Customer says "No one else has been on their lawn PERIOD".... Twelve weeks later....

[Midstate Lawncare]

Yesterday, I was called out to a lawn I had killed off spots of fescue in a predominantly bluegrass lawn and seeded(10 days after application of roundup). I seeded with a BG mix ot three varieties (I don't remember them exactly) The seed is in 3-5 leaf stage now....twelve weeks later. I seeded this lawn on 4-4-08...this was 6-26-08.... Is this because of a pre-emergent application or the relatiely cool 1st half of 2008.... This customer is not happy and I don't blame him. He also claims that "no one has been on their lawn period". The lawn is literally devoid of crabgrass and really any other weed for that matter. What do you think? What caused this?

[TPendagast]

ummmmmmm ha. The problem is slow germination....no weeds...hmmm well a pre-emergent would either prevent germination (if the wrong one was used) or wear off after 30 days if the right one was used, but would cause slower germination.

What has your soil temp been, any idea? lots of cold days?

[Hissing Cobra]

LACK OF FOOD! With new seed, you have to fertilize it with a Starter Fertilizer at the time of planting, followed by additional applications of Starter Fertilizer every 4 weeks until it's full and thick. Once it is indeed full and thick, applications can then be applied at 6 week intervals. Watering has to be done daily to prevent the seed from drying out (ideally, 3 times per day, each section for 15 minutes each time). Once it's full and thick, the watering schedule has to be changed as well. From that point on, watering should be done DEEPLY but INFREQUENTLY to allow deeper, stronger, roots to develop. Also, if a Crabgrass Pre-emergent control was used, that'll surely stunt the seed that you've planted.

[PHS]

He also claims that "no one has been on their lawn period". The lawn is literally devoid of crabgrass and really any other weed for that matter.

Can't help you with the seed germination part but if things aren't adding up right it's a possibility they sprayed something and didn't understand that it could be related to this problem i.e. They read "weed preventer" on the side of the package and don't realize it can also inhibit desireable grass seed or they sprayed a post-em since you were there.

It's also a possibility that he's lying to you. That's happened to me on quite a few occasions.

[Mscotrid]

Cool spring could have delayed germination. Under ideal condition Bluegrass can take upto 21 days to germinate, let alone the aditonal time to establish. You mentioned Pre-emergent, was their a application earlier in the spring? I would go to a weather source for your area and review temps for that period. You might have had a hard frost and that would help explain the growth issue. We had a extremely cold spring in the midwest and we tend to forget how cold weather can effect certain aspects of our buisiness.

[Midstate Lawncare]

Thanks too all who answered. And to clarify...
Temps have been "cool" but we haven't had a frost since march believe it or not.
Starter fertilizer was applied at the time of seeding. 6-24-24 at 4 lbs per 1k ft2.
The customer waters religiously and I mean religiously! even when it is raining!
Lying or not he is an older guy, and will never fess up!
soil temps have been normal...I haven't checked in a while

[Hissing Cobra]

Starter fertilizer was applied at the time of seeding. 6-24-24 at 4 lbs per 1k

If the grass hasn't been fertilized since it was planted, then it's been 12 weeks since it's had food. This lawn is well past the point of growing because it hasn't been fertilized. As I stated above, new seed needs repeat applications of Starter Fertilizer at 4 week intervals until it's full and thick. Once it's full and thick, the fertilizer applications can be backed off to 6 week intervals and the watering must be changed from 2-3 times per day, to once every 3 days but for longer periods to allow for root development.

[turf hokie]

I agree with Cobra in the need for feeding. What I dont agree with is the application of starter fertilizer every 4 weeks. Even when I worked at Lesco I was not a fan of the 18-24-12. Especially at seeding. The fert is essentially gone by the time bluegrass germinates and needs the food if you are using the standard starter fert @ 35% scu.

Soil test prior to planting. Around here our phos in 90% of the test that I take is off the charts.

I usually recommend no fert at time of planting, a 24-0-11 or equivalent 2-3 weeks AFTER planting and again 5-6 weeks after the first feeding. Then follow your normal program.

I also have heard 'nothing has been done to my lawn all year' quite a few times as the scotts spreader and half empty bag of weednfeed sit next to the open garage door.

Just my 2 cents.

