Horse farms and compost

[DeepGreenLawn]

OK, as you all know we can get a good source of materials from horse farms, chicken farms, etc, etc. But... what happens when you are in a position like myself where I can't really haul the stuff off for people due to the fact that I have no place to put it.

I have already spoken with a couple horse farms in my immediate area and have vaguely mentioned the thought of leaving it on site to compost and then hauling it once it is finished. One didn't seem to mind, the other didn't think that would work to well. I myself do not see what the problem is other than they would rather have it hauled off than keep it where it is. I do see however how this could turn in to more of a nuisance for the clients than they would like added to their already full plate.

What would be your suggestions? I am also currently researching areas to get large black drain pipes to compost in being it will be much cleaner and contained that I should be able to use in the rear of my property. Would I just go and get what I need from the people and leave it at that or has someone found the right things to say by having the people allow you to compost it on site?

I can't wait until I can afford an area to do this in outside of my backyard. But that is part of owning a new business, you do what you can.

[Tim Wilson]

Large black drain pipe? -- Huh? I'd like to hear your plan.

Find a horse farm with a garden and offer them a share of the compost or trade yard service or...

[ICT Bill]

Tim It is a technique used by TG and others where you can compost in a small footprint, you stand the pipe on its end and inject air into the column or even misted air if you are trying to keep moisture up.

They are normally 15 to 20 feet tall and 3 to 4 feet across. You can stand them side by side and take up very little area.

When the temp starts to go down you just pull the gate at the bottom, mix with a loader and fill it back up from the top

[DeepGreenLawn]

hmmm... I didn't even know that. I was just going to have a bunch of 5-6' tall "barrels" that would trap the heat being black and pump air in from the bottom. I haven't thought about emptying them yet, I figured it would be similar to what you said about taking out the bottom or something.

I am still just a very very beginner when it comes to compost. I looked at two piles of shavings today. One looked pretty new and the other was old enough for weeds and grass to be growing on top. It was built on a slope so I went out about 3 feet on top of the pile and started digging to see what I could find. I got down about 4' and it finally started turning gooey and black. It still looked and had the texture of shavings though, not compost.

Obviously I still have a lot to learn. But at least the ball is rolling. I now have the supplies to build a "lean to" screen and am currently looking for the drain pipe.

[treegal1]

that's it, bill seen it in action, wet air always.

turn that pile and you might have something, probably better that the other guys stuff to

[treegal1]

cedar shavings take forever to compost, dont worry about them, there OK, use a rototiller to mix it up some if you can. the screen will help also..

[Tim Wilson]

Tim It is a technique used by TG and others where you can compost in a small footprint, you stand the pipe on its end and inject air into the column or even misted air if you are trying to keep moisture up.

They are normally 15 to 20 feet tall and 3 to 4 feet across. You can stand them side by side and take up very little area.

When the temp starts to go down you just pull the gate at the bottom, mix with a loader and fill it back up from the top

Sounds interesting, although unless the pipe were salvaged gratis, it may be pricey.

[treegal1]

salvaged gratis, that's my name, how did you guess?

the guy at the county land fill almost had a heart attack when I said i wanted all the drain pipe that was in there, they did not know what to do with it, tub grinder would not work, and the size(volume) was cost prohibitive to transport, and they did not have a place to take them!!

he put them in a live bottom truck 3 loads and sent them to me. mostly 5 foot wide OD and 14= feet long.

so i ask why so many, the drain requirements make it so that it takes 1.4 pipes to make a drain culvert, so every new drain makes a waste tube that gets dumped off at the landfill

[DeepGreenLawn]

WOW, can't believe I didn't think to got to the landfill. I am basically looking for trash and for whatever reason the landfill didn't come to mind.

[DeepGreenLawn]

could you post some pics of your composters? So we can get an Idea of the specs, Bills description blew my mind, I thought you just stood them up and filled them, but that doesn't explain unloading.

[ICT Bill]

It is all about the Carbon to Nitrogen ratio. There lots of sites and books on composting.

Inputs that are not fully composted will steal the nutrients from your plants/turf and you will have to use fertilizers to keep up with the drain of nutrients in the soil. Composts that are still warm will rob nutrients from the soil to finish the process.

Make or use a finished compost otherwise it will finish in the soil, not a great thing, counter productive

I composted in the backyard for years and never realized how important the C/N ratio was until someone showed me. I make some mighy fine compost these days. Before it never really seemed to make a difference and I could not figure out why.

We put everything in there, all of the shredded paper from the office and house, tablescraps, prunings, debris, I have not tried dead animals yet though TG, I think it would attract the other live ones

[jeffinsgf]

DGL,

As much as I admire your drive, and as much as I respect TG and all she does, you're off target again. To do what TG is talking about you need space and equipment. Keep looking for that and working toward that, but go spend the $20 a yard and get the stuff down on your customer's yards. In one thread you asked if you should just give up and buy bagged. Look at the cost of the bagged product and the size of the bag (in cubic feet), then compare that to $20 for 27 cubic feet --- my guess is that the bagged product is 3 to 10 times more than bulk.

