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Kiril
06-27-2008, 10:20 AM
Busted my Toro flow and pressure gauge (http://www.toro.com/sprinklers/irrmisc/pressuregauges/53351.html), so I pulled the gauges, recalibrate them, and put them on a custom test unit I had built years ago.

On doing some testing with the setup, noticed the flow gauge is not recording flow correctly. Did a little playing around and found out why.

Anyone want to speculate on the principles of how their flow gauge works?

Wet_Boots
06-27-2008, 10:23 AM
Busted my Toro flow and pressure gauge (http://www.toro.com/sprinklers/irrmisc/pressuregauges/53351.html), so I pulled the gauges, recalibrate them, and put them on a custom test unit I had built years ago.

On doing some testing with the setup, noticed the flow gauge is not recording flow correctly. Did a little playing around and found out why.

Anyone want to speculate on the principles of how their flow gauge works?Didn't we beat this one to death a few years back? I'll bet there's a table of flows, versus pressure and 'nozzle' size in a CRC guide.

When I replaced a frozen gpm gauge on my Toro, I took the opportunity to calibrate the replacement.

Wet_Boots
06-27-2008, 10:48 AM
Anyone want to speculate on the principles of how their flow gauge works?http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2262/calvinandhobbeslivingdeqn0.gif

Kiril
06-27-2008, 10:48 AM
Didn't we beat this one to death a few years back? I'll bet there's a table of flows, versus pressure and 'nozzle' size in a CRC guide.

Don't know, but yes that is the basic principle, now explain the hydraulics of it. :)

Wet_Boots
06-27-2008, 10:56 AM
Don't know, but yes that is the basic principle, now explain the hydraulics of it. :)

The living dead don't need to explain hydraulics. :)

Kiril
06-27-2008, 11:00 AM
The living dead don't need to explain hydraulics. :)

ROFL How true.

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-27-2008, 11:20 AM
Didn't we beat this one to death a few years back? I'll bet there's a table of flows, versus pressure and 'nozzle' size in a CRC guide.

When I replaced a frozen gpm gauge on my Toro, I took the opportunity to calibrate the replacement.

Let's beat it to death again. I'm curiously zombied about this.

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-28-2008, 09:14 AM
To The Top:)

Wet_Boots
06-28-2008, 12:51 PM
Actually, for the theoretically-inclined, there are some areas of interest. Your textbook illustrations might show a 'theoretical nozzle' as a simple hole in a tank, which has a wall thickness approaching zero.

AI Inc
06-28-2008, 12:53 PM
Well thanks for clearing that up for us.

Kiril
06-28-2008, 12:54 PM
And that has what relation to the Toro flow gauge?

Wet_Boots
06-28-2008, 12:57 PM
And that has what relation to the Toro flow gauge?Besides its being based upon the pressure upstream of a nozzle? Like the X and Y of the illustration?

Mike Leary
06-28-2008, 01:15 PM
I've had better luck with this one, the Sentry I Flow Meter.

http://www.betterwaterind.com

Wet_Boots
06-28-2008, 01:25 PM
Turbine flowmeters are best, but pricey. Besides, you really don't need accuracy to within a fraction of a percent.

(unless you're Magnet Boy) http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/197/magnetboyrt5.gif

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-28-2008, 01:50 PM
I've had better luck with this one, the Sentry I Flow Meter.

http://www.betterwaterind.com

No order forms. I wonder who sells them around here and at what cost?

AI Inc
06-28-2008, 02:15 PM
No order forms. I wonder who sells them around here and at what cost?

My local supply house carries them. I ll shoot em an email and ask them the price.

Kiril
06-29-2008, 03:34 AM
Besides its being based upon the pressure upstream of a nozzle? Like the X and Y of the illustration?

Not the same animal. How does the flow gauge (pressure gauge with a different scale) tell me how much flow will be available in a 1" pipe if it is coming out of a 3/4" hose bibb and going through a 1/4" orifice.

We all know that a hole of x size will allow y amount of water through it at a given pressure. What I am looking for is how the gauge tells me how much flow I have available in a 1" supply line when it (based on your illustration) is measuring how much water can pass through a 1/4" opening (y) given (x) amount of head.

