to brew it?

[treegal1]

fine net.......... not exactly,,,,..,,,,,er .... mesh metal basket in the one and no nothing in the other, just chuck the casts in...... dump them out of a barrel, around 200lbs

[DeepGreenLawn]

do they just dissolve?

[NattyLawn]

Basically, I have a business to run with limited income right this second. The costs are high, and getting higher, and taking $100 soil tests for every customer would probably cause me to shut my doors. And I know my customers aren't going to want to fork over the costs. They aren't exactly "sold out" just yet.


If they aren't sold, then you aren't doing your job. When dealing with organics, you're feeding the soil, not the plant. So it's best to know what the soil composition beforehand, so we can correct soil deficiencies then start a program. You get the most bang for your buck this way. Easy for the customer to understand.

And I wouldn't mix tests from different lawns together, unless they were all untouched new construction. I had a neighbor say "Why can't you go by my neighbor's test?" Well, because they've been applying our products themselves for the last 3 years. Thes tests wouldn't come back the same". It doesn't help anyone when you try to cut corners.