My designed version of TG's compost "silos" requires a front end loader. Rig some shackles to the top. When you're ready to turn the pile, just hook the FEL to the top and drag it off. Set it someplace new and fill it back up. May not be as elegant as TG's doors on the bottom, but it's gonna work. I am all over this idea. I'm out of town on business, but when I get back, I'll be on the scrounge for plastic culverts.

I would be amazed if you ever found anyone who will agree to let you compost their manure on their land with their equipment. What would be the point? They want it gone, period.

[treegal1]

ok no doors on the pipe, to dump them just push them over, no heavy eqp. just gravity. we have several farms that let us compost on site, 7 to be exact not just one.

[treegal1]

heres some other pics, we will have more soon, screening, add the infamous TUBES,plus some other tid bits.

also fyi, there tractor was used for several pickups today as well as we got paid$$$$
its a loaner from a compost site, one that a farmer let us set up on his land for free

[treegal1]

we are also going to post the in vessel compost-er on wheels, yeah man 25 yards of compost at a whack, that's 20 x 22x delivery and then add the spread. don't worry all i will take you through this a picture at a time so ya can see it and not have to drive all nite.

also thats a free trailer, and free veg oil in the van

[treegal1]

DGL,
I would be amazed if you ever found anyone who will agree to let you compost their manure on their land with their equipment. What would be the point? They want it gone, period.


most farmers aren't ignorant and know the value of compost, after all they grow grass to feed animals, or for crops. we ask one hog farmer what he did with his manure and the guy said that the land was not his and the barn was put there by the owner so that he had exclusive rights to the manure. so the time and materials trade off Vs. the small land needed to have said compost spot is a real value, especially when the run off cops come out to see your POO!!! most of the farmers we work with are happy to let us the space and have a constant output for there waste, we are even finding other farmers willing to buy out product after paying into our "co op".we only have 1 "must take all agreement" but they pay us top dollar as its fresh exotic poo, this goes only to the worms(separate bins also).

also think that the "UNFINISHED COMPOST" must be touched on, its a bad practice, bottom line, no other way to say it, KNOW you inputs. also "RAW MANURE" is dangerous, and that's no joke, its got to be OLD, the OLDER the better.

now the hard part, LOL the test, yes test, every where in the country or in the city there's a university, extension, expert, farmer, fert company, that can test your compost, old manure, leaf litter, worm casts. dont go nuts testing, but do some thing on some level, don't go this alone.

just a side note or an opinion, the words "CAN'T" in my book..........lets not go there, lets just say that "HOW CAN WE NOT GO THIS PATH" that's organics life and the world.

more pic as soon as this pos computer......

[DeepGreenLawn]

awesome, appreciate the pics. Your horse piles are the exact opposite of what I have found. I will try to get a pic or two. IT LITERALLY IS ALL SHAVINGS! I don't know why the want to waste so much but I am going to keep talking to others. They had a round pin full of poop and I thought it would be a lot easier to just take a wheel barrel and scoop it up off the ground.

Were your piles mainly shavings or poop before you got finished? Your pic looks like a majority of poop. You see how it has a black color to it? My piles were yellow with darker yellow spots. I promise, you would had to have dug for poop in that thing. Or is that the idea?

Jeff, I am continuously looking for good compost in my area for sale. I just have to keep on trucking, there are a few places that have it and I talked to a supplier just down the street that is not currently carrying it but when I told him how much I needed said he could have some on site pretty quick. I told him I wanted a sample first before he started bringing in the trucks, hate to have him bring it all in and then I not use it. Would make me feel bad and I like to feel good.

[DeepGreenLawn]

I just saw, thought of, something. Tree, how hard is it to take your gate off the trailer? Am I wrong in seeing a screen being hauled around with you at all times?

[treegal1]

yep it does I had the same epiphany tonight, still like my screen-er

[treegal1]

sorry its so dark, worms dont sleep.

top left screen-er top right worm casts
bottom left "the tubes"see no doors
bottom right finished compost, blended, worm casts, wood/ green waste compost, manure compost, some bone ash, char,sea weed pulp, powdered molasses

[DeepGreenLawn]

awesome, so you just knock them over when they are done or need to be turned? Turn the tubes back up and start shoveling it back in again? How do you get the air in under the pallet? Or do you just kind of direct it that way? I appreciate the pics, did you make or buy your screener?

