Humus Debate --- Reborn

[JDUtah]

This is an attempt to restore an interesting debate that was deleted about the subject of Humus. I have contacted a moderator and asked if he could send me the posts that were deleted so I can use them as a resource to restore the debate.

The debate has surfaced on other threads in the forum as well and I will attempt, after posting the original subject matters, to pull the information from those into this thread. The goal is to have this thread be an exhaustive resource (and links to resources) about the subject of Humus. I hope the heat of the moment is not diluted to the point it is not as interesting, and I also hope the thread will not address so many different subjects of humus that it becomes hard to follow. Time will tell. :)

I have not heard a response from the moderator yet and will do my best to resurrect the points from memory. I will also try to leave out points that were not discussed but that have been researched and learned after the debate started. This may be a lost cause lol. If I do receive the original transcript I will follow up and add or correct any information as needed. Anyone that followed the debate is welcome to pipe in about it as well. And anyone else that wants to join in… welcome!

--------------------

The debate started in a thread where someone was asking where to buy gypsum powder to use in an attempt to break apart heavy clay.

It was brought up that humus could be used instead of the gypsum powder, and that post suggested that humus was only available through one manufacturing company.

I thought humus was available in any compost pile. Hence, find any old compost pile and you have your source of humus.

Compost is not humus! Humus has no caloric value, and compost does. Humus contains Mycorrhizae and is made by them. (Lot’s of other arguments that I can’t remember)

Ok, it looks like we are going to have to dissect that and zero in on definitions so we may be more accurate.

Compost: a mixture of various decaying organic substances, as dead leaves or manure, used for fertilizing soil.

Compost piles rely on the beneficial microbes that your are referring to as well. They heat up because the microbes are eating the organic matter in the pile and their metabolism releases heat. Eventually the temperature of the pile cools. This happens because the microbes have eaten the organic matter and have since died off.

So according to our definition of compost, compost is the pile AS it is decaying. Humus is what is left after it is done.

No, compost is only .004% humus!

I do not believe that. Do you mind referring me to the source that you got that number?

No source was posted.

Hence I was left to find information on my own. In searching I found an interesting article on humus. http://www.ibiblio.org/steved/Luebke/Luebke-compost2.html

I still do not believe the things you are saying about compost & humus. Here is the best definition I found of humus (referring to the article)
“Humus is the end result of organic matter decomposition and recomposition by microbes. When fresh, undecomposed organic matter (green manures, animal manures, crop residues) is added to soil or placed in a compost pile, a rapid multiplication of soil microorganisms takes place. Certain microbes (bacteria, fungi, and actinomycetes) break this raw organic matter down into smaller particles (gums, waxes, lignins) resistant to further decay and simple organic compounds (sugars, amino acids) that are water soluble. Following the breakdown phase, a second group of microbes bind these materials together, especially lignins and microbial biomass, into more stable humic substances (fulvic acid, humic acid, humins) in the buildup phase.
The physical, chemical, and biological transfomation of raw organic matter into a complex humic substance is known as humification. Friable humus (also known as effective humus or nutritive humus), which supplies slow-release nutrients over a period of weeks or months, is a short-chain humic compound. Stable humus (also known as permanent humus), which has a half-life of years and may be viewed as the soil humus bank, is a long-chain humic compound.”

I thought humus was the most broken down form of organic matter. I did not realize that it had to be re-built. Interesting. However this article even states that their requirements for their finished compost is 50-80% humus, not the .004% claimed! (the ‘advertised’ product claims 94%? humus)
Another argument made by the humus advocate was that it would take over 100 years for a property to create enough humus to cover 1” of the surface of the soil.

The reply was… Let me continually harvest all the organic matter from the same plot of land, compost it and re-spread it taking into account plants using the humus for food, leeching, erosion, and other factors of degradation and it see if it wouldn’t take me 100 years to create enough humus to cover the same 1”.

By this time I began to feel bad that the post had been hijacked and referred back to the original question… Where can I get Gypsum powder to help with my clay problem?

I replied, “the only distributor I found was in Australia. Hmm... But if it is to help break up the soil humus might help...
The article also explains a little more clearly (at least to me anyway) how humus helps clay soils.

----

When conditions are optimal, microbes attach these long-chain humic compounds to the clay fraction, resulting in clay-humus crumb. These clay-humus crumbs are full of "nooks and crannies" which provide shelter for soil microorganisms. The enormous surface area and negative charge associated with clay-humus provides exchange sites for cations, and building soil humus is one of the few ways farmers can actually increase the cation exchange capacity (CEC) of soils. Clay-humus crumbs are highly desirable in building soil tilth and maintaining good soil structure and water holding capacity.

----

So getting more humus in your soil will help to clump the clay and let it have more room for water retention, etc.

It seems there are different ways you can do this...

-Mix compost into the soil (or topdress if it is a lawn) and wait for nature to finish turning the OM into humus. (I still think the compost has more than .0004% humus though)

-Speed up the process by applying a Compost tea full of microorganisms that will help the process along. You can hit and miss by random Compost Teas. Or you can determine a formula that has select microbes that are essential to this process. The people in the article i linked to apply a Compost Tea (they call it inoculent) that consists of 50 microbes that are selected for humufication. Interesting again. I want the list of those little guys!

-Or you can buy the humus product directly from our friends ____ ____ and (till?) the humus in.

Interesting to note however that the article I reference suggests that insoluble humus is most desirable as it will not leach with water like the soluble humus will.


And that is where I would pick up the debate. Our new friend with ties to a humus manufacturing company needs to jump in and explain why their form (soluble humus) is better then the form the article says is best (insoluble humus)… I will drop my jaw in amazement if an article is actually referenced and in context!

[easygrass]

thought I would put this here.

I just wanted to post this info for everyone hope you enjoy this.


HUMUS - Humus is defined as a brown to black complex variable of carbon containing compounds not recognized under a light microscope as possessing cellular organization in the form of plant and animal bodies. Humus is separated from the non-humic substances such as carbohydrates (a major fraction of soil carbon),fats, waxes, alkanes, peptides, amino acids, proteins, lipids, and organic acids by the fact that distinct chemical formulae can be written for these non-humic substances. Most small molecules of non-humic substances are rapidly degraded by microorganisms within the soil. In contrast soil humus is slow to decompose (Degrade) under natural soil conditions. When in combination with soil minerals soil humus can persist in the soil for several hundred years. Humus is the major soil organic matter component, making up 65% to 75% of the total. Humus assumes an important role as a fertility component of all soils, far in excess of the percentage contribution it makes to the total soil mass.


http://humusandcarbon.blogspot.com/

[ICT Bill]

Humus assumes an important role as a fertility component of all soils, far in excess of the percentage contribution it makes to the total soil mass.

I am so pleased that you brought this up. I agree with this point, the story is much more complex than this

Is it active or not?
How was it deposited?

Humus is what we want in our landscape, lawn and field

Humus is??? organic matter that is balanced, maybe

It is the fuel that makes the engine run, I think

Humus is the end result of good inputs, or bad inputs over time

Humus happens.......... eventually

[treegal1]

OK this time I want you all to get me strait on this HUMUS thing........

the more stable humus does not really add nutrients to the soil, only adds to the soil structure??? it binds???? with clay and silicone,,,,,,,eh...what??? soil microbes have a hard time "eating" stable humus??? is this like the long road to ADE

I thought I had a handle on the humus thing, is worm humus stable or is it open to further decomposition???

wish kiril would hit us with some paper, maybe some well viewed works.

also would like a def of clay, just to keep us sand types on track

[DeepGreenLawn]

-Clay-

Soil which is composed of very fine particles, usually silicates of aluminum and/or iron and magnesium. Clay soil impedes the flow of water, meaning it absorbs water slowly and then retains it for a long time. Wet clay soil is heavy and sticky, and tends to swell from the added moisture. When dry, clay soil shrinks and settles. The top layer can bake into a hard, concrete-like crust which cracks. Some plants have difficulty growing in clay soil because their seedlings or roots are unable to penetrate through hard, dry soil, or can be waterlogged in wet soil. Adding organic material to clay soil is an effective method of improving growing conditions.

[Smallaxe]

The balance of soils have 3 or 4 components. Sand, clay, silt, and/or OM. The perfect soil is 45%-55% sand, 35-45% clay, with the remaining 10% hopefully being silt and OM.
The humus is the silt/OM part.

I have always heard that the sun will degrade humus. Anyone know for fact if this is true or not?

TG1 brings up an interesting correlation with ADE. To me I image both, humus and char to both be catalysts, rather than consumable. Increasing the CEC of the soil, by providing the site.

[jeffinsgf]

I was under the impression that "humus" referred to the product of the naturally occurring decay process that happens in a forest compared to the accelerated decay process that happens in a man-made compost pile. Our state conservation department makes this distinction and suggests that woodland humus not be disturbed or harvested for use in gardens.

Humus = slow
Compost = fast

[DUSTYCEDAR]

GREAT THREAD would humic acid help break up the clay?

