What is your process?

[DeepGreenLawn]

OK, I have an issue, the drought is back, never went away but we had some relief, and I need to make a strategic move soon. Plus I am just curious as I am trying to figure out my program for my organic customers.

99% of my customers are lawns that have been cared for by traditional chems for years. The customers have come to expect a certain reaction, as have I, with each treatment but that is a different story.

Treegal, I am particularly interested in your point of view.

You get an established lawn that has been pounded with chems. It is OK, but not great, you can tell it is beginning to take its toll. They want organics. What is your first few steps?

Organic ferts with CT?

Immediate compost topdress with CT?

I am not sure, I personally have been pounding it with an organic fert and ICT trying to rebuild the good guys. But it is taking its time. I have added a little Fe to help with the customers request for the GREEN lawn.

What are your thoughts?

And no, I cannot tear it up and start over again, these are sodded lawns and no one is going to pay the money for that.

[treegal1]

hold the tiller, no tare out yet!!!!

this will draw in some lurkers for sure,LOLOL

start up yard, 2 kinds of yards

yard 1) no inputs, sand hole with weeds and no sprinklers!
core aerate or PHD/ vertical composting, top dress, Ctea, wetting agent(real heavy) NO TEST!!!! yada yada yada what no test. this is my way.....just listen!

yard 2) heavy inputs, the chem type with a N addiction!!!
this one gets a test first!!! then you lay on the tea to bioremediate the @$#%&%^*&&* that the idiots put down. most of the time they will coast on the N that's in the ground for a month or 2 (that's when ya get you post in order)after the tests back then ya hit it with the OM (compost) and more tea aerate and(over seed??) fertilize(product or compost) and add what you feel is needed inputs.

all yards!!!!

proper mowing height, don't ask me I will tell ya 4 inches or 5!
WATER PROPERLY, THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT STEP!!
WASH YOUR DECKS! a clean mower lasts longer to!
post a sign to let everyone know how to care(not to add chems) for the yard( for info callXXX-XXX-XXXX)
inform the customer, do this in writing so they can read it a lot!!! tell them about what you do!!
start and quarterly pics, you will thank me later. see i told ya so is a favorite quote for most pics.LOLOL

the compost is the key!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DeepGreenLawn]

yard 1: you would overseed down there correct? here I would let the old grass, what was left, come back through? or would the topdress require me to resod? I guess it wouldnt be that deep. You hand pull the weeds correct?

Yard 2: I just cut this yard today, I haven't gotten them as a customer yet but it was already full of weeds again. I wander if they charge extra for grassy weeds like the other guy? I have not seen a yard grow like this in A LONG time. Even my traditional yards don't come close to this amount of growth in weeks! That is another post, I guess for another thread(?)

All yards: OK, I am screwed. You see, up here we are under a watering ban. My county just raised so we can water on certain days with our sprinklers. The other counties are still under a ban where they can only HAND water after each treatment. I am looking more and more into this trying to find that ONE person that will say we can use the sprinklers to water in a treatment. Pass the buck right? No longer my fault, he/she said so. I guess I need to record my calls or get things in writing...

I went to my first organic only lawn today again... I kind of cheated a little though, she had some dreaded goose grass in a corner and I sprayed! Oh man, I am so ashamed... that stuff is such a pain though! But hey, this is like a 12K sq ft lawn and for just a little batch of goosegrass in a corner is not bad for no pre-m's/chems, until now... Looking good though, I just wish the customer would get a new mower, if they had a good mower that thing would look GREAT!

[treegal1]

this is the standards we keep for compost.
Test Parameter Range
pH 6.8-7.3
Soluble Salts 0.35-0.64 dS/m (mmhos/cm)
(1:5 v/v method)

Nitrogen 1.0-2.0%
Phosphorus 0.6-0.9%
Potassium 0.2-0.5%
Moisture Content 45-50%
Organic Matter 35-45%
Particle Size passes 3/8" screen
Bulk Density 900-1,000 lbs/yd3

[DeepGreenLawn]

you make your compost to meet these requirements? How do you get it to these measurements? Add certain items?

Particle Size passes 3/8" screen

I wish I had a screen, I can't find anything without big wood chips in it.

[treegal1]

yes we make the post test out that good!!!naturaly!!!

we only grow grass from runners now.

the out of hand growth = fert input overages = law broken???

eh so ya cheated a little, say your sorry to the worms and go on trying to do it better. next time bring your torch and shovel( ever notice that ground that gets dug grows grass better??)

[treegal1]

if ya cant get a screen and ya need one that bad i will loan ya mine or build ya one.

ask around up there find a goot tinkerer we have plans for a large and a small

[treegal1]

how to get the N up in compost, chicken$h*t, or lake weeds:laugh:

[JDUtah]

Deep,

From what I understand...

