I see green or your fired!

[DeepGreenLawn]

I posted this on another thread but thought I would start a new one as well.

Had a customer threaten me to make his lawn green like his neighbors or I was fired. He said if we weren't friends I would have been let go a while ago. Never mind the fact that his lawn was the healthiest on the street or that there were not any weeds. He just wanted it green. I then pointed to each "green" lawn and showed their downfalls. One was full of weeds, the other was all patchy and thin, and the other had grown a foot in just a few days.

"Green by the end of the week or your done. I don't care what you have to do."

[cpel2004]

Turn it green, collect your fee and drop him ASAP. He will continue to be a pain in your rear. Its too many good customers out there, to deal with this guys attitude. Let me guess, did you hook him on the price, you probably gave him a really good deal?

[treegal1]

is it yellow or is it just not thick??? whats it need to get it green?? N or FE or both???? is it time for some urea, yada yada, not realy organic??? whats the real issue???

[DeepGreenLawn]

No, it's green, just not the DARK green that you get after pouring the N on. The real issue is that it is an ego trip? that he is on and wants to be one up on the customers. He has a beautiful lawn, he, like everyone else, thanks that to have a good healthy lawn it has to be that really dark green. I treated his lawn first this last treatment and a batch or two after his I started adding Fe, so I am going to spray again and then probably just go ahead and throw some N on it to make him happy. I don't want to drop him and he is not getting a deal. He just wants his lawn green. I treat his neighbor too and they just went out and bought their own fert and put it down to make it green so I told him I was proud of him for having the patience thus far.

What N fert do you recommend to put down to get the good greening without doing more than I need to? Like I said, I should be putting compost down here in the next week or so, so that should keep it a healthy green from now on correct?

[Daner]

No, it's green, just not the DARK green that you get after pouring the N on. The real issue is that it is an ego trip? that he is on and wants to be one up on the customers. He has a beautiful lawn, he, like everyone else, thanks that to have a good healthy lawn it has to be that really dark green. I treated his lawn first this last treatment and a batch or two after his I started adding Fe, so I am going to spray again and then probably just go ahead and throw some N on it to make him happy. I don't want to drop him and he is not getting a deal. He just wants his lawn green. I treat his neighbor too and they just went out and bought their own fert and put it down to make it green so I told him I was proud of him for having the patience thus far.

What N fert do you recommend to put down to get the good greening without doing more than I need to? Like I said, I should be putting compost down here in the next week or so, so that should keep it a healthy green from now on correct?

They all want there lawns green...From a distance...I have a bad feeling about your "wants the lawn green" customer...and the guy who laid down his own fert...not to sure about him as well...I think they call It too many cooks In the kitchen...maybe you haven't done soil tests on any of these lawns...not good...when a customer sees and know your are getting down to the nitty gritty and looking at there soil by testing...It shows professionalism...and then you set out a plan...If It were me ...I would not throw any quick fix on that lawn... untill you did a soil test.

[cpel2004]

Well. I didnt look at your name and it does say "Deep Green Lawn." You need to have a good working relationship with your customer, but it sounds like he will never be happy. Deep Green is there something you should have done to his lawn that you didnt do? Does the guy have a legitimate issue?

[DeepGreenLawn]

No, other than the compost, that I now know, I have done everything we have agreed to. He is an Hybrid customer, the deal is I use traditional weed controls and organic ferts. Organics are new here so I am still learning myself and did not understand the importance of compost. I have been applying my ferts and waiting witht he understanding that organics take a while. The reason most of my customers are organic is for the safety of their kids, he has a 2 year old and a 3 year old I believe. Well, now when it comes down to it he just wants the lawn a dark dark green. Like I said, to me it is a healthy green, not the N poured green like everyone else but a good green. Not yellow, green. He wants his lawn to be greener than his neighbors. One of those suburb cultural things where you have to have the best looking greenest yard. He even said, "their yard is the worst in the neighborhood and theirs is greener than mine." Well yeah, its crappy because all they do is pour chems on it.

I have held my part of the bargain, he just wants more, and I like to think I specialize in making customers happy. I look at it as a challenge.

[DBL]

youre going to need more than a week but pretty much anything is possible with time so if he gives it to you then get after it but if he doesnt..........

[Organic a go go]

Do a spray of fish emulsion and mix it extra stinky. If it doesn't give you a good green up and the guy fires you then his lawn will smell like a wharf on the wrong side of town for a week. He did say whatever you have to do....

[Kiril]

He did say whatever you have to do....

..............