[Kiril]

wish kiril would hit us with some paper

Section 2. The soil solid phase (http://lawr.ucdavis.edu/classes/ssc102/Section2.pdf)

Section 7. Adsorption on soil colloids (http://lawr.ucdavis.edu/classes/ssc102/Section7.pdf)

[Kiril]

Humic substances – compounds of still unknown structure: applications in agriculture, industry, environment, and biomedicine (http://www.zsf.jcu.cz/vyzkum/jab/3_1/pena.pdf)

Analytical and Spectroscopic Characteristics of Refuse Compost-Derived Humic Substances (http://www.cyut.edu.tw/~ijase/2003/ijase_1(1)_6_62-71.pdf)

Comprehensive Study of Humic Substances-Ionic Surfactant Interaction in Aqueous Solution (http://dlwww.dl.saga-u.ac.jp/contents/diss/GI00001421/GI00001421.pdf)

Enhanced Hydrocarbon Bioeremediation Through The Addition Of Humic Substances Part Ii: Improved Land Treatment And Staticpile Composting (http://www.remtech2006.com/remtech/2003/pdf/LiemFacey.pdf)

Fluorescence and energy transfer processes of humic substances and related model compounds in terbium complexes (http://opus.kobv.de/ubp/volltexte/2007/1225/pdf/Kumke2005_18.pdf)


For you brew masters:

Effect Of Humic Substances And Particles On Bubble Coalescence And Foam Stability In Relation To Dissolved Air Flotation Processes (http://www.ig.pwr.wroc.pl/minproc/journal/pdf/2004/37-52.pdf)

[Tim Wilson]

Here is an excellent discussion on the two schools of thought concerning humus. I have copied the abstract and attached the full pdf. Can you get humus from your worm 'pits/bins'? Yes. Is humus something which is ancient and mined? Yes. Can the composting process create more than .004% humus? Yes. Are there those in the industry who wish you to think humus only comes from a hundred/thousand year process? Yes


"Evaluation of Conceptual Models of
Natural Organic Matter (Humus) From a
Consideration of the Chemical and
Biochemical Processes of Humification

By Robert L. Wershaw

Abstract

Natural organic matter (NOM) has been studied for
more than 200 years because of its importance in enhancing
soil fertility, soil structure, and water-holding capacity and
as a carbon sink in the global carbon cycle. Two different
types of models have been proposed for NOM: (1) the humic
polymer models and (2) the molecular aggregate models. In
the humic polymer models, NOM molecules are depicted as
large (humic) polymers that have unique chemical structures
that are different from those of the precursor plant degradation
products. In the molecular aggregate models, NOM is depicted
as being composed of molecular aggregates (supramolecular
aggregates) of plant degradation products held together by
non-covalent bonds. The preponderance of evidence favors
the supramolecular aggregate models. These models were
developed by studying the properties of NOM extracted from
soils and natural waters, and as such, they provide only a very
generalized picture of the structure of NOM aggregates in
soils and natural waters prior to extraction. A compartmental
model, in which the structure of the NOM in each of the
compartments is treated separately, should provide a more
accurate representation of NOM in soil and sediment systems.
The proposed NOM compartments are: (1) partially degraded
plant tissue, (2) biomass from microorganisms, (3) organic
coatings on mineral grains, (4) pyrolytic carbon, (5) organic
precipitates, and (6) dissolved organic matter (DOM) in
interstitial water. Within each of these compartments there
are NOM supramolecular aggregates that will be dissolved by
the solvent systems that are used by researchers for extraction
of NOM from soils and sediments. In natural water systems
DOM may be considered as existing in two subcompartments:
(1) truly dissolved DOM and (2) colloidal DOM.

Introduction

Soils and sediments are composed of complex mixtures
of inorganic and organic components. The organic components
of soils (soil organic matter) constitute the largest pool of
carbon on the surface of the Earth (González-Pérez and others,
2004). This carbon pool is particularly important because soil
properties such as buffering capacity, metal-binding capacity,
stability of aggregates of soil particles, water-holding capacity,
and sorption of hydrophobic organic compounds are dependent,
to a large extent, on the amount of organic matter in a
soil. All of these properties, with the exception of the last one,
are important in controlling soil fertility.
The maintenance of soil fertility is of paramount importance
for the survival of human life on our planet. In the rich,
industrialized countries of the world soil fertility is maintained
by application of chemical fertilizers that are produced using
large amounts of fossil fuels. The costs of chemicals fertilizers
are expected to increase because of increases in costs of fossil
fuels. The ready availability of the chemical fertilizers has
encouraged farmers to employ intensive agricultural practices,
such as growing a single crop year after year (monoculture),
irrigation, and heavy use of pesticides. These practices oftentimes
result in severe erosion and deterioration of soil texture
and aggregation (Pimentel and others, 1995; Tilman, 1999).
Mäder and others (2002) showed that organic farming
systems are much more sustainable than conventional intensive
agriculture. In addition, they found that organic farming
reduced energy imput by 34 to 53 percent and pesticide imput
by 97 percent. In organic farming practice, nutrients are supplied
by the application of manure, green manure, and compost,
and by growing legumes. Organic farming results in a
marked increase in concentration of organic matter in an agricultural
soil. The development of a more refined conceptual
model of this organic matter will be the topic of this report.
Such a model is necessary in order to be able to optimize
sustainable agricultural practices and to better understand the
chemical and biochemical reactions that take place in natural
water systems.
The pool of NOM in soils is not only an important factor
in soil fertility, it also serves as a carbon sink. Increasing this
pool not only improves soil fertility, it also reduces the amount
of anthropogenic carbon dioxide that is added to the atmosphere.
Thus, the active sequestration of carbon in soil can be
an important tool in reducing climate change brought by the
burning of fossil fuels and plant biomass.
Naturally occurring organic compounds in soils have
been studied for more than 200 years because agricultural
scientists early recognized the importance of natural organics
in enhancing soil fertility, soil structure, and water-holding
capacity (Kononova, 1966). The most general term for the
natural organic compounds in soils, sediments, and natural
waters is natural organic matter (NOM); however, a number of
other terms have been applied to different NOM fractions.
2 Conceptual Models of Natural Organic Matter, Processes of Humification
The most commonly used of these are: humus, humic substances,
humic acid, fulvic acid, and humin. The dissolved
fraction of the NOM in natural waters is commonly called
dissolved organic matter (DOM) or dissolved organic carbon
(DOC). Historically, the term humus has been applied to the
dark-colored, “rotted” organic matter in soils, and the terms
humic acid, fulvic acid, and humin have been used to designate
different fractions of humus (Kononova, 1966).
Early workers (see Kononova, 1966, p. 13-45) understood
that soil humus arises mainly from the degradation of the dead
plant tissue with a lesser contribution from decaying animal
remains. Many of these early workers assumed that humus was
composed of the end products of synthetic reactions that alter
the structures of plant degradation products. Other workers,
however, maintained that humus is a complex mixture of plant
degradation products. This controversy has persisted. Stevenson
(1994) has provided a detailed exposition of the synthetic
reaction postulate. He defined soil humic substances as “a
series of relatively high-molecular weight, yellow to black
colored substances formed by secondary synthesis reactions,”
and humus as the “total of the organic compounds in soil
exclusive of undecayed plant and animal tissues, their ‘partial
decomposition’ products, and the soil biomass.” In contrast, a
number of workers recently have proposed that humic substances
consist mainly of the partial degradation products
of plant polymers (Baldock and others, 1992; Hatcher and
Spiker, 1988; Piccolo, 2001; Wershaw, 1986; Wershaw, 1994).
These workers generally do not explicitly state, however, as
Stevenson (1994) does, what NOM compounds are excluded
from the category of humic substances; therefore, their definition
of humic substances is necessarily incomplete. Most
workers would agree that soil NOM consists of humified
components (humus or humic substances) and the nonhumified
components (unaltered plant components). Those workers
who do not accept Stevenson’s definitions must, therefore,
distinguish between those NOM components that have been
altered enough to be called humic substances and those that
have not. It is probably useful to exclude completely undecomposed
plant and animal tissue and living microorganisms
from the definition of humus; however, there is no practical
way to exclude “partial decomposition” products from humus
isolates, and indeed, it is likely that soil humus consists mainly
of such products (Wershaw, 1994; Knicker and others, 1997).
This controversy has led to the development of two
different types of models for NOM: (1) the humic polymer
model and (2) the molecular aggregate model. The belief that
the component molecules of NOM are produced by secondary
synthesis reactions from degradation products has led to models
in which the NOM molecules are depicted as polymeric
species that have distinctive chemical structures that are different
from those of starting materials. These models, for want of
a better designation, will be called humic polymer models in
the following discussion. The proposal that NOM is composed
of the partial degradation products of plant polymers
has resulted in the development of models in which NOM is
composed of molecular aggregates of the degradation products
held together by non-covalent bonds (Wershaw, 1994; Piccolo,
2001). Following the usage of Piccolo (2001), these models
are designated as supramolecular aggregate models.
In order to resolve this controversy Wershaw (2000) has
proposed a paradigm shift in the study of NOM. He stated
“* * *that a more fruitful approach to the study of NOM in
soils and natural waters than that based on the humic substance
paradigm is to study the chemical reactions that the
chemical components of plant tissue undergo during and after
senescence. That is to say, to concern oneself with the humification
process rather than with ill-defined intermediates in
the continuum from well-characterized plant components to
carbon dioxide.” Humification may be considered as a threestep
process of (1) degradation of components of plant tissue
followed by (2) reassembly of the degradation products into
NOM, and (3) the degradation of the NOM formed in step 2.
The development, testing, and refinement of conceptual models
are essential elements of scientific inquiry.
A good model leads scientists to ask the right questions,
that is to say, to design experiments that provide increased
insight into the question at hand. At the present time, as
pointed out above, there are two very different models for
natural organic matter (NOM): (1) the humic polymer model
and (2) the molecular aggregate model. Acceptance of one or
the other of these models, either explicitly or implicitly, underlies
the experimental design of most research in the field."

Have fun!

[Kiril]

Are there those in the industry who wish you to think humus only comes from a hundred/thousand year process? Yes

:laugh::laugh:

[Tim Wilson]

Here is a link to a humic acid (humus) supplier in the north. It may not be appropriate to post it so by all means delete it if that is the case. I post it because the site has some interesting results posted from analyses done. I have no connection to them whatsoever.

http://www.blackearth.com

[Stewards of the Land]

http://www.blackearth.com

This is a Humate company! Humates are not Humus! Humates are the salts, ores, or clays of Humus. Humates do contain Humic and Fulvic acids however Humate is hydrophobic as it is contains a waxy film and its "Solubility in H2O, %by Wt.: Less than 1%" as stated on all the MSDS sheets I have for Humate and Humate products. The standard in the industry is to use a caustic base extraction method of sodium or potassium hydroxide to dissolve the Humate into a liquid or liquid Humic acid which then contains that chemical in the final solution. Big difference then what we are discussing and many product companies are misrepresenting the truth about this...

As stated by the documentation, links, and discussions above Humus is a biochemical of complex carbon that is the basic end result of the Humification process by which one of the components is decaying plant and animal matter known as compost. Humic acid, Ulmic Acid, and Fulvic acid are components of Humus just like Glomalin which is created from Mycorrhizae.

In order to achieve Humus within soil one needs to Prime the Pedogenisis!

Science is at the Kitty Hawk stage of understanding all of the complexities, properties, and benefits of Humus however Dr. Melendrez work is on the cutting edge..

I havent had a chance to fully review every post above and will add more when I have time...

Thanks,

[DeepGreenLawn]

Geeze, he gets so worked up about this stuff. I wander what his BP is.