[treegal1]

its all home made dumpster dive, there's nothing store bought, even the screws are recycled.

we use a pipe to get the air moved, thats not a pallet, that one we built a stand for 8x8 wood suport runners, with 4x6 decking, its recycled PT wood that was disposed of, its 10 feet long and 5 feet wide, with space and air for 2 tubes.
that was the pro-to type unit. now we just have a small hole (2") in the bottom of the tubes. air under goes into a diffuser, the bottom of the tube gets sealed with sand or compost(tube to floor). we have a gizmo that turns on the air with time or DO/temp. each tube holds around 4 yards of compost. 2 in the main bay and the compost bay has 25 tubes.

good compost is black/ dark!!! no smells and no nastiness, if it smells like sh*t it is chit, let it cook some more with more air. like bill says unfinished compost is not good. if you got some compost that not finished and needs a reheat, you can cheat a little with some milorganite or blood meal to get it going. just don't get any compost accelerator its a waste of cash

[44DCNF]

This is a little off topic, but I'd like to ask Treegal or Biill, can you share what is a good final screening size for worm cast, 1/8" or smaller? 1/4" for compost or do you go finer? thanks.

I use 1/4" for compost and have set up a worm bin recently and would rather sift then hand sort.

[treegal1]

wow, perfect timing, thats so on topic. are you ?psychic?

screen size is an important factor. we use several different ways to get the compost out there. size does matter, larger compost is great for use in beds and around trees, then you can mulch the top off, this does 3 things, feeds, helps the wood from taking anything away from the tree(unfinished compost= mulch),makes it look good.the smaller sizes like 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 are good for lawns and hedges. the fines, casts, tea mix, need to be real fine,3/32,1/16, and we have a nice 3/64 screen that we use for the compost for tea, look ma no bag!!!thats another time.

grading the compost is important also, whats the final use, golf courses need some of the finest purest stuff out there and it costs them. worm casts are pure little beans/nuggets of worm poo without any material other than casts, vermipost has some other materials and is clumpy and usually moist, they are 2 different grades.wood waste starts of as hammerings(5-1/2 inch chunks) or chips (1/8-2inches), after that it can be re-chipped (fine chips 1/2-dust)to any size or can be hammer milled down to wood flour. other inputs need to be handed similarly(they start of large and get small.....)then they get blended. all the inputs( some already started in the compost process) come together and are placed in the compost area ( insert your place here) to be turned and aerated and watered!! any runoff needs to be recaptured and re used, don't want to waste the good stuff.the temp is monitored, the air is maintained and the product is mixed regularly. after a while (insert your number of days here )your compost is done. its dark and smells niceeee and smooooooth, nothing malodorous. how long this takes is a real variable. we pre compost wood for a while, and it almost always is fungal dominate. this takes from 6 weeks to 1 year depending on the wood and its size, this gets some milorganite and lots of grass clippings added. turned with an excavator its just an out door pile, if your an lco your wood waste is minimal so no giant pile

[treegal1]

most small lcos could use a well managed pile to do there thing, maybe some other way if they can? then you need your inputs C:N ratio is important, so gather wisely don't just take for free something that needs storage space, tell them that you can get it later or in this time frame, the stuff you get paid for you got to take then...... after said stuff is around process it asap, don't let the green stuff turn brown in the sun chip it and get it mixed!!!mix the pile regularly and keep it moist.plan you space well so that you are not forced to put out some less that perfect compost. leave you self some space, a buffer, overflow.small chippers are cool to, it dose not have to be 1400 HP we also have several electric chippers and a troy-built vac/chip that we love, so a chipper for all occasions or don't chip and wait a while longer!! the manure gets turned at the farm, yes i know they "just-want it gone" pay me and i will take it raw and have the cash to compost it in my bays, or let me manage it my way!!! its that simple!!! so turning the poo, say sat nice drive to see a horse run tractor for a minute and take the temp. or find an old pile thats already DARK ind does not smell!!! there out there, get the phone, e lists, and all you resources together, aunt x calls says whats happening, you say looking for some poo, customer calls hello whats doing, say looking for manure feed stocks for my compost. the truth will set you free!!! and you get in return, hey this guys brothers friends cousin has this uncle who knows a guy that dated this......... call me with the #s or have them call me the number isXXX-XXX-XXXX. I need some, (insert your feed stock needs here).

got to go turn the poo, maybe some rabbit stuff out west today, going to take a fishing pole and fish my way to the poo. more pics soon

[DeepGreenLawn]

I am liking the pics... it really brings all the loose ends together.

[44DCNF]

Great stuff, thanks treegal.

[DeepGreenLawn]

so tree, when you pull up to the horse farm... what do the piles look like. Are they a majority of crap or shavings? My wife is the horse person so I am not familiar with what to look for.

[treegal1]

some are mostly wood shavings, that's the younger ones, the older they get the grayer on the surface and the darker inside.

[DeepGreenLawn]

so do you take shavings and all? or do you kind of sift through the new ones and find the good stuff on the bottom, or do you just let them sit a little longer? If you do take all the shavings that is a majority of shavings, do you just compost it all together? I am sure it is not that big of a factor with you since your operation is so large but what would you recommend for a smaller operation like myself?

