Don't believe the Diesel Hype

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

I own and operate a 2008 Toyota Tundra double cab, 5.7 liter I force V-8 engine, 6 speed transmission.

Good friend of mine owns and operates a 2003 Dodge Ram quad cab, 5.9 liter Cummin diesel, automatic transmission.

Both of us tow 7x16 foot enclosed trailers. Both of us tow in the same area on the same roads. Both of us run the airconditioners while towing and both of us try not to take off from stops like it is a drag race but we do like to keep up with traffic.

I am averaging ( all towing the enclosed trailer ) 10.5-11.5 MPG

He is averaging 8.5-10.5 MPG under the same conditions.

Unloaded and just driving the truck around we get about the same city and highway mpg.




Another friend of mine has a 2005 Chevy four door, loaded and with the Duramax/ allision combo. He doesn't tow with it, just drives it around as a daily driver. He averages around 15 mpg. My truck under the same type of driving he is doing would match or exceed his mpg. On cheaper fuel too no less.


You may know people that brag about the great mpg their diesels get, but bottom line is to get this great mpg you have to drive 50 mph in the slow lane and leave traffic lights no faster than a kid on a 10 speed would. Not realistic real world driving.

I believe the tread has reversed in recent years... Used to be in the late 1980's and 1990's, diesels did get much better milage over gas trucks. Now I believe the tread has reversed, and the diesels are far worse than they used to be and the gassers are better than ever before now.

As always, I am sure there will be someone who will post and say that no way will a gas truck get better mpg pulling some ridiculously heavy load... True, I agree. Over 8-10 thousand pounds of weight I would say a diesel starts to hold a advantage over gas, but under that amount I believe you can do better on gasoline and save all kinds of money in the process.

[heather lawn sp]

Only one question. . .

How long have you run diesel pick-up trucks?

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

Only one question. . .

How long have you run diesel pick-up trucks?

3 years. A 1999 Dodge ram 2wd with Cummins diesel and 5 speed stick, and a 2000 Dodge ram 4wd with cummins diesel and a automatic. Bought both brand new.

[GravelyGuy]

Ron,

I have noticed that if I keep it under 65 MPH on county roads I can get all the way up to 20-23 MPG if you baby it. No load obviously.

I have around 13,000 miles on mine now and it seems to be slightly better on gas and noticeably more power.

Have you had any trouble with your truck yet?

[heather lawn sp]

3 years. A 1999 Dodge ram 2wd with Cummins diesel and 5 speed stick, and a 2000 Dodge ram 4wd with cummins diesel and a automatic. Bought both brand new.

Did you find those old diesels better thean the new ones (or did you bother to keep the mileage from back then)?

[TXNSLighting]

that 03 cummins should get much better than that. my dmax pulling my 16 ft cargo with about 4k in it gets 13-14 at 70 mph. 03 was a bad year for the cummins i think. My 05 never got any less than 11 towing my enclosed. ( going as fast as i wanted) 80+

[Lynden-Jeff]

Im going to call B.S. My chipped 6.0 F250 will get 15 MPG easily pulling our 20 ft enclosed. Not to mention with the 500+ HP it is fun to drive around unloaded and will get around 18-20 without pulling. I love how people come on here and think they know everything!

[bobcat_ron]

A Dodge is still heavier than a Toyota, that's the difference, engine RPM's at highway speeds are a factor. Dodge's are just plain heavy trucks.

[WH401]

"He is averaging 8.5-10.5 MPG under the same conditions."
I highly doubt he's getting that low of an MPG. 03 was probably the highest mpg year for the common rail engines as they were only starting out at the high 200 - low 300 hp range and didn't have the 3rd injection event. I can tow a 30 ft. house trailer through the mountains of New England with an 02 Dodge 2500 and still get about 12 - 13 mpg, and that's not going the speed limit either.

"I believe the tread has reversed in recent years... Used to be in the late 1980's and 1990's, diesels did get much better milage over gas trucks. Now I believe the tread has reversed, and the diesels are far worse than they used to be and the gassers are better than ever before now."
I agree with you that 10+ years ago, diesel got much better mpg then there gas counter parts. Yes they don't do as good today because of the emissions equipment but they still do better then there gas counter parts. I traded an 04 Dodge 1500 that would get no better than 13 mpg no matter how you drove it for a 06 3500 DRW w/4.10's that I get 16 in regularly.

You may know people that brag about the great mpg their diesels get, but bottom line is to get this great mpg you have to drive 50 mph in the slow lane and leave traffic lights no faster than a kid on a 10 speed would. Not realistic real world driving.
We all get different mpg figures just based on how we drive, but 16 mpg in my 3500 is going 10 - 15 over the speed limit in any lane I please. My 92' 250 can easily get 20 mpg with the same kind of driving.

[jefftb]

Chalk another one here for thinking something is askew here with this one.

My 2003 Ford F350 LWB 7.3L CC tows between 10,000-12,000 lbs. a lot and I get at least 12 MPG while doing so. I get slightly better than that with the 7x14 enclosed trailer at 5-6,000 lbs.

Either the dodge is running in 3rd all the time or the math is deficient in the calculations.

The old adage about diesel's is true....Unloaded they get at least the same as a really good gasser (or more). Loaded they get better mileage than a gasser. I have three trucks to prove it, all with different engines. The diesel wins every time in the fuel efficiency department overall.