[ICT Bill]

DeepGreen,
For certain applications Humate or Humic acid is a great input, it just is not the end all that some like to make it out to be.
Balanced systems are just that balanced, sometimes systems start "listing to port" if you will, the benefits from a humate product in those instances has a nice result.

Too much of something is just that "too much" so with humate or humic acid my belief is "less is more"

In the north we use humate in the late fall to bind nitrogen which leads to snow mold issues, this gives you some indication.

I guess I got a little off topic, oh well

[treegal1]

stewards, you sound like this guy michael we met once.

[jeffinsgf]

...Science is at the Kitty Hawk stage of understanding all of the complexities, properties, and benefits of Humus however Dr. Melendrez work is on the cutting edge.....
Thanks,

What a load. Some of you folks and those that wrote the quoted gobbledygook have entirely too much time on your hands.

The Kitty Hawk stage of understanding??? I just spent a day touring Monticello. Thomas Jefferson knew, understood and practiced organic growing methods at the turn of the 19th century, and he studied it in at least 8 languages. There is nothing new about using organic matter to improve soil. You can throw fifty dollar words and hundred thousand dollar degrees at it all you want, it won't change its effectiveness or applied practice.

Add organic matter > Improve soil.

[treegal1]

That's a good question, what did the Chinese people do in the Han Dynasty, whats that like 200 BC or something???

did those wonderful people have NPK in plastic bags???

[Organic a go go]

Yikes!! That Ozark air........

No one is doubting that adding organic matter improves soil however its quite a leap to say that we know all there is to know about soils. How many folks were making a living hawkin' ACT 25 years ago?? I didn't run into many.

[treegal1]

well.... that old Chinese thing again, not a real ACT..... but the old ways described a multi chambered vessel that stood on end, several chambers where loaded with [manure/compost; my speculation only]and had water leached/run through it several times( could be hundreds) as the water fell down it splashed(aeration?) until it was used?

i don't have the original story as it was told(verbally) but that's the high points

[k911lowe]

aint humus something you eat with gravy?

[treegal1]

and hawg jawls or chitlins??

[jeffinsgf]

Yikes!! That Ozark air........

No one is doubting that adding organic matter improves soil however its quite a leap to say that we know all there is to know about soils. How many folks were making a living hawkin' ACT 25 years ago?? I didn't run into many.

There is certainly more to learn, but to say that we are in the infancy of understanding soil is to show no respect for several thousand years worth of gardeners and landscapers who have gone before us.

"...making a living hawkin'..." in my opinion is part of the problem. While I understand that not everyone is willing to take care of their own space, and you guys have a right to make a living, ramping up the techno-speak to sell your systems is just as annoying in landscaping as it is in computers or anything else. As an outsider looking in, let me point out an example as delicately as I can. DeepGreenLawn is selling himself as an organic expert, yet he comes here daily asking what he should do next --- and rarely taking the advice he is given. Others try to prove that they know so much more than we plebians will ever be able to comprehend that they must be right.

I have a hard time believing that some of you guys are as committed to the environment as you are to the latest buzzword business opportunity.

[treegal1]

get them jeff!!!! take a shot at the product guys next, and get the money grubers once more just for spite!!:eek:

maybe your the one that stole my soap box???

[k911lowe]

There is certainly more to learn, but to say that we are in the infancy of understanding soil is to show no respect for several thousand years worth of gardeners and landscapers who have gone before us.

"...making a living hawkin'..." in my opinion is part of the problem. While I understand that not everyone is willing to take care of their own space, and you guys have a right to make a living, ramping up the techno-speak to sell your systems is just as annoying in landscaping as it is in computers or anything else. As an outsider looking in, let me point out an example as delicately as I can. DeepGreenLawn is selling himself as an organic expert, yet he comes here daily asking what he should do next --- and rarely taking the advice he is given. Others try to prove that they know so much more than we plebians will ever be able to comprehend that they must be right.

I have a hard time believing that some of you guys are as committed to the environment as you are to the latest buzzword business opportunity.

if your in it just being a lawn person for any length of time makes us committed to the environment.you couldn't do the work if you weren't.only if you did the work would you comprehend.where do you think all this stuff started.by some fat ass(donkey)sitting behind a desk with a sheepskin in a frame on the wall behind them.if it wasn't for us there would be no environmental movement.we are not farmers.we are landscapers.get it straight who messed up the environment in the first place.

[treegal1]

I can only imagine us all in the same room..........

[DUSTYCEDAR]

OH I WOULD PAY TO SEE THAT :usflag: i learn something new each week and if i keep doing that some day ill know something.:rolleyes:

[Organic a go go]

There is certainly more to learn, but to say that we are in the infancy of understanding soil is to show no respect for several thousand years worth of gardeners and landscapers who have gone before us.

I think the fact that academics continue to build on the work of thousands of years of growers before them is showing a great deal of respect. The fact of the matter is that when you try to bring these concepts into the market and compete with the TG's and chem guys it just isn't enough to say "they were slingin' horse poop in China a millennium ago here's my bill." People want to know WHY they should part with their money. Which segues nicely into my next point....

"...making a living hawkin'..." in my opinion is part of the problem.......
.

I have a hard time believing that some of you guys are as committed to the environment as you are to the latest buzzword business opportunity.


Slow your roll here my friend....

The concept of soil fertility was introduced to me 35 years ago on my grand dad'd tractor as we loaded up the manure spreader and hauled it over his fields in Dade Co. Missouri. Yeah, just up the road from you by Stockton Lake. That said I don't apologize to ANYONE for learning all I can and hopefully turning that knowledge into a better service for my customers.
And I don't apologize for making a living hawking organics either. Maybe you'd be more comfortable with the alternative??

You should put your butt shotgun in an organic lawn service's truck for a day or two and decide for yourself what's commitment and what's "the latest buzzword". Or better yet start your own service without constantly updating your knowledge base and see how well you compete against people like me and Deep Green. And not that DeepGreen needs me to defend him but I will PROMISE you that this industry is full to the gills with chem guys who don't know diddly-squat about their product or the plants they apply them to so if you're going to point fingers lets point them everywhere.

[JDUtah]

i learn something new each week and if i keep doing that some day ill know something.

:clapping::dancing::walking::weightlifter::cool2::clapping:

I think that is all that matters! That was low to hit deep like that. Like someone said I probably don't need to defend him but I can't not. He is learning, and unfortunately it is in a public setting where you can see his growth.

If he keeps doing what he is doing (learning) I bet he will pass you in knowledge and application of that knowledge (professionalism). Maybe he does need to learn to act on advice a little more quickly too, but he is learning that lesson as well. Be grateful he is here or you would have no discussion to follow, or things to learn yourself along the way.

We are all ignorant buddy. And what ignorance does this thread address? LCO's? Nope... So lets get back to Humus! (I need to do more reading and have some questions but will not post them just yet.)

[easygrass]

Here you go JDUtah little more reading...

http://www.geo.uni-bayreuth.de/bodenkunde/terra_preta/


http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/terra_preta/TerraPretahome.htm

[treegal1]

an acorn makes the oak??? if ya got "the way" help the dude, if he was dumb(not at all!!) he would not ask so many questions!!! he in still learning, at least he made it past the bag label, sort of LOL, and is here asking some questions to help himself and the earth/future inhabitants.

fun in jest is ok, but why make a fuss, help him out instead. isn't that the basics of organics, nurture and not poison

where were we...... ah humus, thanks so much kiril, we as forever students are thankful that you made that POST. my google finger is hurting.LOL

back at the ADE again..........

[treegal1]

in reading some of the mass of info. I got a question? whats river muck considered, sediment= clay??? i searched some mineral searches and did not get the help i wanted, marine sites just call it sediment?

[Kiril]

ramping up the techno-speak to sell your systems is just as annoying in landscaping as it is in computers or anything else.

What bothers me the most is when the ramping isn't accurate. :hammerhead:

Now with respect to knowledge, if your not forever seeking to increase it, what is the point in living? If the "techno" speech scares you, then ask for it to be presented in a different manner.

Fact of the matter is, organics is not new, and although I don't agree with much of the profiteering that is taking place under the name "organics", the movement is a sound one, and built on the knowledge and experience of millennia.

If you take anything away from this forum, the only lesson you need to learn to be successful in organics is.....

Compost does a soil good.

[Kiril]

we are not farmers.we are landscapers.

IMHO landscapers are farmers, just on a much smaller scale.

[jeffinsgf]

Okay, so perhaps my posts were a bit over the top yesterday, but some facts remain.

I believe DGL has the best of intentions, both for his company and for his customers. Intentions don't get the job done, however. We've all been telling him to get his customers' lawns' soil tested for months and months now. It's either free or cheap at the county seat of virtually every county in the United States. We've been telling him for months that the foundation of an organic lawn program was compost topdressing. He seems short of capital to buy or build a spreader -- that's fine -- that means that you use a wheel barrow, a pitch fork, a rake, and your back. Like our friend Larry says --- Get 'er done!

Now, back to humus. Is there research that proves or disproves a difference between naturally occurring (woodland) humus and compost? I was under the impression that there was little or no difference, except that humus takes a long time to develop because it does not ever generate heat, since there is no "pile". Compost is relatively the same chemical composition, but fast-tracked by the pile's heat and the composter's efforts (turning, blending, layering). If that is too simplistic in a meaningful way, I would like to know.

IMHO landscapers are farmers, just on a much smaller scale.

Amen, brother. Anyone with any interest in this subject who happens to be in western Virginia needs to be sure and visit Monticello. Thomas Jefferson was a flower gardener, a vegetable gardener, a production gardener, and a research gardener. His grounds, gardens, orchards, forests and fields are inspiring. The dedication of the gardeners who take care of it today is further inspiration. I left with a sack full of heirloom seeds and a box full of plants.

[DeepGreenLawn]

Wow, didn't know I was so popular. I forgive you Jeff.

The fact of the matter is that I knew that compost was important. I didn't realize that you HAD to have it down first thing to make a difference. I was under the impression that you could use what was there and bring the compost in when you had a chance. I now know better. In this I have also been talking to A LOT of fertilizer manufacturers who were making it a point that all you needed was there fertilizer, ICT is not one of these, so I am sure that all that joined together a long with my old chemical thought process of put the fertilizer down and work your way to making a better soil came to the process of how I was doing things.