[treegal1]

well, you can turn the pile and let it stay, take whats good and come back, take it and compost it further,thats up to you and your source.

and strait manure is only going to get ya through once or twice, you need other inputs.

[DeepGreenLawn]

wow, your screener looks a whole lot bigger in other pics.

[treegal1]

TL bone char/ash.TR the screen almost done with 10 yards.
BL mondays load ready to go BR the finished stuff

[treegal1]

the mouth is 24 inches and the screen is 48 inches long. thats actually the worm screen-er the other one is a lot larger, no pics at all

it gets loaded with the skid steer, we did this on your level just to illustrate

[DeepGreenLawn]

I know I will need other inputs, the manure I figured would be a base. I figured I would hit up some of the deer cleaners/coolers for their left overs. Mounting places too, we have a few in our area.

[DeepGreenLawn]

that isnt the same screener as in the other pic is it?

[treegal1]

same one its 4 feet wide and 6 feet long, the drum is a 35 gallon barrel cut in 2 nothing special.

start slow and get going with woody waste green clippings and then try some guts.

you let a pile of guts get cool or to hot and its bad, plus you got to grind them first!!!

[DeepGreenLawn]

appreciate that, how does it turn?

[treegal1]

320 x 1 gear with a motor, the large one is gas powered.

you also going to need some minerals, soft rock phosphate,iron,calcium,the usual suspects.

[DeepGreenLawn]

I take it these you actually have to buy? Can't just find the laying around can you. I know where I can get some Fe though.

[treegal1]

phosphate we buy, from north of us in central Florida, the mine is always asking why we don't get the pure stuff. the stuff we get (impure) only costs 12$ per ton so no big deal we bring in 10 tons per year. the other minerals we are getting from ground rock dust and some oyster shells. the bone char is all ca and K, sea weed helps also.the iron is from slag (tested for heavy metals) and some molasses.

[DeepGreenLawn]

OK, so you are in the perfect position to get the shells and all, but could you, if you have one, give a list of things you want in a compost and where you might could get them (i.e. oyster shells, bone char(?), sea weed) but from a place that someone like myself who is no where near the ocean might can find it?

[DeepGreenLawn]

I got a few rock quarries here near town, I wander what they are mining. Vulcan is the company sign out front.

[treegal1]

I dont reminder so much about clay soil so......its really a game of what do you have, inland, rock dust is going to be available, we have a rare mix of rock dust available to us for free, its a mix of dade county lime and crushed river rock with some granite dust, there is also a lot of rust and some sand. up there its a drive and find out scenario.the manure is going to be a good base, find a tree guy that dumps some ware and get his composted chips, dark from firewood production, lake weeds, cattails,maybe a crayfish or cat fish waste stream? cotton lints are evaluable there along with kudzu.

[DeepGreenLawn]

I plan on riding around some today, I didn't know if you had a list of what main nutrients you usually add and where you could derive them from.

Chicken litter a good manure base also? We have a ton of farms spread out and I just read an article talking about how they are having problems getting rid of the stuff.

[DeepGreenLawn]

OK, I did some research and found a post by you tree that was saying to be EXTREMELY careful with chicken litter... SO, what I was thinking was using it with worms. Wouldn't that be a lot safer? I know the handling would have to be careful but as far as a finished product.

Also, What is the big concern? Just make sure you get the temp up high enough? If it is finished composting and it has the right texture and smell it still could have the pathogens?

[treegal1]

no list that can get posted, its an old note book that's sort of a recipe book, i would not even know how to put the info into context. when you are looking for "stuff" to use there are some criteria we go by.

1, pre composted or pre decomposed.
2, travel distance and weight, alternately bulk size.
3, legality and pathogen spread, some things you need a license to compost, and at a certain size you will have to get one also, it goes by tons.
4, income to cost, its got to be worth it. some things are easy er to buy at first, or take special processes.
5, the nutrient content Vs. the time work, additional materials.
6, composting time, if it takes forever, skip it, feathers and hair are no goes, there are some other ways, thats another time
7, smell factor..............
8, is that a needed input, can it be saved for later. i give an example, bone char/ash, its stable, no smell, and it stores like buckets of salt.

if you think like this composting comes second nature

[treegal1]

oh no, stay away till you get this, chicken litter is hard and you may need a lic. if its out doors, and the wife will put you out with your chicken litter if it comes in, just ask her!!

there is also a lot of N in the litter and feathers so it take some blending and a long time at high heat( big freakin pile of stink) to compost it correctly

and no good for worms....

[DeepGreenLawn]

well, it was worth a shot

[DeepGreenLawn]

what is involved in getting a license?

[treegal1]

drop your pants and walk into the GDEP backwards and bent over???with a hand full of cash??

[DeepGreenLawn]

is that all?