[Kiril]

What N fert do you recommend to put down to get the good greening without doing more than I need to?

If you want to stay "organic", blood meal.

[DeepGreenLawn]

LOL, There are a few lawns in his neighborhood that paint their grass in the winter when it goes dormant. I am actually thinking about adding this as a service in the fall. I see more and more people "TRY" to copy the first guy but can never get the right color down or they make a mess and paint their driveway/sidewalk. It doesn't hurt the lawn and it keeps it green through the winter.

[treegal1]

ya know , actually have some green spray for palms, at show time the yellow fronds get a touch up. looks real.

sfi test and some blood or another N source, hold the green paint for later.:laugh:

[mngrassguy]

The reason most of my customers are organic is for the safety of their kids, he has a 2 year old and a 3 year old I believe.


So you are saying Organic ferts are non-toxic? You tell your customers this? Synthetic ferts are toxic?

[DeepGreenLawn]

the organic ferts that I use are not harmful. I tell them that these products are safer than your traditional ferts. Can you eat traditional fert? No. Can you eat my organic fert? Yes. Do I recommend you eat my organic fert? Well, I'm not doing any taste tests myself.

[JDUtah]

Mngrassguy does have a point. IMO the most harm in a chemical lawn will come from the 'icides'. Herb, fung, rodent, and insect. I personally think the market you will find with a hybrid like that is an ignorant person who wants to go organic but wont put forth the effort to learn about it. Hence you might be more prone to people who end up 'cheating' on your program. I still say sell the complete care idea to the customer and let the organics just be gravy. But if you educate your half converted customer through newsletters etc, you might help them commt more fully.

[DeepGreenLawn]

Is this the test you are talking about? I had to cut a lot of it out to fit on this site. It is a basic test, do I need one more detailed?

[DeepGreenLawn]

well, I don't even know if you can see that or tell what it is, let me try again.

[treegal1]

yes and your Ca Mg are way off!!!!!

[DeepGreenLawn]

this is one that my customer already had.

[DeepGreenLawn]

I am looking at the suggested "fixes" and they are all traditional stuff.

Also, this goes to whoever was talking about the clippings, it says,

"Clippings do not contribute to thatch under proper management and thus, do not need to be removed. If they are removed, increase the fertilizer application rate by 30%"

[treegal1]

urea is considered organic in some circles, blood and some crushed sea shells, organic for sure!

the customer had that?? you better get a SFI test to smooth things out fast.

funny theres no N needed as per that test..........

[DeepGreenLawn]

no, this is another customer. what is the difference between this and an SFI test? It recommends I appy 3lbs or 34-0-0 or 2lbs 46-0-0 per K monthly during the growing season. Is this or is this not exactly what we don't want to do with the biology?

From what I am gathering, I want to look at the numbers and then use other methods to gain control. But when it says to take such drastic measures how do you transfer that to organics?

[JDUtah]

Deep, I don't know if you know this but the application rates on synthetic fertilizers, organic too?, are set up so you apply 1lb nitrogen per 1k.

The 34-0-0 are percents. The product has 34% (by weight) of nitrogen. Hence if you apply 3lbs per 1,000, it is applying 1lb nitrogen per 1K. You can multiply the rate (3lb per 1K) by 34% (.34) and see how much nitrogen you are applying. 3 X .34 = 1.02 lb per 1,000

Or.. 2 X .46 = .92 lb per 1,000

Get the soil test first... it will tell you how much and what you need... The reason you would throw some urea down is because it is relatively fast acting. Basicaly you need to get whatever the grass needs down in a form that will be quickly utilized, then after the customer is happy you can build it to sustain itself better. Just my 2cents though, I'm only tetsing organics right now and don't know the art of meeting a customer half way yet.

[dfischer]

spray it with ammonia, beer, and soap. 33% each, maybe 6 oz /gallon. You can literally watch it green up as you spray. Seriously. but don't do it on a hot or even full sun day. End of day would be best...

[JDUtah]

dfischer, I was thinking of ammonia. It is a form of N that plants can absorb. Hence fast acting. Does ammonia work through a foliar spray because the blades can absorb it or does it need to leech to the soil?

[cpel2004]

Deep Green by chance would you happen to have any pictures of this property?

[mngrassguy]

spray it with ammonia, beer, and soap. 33% each, maybe 6 oz /gallon. You can literally watch it green up as you spray. Seriously. but don't do it on a hot or even full sun day. End of day would be best...

I didn't know any of those things are labeled for use on lawns....