[RigglePLC]

So what is the problem? Perfectly normal. Kentucky bluegrass takes time to germinate (especially if soil is cool). It takes time to establish a thick turf. Sod farms harvest KBG at about 18 months after planting the seed. If he wanted quick results you should have used ryegrass--or better still--sod. If he wants quick results and lower quality--overseed with rye. Save yourself the hassle and use sod.

[shovelracer]

I also have heard 'nothing has been done to my lawn all year' quite a few times as the scotts spreader and half empty bag of weednfeed sit next to the open garage door.

This is so true its not even funny. At least one of my installs each year gets killed off by the homeowner. Usually cause they think they know more,but dont want to do the laborious task of the seed install.

This year a few customers wanted it extra green so they bumped it up a few clicks. Well needless to say they all have large fert burn patches along the curb. Not sure why it is always along the curb. I even had one guy call me over and blamed my equipment for dropping gas on his lawn causing spots. I looked at his very definite old bag of scotts fert job with burning and striping and politely asked him if he had done any applications. He said no. So I asked him if the application he put down was an old bag he had left over from previous years. He said he didnt put anything down yet. So I asked him again if when he put the application down the material was clumpy or sticky. He knew I knew so he said no. Then we walked over to the burned patches and pulled away he dying grass to find an excess of Scotts with Halts (his personal favorite) and on one an actual chunk a little smaller than a ping pong ball. Still in denial he told me I needed to fix it. I told him we couldnt and he would have to wait till the fall. Then he fired me a month later cause we did a very beautiful wavy striping pattern on the 7 houses we do on that street. His wife felt we where drunk, and he felt he could do a better job with his cheapo tractor. So now when he mows he goes as far as he needs to into the neighbors lawn to turn around and keep the lines straight on his yard. Problem is that he mows 2.5" and we mow 3.5"+. So as you can imagine the 20' deep half circles on both sides really get me going.

Sorry to jack up the thread, but just remember that most homeowners are idiots, dont know squat about proper care, think they know everything, think you know nothing, assume they can do it better themselves but dont want to, will lie through their teeth to get anything, expect something for nothing, and think that Scotts products are the end all be all due to their visual results from the N & Fe.

[Midstate Lawncare]

The soil is healthy enough for excellent growth of the existing turf, so not fertilizing since the time of planting is not a problem. Before you get upset h.c. the soil in my area is good... very good.
To riggle plc- 12 weeks for germination? by cool I mean normal... not in the mid to upper 80's until two weeks ago. It should have germinated in the beginning of may imo.
I also agree that most customers have no idea what they are talking about shovelracer.
Thanks again to everyone

[Hissing Cobra]

I'm not going to get upset. The ingredient that seed needs to grow is Phoshorus. Yes, the soil has an overabundance of it but it is not available to the seed for some reason. In our area, the soil tests also come back with an overabundance of Phosphorus as well, yet the seed will not grow. There's a reason why 19-9-19 Starter Fertilizer is added by Hydroseeders when they apply the seed. I sell a lot of seed and fertilizer and the customers who re-fertilize at 4 week intervals all have beautiful lawns, while the customers who only did the initial application do not.

[FdLLawnMan]

I'm not going to get upset. The ingredient that seed needs to grow is Phoshorus. Yes, the soil has an overabundance of it but it is not available to the seed for some reason. In our area, the soil tests also come back with an overabundance of Phosphorus as well, yet the seed will not grow. There's a reason why 19-9-19 Starter Fertilizer is added by Hydroseeders when they apply the seed. I sell a lot of seed and fertilizer and the customers who re-fertilize at 4 week intervals all have beautiful lawns, while the customers who only did the initial application do not.

I couldn't agree more. University of Wisconsin showed that by not applying starter fertilizer at the time of seeding you have about half the germination you would normally have by applying the fertilizer. It is because the new seedling roots are so immature the phosphorous needs to be readily available. Also, KBG needs 21 days of soil temperatures over 50 degrees to germinate, and then if a pre-emergent was applied you could have pretty poor results.

[rcreech]

I agree with Cobra in the need for feeding. What I dont agree with is the application of starter fertilizer every 4 weeks. Even when I worked at Lesco I was not a fan of the 18-24-12. Especially at seeding. The fert is essentially gone by the time bluegrass germinates and needs the food if you are using the standard starter fert @ 35% scu.

Soil test prior to planting. Around here our phos in 90% of the test that I take is off the charts.

I usually recommend no fert at time of planting, a 24-0-11 or equivalent 2-3 weeks AFTER planting and again 5-6 weeks after the first feeding. Then follow your normal program.