Hopefully because of my many posts others will be able to learn this lesson as well and not have to look so dumb while they are figuring it out. I am more than willing to ask questions even if it makes me look dumb because I am sure there are many others with the same question not willing to ask. A price I am willing to pay.

I have never said I was an expert at organics and I continuously remind my customers that I am still learning as the concept of organics, in the use of a lawn care company, are still very new here in our area. That I have learned and am learning the workings from people out of state as there are only 3 other companies I have found in Georgia that truly offer organic options, unlike TG's organic program. They are all very understanding and appreciative that I am even trying to go in that direction.

No, I am not doing it because it is the latest "phase." I have many reasons for using organics, to be completely honest what got me looking at organics was the health of my newborn child. Puts things in perspective when you know your own baby girl is going to be running around on the yard you just got done putting chems on. Let alone coming home and having her be around the clothes I had worn that day.

Compost, I understand the idea and I now know its importance as being the foundation of the whole organic system. I am planning on starting to put it down starting Thurs. Why not today or yesterday you ask? Because I am, and have been since I started my business basically from day one, SLAMMED with work. I constantly get home around 8-9 o'clock each night. Work till dark and then try and sort out all the paperwork. I am in the process of training a new person to do my billing and route schedules, and am turning down companies who wants me to take over their chem applications for their business. Throw in the 2-3 estimates, that is now, was about 5-7, per day that have to be put out and you just don't have much time to sit down and figure out the aspects of extra services such as Composting or making my own CT. You know the major factors of the business that include planning and research of my own on things such as supplies and machinery.

But I don't know why I am having to explain this to you, I have a successful business I am trying to run and trying to learn how to do the organics correctly in the process. Say what you want I could care less.

Sorry had to respond, yall can go back to your talking now

[treegal1]

anybody have a "micro force balance" they might loan me???

back to reading, so much info, love it...........

[Kiril]

in reading some of the mass of info. I got a question? whats river muck considered, sediment= clay??? i searched some mineral searches and did not get the help i wanted, marine sites just call it sediment?

Not really sure what your asking here. Perhaps this will help?

FACTORS OF SOIL FORMATION. A System of Quantitative Pedology (http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010159.Jenny.pdf)

[Smallaxe]

I was under the impression that "humus" referred to the product of the naturally occurring decay process that happens in a forest compared to the accelerated decay process that happens in a man-made compost pile. Our state conservation department makes this distinction and suggests that woodland humus not be disturbed or harvested for use in gardens.

Humus = slow
Compost = fast

The "State" doesn't know anymore about humus than anyone else is capable of understanding. The State only has political agendas. The humus in the forest is different than the humus in the composted leaves?

Breaking down any given material to its smallest component is probably going to reveal the molecular structure of that component. What is the State's analysis of the molecular structure of the forest humus and how does it compare/differ from the molecular structure of the compostted humus?
They will not answer that because they are not talking science, niether do they have a clue.

I am willing to go out on a limb and say that microbes broke down the leafy material to its smallest components whether in a pile, in the dirt, or out the backend of a whitetail deer. Unless they have discovered a 'new' microbe that changes humates molecularily in the forest - but no where else - I would say "Don't insult my intelligence, state bureaucrat".

Disclaimer: [My comments are directed to the State alone. I have nothing against Jeff here.]

[jeffinsgf]

Smallaxe,

I have a great deal of respect for the Missouri Department of Conservation. They offer some wonderful educational and stewardship programs. I don't know about the conservation department in your state, but ours is full of knowledgeable and dedicated people.

The MDC is not saying that forest humus is different from compost, in fact their suggestion to use compost states that there is no difference. The distinction they make is that the natural soil building process in the forest is slow and generates very little SOM each year. If people strip the topsoil out of their woodlands, it will take decades to replace it, while it would only take a few months to create the same amount of compost.

I get the impression that some of the research quoted in this thread suggests a difference in naturally occurring humus and compost. I would like to know (in English) what that difference is and whether it is relevant in any real world way. My point of view, and that of the MDC, is that there is no real world relevant difference.

[Tim Wilson]

Smallaxe,

I have a great deal of respect for the Missouri Department of Conservation. They offer some wonderful educational and stewardship programs. I don't know about the conservation department in your state, but ours is full of knowledgeable and dedicated people.

The MDC is not saying that forest humus is different from compost, in fact their suggestion to use compost states that there is no difference. The distinction they make is that the natural soil building process in the forest is slow and generates very little SOM each year. If people strip the topsoil out of their woodlands, it will take decades to replace it, while it would only take a few months to create the same amount of compost.

I get the impression that some of the research quoted in this thread suggests a difference in naturally occurring humus and compost. I would like to know (in English) what that difference is and whether it is relevant in any real world way. My point of view, and that of the MDC, is that there is no real world relevant difference.

I can take an uneducated stab at this. First there is an argument amongst acedemics about what constitutes humus. There still is no absolute definitive. It is generally accepted that humus consists of organic matter from plant and animal sources which cannot degrade further from its present form. The two schools of thought center around 1/ a humus structure which has no recognizable animal or plant cell structure when microscopically examined. The degraded substances (organic matter) have formed covalent bonds (they share electrons [molecular]) or a polymer and are an entirely new substance which will degrade no further OR
2/ a humus structure consists of substances (organic matter) from animal and plant sources some of which remain partially undegraded and the cell structure is recognizable as to species of origin when microscopically examined. It is glued aggregately by non-covalent bonds (do not necessarily share electrons [non-molecular]) and there are some small changes which can occurr through degredation and combining, although very minimal.

Basically, though, humus is organic matter that is so composted or degraded that it cannot compost or degrade further. Most compost that we see has some chunks of wood or other plant material in it. These, obviously are going to degrade further so don't pass muster as humus but compost that has been degrading for a really really long time so that it is just crumbley or gooey stuff is going to containt or be humus. Likewise with worm compost (vermicompost), if food is left for the worms to digest over a few times (a fairly long time) one will observe a rich gooey humus like substance, which for practical discussion (purposes) does not degrade further and is humus.

Because there is no absolute definitive for humus, one would be hard pressed to illustrate a difference between that produced on the forest floor and in the barnyard, except by cellular make up of course but then one could similarly differentiate between humus from two forests.

At least thats how I presently see it.

Tim

[jeffinsgf]

Thank you, Tim. So academic arguments aside, humus is fully composted compost. It can compost no more.

Which brings up a question. Which is more beneficial to a soil structure, humus or compost that hasn't completely broken down? When I buy compost to topdress my yard, I always have the dump truck put it in the same spot. Parts and edges of the pile are 3 years old, and don't look the same as a fresh delivery. Is the old, fully composted "humus" pile more valuable to my soil than the fresh stuff, or is the fresh stuff food for the worms and microscopic critters in my soil? Is the humus more valuable to the plants but the compost is more valuable to the soil?

[Stewards of the Land]

I believe Tim has properly said it!

Though I would like to add a few things..

First to say that technology is bad or knowledge doesnt or shouldnt evolve is a very short sided approach and statement! To bash the "Kitty Hawk" comments states to me that your level of understanding on Humus is negligible at best. I mean no disrespect but in the case of Humus and the understanding of where it comes from is still misinterpreted and misrepresented within the Green Industry! We are at the Kitty Hawk stage of understanding and if it werent for those pH.D's studying these things then we would have some of things we depend on today. Humus has many more benefits then we even have yet to understand and it is an exciting thought to know people like Dr. Melendrez is working to unlock those secrets! I support all of those who are doing the hard work so we can learn and understand. And there isnt a darn thing wrong with someone creating a value added product to sell as economy is what makes the world go round and there isnt a darn thing any of us can do about it!

Once again Compost is not Humus! Humates are not Humus! Peat Moss is not Humus! Only Humus is Humus of which it is a biochemical of complex carbon compounds. Does compost contribute to Humus? Yes! However it takes an extremely long time for it to breakdown within the soil. Lets be clear here that compost is NOT the sole component to Humus building! There are many factors that are involved including the proper levels of proper microbial colonization within the soil as well as the proper nutrients from the proper sources(not chemical fertilizers) that play an important and vital role to create the biochemical! Compost as stated by the US Compost Council is a product by which you are not able to decipher what it was made from through sight and smell. As you all obviously understand most commercial entities do not know how to produce a quality compost! Compost in my opinion for all intense and purposes is an organic fertilizer it does not however feed nor establish the grouping of microbes that feed vegetation known as the Root-Tip-Colonizing microbes such as the Mycorrhizae fungi that associate with 95% of the vegetation worldwide.

The focus of what anyone trying to build fertility within the soil is not how much organic matter to add, rather should be how to jumpstart soil creation and once thats achieved how do I maintain the Humus building??

Humus is far more important to the soil and vegetation then compost and so I would suggest using the older pile of compost..

Regards,

[DeepGreenLawn]

The focus of what anyone trying to build fertility within the soil is not how much organic matter to add, rather should be how to jumpstart soil creation and once thats achieved how do I maintain the Humus building??



So, what does it take to "jumpstart soil creation" other than putting down compost, CT, and fixing what is needed from soil tests? Or is that what you mean?

[treegal1]

so doc, tell us how to do it ?????? lay down some smarts on us, my spine tingles with anticipation>txt

[JDUtah]

Once again Compost is not Humus! Humates are not Humus! Peat Moss is not Humus! Only Humus is Humus of which it is a biochemical of complex carbon compounds. Does compost contribute to Humus? Yes! However it takes an extremely long time for it to breakdown within the soil. Lets be clear here that compost is NOT the sole component to Humus building! There are many factors that are involved including the proper levels of proper microbial colonization within the soil as well as the proper nutrients from the proper sources(not chemical fertilizers) that play an important and vital role to create the biochemical! Compost as stated by the US Compost Council is a product by which you are not able to decipher what it was made from through sight and smell. As you all obviously understand most commercial entities do not know how to produce a quality compost! Compost in my opinion for all intense and purposes is an organic fertilizer it does not however feed nor establish the grouping of microbes that feed vegetation known as the Root-Tip-Colonizing microbes such as the Mycorrhizae fungi that associate with 95% of the vegetation worldwide.

The focus of what anyone trying to build fertility within the soil is not how much organic matter to add, rather should be how to jumpstart soil creation and once that's achieved how do I maintain the Humus building??

Humus is far more important to the soil and vegetation then compost and so I would suggest using the older pile of compost..