[treegal1]

waste beer, get the horse whip. this sounds like a jerry baker scam brew. compost and Blood meal are real options for now.

mngrassguy, did ya get bored over in chem village? I sure pissed those guys off huh,LOLOLOL

[wallzwallz]

What about natural Nitrate of soda or Chilean Nitrate? It is fast acting, but not allowed by NOFA standards, but is organic.

[mngrassguy]

mngrassguy, did ya get bored over in chem village? I sure pissed those guys off huh,LOLOLOL

Thats what I thought you were doing there. Thought I'd visit here and stir things up a bit. At least I use organic and know what I'm talking about.:cool2::cool2::cool2:

[treegal1]

really I didn't want to get em going, tell one guy to use a organic fert and sit back and watch the fireworks, eh no hard feelings, hope there blood pressure is OK.

[DeepGreenLawn]

Deep, I don't know if you know this but the application rates on synthetic fertilizers, organic too?, are set up so you apply 1lb nitrogen per 1k.

The 34-0-0 are percents. The product has 34% (by weight) of nitrogen. Hence if you apply 3lbs per 1,000, it is applying 1lb nitrogen per 1K. You can multiply the rate (3lb per 1K) by 34% (.34) and see how much nitrogen you are applying. 3 X .34 = 1.02 lb per 1,000

Or.. 2 X .46 = .92 lb per 1,000

Get the soil test first... it will tell you how much and what you need... The reason you would throw some urea down is because it is relatively fast acting. Basicaly you need to get whatever the grass needs down in a form that will be quickly utilized, then after the customer is happy you can build it to sustain itself better. Just my 2cents though, I'm only tetsing organics right now and don't know the art of meeting a customer half way yet.


Now that is some useful information. All I knew was the higher the N number the faster it turned green. But then again, before I actually started learning what to do I would just coat the ground until I felt satisfied. I would also watch one of my buddies put bags, literally, of fert on his lawn and watch it take off.

[treegal1]

please, say it aint so..............

[Kiril]

1) drink lots of beer for 3 days
2) pee in buckets
3) apply with pump sprayer

[DeepGreenLawn]

:drinkup: Now that is the kind of solution I like to see!

[wallzwallz]

Deepgreenlawn, how long have you been treating other peoples propertys? You didn't know how much N you were putting down per 1000sq ft? I am not trying to flame you but you should slow it down a little and learn what you need to know, before treating other peoples lawns. I also agree w/ JDUtah about the chemicals like herbicide being the worst thing entering the lawn. Tell your "Hybrids" to save the money and go all synthetic or pay the price for all organic.

[DUSTYCEDAR]

wow just go till the bag is emptied ouch

[DeepGreenLawn]

I will admit, I have focused basically ALL my attention on organics and just left the other stuff to what others say to do. I know there is still a lot to learn over there, but I figured it would be a lot easier to find info on that stuff.

I don't put it down till the bag is empty, that was my old partner at the FD.

[JDUtah]

Deep,

In a couple years you will look back and be amazed at how much you have learned. You are on here asking questions and trying to figure things out. If you keep at it and reading book after book you will be great! If you are not yet, get pesticide applicator certified and get liability insurance, they are MUSTS.

You have to start somewhere and in my opinion the real world is better then school. Be careful to not put down more fertilizer, ORGANIC OR NOT, then the application rate though. (Iron as well, I know you have added some of that). You can end up with a big liability and a lawn to re-plant.

For instance a customer I just picked up today. He called and talked to my partner. Told him Scotts has been treating the lawn and it needs help. The guy said Scotts fertilized twice so far this year, it was turning brown so he called them back out. They diagnosed it as a fungus and hit him for a fungicide treatment. It got worse and so they switched saying it was a bug. That didn't help and the lawn got worse. Their last advice to him was that all his problems would be fixed with an aeration. Ummm nope, it's bad!

He called us for that and to help him restore the lawn. I pulled up to the property and HOLY CRAP!! The front lawn was almost all brown!! Checked the compaction and most of it was OK. Parts were a bit compacted so we are going to do the aeration tomorrow. In looking though I told him his problems were WAYYYYYY more then needing an aeration. The brown was basically the whole lawn except around the edges. The edges and park-strip did have signs of necrotic ring spot, but the main problem isn't that.

I told him what he really needs to do is START with a soil test. Then we can know what is wrong with the nutrient balance (I bet WAY to much N) and act accordingly.

My suspicion is that the Scotts guy ignorantly burned the lawn with fertilizer. I'm 95% sure of it! As we were walking there was a green area. It was soaked with water. He mentioned the sprinklers hit that area pretty hard. Yup, it's fertilizer burn. Anywhere the water hit the sidewalk or fence and dripped into the soil and leached the lethal dosage of fertilizer out, the lawn was ok.