Now I could do the math myself, but I am lazy and have no time. So maybe Boots (who seems to have large amounts of time to waste), or someone else can do the math for me. :waving:

Wet_Boots
06-29-2008, 08:42 AM
You include irrelevant data. The device could be connected to a fire hydrant, and still give the same flow readings.

CAPT Stream Rotar
06-29-2008, 09:57 AM
speaking of flow, boots could you post a link for the flow of funny.

Kiril
06-29-2008, 10:27 AM
You include irrelevant data.

A 1" service line (typical) into a residential house is irrelevant data?

Kiril
06-29-2008, 10:35 AM
I've had better luck with this one, the Sentry I Flow Meter.

http://www.betterwaterind.com

Yea, I've been looking at those types of flow meters.

http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=FL500

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-29-2008, 10:39 AM
Yea, I've been looking at those types of flow meters.

http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=FL500

Interesting. I guess you'd add an adapter to hook it up to the hose bib. Flow from a faucet means nothing to me, only the pressure.

Wet_Boots
06-29-2008, 10:47 AM
speaking of flow, boots could you post a link for the flow of funny.It's somewhere in a Toro catalog, if not Rainbird's ~ the pipe isn't quite so lossy as you might think. Odds are the fittings lose more pressure.

Wet_Boots
06-29-2008, 10:51 AM
A 1" service line (typical) into a residential house is irrelevant data?It's irrelevant, as far as what you see on the gpm gauge. That gauge is simply a 30 psi gauge, with a special scale.

Kiril
06-29-2008, 10:51 AM
Interesting. I guess you'd add an adapter to hook it up to the hose bib. Flow from a faucet means nothing to me, only the pressure.

I don't trust hose bibb flow data that much either. I just use it to get a rough idea of the worst case scenario.

Mike Leary
06-29-2008, 10:51 AM
Odds are the fittings lose more pressure.

It's not a big deal except on extreme low pressure systems. I figure a loss
of 2 psi for barbed ells, a foot of swing pipe & a Marlex ell.

Kiril
06-29-2008, 10:54 AM
It's irrelevant, as far as what you see on the gpm gauge. That gauge is simply a 30 psi gauge, with a special scale.

Quit being argumentative and dodging the question Boots. How does pushing water from a hose bibb through a 1/4" hole accurately translate into the amount of flow I have to design an irrigation system?

Wet_Boots
06-29-2008, 11:08 AM
Quit being argumentative and dodging the question Boots. How does pushing water from a hose bibb through a 1/4" hole accurately translate into the amount of flow I have to design an irrigation system?Well, now, is that the question? Wasn't before. Since the hose bib connects back to the water meter, you are seeing a flow and pressure you can use as a minimum. For a typical frame house with a basement water meter, your flow is traveling through some 1/2-inch pipe and a stop valve, as well, so your actual pressure at the meter will be more than what your F&P assembly is showing. That the difference is roughly equal to the losses in your backflow preventer and zone valves, is a happy coincidence.

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-29-2008, 11:09 AM
Quit being argumentative and dodging the question Boots. How does pushing water from a hose bibb through a 1/4" hole accurately translate into the amount of flow I have to design an irrigation system?

It doesn't in my opinion. Not that I'm being asked;)

Wet_Boots
06-29-2008, 11:33 AM
If you really wanted to be hard-core, you have a separate pressure gauge that connects to another hose bib, on a line that doesn't feed your flow meter. Use that pressure instead. Take it to the extreme, and you can plug the three measurements (static pressure, dynamic pressure, and flow) and generate flow or pressure values for your choice of dynamic pressure or flow.

Mike Leary
06-29-2008, 12:25 PM
:::::::Heads back to campground & prepares to get good & :drinkup:'d :::::::

Wet_Boots
06-29-2008, 12:32 PM
speaking of flow, boots could you post a link for the flow of funny.Still no luck. Toro gave it a fraction of a page, probably under Accessories. Maybe you can tell Kiril what flow and what length you're considering, and he can fire up his calculators, based on the 0.490 inside diameter of the tubing. :)

CAPT Stream Rotar
06-29-2008, 12:42 PM
Still no luck. Toro gave it a fraction of a page, probably under Accessories. Maybe you can tell Kiril what flow and what length you're considering, and he can fire up his calculators, based on the 0.490 inside diameter of the tubing. :)

thanks for looking boots...