I also have heard 'nothing has been done to my lawn all year' quite a few times as the scotts spreader and half empty bag of weednfeed sit next to the open garage door.

Just my 2 cents.

Turf Hokie,

I have to disagree with a few things you state:

You state that fert isn't needed 4 weeks after seeding. I like to use a starter 4 weeks after planting as it is just a little too early for a high N product. To me this is the most important feeding as you want to encourage growth and lawn health. If you don't fert at 4-5 weeks then the new seedlings seem like they just sit around.

I always apply 18-24-12 at seeding, then again at 4-5 weeks and then after mowed a few times hit it with a 30% N with 50% SCU. Lawns rock really quick with this fert schedule.

You also state that applying a fert at seeding it is gone by the time the time the grass needs it. You may lose some N, but that is why I use a 50% SCU and as far as the P (which is the most important nutrient for seedling germination) it is not mobile nutrient therefore none or very little will be lost.

Why would you apply a "starter" with no P? Technically that is not a stater to me. P is the nutrient I care about most when seeding although N is still very important.

[turf hokie]

Turf Hokie,

I have to disagree with a few things you state:

You state that fert isn't needed 4 weeks after seeding. I like to use a starter 4 weeks after planting as it is just a little too early for a high N product. To me this is the most important feeding as you want to encourage growth and lawn health. If you don't fert at 4-5 weeks then the new seedlings seem like they just sit around.

I always apply 18-24-12 at seeding, then again at 4-5 weeks and then after mowed a few times hit it with a 30% N with 50% SCU. Lawns rock really quick with this fert schedule.

You also state that applying a fert at seeding it is gone by the time the time the grass needs it. You may lose some N, but that is why I use a 50% SCU and as far as the P (which is the most important nutrient for seedling germination) it is not mobile nutrient therefore none or very little will be lost.

Why would you apply a "starter" with no P? Technically that is not a stater to me. P is the nutrient I care about most when seeding although N is still very important.


That is fine to disagree with me, I know most will on this point. You are right that the P is not soil mobile. But the P is usually already in the soil around here. That is why I suggested a soil test. Around here a lime app would probably free up as much P as applying a starter fert and cost less.

I also stated to apply a fert 2-3 weeks after seeding, then again in 4 weeks and then follow the normal schedule. I disagreed with the plan of at planting and again every 4 weeks. I believe the timing of my schedule is better for the plant.

I also did not intend for a 24-0-11 to be a "starter" fert. I intend to feed the plant that is now growing and has what would normally be a minimum of 1 cut on it.

The schedule that I suggested has worked very well for me in my area and that is why I recommended this plan of action.

[rcreech]

That is fine to disagree with me, I know most will on this point. You are right that the P is not soil mobile. But the P is usually already in the soil around here. That is why I suggested a soil test. Around here a lime app would probably free up as much P as applying a starter fert and cost less.

I also stated to apply a fert 2-3 weeks after seeding, then again in 4 weeks and then follow the normal schedule. I disagreed with the plan of at planting and again every 4 weeks. I believe the timing of my schedule is better for the plant.

I also did not intend for a 24-0-11 to be a "starter" fert. I intend to feed the plant that is now growing and has what would normally be a minimum of 1 cut on it.

The schedule that I suggested has worked very well for me in my area and that is why I recommended this plan of action.


That makes total sense to me! Sorry for the questions, but it just wasn't making sense to me. Does now!

Thanks!

RC

[Smallaxe]

I couldn't agree more. University of Wisconsin showed that by not applying starter fertilizer at the time of seeding you have about half the germination you would normally have by applying the fertilizer. It is because the new seedling roots are so immature the phosphorous needs to be readily available. Also, KBG needs 21 days of soil temperatures over 50 degrees to germinate, and then if a pre-emergent was applied you could have pretty poor results.

Did the study use good compost to cover seed in their study?!?
I never suffered only 50% germination and never put down starter fert in the soil.
Do you have a link to that study?

[ALC-GregH]

what is the best way to seed new top soil? Do you just use a spreader and spread a lair on the soil, cover it with straw and water or should you rake the seeds into the soil first? What would you recommend using to get it started? The existing dirt is pretty much all clay and stones so I was going to re-grade the entire yard with new top soil and start over.

[ICT Bill]

A practice that used to be used quite often and seems to have gone out of fashion is pregerminating seed before application. This is especially good for KBG that may take 15 to 30 days to germinate.