[treegal1]

cagles is off stringer road,up on east cheroke theres a saw mill,just past union hill theres a fryer operation thats small and composts and another just before jonston brady. theres also a feed lot up that way.now when ya get to 20 go left and just before shady lane theres a sawyer that composts wood, not for sale to the public as its real raw.there may also be a good sourcefor water plant weeds near benny and 20.

[DeepGreenLawn]

I thought all you did was hunt up here, how you know the area so well?

[treegal1]

that large pile to the east is compost looks like 500 yards.

[DeepGreenLawn]

that massive triangle?

[treegal1]

we keep a little garden up there, if you dont get with it i am going to have a franchise there soon also.LOL no thats the pond / lagoon its the square

[DeepGreenLawn]

hey, if it means having a well run operation like yours I might be interested in being your franchisee, either way there is more than enough customers around here. I could also use a good arborist around here. I have come to not trust the one I know that is here already.

[DeepGreenLawn]

I am headed that way.

[treegal1]

so its almost 4:00 whats the word on the poo, did they have some for ya?????

[DeepGreenLawn]

Oh yeah, sorry. I went by there today on my way to Alpharetta, I already knew where they were but didn't know about the others so I will have to try them again later this week. They said that the manure was $20 a scoop and then $10 after that. I asked if was aged or not and she said it kind of varied, said they were cleaning out the bins? today so it would be pretty fresh. I didn't actually go out and look at it with my own eyes but that kind of told me that it was piled on top of over and over. If I did get it it would have to be finished. She also said it was mixed with ash?

I just left, maybe when I have a composting operation going later on but I don't think I could use it right now. I stopped by a few landscape supply places afterward right there off of 140. The first had mushroom compost, I am getting tired of hearing that, the second one I went up to the desk and asked if they had any compost. She asked what I was interested in. That caught my attention. I told her I liked her answer and asked what she had. She pointed out to a couple stacks of bags and I informed her I was looking for bulk. She said oh, well then you want the "Natures Helper". I looked at it, looked really good for a change, but I can't find any info on it. Anyone heard of it? $28 per yard. She also had castings in a bag. $8 per bag (1 cu ft.). Now, correct me if I am wrong... 3 bags would equal 1 cu. ft. That would be $24 per cu.ft correct? Wouldn't the castings be a better buy and product?

[JDUtah]

there are 27 cubic feet in a yard so your $8 / cubic foot would equal $216 per cubic yard. You decide. :)

[DeepGreenLawn]

your right, I looked at the numbers wrong. Thanks for the heads up.

[JDUtah]

:) No prob

[treegal1]

listen what ya need to do is get a happy birthday card and a target or wally world card AND 50 $ and slip that card to the old girl and then start re asking about the finished stuff, then the old boy that drives the tractor comes over ya need to slip him a cold dr pepper or dew, if he hesitates ask if he wants a brew, that place sits on a lot of crap.

and whats the meaning of un finished, does this only release them from liability. and there's got to be one GOB at the station house whos sitting on some old poo or a pile or a place in the country that you can finish some well rounded poo and chips. if not aim for some good stuff at the garden center, whats the difference any ways, its OM and dirt not a liver transplant

[Drew Gemma]

i need a grinder that will process clippings dirt leaves and brush. How can I speed this up I have a huge pile on the farm that just sits their.

[DeepGreenLawn]

I don't want to be putting down fresh manure and burn the lawns though. I thought it was bad practice to use unfinished compost. Or are you saying this stuff should be well enough composted?

I went and saw Bill's newest sales guy in Alpharetta. He had 5 acres that he was doing nothing with that I could see, just a lot of grown up weeds. I was drooling thinking it would make for a good composting site on that side of town. Maybe I can strike a deal with him later on. I saw a lot of old wood chips, good dark color, in the back too. We shall see.

[treegal1]

well i can suggest that there is several choices, everything from 1400 hp tub grinders to an electric 1 hp top fed chipper thats made of plastic, hammer mills , granulators,flail mills, troy built chipper vacs, Vermeer chippers, an antique grandolph cone crusher.

try and asses your needs and match the equipment available to the work load and pile size. 2 palm fronds get the electric grinder, 30000 yards of invasive trees, tub grinder for sure......

the smaller the particle the faster the herd works... wood flour< 400 microns, goes to compost in just days..........

[Daner]

Great thread...My farm here Is a horse farm...what I do with the horse manure Is mix It with old hay and some straw...to get the c-n ratio...It seems to make It heat up good.....I'm not sure If I'm doing It the right way...but It takes the whole summer for It to be finished

Daner

[DeepGreenLawn]

That was my next question... did I hear someone say that horse shavings take a while to finish? The farm I have gotten an agreement with to compost on site is getting more and more full of shavings. I am going to start hauling in cow manure to mix it with but was wandering if I needed to put some other C products to speed up the process. I would rather have half shavings half wood chips and it take a month than all shavings and it take a season. I think the farm would understand as well.