Regards,

I haven't even finished the first list of articles that have been posted but as far as my current understanding goes... I would say I mostly agree with 'stew'. (IMO this post is a lot better stated then the first time he posted something like this)

If your target is to increase the humus percentage in the soil, it is important you culture it correctly. It does take certain microbes to produce humus and those microbes need certain types, and amounts, of 'food'. Both organic and mineral. The first article I cited which claims a 50-80% humus product after 8 weeks explains their process...

CMC compost is built in layers and laid out in windrows for mechanical turning. The base layer should be a dry, high-carbon material like municipal yardwaste (leaves and shredded tree trimmings) or dried hay or straw. A moist, high-nitrogen material (animal manure, green chop) is laid down next, and so on, in repeating layers. Added last to the windrow, are:

Diabase or basalt rock dust (10-20 lbs/cu yd) — stimulates microorganisms and provides micronutrients

Finished compost (10% by volume) — regulates moisture and odor and provides microbial inoculum

Clay loam (10% by volume) — retains nitrogen and promotes formation of clay-humus crumb

CMC Compost Starter — a microbial inoculant

The use of rock dusts as a mineral amendment to compost piles is more common in European organic farming. Rock dusts are valued for their fineness of grind, resulting in a huge surface, and for their contribution of a broad range of trace elements. Many of these micronutrients function as biocatalysts for enzymatic reactions. Keep in mind that Siegfried Luebke developed a database of 3,600 microbial driven enzymatic reactions. Enzymes are critical in the breakdown of raw organic matter during the composting process. In turn, organic acids formed as a byproduct of microbial activity help to solubilize and mineralize elements in the parent rock dust material, thus making these mineral elements more bioavailable. When organic matter, clay, and rock dusts are mixed together in the compost windrow, the complex biotransformation and repolymerization processes that occur during composting provide an opportunity for organo-mineral chelated complexes to form.


So is there a little more to humus then a basic old compost? I think so.

'Stew' or anyone else, do you mind posting more articles that help directly explain why we would want to increase humus in the soil? Maybe you already have.. I need to catch up with the reading!

[Tim Wilson]

Steward said:

"Once again Compost is not Humus! Humates are not Humus! Peat Moss is not Humus! Only Humus is Humus of which it is a biochemical of complex carbon compounds"

Just curious; any opinion on the so-called Alaska humus products?

Tim

[Stewards of the Land]

Tim,

If it is the product Im thinking of then as I have heard it is a quality product however the product I speak is mined from the ground which is not sustainable and has a limited life. I am also with the understanding that they cut it with another material in order to extend the supply.

I cannot say for sure as I have never used any of those products. However the technology I have been using is cultured and is made from rapidly renewable resources. I am unable to expand due to the forum rules..

To answer the others questions... In conjunction to your composting methods make sure you acquire the highest quality inoculum that will have the "goats" and "cows" to speed up the breakdown of the green and brown wastes.. and make sure you get Mycorrhizae into the mix for all your vegetation..

Thanks,

[JDUtah]

"Studies often show reversal of deadly cancers and tumors using special humic substance therapies."

Now that's cool. Anyone up for a plate of very very old compost? I'll warm it if you prefer! :jester:

Edit: "On the other hand, humic acid has been shown to be a toxic factor for many mammalian cells"

Um, nevermind.

[JDUtah]

Stew,

I context of a pre-made/extracted humus, how would you suggest introducing that to an already planted turf?

My questions include what different ways can it be 'broken down?' and no longer exist as humus? Or can it?

Thanks

[DeepGreenLawn]

wouldn't compost have humus in it? It doesn't just turn to humus all at once does it? So I would think that compost would be better as you get a little of both. From what I have read so far though it will also have to be some pretty old compost.

[JDUtah]

Deep,

That is prolly true. I was thinking in stew's context. He is closely associated with a humic product that claims 94% cultured humus. I was wondering how he suggests it be applied to lawn care. His techniques if different then current compost aplpication techniques might even help in the compost world.

Ok so stew, another question for you... in saying "only humus is humus" are you saying you believe humus is an actual substance? (meaning one humus is NOT different then another?)

[DeepGreenLawn]

good thinking JD.

[Stewards of the Land]

JD,

To answer your question about Humus, Yes I believe it is a substance as Ive seen it as such and seen the independent lab analysis to validate. In simple terms it truly is a biochemical that has no NPK value. Also independent labs due have the ability to analyze for Humus.. as I understand its not a cheap analysis to have done.. something to think about for you folks.. Humus is Humus and is for all healthy and productive soils and vegetation.

I would suggest topdressing it so and water in so it will filter into the soil. I put it down through broadcast application, with a certain type of spreader, or through the Hydroseeding technique of which I also have and do. I have an organic program by which I use this tech to treat landscapes... its what we call Hydrofeeding using a Hydroseeder

Humus as long as it is not broken down due to chemicals, plowing, or other factors has a half life of many, many decades.

Thanks,

[treegal1]

he has some cool You tube vids, not for me to post so, look for your self's. don't pm me about it, freakin a read between the lines
see how to give a plant a bath/feed the soil

[Stewards of the Land]

treegal,

I somehow new you would know...

[treegal1]

i ain't genius but street smarts i got. we met 2 years ago at a USDA meet and greet, i think that's where, any ways nice to talk again.

[Stewards of the Land]

treegal,

Are you an agent of the USDA?

[JDUtah]

Ok so I HAVE A QUESTION that will help me better understand and apply the reading material….

IS IT THAT….

The molecular definition of Humus is not defined because humus isn’t just one molecule. Humus is more-so a group of (thousands) of different compounds that are the end result of microbes digesting, and re-digesting, organic matter. They are categorized into three groups; fulvic acids, humic acids, and humin.

One can separate these three sets of compounds by first taking the (complete humus?) and adding a strong base to it. The soluble humic substances are dissolved and what is left is the insoluble substances known as humin.

You can then add an acid to your dissolved solution which will cause one of the substances (which one?) to precipitate and thus you will have your three humic substances… humin, fulvic acids, and humic acids.

OR…

Is humus really one molecule, but the process of dissolving it’s components causes that molecule to be broken up into different compounds????????

[Kiril]

Compost does a soil good, you need nothing more. Don't make organics more difficult than it needs to be.

[Kiril]

I was thinking in stew's context. He is closely associated with a humic product that claims 94% cultured humus.

I for one would love to see the lab tests that validate that claim.

[Kiril]

Ok so I HAVE A QUESTION that will help me better understand and apply the reading material….

OMG, someone actually reading the material and injecting some of the correct terminology (Tim aside).

They are categorized into three groups; fulvic acids, humic acids, and humin.

This is consistent with the literature I have read and what is taught in soil science.

Is humus really one molecule, but the process of dissolving it’s components causes that molecule to be broken up into different compounds????????

No, they are mixtures of different compounds (fulvic and humic acids).

[jeffinsgf]

...He is closely associated with a humic product that claims 94% cultured humus. I was wondering how he suggests it be applied to lawn care. His techniques if different then current compost aplpication techniques might even help in the compost world....

And here is where my BS meter starts pegging into the red. "Cultured humus" is compost, by the more widely accepted definition of humus. Dr. Melendrez, (who I believe has written here using his name in the third person) is trying to differentiate his compost product -- which may be a very, very good product -- by twisting the meaning of a word into something other than what most people assume.

"Humus" as it is used by most gardeners, naturalists, and conservationists is naturally occurring decomposed material. You can't "make" humus, only nature can. Compost, if done thoroughly, can have much the same, if not exactly the same composition, but it is done through manipulation.

If I call a coffee table a "brftlymgn" it's still going to have books on it.

[Smallaxe]

I was under the impression that "humus" referred to the product of the naturally occurring decay process that happens in a forest compared to the accelerated decay process that happens in a man-made compost pile. Our state conservation department makes this distinction and suggests that woodland humus not be disturbed or harvested for use in gardens.

Humus = slow
Compost = fast

This quote sounds like you are saying the state has made a distinction between forest humus and compost. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Not stripping the forest is a good idea, but not using it 'at all' is wasteful. IMO.

Anyways I did a lot of reading on humates in relation to the real old stuff being mined from coal deposits, last fall. Nothing extraordinary popped out at me accept that this stuff would be good in weak soils. Instant compost sort of thing.

As with the 'char' you can get there quicker perhaps, but once you are at the top u r done. Char ain't making no miracles and niether are the humates, and niether are the 'organic fertilizers'. Definately with Kiril on this one. Compost does a soil good.

[Stewards of the Land]

And here is where my BS meter starts pegging into the red. "Cultured humus" is compost, by the more widely accepted definition of humus. Dr. Melendrez, (who I believe has written here using his name in the third person) is trying to differentiate his compost product -- which may be a very, very good product -- by twisting the meaning of a word into something other than what most people assume.

"Humus" as it is used by most gardeners, naturalists, and conservationists is naturally occurring decomposed material. You can't "make" humus, only nature can. Compost, if done thoroughly, can have much the same, if not exactly the same composition, but it is done through manipulation.

If I call a coffee table a "brftlymgn" it's still going to have books on it.

This is almost entertaining... No I am not Dr. Melendrez and I believe JD can vouch for me... He doesnt need to hide or walk in shadows as his credentials and respect within the scientific community speaks for itself!

Actually to my knowledge at least one man had made Humus as I see it and use it everyday! To state otherwise would be like saying man cant fly... isnt that what the Wright Brothers proved different?

You can argue the point all you want but science, yes science, has advanced and evolved to show or state that there is a difference between Humus and Compost. It even states that compost is a component in the info Kiril linked.. What I find interesting is that many of you are trying to disprove my comments yet you have offered no validatable evidence that states compost is the sole contributor to Humus formation nor are you acknowledging the fact that science has proven that Mycorrhizae fungi are also contributors to Humus formation...

Tunnel vision does not allow anyone to see the beauty on the horizon or trigger the imaginative mind...

[ICT Bill]

Stewarts,
try not to take things so personally, everyone new has to prove their salt.

There are some on here that have been here a very long time and have heard it all. They are just trying to hear what you have to say.