You can do it with fecues and ryes as well, it is kind of startling to the customer to have grass growing just a couple days after appication. It takes all kinds of environmental factors out of the loop like heavy rains, drought, etc. The seed has itself planted very quickly, it really does give great results

and much fewer call backs which saves you money in not having to visit the site again

[turf hokie]

That makes total sense to me! Sorry for the questions, but it just wasn't making sense to me. Does now!

Thanks!

RC


Rodney
No problem with the questions. It was my fault for not being a little more specific with the reasons behind why I was giving those recommendations.

[turf hokie]

As far as actually getting the seed to grow on fresh topsoil. I usually broadcast a 3/4 rate and use the back side of a plastic leaf rake to get good seed/soil contact. Then I broadcast the remaining 1/4 rate over the top.

I would use seed starter mulch and not straw for 2 reasons. 1 the straw tends to blow away. 2 If it does not blow away straw will need to be raked out eventually.

[americanlawn]

Best time to seed Kentucky bluegrass in Illinois is mid to late August. Seeding it in the spring rarely works, as bluegrass is tricky. The customer should plan ahead sooner rather than waiting 'til spring. The only time we seed sunny areas is mid August -- early September. It always works.

[daveyo]

This is so true its not even funny. At least one of my installs each year gets killed off by the homeowner. Usually cause they think they know more,but dont want to do the laborious task of the seed install.

This year a few customers wanted it extra green so they bumped it up a few clicks. Well needless to say they all have large fert burn patches along the curb. Not sure why it is always along the curb. I even had one guy call me over and blamed my equipment for dropping gas on his lawn causing spots. I looked at his very definite old bag of scotts fert job with burning and striping and politely asked him if he had done any applications. He said no. So I asked him if the application he put down was an old bag he had left over from previous years. He said he didnt put anything down yet. So I asked him again if when he put the application down the material was clumpy or sticky. He knew I knew so he said no. Then we walked over to the burned patches and pulled away he dying grass to find an excess of Scotts with Halts (his personal favorite) and on one an actual chunk a little smaller than a ping pong ball. Still in denial he told me I needed to fix it. I told him we couldnt and he would have to wait till the fall. Then he fired me a month later cause we did a very beautiful wavy striping pattern on the 7 houses we do on that street. His wife felt we where drunk, and he felt he could do a better job with his cheapo tractor. So now when he mows he goes as far as he needs to into the neighbors lawn to turn around and keep the lines straight on his yard. Problem is that he mows 2.5" and we mow 3.5"+. So as you can imagine the 20' deep half circles on both sides really get me going.

Sorry to jack up the thread, but just remember that most homeowners are idiots, dont know squat about proper care, think they know everything, think you know nothing, assume they can do it better themselves but dont want to, will lie through their teeth to get anything, expect something for nothing, and think that Scotts products are the end all be all due to their visual results from the N & Fe.

Holy cow, did I just post that thread or was it you?:dizzy:

[gorknoids]

"Nothing has been done to my yard all year". I live about a driver and a 3-wood from a tributary of the Chesapeake Bay, and spend as much time on or in it as I can. When I hear about how the "Carefully manicured lawns" are ruining this great body of water, I get pissed. It's Henry and Harriet Homeowner who are dumping every chemical in the book (Oddly enough, without bothering to READ that book!) on their lawns with no regard for the effectiveness or the effects of their actions. I'm still smelling the 2,4-d from 150 lbs of granular weed/feed that one customer put down on 1400 square feet of lawn last summer.....with a drop spreader. The burn marks are still evident, as are the 20" piles of congealed fert/chemicals.

I agree with Cobra in the need for feeding. What I dont agree with is the application of starter fertilizer every 4 weeks. Even when I worked at Lesco I was not a fan of the 18-24-12. Especially at seeding. The fert is essentially gone by the time bluegrass germinates and needs the food if you are using the standard starter fert @ 35% scu.

Soil test prior to planting. Around here our phos in 90% of the test that I take is off the charts.

I usually recommend no fert at time of planting, a 24-0-11 or equivalent 2-3 weeks AFTER planting and again 5-6 weeks after the first feeding. Then follow your normal program.

I also have heard 'nothing has been done to my lawn all year' quite a few times as the scotts spreader and half empty bag of weednfeed sit next to the open garage door.

Just my 2 cents.