I was just wondering if 100 feet of funny were to be laid, with a few T's and couples that had some heads laid off it, what the flow was..

say ohh 4 pgp's coming off a 1 inch poly line running 12 gpm @ 45 pounds.

Wet_Boots
06-29-2008, 12:53 PM
I did an added zone, using nothing but funny pipe, laid in a depression that surrounded a pool deck, but each head was on a separate line leading back to the zone valve. Weirdo technique on account of 'untouchable' new sod around the pool.

Waterit
06-29-2008, 06:59 PM
thanks for looking boots...


I was just wondering if 100 feet of funny were to be laid, with a few T's and couples that had some heads laid off it, what the flow was..

say ohh 4 pgp's coming off a 1 inch poly line running 12 gpm @ 45 pounds.

I don't think it'll work unless you come off poly line to each head.

We once tried to run (2) 5004's with 4.0 nozzles off about 60' of fpipe and they looked like old men with prostate problems - even downnozzling to 2.0's wasn't much better.

Kiril
06-29-2008, 07:37 PM
Well, now, is that the question? Wasn't before. Since the hose bib connects back to the water meter, you are seeing a flow and pressure you can use as a minimum. For a typical frame house with a basement water meter, your flow is traveling through some 1/2-inch pipe and a stop valve, as well, so your actual pressure at the meter will be more than what your F&P assembly is showing. That the difference is roughly equal to the losses in your backflow preventer and zone valves, is a happy coincidence.

Right......:cry:

Wet_Boots
06-29-2008, 07:55 PM
Right......:cry:Are those tears of joy? Have you seen the equations for deriving flows and dynamic pressures from a flow-and-pressure measurement and the static pressure?

Kiril
06-29-2008, 08:36 PM
Have you seen the equations for deriving flows and dynamic pressures from a flow-and-pressure measurement and the static pressure?

If you mean like the review of The Bernoulli Equation I just posted in the silly thread, then yes, seen and solved.

Wet_Boots
06-29-2008, 08:48 PM
If you mean like the review of The Bernoulli Equation I just posted in the silly thread, then yes, seen and solved.Oh yeah? Care to reduce eight pages of pdf files down to the one or two equations that pertain to the testing done in this thread?

Wet_Boots
06-29-2008, 09:23 PM
Oh yeah? Care to reduce eight pages of pdf files down to the one or two equations that pertain to the testing done in this thread?Today? C'mon now, use some of that book larnin' :)

Kiril
06-29-2008, 09:38 PM
Today? C'mon now, use some of that book larnin' :)

Didn't I say at the beginning of this thread I didn't have time? I have a butt load of paper work to do in my real life, that I only seem to have time to do on my "day off". You apparently have the time Boots, and now the equations, breakout your calculus book and calculator. :waving:

Wet_Boots
06-29-2008, 09:44 PM
Didn't I say at the beginning of this thread I didn't have time? I have a butt load of paper work to do in my real life, that I only seem to have time to do on my "day off". You apparently have the time Boots, and now the equations, breakout your calculus book and calculator. :waving:Excuses excuses. I already did the work before you were born. Your turn.

Kiril
06-29-2008, 10:24 PM
I already did the work before you were born.

That is unlikely Bush Beating Bootsies, unless your 60+.

Wet_Boots
06-29-2008, 10:37 PM
I got neckties older than you, you pup! :)

Kiril
06-29-2008, 10:46 PM
I got neckties older than you, you pup! :)

Now that is just downright sad. Not enough money to buy neckties more than once every 5 decades. :cry:

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-29-2008, 11:15 PM
Omg .............