He said, "I like that you guys do things competently. Starting with a soil test and then going from there. When can I get the test? How long does it take? What do I do in the meantime?"

So, soil test and aeration tomorrow. Then start a major leech program to get that deadly amount of fert out of there! I will take pictures of the lawn tomorrow and post.

My point is to be careful before you really, really, really, know what is going on, and what you are doing. NEVER apply more fertilizer then the application rate (amount and time between applications) or you might be liable for a lawn. (The guy will be using the test results to get scotts to replace his lawn if we can't get it fixed. And that's not cheap)

Could I have helped & sold him as well a couple of years ago? No. Last year? No. You will learn the stuff man. Keep going, and keep learning/stretching.

Oh, on a side note, I know the circumstances are not normal but the guy didn't see the soil test as an unnecessary expense, rather it helped sell him on our services. In fact he took one of our door hangers to refer us to his friend and we haven't done one bit of work for him yet. And I almost have him letting us mow it to. Start professionally (soil test & showing the knowledge that you are gaining), act professionally (proper adjustments because of the test & beatiful lawns), get paid professionally. payup

You will get there!

[JDUtah]

dfischer, I was thinking of ammonia. It is a form of N that plants can absorb. Hence fast acting. Does ammonia work through a foliar spray because the blades can absorb it or does it need to leech to the soil?

Whoops! I am surprised no-one jumped in to correct me... ammonia... NH3... is not absorbed by plants. It requires another reaction wich will turn it into ammonium... Nh4+... This ammonium is what is absorbed by plants... sorry.

But my understanding goes... ammonia like we find in household cleaners.. (not saying to use them) reacts with the water and forms ammonium. The solution is acidic though and any base can separate the bond thus separating its components leaving ammonia...

[DeepGreenLawn]

I am licensed and insured in all ways necessary. I have run tests on my lawn with my organic ferts to see what it would take to burn it, I can't do it. I ended up putting down Fe at the proper rate and it was as green as everyone else by the end of the week. He was happy, so was I. I am working on getting a good compost supplier and the right pricing and then selling it to the customers. Sort of a new way of treating the lawn due to the drought type of approach. We shall see.

[dishboy]

I am licensed and insured in all ways necessary. I have run tests on my lawn with my organic ferts to see what it would take to burn it, I can't do it. I ended up putting down Fe at the proper rate and it was as green as everyone else by the end of the week. He was happy, so was I. I am working on getting a good compost supplier and the right pricing and then selling it to the customers. Sort of a new way of treating the lawn due to the drought type of approach. We shall see.


You passed the Georgia Dept. of Ag licensing test without knowing how to calculate lbs of N .........amazing, scary amazing!

[humble1]

Do a spray of fish emulsion and mix it extra stinky. If it doesn't give you a good green up and the guy fires you then his lawn will smell like a wharf on the wrong side of town for a week. He did say whatever you have to do....

If you mix fish too hot the fish oils will burn the grass

[humble1]

the organic ferts that I use are not harmful. I tell them that these products are safer than your traditional ferts. Can you eat traditional fert? No. Can you eat my organic fert? Yes. Do I recommend you eat my organic fert? Well, I'm not doing any taste tests myself.

I would never use the word safe, i say safer than--- but there is no way to know if you or any animal could have an allergic reaction to any product.

[humble1]

urea is considered organic in some circles, blood and some crushed sea shells, organic for sure!

the customer had that?? you better get a SFI test to smooth things out fast.

funny theres no N needed as per that test..........

urea is synthetic, it is not OMRI accepted, unless you are peeing in the tank.

Chilian nitrate is a natural source of N and isnt accepted by OMRI standards, what circle are you refering to?:cool2:

[DeepGreenLawn]

I made, and I feel like I make, it clear that I don't know everything about ferts. I follow the rate on the bag, never more, rarely less. DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION. I doubt I will have any problems due to not knowing the correct forumulas for every bag of fert. If nothing else I still look at traditional ferts with a minimalist mindset. What is the least I can do to get a good result rather than what is the most I can do without hurting the lawn.

Doesn't this kind of go back to reading the labels? I know I should know this stuff, and now I do, but... the label tells you the rate to apply at the same time. That formula is handy when using a fert from a different manufacturer that does not have your spreaders settings. Everything else is pretty well spelled out for you. Am I incorrect?

[Kiril]

what circle are you refering to?:cool2:

With regard to urea, the chemical circle. Urea is chemically considered organic, regardless of the origin.