Also, to get the shavings down as fast as possible, as they are running out of space, would one long tall pile be fastest or multiple small piles? they want the stuff gone, they had the biggest smile on their face when they saw me today and then it turned upside down when I told them I wasn't there to take it away but rather get it going so it could be taken away.

Any thoughts?

[ICT Bill]

My suggestion is to get a set of cheerleaders that can motivate you, they could be cheering

TURN THAT PILE, TURN THAT PILE, TURN THAT PILE, TURN THAT PILE
:blob2::blob2::blob2::blob2::blob2::blob2::blob2::blob2:

[jeffinsgf]

Dude, check your contents and your math again. If your horse manure is more bedding than manure, your C is too high and your N is too low. Truck your dairy manure over to the horse site and mix the two together.

[treegal1]

dont add more wood, add more green things and more manure to get it going.

[DeepGreenLawn]

Yeah, that is what I am going to do. I am having them put all the horse stuff in one pile and I am going to start bringing in the manure and making another pile, then we are going to take the two and mix them together at the right ratios. I was just wandering if the shavings took longer to decompose than normal wood. I dug down in that one REALLY old pile and still found shavings as far as I could dig, nice and mushy but still shavings.

[Daner]

Yeah, that is what I am going to do. I am having them put all the horse stuff in one pile and I am going to start bringing in the manure and making another pile, then we are going to take the two and mix them together at the right ratios. I was just wandering if the shavings took longer to decompose than normal wood. I dug down in that one REALLY old pile and still found shavings as far as I could dig, nice and mushy but still shavings.


Deep...How long have the shavings been In the pile??

Cedar shavings take along time to break down but i dought that you will have any cedar if it came from stall bedding

Cheers....and hope you get a good finished pile soon...It takes time and practice...but you will get It right.

Daner

[DeepGreenLawn]

One pile is alright, the others are pretty new. I guess there is only one way to find out.

[ICT Bill]

The shavings are still there because the pile never got the thermophiles going. It never got hot

Hell they find instruments in rome excavations a thousand years old, if it just sits there, it will just sit there

Now get some C:N ratios going and the shavings are now fuel for the pyre, the thermophiles will take care of it quick

[treegal1]

Bill i try-ed, my next step is to drive up and show him, with as much exposure as he has brought to himself, I would really hate for every one to see him fail, and would love it if he succeeds and does well, then every one will see that this can be done, part time with little effort, and almost 2% planing!!

heck he has more views than the national mall now i think

[Daner]

Where Is the Emote with the love birds siten In a Tree...hee hee :weightlifter:

[treegal1]

Where Is the Emote with the love birds siten In a Tree...hee hee :weightlifter:

GFYS, thats out of context,


on a side note we just got a quote from a co in California, for soil?, it was 20 pallets, 1200 bags, 40 lbs each, hold on tight, the quote was for 9.50 a bag+ shipping=13000$ US for 4800lbs of dirt, sorry compost, i cant figure out how to save the audio, but if i can i will post it

[DeepGreenLawn]

I was just making sure there wasn't something fancy about shavings that kept them from breaking down further.

I just finished my first topdress, my REAL first topdress and people are lining up behind them. I think I should call the dirty jobs show and have them come out with me on the next one. Tree, you should do that, then you can show them ALL the dirty parts of the business, making compost, putting down compost, making biodiesel, worms, etc. etc.

They probably would have turned you down because they would have put 10 of their shows in one. I got one more than you, they had a FF show once, so I could throw that on top. They apparently are dieing for more shows. You should really give them a call. Or I will once I get some piles and worms going.

[treegal1]

cedar will take a long time and we get it in every load of horse gold, it happens, we use it to start the next load in the silos as we know it will take ages to break down, we have some in yards that made it past the screen, 3 years now. there are some "critters that will eat the wood, harmless bugs whose only Job in life is to decompose..

not to interested in TV this is about as out of my shell as it gets, its not that i dont like people, its just....... well i dont like people. I dont get them and dont want to, if this was not my trusty box that keeps me in the know, eh.........

[DeepGreenLawn]

Bill i try-ed, my next step is to drive up and show him, with as much exposure as he has brought to himself, I would really hate for every one to see him fail, and would love it if he succeeds and does well, then every one will see that this can be done, part time with little effort, and almost 2% planing!!

heck he has more views than the national mall now i think

OH, I see how it is, I am just your little genny pig. JK, if it means getting this done and done right I am all for it.

I picked up another customer yesterday. We are going to tear up her whole yard in the fall, mix in A LOT of compost and reseed. I can't wait. She had a REALLY big tiller just sitting there, I may ask what she wants for it and deduct if from the job if it is not to much. I am sending her to my repair guy who will give me the down low on what kind of shape it is in.