Compost topdress it the FIRST thing you should do. (after core aeration and overseeding :hammerhead:).

The point of CT's are to restore microbes to the soil so that they can work to re-establish the balance in the soil.

Generally, the point of fertilizers (organic or not) is to make a LOT of 'almost ready' nutrients available to the microbes to finish preparing for plant absorption.

Applying these (fert and CT) and these only could actually be working against the natural balance you are trying to establish.

The fertilizer is readily available to only select microbes in your CT. These microbes will feed on the abundance of this fertilizer and explode in numbers. They will also make that fertilizer readily available to the plant over a relatively short period of time.

Then your fertilizer is quickly eaten up by this mass number of certain microbes and nothing is left. The microbes then go dormant and/or die.

In the end you have not really come closer to the organic goal.

------------------

Now throw compost into the equation.

You introduce compost, overseed, and spray with a CT...

The compost acts as your organic fertilizer as it contains (holding to TreeGals specifications...) 2 - .6 - .9

The compost also contains anywhere from 1-50% humus which will help to aggregate the soil which not only lets water be held in the soil by capillary action (the only type of water in the soil that is available to plants). The humus is also a fertilizer for the plants as Mycorrhizae work to break it down and give it to the plant. The humus might also create an appropriate environment for the microbes in your CT to thrive instead of just die.

The compost ALSO contains the microbes in your CT and therefore relates to the 're-intorduction' of microbes directly.

The compost also contains (Treegal again) 35-40% organic matter. This is your 'time release' part of your 'compost fertilizer'. The microbes both in your compost and your CT will continue to work on the OM and make it available to the plant over time. (remember you want to reach the natural balance)

Now for your CT. The CT helps to restore microbes to the soil that may be lost. The microbes may be lost (killed off) for different reasons. Erosion/tilling, drought, salt?, lack of available nutrients, attack from other microbes...

Bills 123 which you have been using as your CT also contains fertilizer products. It's rating is... 2 - 0? - 2 & .1%Fe. At the application rate though, there really isn't enough for you to consider it fertilizer. (the iron is a good bonus but still pretty low)

They named that part of their 123 the 'accelerator' because its purpose is to cause the spike in microorganisms that I mentioned earlier. If I understand right he does this so in the first little while, the microbes have a chance (by sheer numbers) to leech into the appropriate parts of the soil and move into their new real estate.

Remember though, if there are no 'homes' for them to move into (organic matter, appropriate soil structure, and water) they will die in the desert and your application will have been in vain. You will still be doing the same thing as the chemical guys but are just using a different source to do so.

------

Another point I just thought of that might help people switch to more organic thinking is calculating how much N-P-K per 1,000 you are actually putting down with the compost. I know I had a tendency to look at the NPK numbers of compost and think that they were significantly lower than organic or chemical fertilizer. But then I remembered application rates MUST apply... Let me show you...

A chemical application of Lesco professional turf fertilizer (32-3-8) will give you per 1,000 square feet of grass...
-1 lb Nitrogen
-.09 lb phosphorus
-.25 lb potassium

A 1/4" application of Nature professional turf fertilizer (2-.9-.5) will give you per 1,00 square feet of grass... (check end of post for calculation methood)
-13.86 lb Nitrogen
-6.24 lb phosphorus
-3.47 lb potassium

So which is better...

1 or 13.86
.09 or 6.24
.25 or 3.47
Fert or Compost

You can apply at higher concentration numbers because the compost will release the nutrients in a BALANCED way. Make sense?


Calculation method...
Applying .25 inches of compost over 1,000 square feet requires .77 of a cubic yard of compost.

One cubic yard of compost (per Treegals spec) = 900 lbs.

Hence you are delivering 693 lbs of product per 1,000 with the compost and 3.1 pounds of product with the fertilizer... a big difference.

Potential for error...
I assumed that Tree's specifications of NPK (2-.9-.5) were a measure of wet weight. If they are a measure of dry weight compost the numbers will have to recalculated. Tree, if they are drywieght, do you have the weight per dry Yd3?

[treegal1]

50% moisture = 900 lbs/cyd, also that's available N the total is a lot higher 6%?? i don't really know, sorry i can find out?? and the herd whats there N content???? organics has hidden N around every turn

and we usually just take 2 tons per run on a trailer, shite for every one, every time. just a little at a time adds up fast.

[JDUtah]

If you can that would be great!

Another question to make sure, are your NPK %'s based on the wet sample (with the 50% moisture) or are they dry weight percentages?