[Kiril]

I follow the rate on the bag, never more, rarely less. DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION.

If it depends on the situation (which it does), the last thing you should be doing is following the rate on the bag. :)

[DeepGreenLawn]

Hey tree, you had a post talking about the levels being way off. I talked to this customer the other day getting more of a background about what she had done. She isn't my avg customer who just hired whatever company looked good. She said she actually had compost put down ahead of time and adds more from time to time. Do you think that the compost she was using, whatever the brand or source was, would cause the abnormal levels? She is very ANTI-traditional so I doubt she used any synthetic ferts.

I understand all the wording humble, that is why my company is "organic-based." I believe I have said that the products were completely safe for pets and kids, didn't take allergies into account. I will work on getting a list of the things included in my products. Would this be necessary with FINISHED compost being that it is broken down? The organic fert I have now has fish oils in it for sure, man it stinks! So I probably should get a letter going and a flyer for new customers so they have a heads up.

[DeepGreenLawn]

This is for traditional customers I was referring to. But again, I am changing my programs and approach. A lot due to the droughts we are getting.

I know it depends on the situation. I know every lawn is different with different needs. I am working on all of that. Now, you can't say that I am the only one who does this. Heck, most people don't even pay attention to the app rates, they just put it down until they are happy OR just enough to make a difference so they can save money.

Even with my trad. customers I do my best to make the right choices for their lawn. I am even considering holding off on the next treatment until I decide which way to go. Trad. with low N or just do organic compost that will have the nutrients available AND great water retention for whatever rain we do get, along with the many other benefits. I think my customers, both trad and organic, can understand that reasoning.

[Kiril]

I believe I have said that the products were completely safe for pets and kids

My advice is don't make statements like this ever. :)

[DeepGreenLawn]

I know, I will change that. Appreciate the heads up. Just using the wrong wording can get you in a whole pile of unfinished compost. It's such a pain trying to be politically correct. You have to watch your every word. It would be nice if people would just go back to the old ways of translating for themselves when you don't say something exactly right. But those days are LONG gone and very few of us are able to do that anymore. Anyone else is just waiting for someone to slip up so they can get money out of them.

All these ammendments to the constitution and all... how long after it was written did the ammendments start to flow? Probably took a while I am sure. Just goes to show how stupid people are getting these days.

[DeepGreenLawn]

OK, bad example. The first 10 ammendments, the Bill of Rights, was adopted 2 years after the Constitution was written. Then the 11th was adopted 7 years after that. So, people have always been dumb, but I think a lot of that goes to politicians finding a reason to keep their job.

Regular people, back in the 20's or so, how many people got sued, oh wait that was the great depression wasn't it. Crap... I give up, you guys get what I am saying...

Or do you, I didn't spell it out for you so I don't know if you get it or not... (the whole idea behind this post) <- that was joke. I didn't say it was a good one.

[dishboy]

I made, and I feel like I make, it clear that I don't know everything about ferts. I follow the rate on the bag, never more, rarely less. DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION. I doubt I will have any problems due to not knowing the correct forumulas for every bag of fert. If nothing else I still look at traditional ferts with a minimalist mindset. What is the least I can do to get a good result rather than what is the most I can do without hurting the lawn.

Doesn't this kind of go back to reading the labels? I know I should know this stuff, and now I do, but... the label tells you the rate to apply at the same time. That formula is handy when using a fert from a different manufacturer that does not have your spreaders settings. Everything else is pretty well spelled out for you. Am I incorrect?

If you are relying on the label to establish your application rates and timing you are assuming a lot, like their program demands are identical to yours, your area, your soil type and condition, your grass cultivars, your cutting heights and your cultural practices..........Also knowing this information allows you to get satisfactory results at the lowest possible cost.

[treegal1]

we like the term "generally recognized as safe" "gras" it leaves you an out. also what ever happened to telling the people what they are really buying.

[ICT Bill]

We had a phone call the other day
"Hi ICT Organics"
other end "does your product have any peanuts in it?"
us "UUUHHHH ....HHHMMM peanuts?
other end "yeah peanuts"
us "well no, I had never thought of putting peanuts in there"
other end " we have a couple lawns that the kids are allergic to peanuts, thanks"
click

How about that one???? I guess there must be peanut compost out there it just never crossed my mind

[DeepGreenLawn]

That is exactly what I am thinking. My little sister-n-law is deathly allergic to peanuts. ErthFood has peanut shells mixed in it. Guess they didn't think that one through did they?