[DeepGreenLawn]

We thought about researching things and getting it under our belt first and figuring out all the organics and what to do, when to do it, how to do it... but you got to understand how I work. If I am not doing it, I won't do it. I will get some other idea in my head and start heading off in that direction. If I do start it, I don't stop thinking about it. So I started and have been dragged a long for a while, I am starting to get my footing now though.

[treegal1]

thats the point under dog, be cool I am in your corner. and if you take a look the crowd loves the new guy. the number of views tells me that this organic thing is just getting started.

and the real guinea pig was me, i did what i say i did first and most of the time my self with very little time money and power. and almost always no help from any one. ask and they will solicit, go get it done, its the hard way but it works, i am proof of that

[treegal1]

I think that a positive example of a start up organic co. is how you will best be remembered, the newb that turned deep green!!

also any new pics?

[DeepGreenLawn]

No, I am working on it, I wanted to get some pics of the mountains at the compost site I was at. I am sure I will be back again soon. It was breathtaking, everyone else sees a pile of sh*t and I saw a dream.

I left my camera at the house and the batteries are dead, I will make sure to have it with me on Fri.

[JDUtah]

Compost newbie question...

So my sources of finished compost are a little better then deep's. It is not screened too fine though. For my untrained eye maybe 1/2" maybe 1/4". Anywyas if I get to screening it and get the small wood chips out can I add grass clippings to the wood chips and restart the composting?

[treegal1]

yes or some of grandma's specal blend cow poo

[DeepGreenLawn]

That is what I plan to do with the chips that got beached on my patio from the lake I had in my backyard the other night. I am kind of happy, got most of them off the grass and on the patio meaning easier to gather them up.

[Daner]

Deep...Sawdust normally will break down quicker that chips....It may be of Interest to you to maybe find a wood shop near by and get some material from there dust collection systems ...for you to have a pile that Is ready for spreading on lawns...may take some time...longer that the 4 weeks that your looking for

Treegall...It was all just In playfulness...stay cool...And It nice to see that you have taken Deep under your wing.:waving:

[DeepGreenLawn]

I may do that, the whole reason I am able to have this property to make my compost though is that we are getting rid of the shavings for them. They are giving me everything including their time and equipment just so the shavings will disapear. If I have room I may make a seperate pile to finish quicker with stuff as you said. But they get the shavings piling up fast so I doubt that will happen. By the time I get these two piles done I am sure there will be enough shavings for new row to start.

[Daner]

Deep, another trick Is to get some freash grass clippings In and on top of the pile...maybe bag a lawn that has no 24d on it ...throw It in your trailer...and then to the pile....the clippings seem to really make the pile heat...and also will add to a insulating blanket...after Its turned

[treegal1]

the greens on top are not the greatest for finishing compost, great start not so good finish. usualy the finished pile is insulated with finished compost, especaly in the last week or two.

most horse shavings need more n to cook, horse manure is low N as far as manures go,


Nitrogen Phosphorus Potassium Calcium Magnesium, Organic matter, Moisture content

FRESH(N) (P2O5) (K2O) (Ca) (Mg)
MANURE % % % % % % %
Cattle 0.5 0.3 0.5 0.3 0.1 16.7 81.3
Sheep 0.9 0.5 0.8 0.2 0.3 30.7 64.8
Poultry 0.9 0.5 0.8 0.4 02 30.7 64.8
Horse 0.5 0.3 0.6 0.3 0.12 7.0 68.8
Swine 0.6 0.5 0.4 0.2 0.03 15.5 77.6
TREATED
DRIED MANURE % % % % % % %
Cattle 2.0 1.5 2.2 2.9 0.7 69.9 7.9
Sheep 1.9 1.4 2.9 3.3 0.8 53.9 11.4
Poultry 4.5 2.7 1.4 2.9 0.6 58.6 9.2


rabbit is off the chart 2.4 wet and 6+ N dry

[treegal1]

also thanks for the manure trinkets, and the styrofoamLOL, really thanks for the stuff, that was udderly cool

[DeepGreenLawn]

what about drying it changes everything so much?

[treegal1]

Waterrrrrrrr volume by weight???% by weight???

[DeepGreenLawn]

OH, so the same numbers are there they just go up with the loss of weight, I guess that makes since. So you would get the same numbers, either way, you just end up with a smaller pile at the end.

[treegal1]

some thing like that, less water weight, thats all. when we get a live bottom truck(100yards) delivered and the stuff is wet it can weigh almost 90,000 lbs, dry almost half

[DeepGreenLawn]

do you dry it first or go ahead and make your stuff?

[treegal1]

for the purpose of this, wet, all in one pile, there are some custom things can be done, its out of the scope of this thread

[ICT Bill]

TG sounds like you got the cagles stuff, its a long story

I do believe that DGL is trying to bribe you for more information, maybe call it a consulting fee

[DeepGreenLawn]

LOL, no bribes, just showing my appreciation in a way other than words.

I tried to dry the manure we got after that big rain, it took all day and still was wet, couldn't dry it if I wanted to. It is now souly for compost and worms.