Expect a good arguement but very little flaming, there are some very smart folks in this forum so be careful what you claim

I think everyone will agree Humate/Humic has its place and is an good tool to have in the tool box. The saying "right plant in the right place" holds true for most of the tools we use as well

Please get up on top of your soap box and tell it like it is just remember other people may have a different point of view because of different experiences

[Stewards of the Land]

Bill,

I have no issue with having to earn my stripes here.. however I will and do take issue when the questioning is belittling. I dont believe that is beneficial for the debate nor does it make anyone look intelligent! I am happy to debate however I will not be bullied and will stand my ground when that has transpired. If we want to debate then lets do so but lets respect each other... no one has a monopoly on everything especially Humus! So lets discuss and ask quality questions without trying to make someone feel stupid or boost anothers ego!

I dont question anyones education or intelligence though I do question the misinterpretations being spread about Humus and that is why I have piped in because I believe too many materials have been clumped into one word..

"Humus is the un-scientific name for the substance we call Humic substances also called by some sources Humic acids. These substances are made up of three main organic acids - Humic, Fulvic and Ulmic with the proportion depending on where you are and the original vegetation of the site. The characteristic of these acids will very in solubility from being completely insoluble as in the Ulmic acid to being completely soluble like the Fulvic acid. Water at any pH will carry Fulvic into a solution while only a very high pH liquid will carry Humic acid into a solution. If you have a liquid solution of Humic acids and you pH down the liquid using an acid factor like Hydrogen peroxide and slowly lower the pH, you will see the Humic acid slowly drop out of solution until the pH is so low that no Humic acid remains. This is called precipitating, and is done with many chemical cleaning processes in industry. There must be a potential difference in pH between the material you are trying to drop out of solution and the material you are using to lower or raise the pH of the solution in order to get a precipitation.

Not all organic matter will decompose down into Humic acids..

Humic, Fulvic and Ulmic acids all have unique molecular structures. Individually they are called Humic acid fractions of the total Humus or Humic substance."

This is from the Doc himself...

Thanks,

[ICT Bill]

If you have a liquid solution of Humic acids and you pH down the liquid using an acid factor like Hydrogen peroxide and slowly lower the pH, you will see the Humic acid slowly drop out of solution until the pH is so low that no Humic acid remains.

Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer not an acid

This is called precipitating, and is done with many chemical cleaning processes in industry. There must be a potential difference in pH between the material you are trying to drop out of solution and the material you are using to lower or raise the pH of the solution in order to get a precipitation.


I am a little unsure why you are trying explain precipitation to us

[Stewards of the Land]

It was to answer a previous comment/question raised by JD...

Sorry to have confused..

[JDUtah]

Jeff,

I do not believe Stewards is Dr. Melendrez. Albeit it appears to me that his education of humus has been almost strictly from that source. It also appears to me that Dr. Melendrez is pioneering the production of humic substances from a very refined and ingenious process.

I have no direct experience with that 'secrete process' but from the reading I have done as I have searched, he has created a process to feed particular microbes precise amounts of 'raw food' (select amounts of particular proteins, sugars, etc.) and have the end result be his claimed humus product. I do not deny that the product is 94% humus. I believe it can be. I cited articles that utilize a more crude form of food input and still are able to end with an 80% humus substance.

Is this good? Yes for manufacturing quality and quantity... But the thought comes to me that it does not help handle waste problems the same way composting does. (As treegal said... lucrative :clapping:)

I believe the confusion comes because it appears that Dr. Melendrez is trying to claim that his is the only real humus and everything else (cultivated or farmed) are merely humic substances. I believe this is a lost effort because the scientific and agricultural community has already defined humus, and that definition is not one of exclusivity. I believe Stewards will eventually admit that we will not accept that there is only one real form of humus.

I have not digested all of Kiril's linked articles yet (thanks for them, more are always welcome!) but think I have just enough bite of understanding to agree with Bill when he says humus is good, but has its place. And even within humus, each type of humus has its place.

For instance humic substances soluble in water may be easy to deliver to the established turf (topdressing and leeching in). But what happens when that same quality causes them to leach out of the top part of the soil? They may have even chelated with a necessary metal and assist it's leaching into the soil and away from the plant roots. In this instance I believe an insoluble form of humus tilled into the soil would be the best approach. Like Bill said, each has its own place.

This leads me to another series of questions...

Humus is not organic matter, it has no nutritional value itself, it is itself just a 'helper' molecule contributing to soil structure and plant nutrient sorbtion. The questions are as follows...

1- Is humus represented in the OM% of soil tests?

2- Whether it is or not, is there a way to test the humuc % in a soil?

3- Has anyone determined or defined an appropriate amount of humus in a soil? (like the suggested 5-8% OM numbers that have been thrown around)

TyTy

[JDUtah]

Compost does a soil good, you need nothing more. Don't make organics more difficult than it needs to be.

I am getting at that conclusion... albeit I would love to have the underlying understandings that you do to stand on that claim myself. Thanks for helping. :)

[JDUtah]

Easygrass, thanks for the links. Does anyone know if Terra Preta is associated with humus?

We should resurrect Tree's Terra Preta thread and take that for a run.. if you guys have enough application and experience to expand on the principles?

[jeffinsgf]

I am sure to get slammed for citing Wikipedia as a reference, but there was an interesting distinction made there that is at the crux of my problem with this thread. In the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article it states a discrepancy between the soil science definition of humus and and agricultural definition of humus. The first being the earlier mentioned "compost that can compost no more" and the later being the broader term of the result of composting or natural decay as a soil component.

My apologies to Dr. Melendrez and to SOTL for thinking they are one and the same. SOTL would appear to be a devoted student, at least.

I am a hobby farmer, not a soil scientist, so for me, humus is what nature makes in the woods under the leaves and compost is what I make behind the barn with my kitchen scraps, lawn clippings, and brush chips. I'll leave the humus alone and relish in the creation and use of my compost.

[treegal1]

treegal,

Are you an agent of the USDA?

no just a very lucky guest

wiki rules, if they slam......... more positive

[ICT Bill]

treegal, Are you an agent of the USDA?

Yep you caught them, dang I didn't say anything, I wonder how they found out???? I guess your undercover is blown TG !

Isn't wiki great, and self sustaining and it kind of works it self out, nice model

[Kiril]

I am sure to get slammed for citing Wikipedia as a reference

Nothing wrong with Wiki as long as the information provided is cited to credible sources of information.

[treegal1]

or some whack job like Jerry baker, that guy, one of my idiot customers actually got his book and killed everything with beer and....god only knows, what a POS.

the info presented here i will say has gotten some scrutiny, by some great "peers"

[Kiril]

1- Is humus represented in the OM% of soil tests?

Yes, assuming loss-on-ignition, however there is a margin of error to be expected.


2- Whether it is or not, is there a way to test the humuc % in a soil?

Yes, and too expensive to even consider for landscapes.

3- Has anyone determined or defined an appropriate amount of humus in a soil? (like the suggested 5-8% OM numbers that have been thrown around)

There is no appropriate amount as it depends on the site, soils, and plants your dealing with.

Now if your dealing with a sandy soil with little or no nutrient and water holding capacity, AND you need to create a highly productive system in a hurry, THEN I might consider adding humus. For landscapes, use a local source of compost and let the microbes do the rest.

Compost does a soil good and is sustainable, especially if produced on site or locally from your municipal green waste stream.

[ICT Bill]

Compost does a soil good and is sustainable, especially if produced on site or locally from your municipal green waste stream.

Kiril, I love the way you talk, we need a compost hotline don't you think

1 888-compostquik

Hello! I need compost quick, and some really good stuff. How fast can you get here

it could be called domino's compost.

actually we have a www name, Iwantcompost.com..........next year

[Kiril]

actually we have a www name, Iwantcompost.com..........next year

:laugh: Right on.

[DeepGreenLawn]

that is a question, Tree, or anyone else who makes bulk amounts of compost, do you sell compost to the public or can you not make enough?

[Tim Wilson]

Humus is organic matter. I noticed someone say it wasn't.

Humus has not been defined by the scientific nor by the agricultural community.

Compost added to the soil is transformed into humus; a carbon storage unit.

Humus is essential to organic growing.

Besides there being no definitive, the argument concerns humus being fully transformed material or some transformation is still taking place (covalent or non-covalent bonds) (polymer or aggregate)

[ICT Bill]

that is a question, Tree, or anyone else who makes bulk amounts of compost, do you sell compost to the public or can you not make enough?


Composters are typically burdened with the end result of a waste stream that is dumped on their property or brought in containers. The end result being compost, compost for some odd reason has just not sparked any demand. It normally used up in mixes for top soil, some times it is bagged and sold in stores. The stuff I have seen in bags I wouldn't use on even YOUR yard LOL

Ben and Jerries makes some nice ice cream but there is a lot of waste from the manufacture, enter intervail compost facility. When you buy skinless boneless chicken breast at the store, the skin and bone NOW go to composting facilities, this was not always the case it was normally buried in land fills. Enter Bay Organics they have a bagged Chesapeake Green, it was baby chicks it is now yard compost. The list goes on and on.

You basically break even by the tipping fees charged and try to make a profit on the compost end result, the only issue is that there are so many compost waste streams competing with each other that you can hardly make enough to cover the fuel bill.

[treegal1]

we have started to run out with just our own needs, however we have generated some interest from waste producers, they are losing money with the waste, so instead of get more dumpsters they make a fruit delivery(rotten fruit) they use the existing delivery infrastructure= less cost.

large coffee House saves with recycling all waste except food and grinds, saves big $$$ pays for smaller disposal

manure producers start getting fined for runoff.......this says everything. 5x8 2 yards removed, they loaded it, 68$ per yard + short order charge, set up 8 more stops tomorrow, the goose neck trailer goes to work first thing.

crab waste/ fish guts, it costs on average 75 cents per pound to get rid of it, 2 totes 1800 lbs...

this is for you DGL kudzu look at the N in that stuff wow.

lake weeds, road kill, waste waste waste, put you left hand out so that they know your not shaking hands!!!!!!!

[DeepGreenLawn]

I went by our local chicken processing plant and asked them but they said it was already contracted out to some company. Don't know what they do with it and the lady didn't seem to care either. But at least I am getting the right mindset right?

[ICT Bill]

Spoke to some great folks today, they have charter boats and I said, so you are also farmers (organic tomatoes, blueberries, strawberries, etc.) and you are throwing away and actually paying people to take away your fish leftovers.......... you are obviously not thinking this through

do you have any 55 gallon drums around? yes
Do you have a bunch of fish available? yes
Have you heard of hydrolyzing fish? NO

DUUHHHHH!!!!