Kiril
06-29-2008, 11:17 PM
Here is your ISO-5167 standard equation Bootsies for mass flow rate measurement using differential pressure since your brain cells are obviously burnt out from old age and faded neckties. (ref (http://www.arian.cl/downloads/man-arian_flow_cad_software.pdf))

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-29-2008, 11:21 PM
::::::exiting stage right::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>:cry::dizzy:

Wet_Boots
06-30-2008, 04:33 AM
Here is your ISO-5167 standard equation Bootsies for mass flow rate measurement using differential pressure since your brain cells are obviously burnt out from old age and faded neckties. (ref (http://www.arian.cl/downloads/man-arian_flow_cad_software.pdf))

Sorry, Gertrude, that don't cut it. You got the three stated quantities. Static Pressure (SP) and Dynamic Pressure (DP) and Flow (F) and from those you can derive what dynamic pressure (call it DP1) you will have at a different flow (call it F1)

Kiril
06-30-2008, 10:09 AM
You might want to loosen that faded necktie boots, I think it is robbing oxygen from your brain.

Wet_Boots
06-30-2008, 10:23 AM
(hums the Jeopardy music while awaiting a useful equation from magnet land)

Wet_Boots
06-30-2008, 01:00 PM
So, the actual interest to me, on the matter of a rotor nozzle, is how their geometry has changed over the years. It was always a tapered shaft, to focus the flow into a stream that would reach a distance.http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:KSX2DfDIY1RNtM:http://img.thefind.com/images/XQCzfuhlMY1hGoOONwNDemJRSmoeQ0ZJSYGVvn55ebleUmlmTkoqULQgv0QvOT9X393Tx9c_NMjX0S_UzdE5JDTI08_d2T_eyEC_ oCg_JTM3Xd_QxMDY0MJAzyvAnQEA%3Fr%3D2

But Hunter comes along, and their nozzles for their gear-drive rotor are all different, being little more than round or square holes in a thin wall. Of course, you look into the opening of a PGP, and you will see a set of vanes, which go a ways to guiding the flow. (put a PGP nozzle on a rotor without the vanes, and you don't get the same distance)

Waterit
06-30-2008, 02:21 PM
This thread = :wall

Wet_Boots
06-30-2008, 02:35 PM
This thread = :wallSo take a pile of photos of the next well point you have being installed.

Waterit
06-30-2008, 04:04 PM
So take a pile of photos of the next well point you have being installed.

Got one going in tomorrow, show you how we do it FLA-style.

Wet_Boots
06-30-2008, 04:17 PM
Cool! I'm especially curious about any augering equipment.

Kiril
07-01-2008, 02:23 AM
(hums the Jeopardy music while awaiting a useful equation from magnet land)

I guess the ISO standard is not good enough for you, or is it too complicated? :hammerhead:

ISO 5167 addresses measurement of fluid flow by means of pressure differential devices (orifice plates, nozzles and venturi tubes). This seems appropriate to me when considering a gauge that measures flow based on pressure differential. :waving:

But apparently you know better than ISO, who standardized the research and math you whined about earlier. So please let us all revel in your mathematical prowess and show us how wrong ISO is.

Wet_Boots
07-01-2008, 08:49 AM
I guess the ISO standard is not good enough for you, or is it too complicated? :hammerhead:

ISO 5167 addresses measurement of fluid flow by means of pressure differential devices (orifice plates, nozzles and venturi tubes). This seems appropriate to me when considering a gauge that measures flow based on pressure differential. :waving:

But apparently you know better than ISO, who standardized the research and math you whined about earlier. So please let us all revel in your mathematical prowess and show us how wrong ISO is.Awww, c'mon, dude. A problem with three given values, and you toss in something with six variables? Not useful.

Kiril
07-01-2008, 09:30 AM
Not useful.

What is not useful is your argumentative comments and obvious lack of understanding how the device we are discussing is built.

Wet_Boots
07-01-2008, 09:39 AM
What how? You take pressure/flow numbers from a nozzle chart in a CRC book, and create a custom scale for a 30 psi gauge? You don't have to know how the numbers in the chart came to be. Real-World solutions, laddie.

Kiril
07-01-2008, 09:44 AM
And yet it continues.

This is a hydraulics exercise, not an exploration of reading charts. I know the concept of "on-topic" is difficult for you to grasp, but how about reading the title of the thread and contribute something useful.

BTW, in the "real world" this is how these types of devices are built. Stick with your charts Boots, because in the end, that is your answer for everything.

Wet_Boots
07-01-2008, 09:53 AM
I don't build the devices, I use them. A knowledge of fluid mechanics is completely irrelevant to the ability to install and repair lawn sprinklers.