[treegal1]

call it what you want, i got a big smile.

[treegal1]

in spanish it propina,it has many uses, tip, bribe, tax, fee, gift,,,,, its a universal thing. when i was pregnant we went to cuba, and i got some stogies for phill, every time we crossed borders some one wanted a dollar or they just ask, for the baby? and let me go. if they let me go, one cuban for them, thanks..

[DeepGreenLawn]

OK, stopped by the BIG farm yesterday to pick up some shavings to mix in to some CRAP that I picked up...

We found an OLD pile of shavings, covered with weeds, probably about 6 yards in this one spot a lone, the stuff looked GREAT, but... I was wandering what I needed to do to make sure it was finished and had the right properties. This stuff looked good to me, nice dark brown dust almost. Nothing bigger than 1/4" except for a few peices of gravel that had gotten kicked into it.

So, what kind of tests should I have done to make sure the properties are where I want them? I am going to grab a sample tomorrow and take it to the extension office to get it soil sampled real quick... anything else need to be done?

Some off subject stuff I got yesterday... cut the stupid box and weedeater mounts off my trailer and made some plywood walls to go in it. That was nice, been talking about doing that for about 3 years now. Also, talked to my extension office, a basic soil test, NPK, is $8, for OM type stuff added it is $13, not bad huh?

I am taking a few samples tomorrow along with the horse compost. Talked to my maintenance person, she is into horses, and she said they had some good compost "dust" at their place too. Said they had a ton of it. She described it just like I would have described what I found... if this stuff works out then I will be set for a few months at least... what a relief that would be!

[treegal1]

MIX it up and get some over to the extension for a basic test. after a while you will be able to get a good guess.

the new screens are going to be ready soon and we are trying to see how to market them. we are only going to build 6 a first

[treegal1]

what did you do with the charts and notes???

[DeepGreenLawn]

got a price tag on them?

[DeepGreenLawn]

I still got them... this is just really old stuff in a pile, didn't know what test I needed to do to make sure it was in the right area. I figured a basic test would have been fine. This will be my first batch, not really mine, just not coming from a "store."

It's kind of fun...

[treegal1]

fire and gardening, you got it made!:laugh:

lets start slow at the X, ask what they can do and how long it takes to get the results. then get to the $ amount and see if its what you want to spend( just my opinion, a few good 35-50$ tests are a real life saver) if you can spend that on a test every now and then, maybe ask the cobb compost's if the are doing a test can you see, or get copy's of the old test? that way you can get a feel for the average, same with the horse gold!! get a base line average and go from there.

the lowering mg thread had a 13 dollar test from

http://www.umass.edu/plsoils/soiltest/

[treegal1]

maybe do the ghetto test and lay a strip in your yard????

[treegal1]

start 1/16 inch down and increase to you get to a 1/2 inch??? about 2 foot wide and see the best results/ depth???

[DeepGreenLawn]

http://www.ugaextension.com/cherokee/anr/index.html#_UGA

this is what their site says for here... I can't get them on the phone, guess they are out to lunch.

[DeepGreenLawn]

lol, I will do that tomorrow just to see what it does, still get the tests done... it will be interesting to see.

[treegal1]

ok from the looks of there 2 microscopes.............. just, good luck and have a safe drive on your way over there, dont be shocked if it is 2 old folks and a volunteer/ intern. thats what we have here locally...........see what they can do and go from there??? maybe go into the city and talk to some GT folks??? have fun!!!

[treegal1]

this is where the action happens

http://aesl.ces.uga.edu/

[DeepGreenLawn]

Horse manure C/N 50:1

So... if this is correct then the mix in the horse piles are not that far off. Especially if you include the urine that is soaked up in the chips. So... the added N should not be too high and should speed the process pretty quickly.

[DeepGreenLawn]

This is why you should not just read parts... this was at the bottom...

"All animal manures are assumed to be dry and to contain no bedding material. If bedding material were present, C:N would be even higher and more nitrogen fertilizer would be needed."

So... bring in the N!

[treegal1]

that is where that hot sludge comes in!! just spike the pile with some of that!!! or see about harvesting duck weed or kudzo? get the N up and it will start to cook for real. dont worry about the spread of kudzo, if its black and gooey its not a thing to worry about!!! the wood bedding is like 300:1 so get a scale or something to calculate with and find the ratio of bedding to poo and the start to calculate the C:N. end of year ask about some stale alfalfa or hay???chicken manure??? If you have to turn your pile for the heat to stay low, you are really composting!!!

[DeepGreenLawn]

I just dumped a trailer load off to the side of the shavings, it was RAW! The stink about over took me and it has to smell to do that... I had to stop shoveling a time or two to get a fresh breath. It should get the pile going real nice. I wanted to devote this whole week to just composting but I had a few fungus issues come up that I have to treat in the morning. Then I will be digging my trench and having some real fun.