[treegal1]

yep thats the way, it almost cost me 30 K to find out how, its just patis fish sauce, nam doc.
also what about fish meal ?? sun dried

[DeepGreenLawn]

DUUHHHHH!!!!

HAHAHAHAHA! :laugh:

[Organic a go go]

[QUOTE=treegal1;2392186]manure producers start getting fined for runoff....QUOTE]


Down south where I came from hog farms get all kinds of pushback from communities because of smell from manure holding ponds. I've often thought that smell is actually money if someone could take advantage. I've never seen or heard of pig manure compost.

[DeepGreenLawn]

point me in the right direction if it is anywhere near North GA.

We want herbivore type crap right? Not something like from dogs or cats? Otherwise I would think that animal shelters would be a great place to visit.

What about cow patties? I know you got to go get em unlike horse manure but is it worth the time?

[jeffinsgf]

Open field = too much time to collect.
Stockyard = $$$$$

[Organic a go go]

From my understanding pig operations are verrryyy confined. My mother lives in a small town on Stockton Lake in MO and they just prevented a huge pig farm from coming in over concerns about manure holding. In fact jeffinsgf they got some folks in Greene Co. involved with water quality issues.

Seems to me if Im a pig farmer and I know everybody hates to see me coming I'd be only to happy to turn my problem into a resource but nobody seems to be doing it.

[DeepGreenLawn]

stockyard? dairy farm!

[treegal1]

actually they inject it into the soil raw, 120 day before the crop gets planted,like a knife seeder except shite.

DGL cagles, they got some pooooo

[muddstopper]

Hog farms put their manures in a lagoon where it is left to settel out the solids. It works like a large open pit septic system. The runoff is caught in another lagoon where it is pumped and sprayed onto their own fields, or anybody elses that will take it. I was given 150,000 gals of the settled solids just a few months ago IF i would just come and get it. They probably have that much a week. Pig poo is a great souce of P, but I cant afford the tanker freight, nor do I have a place to store it. To use it in a composting facility one would have to mix the manures with wood chips or other plant materials, but it would make a great finished product provideing you could generate the heat necessary to kill the harmfull bacteria.

[Organic a go go]

Exactly. Given the ruckus those lagoons cause though it seems to me someone would take 'em outta the equation.

[treegal1]

they are and its profitable, at 155 degrees its a pretty sure thing, and with that going to worms.......and wood i got bt the load........

[JDUtah]

Can hog waste be "pressed" like they do to the cow waste in the video Tree posted on another thread?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=X6TiawLx0J8

[DeepGreenLawn]

DGL cagles, they got some pooooo

That is exactly who I had in mind, I am going to try and get by there tomorrow. I got a couple of guys at the FD who deal with cattle, would they have a source too? I am unfamiliar with how that works, they don't do the dairy so I don't know if they have them herded together in a similar situation that would be a hot spot for poop.

Chicken farms... do they generally give their poo away or do they try to sell it?

[JDUtah]

This question might apply better here.

I thought finished compost was finished because a majority of the organic food for the microbes was digested. Hence the microbes stop metabolozing and the pile cools.

On another thread it was stated that compost can green up a lawn quickly because there are quick reproducing microbes that can eat the compost and make the nitrgoen readily avaialabe.

Now I'm lost. I thought the food in the compost if done correctly should already have been eaten? Aye I'm going insane.

[DeepGreenLawn]

failed to mention on this thread,

Cagles was a JACK POT!

Still makes me smile from ear to ear knowing what I found there thanks to tree.

[Stewards of the Land]

JD,

I have tested many a pile and everytime it came back with an NPK value so I am not sure what they are talking about!

And they claim I the whacked one... talking out of both sides if you ask me... again flawed science in my mind...

Ive used compost and it did green up the lawn but it also turned it brown and as I understand it creates Hypomicrobial activity which is a large term of the microbes working really hard really fast and then burning out! Kinda like us humans when we eat too many Snickers bars!

[DeepGreenLawn]

would it not be different microbes performing different roles? These microbes breakdown the product to compost and these break the compost down for food for the plants?

[Stewards of the Land]

Deep,

What upsets me with this whole compost debate is that its all about compost! Plants in a accurate soil ecosystem known as the Soil Food Web receive the majority of nutrients from the Root-Tip-Colonizing-Mutualistic microbes such as the Mycorrhizae Fungi. It is a symbiotic relationship! There is over 100 years of research that validates this relationship. So I would recommend you research that fungi to get a better feel..

[DeepGreenLawn]

Right, I have heard poeple talking about those guys but that they work with compost as well. Am I wrong with this? I understand that they basically act as the fingers of the roots to bring in outside food sources. The whole rizosphere? I have looked into this, but as of right now it comes back to a food source. If humus comes from compost, then wouldn't they both offer the same products?

I say I have looked into it meaning I have looked enough to get the basics but not a full research program like what JD is doing.

[Kiril]

I understand it creates Hypomicrobial activity which is a large term of the microbes working really hard really fast and then burning out! Kinda like us humans when we eat too many Snickers bars!

Wow .... no comment.

Plants in a accurate soil ecosystem known as the Soil Food Web receive the majority of nutrients from the Root-Tip-Colonizing-Mutualistic microbes such as the Mycorrhizae Fungi.

Wow ...... again ..... no comment.

[treegal1]

oh it gets better he actually said that molasses is a dangerous food source. it blew me away.

[Stewards of the Land]

Right, I have heard poeple talking about those guys but that they work with compost as well. Am I wrong with this? I understand that they basically act as the fingers of the roots to bring in outside food sources. The whole rizosphere? I have looked into this, but as of right now it comes back to a food source. If humus comes from compost, then wouldn't they both offer the same products?

I say I have looked into it meaning I have looked enough to get the basics but not a full research program like what JD is doing.

Mycorrhizae do not live very long in Compost as it is too harsh of an environment for them to live.

Again Humus does not come from compost however compost is a contributor to building Humus and so are the Mycorrhizae and the other components I spoke. Again Compost is not the sole contributor!

[treegal1]

they live just fine on grass like Bahia, and also do well on banana corms and yucca/malanga/taro.

[ICT Bill]

Mycorrhizae do not live very long in Compost as it is too harsh of an environment for them to live.

Stewards, you are on very thin ice here. I would suggest a little research into the subject first

Again Humus does not come from compost however compost is a contributor to building Humus and so are the Mycorrhizae and the other components I spoke.

Even thinner here, it is better to ask questions than to state made up facts.

we are all in this together trying to learn from each other, I'm am not trying to go down the "I'm right and your wrong" path in fact I am trying to avoid it so that we can understand where you are coming from and what knowledge we can suck from your brain for the greater good

[Stewards of the Land]

Sir, everyday I work with one of the three growers of Mycorrhizae in the North American Hemisphere and know for a fact that my statement is valid!

It amazes me how you and others here spout this nonsence that compost is the sole contributor to Humus formation when You yourself posted a thread that stated Glomalin was a contributor! Glomalin comes from Mycorrhizae Fungi and not compost! Sara Wright has even stated that in her publishings! There is even a specific amount of Mycorrhizae required per square foot for proper inoculation and colonization...

I mean no disrespect but the points I have made are valid! Yes Good Quality Compost is good for the soil but it is NOT the sole contributor of Humus formation and it is inappropriate for you or anyone for that matter to misinform the public on this forum! I stand 100% behind my statements because I have seen the studies, the botanical garden research facility, and have seen the everyday examples of Humus formation both on my property and on my clients properties from three applications a year!

Its solid soil science, not thin ice...

Thanks,

[ICT Bill]

There is even a specific amount of Mycorrhizae required per square foot for proper inoculation and colonization...

Please enlighten us, on what type of plant and which endo or ecto mycorrhizae and which mycorrhizae helper bacteria please.

Corn, maize, legumes, ericacious, tomatoes, peppers, Kentucky blue grass, St. Augustine, bent? which variety? Oaks or Poplars? pines which type, C4 grasses or C3, is it the same for rice, what about pumpkins. are all hartig nets good? which ones form them, if 90% of plants have myco associations what happens to the other 10%. does mycorrhizae make hormone or enzymes which ones and what do they produce. what is the best soil profile for endo myco's, do trees have endo mycorrhizal associations, what about azaleas or blue spruces, can I use it potted plants, what food do mycorrhizae like to eat, how long will they last in the soil without a root association, are the same myco's all over the world or are they climate specific, can mycorrhizae be grown without a root association, can I brew them in my teas

Can mycorrhizae have a symbiotic relationship with a plant in sterile soil with no organic matter and is it even a valid question? Since it is a symbiotic relationship, in the said environment, what would the fungi have to give back to the plant for the exudate?

just curious

I do believe you are in the "forest from the trees" mode

[Prolawnservice]

now ya did it, All excellent questions.

[Kiril]

I don't recall anyone saying compost is the sole contributor to humus formation. To make such a statement would be silly. Let us dispense with the nonsense and use the correct terminology when talking about soils (eg. SOM or soil organic matter, SOC or soil organic carbon ..... your choice)

[Kiril]

Its solid soil science, not thin ice...

No offense, but some of the "soil science" you have stated on this forum is less than solid, more like liquid.

[Kiril]

BTW, compost does a soil good :)

[treegal1]

this riddler is just a riddler, if he stated a fact or told us the HOW to and no the I cant say , or figure it out on your own, it would peak my interest. however his input is just as helpful as a text in greek, lets have the translation or a least the original text in completion.

and after that happens, just let me guess, he has just the products to prime the.....are your kidding!!

[Stewards of the Land]

Please enlighten us, on what type of plant and which endo or ecto mycorrhizae and which mycorrhizae helper bacteria please.

Corn, maize, legumes, ericacious, tomatoes, peppers, Kentucky blue grass, St. Augustine, bent? which variety? Oaks or Poplars? pines which type, C4 grasses or C3, is it the same for rice, what about pumpkins. are all hartig nets good? which ones form them, if 90% of plants have myco associations what happens to the other 10%. does mycorrhizae make hormone or enzymes which ones and what do they produce. what is the best soil profile for endo myco's, do trees have endo mycorrhizal associations, what about azaleas or blue spruces, can I use it potted plants, what food do mycorrhizae like to eat, how long will they last in the soil without a root association, are the same myco's all over the world or are they climate specific, can mycorrhizae be grown without a root association, can I brew them in my teas

Can mycorrhizae have a symbiotic relationship with a plant in sterile soil with no organic matter and is it even a valid question? Since it is a symbiotic relationship, in the said environment, what would the fungi have to give back to the plant for the exudate?

just curious

I do believe you are in the "forest from the trees" mode

What a jumble of questions so here is my response..