And I didn't even think of the nitrogen in the little guys... makes you want to learn the testing procedure to see if that nitrogen could be added as well. But either way, so far the numbers impressed me.

[treegal1]

wet, we sent several samples off (we test it most of the time our self's) just like that, no drying no mods, just like we take to the fields, the UF tests are the ones we based our parameter's on. some times we get a hot batch some times we get a cool one, that's when we blend and mix. we aim for a consistent product( except custom blends) so our applicators don't have to much guessing to do

[DeepGreenLawn]

I got threatened today by one of my customers. He said that if we weren't friends I would have already been fired. He said he wanted his grass as green as the guys next door and to do whatever it takes to have it that way by the end of the week.:( This guy lives on a hill overlooking all of his neighbors so I just turned around and started pointing. First I asked how his lawn was weed wise and thickness wise. He said it was great, which I concurred obviously because it is a great looking lawn. I then pointed at the first lawn and went in a circle. "See their lawn? See the weeds? See their lawn? See the nasty thin/bare patches? See their lawn, they cut once already this week and it looks as though it hasn't been touched all month. See your lawn? It looks great, just is lacking the color." He again said to get his lawn green or I was done. :hammerhead:

I told him I would have his lawn green by the end of the week just to keep him. I think I will probably put down some Fe on Tues. and then follow up with a compost the same or next week to keep it going organic. Any other organic quick solutions to get it green? I know it's organic and organics take their time but you get the idea.

[treegal1]

urea time???? whats the real story does it need FE or N whats missing any tests??? whats the grass look like(yellow)???

listen just a freind here, your messing up some how,whats going on with your yards,seems like ya got some folks on the fence,its reality time, whats the readouts on any test for your area, is there P missing, K shortage, is the soil to hard/ soft(lol). do you just need some poo to get things going, water OK, sounds like a poo shortage.

OK short term, fish oils and some urea, load that on with some FE or lesco micros( its just metals ). the fish oils will make it shiny and add some faster N. if your in a bind (hate to do it but....)urea, and the metals FE that's the best plan i got without a test!!, could just be PH???

[DeepGreenLawn]

OK, that is what I needed to know I guess. I haven't gotten any tests done. The yard is only 3 years old maybe? And really healthy. It is a great stand of turf, just never had any "poo" put down. That is on the way though. I have fish oils in my fert and I have now added liquid Fe to my batch to help with a quick green, I think I may throw down some good ole fashion N fert as well just to make him happy until I really get the hang of it. I thought I had it, but apparently I am just running in place and not really getting any where with out some good ole poo. (Which I now understand.)

[Daner]

Before you put anything on that lawn...grab a soil sample first ...then lay down the quick fix,If thats what Its going to take to keep this customer... then when you get soil test results back You can put together a proper remedy...right now your just guessing...regular soil testing should be a part of your organic program .

D

[treegal1]

got to agree on the test thing, this one needs a test!!

how many tests do you have for that area???

[DeepGreenLawn]

cough cough

Huhmmm (throat clearing)

Wellll, you seeee, I have been so busy up to this week (hopefully) that all I do is service acounts, give estimates, and file paperwork. I haven't had time to even begin looking for a place to get compost, test putting it down, look into biofeul, etc, etc, etc,

So... I am hoping that now that things have slowed (again, hopefully) I can focus on tweaking my program and get things like soil tests included. Business is good, BUT, it is on the verge of being TOO good. I was considering pulling all my advertisement just so I would know I wouldn't recieve any more calls so I could focus on my existing customers. My call volume as dropped enough that I am just going to keep it there for now.

[JDUtah]

Sounds like your learning how to balance working in your business vs working on your business. It's fun stuff. Once you get the inner workings running it's nice to hire help to allow you to focus on the things to grow your business more. Great luck!

[DeepGreenLawn]

yeah, unfortunately the funds are not allowing me to bring in the help that I would like and I have more hats than I can wear in a day. Thankfully the way things are set up I will have a week or two off, or atleast to the point that I won't be absolutely covered up, between treatments that I can focus on "tweaking" the business to make it great and add different components such as my own compost and CT. Biodiesel is also on the list.

[DeepGreenLawn]

LOL, I was just looking at the numbers that tell you how many posts have been made and how many people have viewed. Obviously the same people do all the talking for the most part.

If you think about it, it kind of feels like we are having conversations with a really big crowd listening in all around us but never saying anything. Kind of like one of those talk shows,

Yeah, we should start our own talk show. From the views we get on our threads it seems we would do pretty good. :cool:

[treegal1]

I am already in the TV scene, we are in Eco kids, and a couple others, the one we are making for our self's should be out of editing soon. we already have several other ideas.

[DUSTYCEDAR]

get him some green glasses