Kiril
07-01-2008, 09:55 AM
I don't build the devices, I use them. A knowledge of fluid mechanics is completely irrelevant to the ability to install and repair lawn sprinklers.

Well then, I guess your done posting in this thread, and based on that statement, I'm surprised you were ever an irrigator to begin with.

Wet_Boots
07-01-2008, 09:59 AM
Well then, I guess your done posting in this thread, and based on that statement, I'm surprised you were ever an irrigator to begin with.It does boil down to practical applications, like the three-variable supply problem. Hey, I got an equation with three quantities....http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/7366/magnetboyscrewballrr2.gif

Kiril
07-01-2008, 10:20 AM
It does boil down to practical applications, like the three-variable supply problem.

A knowledge of fluid mechanics is completely irrelevant to the ability to install and repair lawn sprinklers.

Clearly you do not have the knowledge necessary because your "three variables" is not enough.

You got the three stated quantities. Static Pressure (SP) and Dynamic Pressure (DP) and Flow (F)

We don't know the flow Boots, that is what we are trying to determine here.
So if your so sure this is all you need, then present a formula that solves for flow using only the variables you have listed, which means static and dynamic pressure.

BTW, you might want to dust off the books you were using before I was born and get the proper variable notations.

Wet_Boots
07-01-2008, 10:29 AM
Back up kid. You got your nifty F&P gauges. You might even have an extra pressure gauge, or other means to be reasonably certain that your measurements give the flow and pressure right at the basement water meter. Dynamic Pressure. Flow. You also measure the Static Pressure. (If you want to rename these quantities, refer to Stagnant Pressure) Three quantities, from which you can generate more flow-and-pressure (together) figures. Is it all that hard to figure out?

Kiril
07-01-2008, 11:08 AM
(hums the Jeopardy music while awaiting a useful equation from bush beating bootsies)

Wet_Boots
07-01-2008, 11:15 AM
(hums the Jeopardy music while awaiting a useful equation from bush beating bootsies)I got the equation, kiddo. Programmed it into a calculator, which is gathering dust somewhere. I'm just mildly surprised you can't figure it out, what with all that book larnin'

Kiril
07-01-2008, 11:25 AM
You need to program what you claim is a 3 variable equation (2 knowns and 1 unknown) into a calculator? :laugh: Post the equation boots or ......

Wet_Boots
07-01-2008, 11:29 AM
Hey, I don't really use it, what with interchangeable rotor nozzles these days. The equation derives from the water-supply-estimating guidelines in the back of a Safe-T-Lawn catalog. I think the procedures were repeated elsewhere, but I don't recall where.

Kiril
07-01-2008, 11:34 AM
blah blah blah, and still no equation.

Need I remind you again we are talking about the Toro flow and pressure gauge, and how IT determines flow.

Kiril
07-01-2008, 11:38 AM
Need help Boots?

Review and reduce to 3 variables.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/orifice-nozzle-venturi-d_590.html

Wet_Boots
07-01-2008, 11:41 AM
blah blah blah, and still no equation.

Need I remind you again we are talking about the Toro flow and pressure gauge, and how IT determines flow.Can't google it up, huh? Keep trying. :)

The Toro gauge displays flow, it doesn't actually measure it.

Kiril
07-01-2008, 11:41 AM
we are talking about the Toro flow and pressure gauge, and how IT determines flow.

Keep on digging that hole boots ....... and still no equation.

Begins to wonder if Boots knows anything about measuring flow rates using pressure differential devices.

Wet_Boots
07-01-2008, 11:44 AM
Try pretending the supply-line-plus-water-meter is nothing but a piece of pipe. Now maybe you can accomplish something useful with the three values (SP DP F)

Kiril
07-01-2008, 11:48 AM
Try addressing the topic of the post (I know this is difficult for you to do).

..... and yet still no equation from Boots. Hole just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

Wet_Boots
07-01-2008, 12:03 PM
Sorry, dude, topic's been hijacked, since the 'science' behind the flow gauge is all too obvious, and already spelled out in detail. Still no idea how to employ those three measurements to derive a range of operating conditions?

Michael J. Donovan
07-01-2008, 12:14 PM
no sense in continuing on with the back and forth...I think we can all see your points :)