1. You must have a root system of a associated plant to grow any and all mycorrhizae.

2. No, you cannot grow mycorrhizae in any kind of tea, brew or compost, including a compost tea. You can grow mycorrhizae of some types in a machine called an Airlift Bioreactor but you still have roots of a host plant involved.

3. Some oaks are endo and some are ecto mycorrhizae so it just depends on which species you are talking about.

4. Most non woody plants are going to be endo mycorrhizal

5. Most grasses world wide will associate with the same endo mycorrhizae that are all called generalists.

6. Mycorrhizae do produce specific enzymes which are used for many objectives including sequestering minerals from the soil. If they produce hormones it is for their own direct physiological needs only.

7. Mycorrhizae don't eat food, they are fed calories by their host plant in exchange will provide water and minerals to their host plant.

8. Where ever plants grow on the face of the planet there are mycorrhizae that associate with most of those plants. There are very few exceptional plants that don't need mycorrhizae and when you find those exceptions you are dealing with plants that have developed exceptional relationships with bacteria which do a similar mutualistic benefit for that plant.

9. Mycorrhizae are not climate specific, only plant, genus and species specific.

10. Some trees are endo and some are ecto. see point 3 on this issue.

I dont feel I need to go tit for tat with you Bill. From what I have found you or your company is not a grower of Mycorrhizae and purchase someone elses product of which you private label and or attempt to blend. Now thats not to say you arent educated because you wouldnt be where you are if you werent. But I left the "whose smarter" game back in high school...

All in all you are allowed to believe what you want to believe as that is the beauty of this country! However I would caution anyone to think that there arent others that have more advanced technology and/or science versus yours or even Dr. Inghams! There are and I work with them everyday!

I will say that your work is far better then the work of the petrochemical companies as all they want is to sell us toxins!

"A riddle is a statement or question having a double or veiled meaning, put forth as a puzzle to be solved." - Wikipedia. So go find the answer yourself instead of having someone give it to you.

"A nation that destroys its soils destroys itself. Forests are the lungs of our land, purifying the air and giving fresh strength to our people." - Franklin D. Roosevelt

Healthy Soil is the Secret Solution to Global Warming(R)

Thanks,

[ICT Bill]

We do grow some of our own mycorrhizae, others we purchase

I really did not expect you to answer all of those questions but thanks for the great info.
I am not trying to go tit for tat, only to point out that there are many many facits to plants associations, your prior posts assumes a one size fits all mentality, you never said that just reading between the lines

and in fact you can grow your own ecto mycorrhizae in your brews and other types too

I am and have been very interested in one question to which I have never gotten a satisfactory answer. How long does a mycorrhizae spore last in soil without a root association? weeks, months, years, decades I really have no idea, I think it is all of the above

You are registering your statements now? (r) they would have to be officially registered to use that mark

[JDUtah]

While we are on this vein, if I understand correctly, certain Mycorrhizae only live with certain plants. The symbiotic relationships are fairly specialized. So applying Mycorrhizae that doesn't associate with turf, or even more specifically, a specific type of turf, would be POINTLESS, no? Like I said that is my current understanding. So do either of you grow or buy mycorrhizae that is grown on turf roots? More specifically, Kentucky bluegrass, or fescue?

[treegal1]

a Buddhist monk that we had the rare pleasure to speak with about the ways of his wonderful gardens said," the path that your are seeking is one that is seldom walked except by those that walk every path without a destination"

that one took me a while, and then it hit me, life, nature, people, plants,bugs,monks,micro herd, its all about variety, the more different types of ( ) there are the better it is, take food, one food source every day, you now the out come, its bad! you have to have many foods to feed a diverse populous and the diverse populous to keep everything in check, and on and on into the cycle.

the one dominant type thing, we have seen this before, i can say what they were talking about, it was in GERMAN

[Stewards of the Land]

JD,

That would be Glomus Intraradices which has an association typically for all your food crops and your grasses. You have typically one species as the dominant and others that are helpers. Not all will associate and as I understand it will become a food source within the Web. There are group of generalists that will associate for a wide variety of genus and species of vegetation.

My associate grows the largest variety of species within the market. We can acquire cultures of select species if need be for specific host plants but are close to having a complete bank available for our needs.

Like I said it is not pointless because some will fall in place as helpers.

I register comments that are registered currently!

So du kannst nich Deutsh verstanden?

Thanks,

[treegal1]

Mein Englisch ist gut Freund

[treegal1]

Ich spreche aslmost sechs, fast gut genug, um Vergangenheit Zoll

[Stewards of the Land]

Sechs Sprache huh? Das ist sehr interessant!

Sind Sie eine Americanshe dame oder von ein anderes Land?

[treegal1]

Americanshe dame RED Hals

[Stewards of the Land]

HAHAHAHA!

Das ist sehr Lustig!

Danke!

[treegal1]

Wenn Sie klug sind und denken, für sich selbst, warum nicht geben Ihnen alle Werkzeuge, Spaß zu haben und zu einigen der besten Clubs und sehen tha wildesten Dinge können. den Tropen nach Europa, es hat Spaß gemacht. Jetzt bin ich nur ein einfacher Gärtner. Leiden auf der gramar.

[DeepGreenLawn]

I agree 100%

[JDUtah]

http://translate.google.com/

[JDUtah]

JD,

That would be Glomus Intraradices which has an association typically for all your food crops and your grasses. You have typically one species as the dominant and others that are helpers. Not all will associate and as I understand it will become a food source within the Web. There are group of generalists that will associate for a wide variety of genus and species of vegetation.

My associate grows the largest variety of species within the market. We can acquire cultures of select species if need be for specific host plants but are close to having a complete bank available for our needs.

Like I said it is not pointless because some will fall in place as helpers.

I register comments that are registered currently!

So du kannst nich Deutsh verstanden?

Thanks,

Thanks much

[treegal1]

dont make me cuss you out in Spanish or something, creole

[Stewards of the Land]

Ich lebe in Österreich für eine gute Zeit und Know dieser Vereine Sie sprechen! Ich liebe mein Österreich

Your very welcome JD!

[DeepGreenLawn]

Baum, ich bin beeindruckt, ich würde gerne eine andere Sprache sprechen. Ich habe spanisch in Gymnasium und reichte nur, weil die Lehrer schlecht fühlte ich mich zu erraten. Was tun, yall Gedanken über die kommerzielle sie sagen, es ist der schnellste Weg zum Erlernen einer neuen Sprache?

Meine Schwester-n-Recht sprechen können 5 verschiedenen Sprachen, denke ich. Ich glaube, ich sollte beginnen mit Spanisch.

Sorry I cheated...

[treegal1]

well you will have to see in person then

yes if you want to be in any green industry

[DeepGreenLawn]

LOL, I forgot what I wrote and had to use the translator again. What a moron.:hammerhead:

[JDUtah]

I think I might have stumbled on an answer to my question about a cooled compost pile and the organic matter not being digested completely.

The compost I have available to me has chunks of wood still in it. (maybe 1/4 wide and 1" long max.) Anyway i was thinking if I screened them out before a topdress, what can I do with teh 'waste'? Then it occured to me, mix them with grass clippings and viola! The CN ratio is re-established and the new pile should heat up and break down the chunks farther. Duh! lol. But apply this principle to my question about a completely digested compost.

In an ideal world, there would be a perfect balance of food in a compost pile for the microbes to break it down and have NOTHING left but microbes and thier biochemicals. This could possibly be considered humus? What else would be there?

[ICT Bill]

In an ideal world, there would be a perfect balance of food in a compost pile for the microbes to break it down and have NOTHING left but microbes and thier biochemicals. This could possibly be considered humus? What else would be there?

JD part of that question is what got me where I am today

Jeez I wish I wouldn't have asked that question ! LOL

What do you have when you screen or break out the tiny little particles that are left from the compost? super concentrated compost tea, in a solid form

[JDUtah]

What do you have when you screen or break out the tiny little particles that are left from the compost? super concentrated compost tea, in a solid form

I like it :weightlifter:

[JDUtah]

Didn't want to bump this thread, but wanted to catalog some reading...

"Composting involves converting waste material into a product that is stable and that confers beneficial effects when added to soil. Stabilization is achieved by the conversion of readilly biodegradable organic compounds into less biodegradable products, in particular humus"
http://orgprints.org/6694/01/Final_Report.pdf - page 9

Wish I had that for the very first debate with Stewards. :)

[JDUtah]

Ok, so pathogens generally die in a compost pile that sustains 135 degrees for 3 days... Does this generally include turf disease pathogens?

Like say... I use grass clippings that are infected with Blight Leaf Spot... will the composting process generally erradicate that form of fungi while the good fungi can handle the higher heat?

I think so, but just making sure... thanks...

[treegal1]

I can argue some craziness like "madame" would, well actually no I am not that nuts :laugh:

[JDUtah]

Haha! Whew, we are all relieved.

[ICT Bill]

Yes, These are USDA guidelines for proper composting. The thermophiles get the compost very hot. sometime the piles catch on fire, one large composter I know has a dedicated person to check temps in piles all day long and catalogs the readings, if a pile gets to 165f it is red flagged and turned almost immediately

Once the pile catches on fire internally you are basically screwed, you just have to wait it out, if you try to turn the pile you feed the fire with air and get more fire, water cannot get down into the pile without turning to steam first, basically screwed

Good aerobic compost will have little to no pathogens or toxins. If the pile is not quite aerobic and never get hot enough for not enough time there will be left over pathogens

Years and years ago when I used to use herbicides (weed and feed) on my lawn and had no idea how to compost properly, I could not figure out why every plant I put my compost on died, left over weed and feed basically. I just thought I had a black thumb

[JDUtah]

Thanks Bill.
The more you know the greener your thumb becomes I suppose.

[JDUtah]

Here's a question that is appropriate for this thread... Why do microbes even make humic substances?

I don't think it is to store food for later.

Maybe to help give them a favorable environment?

Or is it just residue as they manufacture other molecules?

Or?