[POPO4995]

Cant we all just agree....:laugh:When it comes down to it, we all drive trucks. Fuel mileage doesnt matter! But if anyone cares, my Duramax averaged 15mpg on the last tank. Thats towing, city, and highway driving all combined.

[Lynden-Jeff]

I think some ones just trying to compensate for their foreign light duty truck :laugh:

[jefftb]

Yep. We drive trucks. I had two clients last week ask me what kind of mileage my F350 gets in light of the expensive diesel and how did I deal with it.

My response? It really does not matter what kind of mileage this truck gets or any of my others. I need them to perform their job, its business, its a cost, and we get over and on with it. If we let it bother us or affect our business day to day decisions I might not finish your job.

That set him back-the realization that his job or someone else's might not ever get completed.

[4 seasons lawn&land]

christ, what a dumb **** to make this post! Does'nt this get old? Diesels get better mileage ALWAYS and I have a 07 2500 gasser! Just face it already, they are better if you have an extra 5-7 grand. Oh, and you cant compare an 08 Toilet to an 02 cummins and whoever said you are getting 22mpg on "country roads", you really are a dumbass!

[BrandonV]

I agree with you that 10+ years ago, diesel got much better mpg then there gas counter parts. Yes they don't do as good today because of the emissions equipment but they still do better then there gas counter parts. I traded an 04 Dodge 1500 that would get no better than 13 mpg no matter how you drove it for a 06 3500 DRW w/4.10's that I get 16 in regularly.

i agree w/ you, but I blame the horse power mindset for why diesel mpg has gone down hill. we had a 1992 4x4 f350 no turbo, automatic, duallie, 4 door and it averaged 23mpg. why don't the diesel of today compare you ask? because a diesel truck now can almost beat a mustang off the line. THAT has ruined the value aspect of diesel trucks, at least the pickups. I have a mitfuso that gets stellar milage for its size and my new LCF is averaging 15 mpg, which for it's size and the guy who's driving it ain't bad either. the dodge sprinters are getting ~23mpg so it can be done. Hopefully the current fuel crisis will put some sense back into buyers (or eliminate the daily driver market) so that ford, gm and dodge will be able to offer lower hp models in their pickups, they'll still move the same load just not as quick.

[TXNSLighting]

i agree w/ you, but I blame the horse power mindset for why diesel mpg has gone down hill. we had a 1992 4x4 f350 no turbo, automatic, duallie, 4 door and it averaged 23mpg. why don't the diesel of today compare you ask? because a diesel truck now can almost beat a mustang off the line. THAT has ruined the value aspect of diesel trucks, at least the pickups. I have a mitfuso that gets stellar milage for its size and my new LCF is averaging 15 mpg, which for it's size and the guy who's driving it ain't bad either. the dodge sprinters are getting ~23mpg so it can be done. Hopefully the current fuel crisis will put some sense back into buyers (or eliminate the daily driver market) so that ford, gm and dodge will be able to offer lower hp models in their pickups, they'll still move the same load just not as quick.

I would love to see dodge, gm and ford put out the exact engines they have now just with 230 hp, and 700 lb ft of tq. perfect! they would all get high 20's in the mpg depart.

[coolluv]

I had a 94 Dodge 360 v8 that got 10 mpg towing my trailer. My 07 Chevy Duramax gets 13.5 pulling the same trailer. Diesels get 30% better fuel mileage and thats a fact. Both trucks have 26 gallon tanks. At $4.00 a gal for gas it would cost me $104 to fill up my Dodge. At $4.80 for diesel it would cost me $125 to fill up my Chevy. But I can go 90 more miles on a tank of fuel with the diesel. If I wanted to go 90 more miles with my Dodge I would have to put in 9 more gallons of gas at a cost of $36. So to go the same amount of miles with the Dodge it would cost me $140.

So It cost me $15 less to tow my trailer the same amount of miles. Now around town with no trailer my Dodge would get 13mpg. Around town with my Chevy no trailer I get 16. Out on the HWY my dodge would get 16 mpg. Out on the HWY my Chevy gets 20 mpg.

Now I know these are not gigantic differences but it does cost me less to drive my Chevy. Not to mention the fact that my Dodge was a regular cab short box, and the Chevy is a crew cab short box. Way more room inside and just a bigger truck overall. Not to mention that it is much heavier and way more heavy duty. I know the initial cost is more but if I fill up every week and save $15, 15*52=$780. $780*10 years is $ 7800 which is about the difference in price from a gas truck and a diesel truck.

So in 10 years you would break even. I had my last truck for 14 years before I traded it on this one so I tend to keep my trucks for a long time. My Dodge would struggle to pull my trailer on hills. Don't get me wrong it would do it but it was no fun in highway traffic either. On really hot days my truck temp would get up there and I would always keep my eye on it. Especially when I ran the A/C. I have a sloped area that I park my trailer and have to back up into and when it was in the high 90's sometimes my temp would just about get into the red and the trans temp light would come on.

Anyway I don't have to worry about running my A/C or backing up into my parking area on really hot days anymore. My Duramax is a beast. I also got the diesel because I plan on getting a bigger trailer 20 footer instead of the 16 I have now. And I would like to get a 14000# dump trailer. What I'm saying is I plan on growing and my truck will handle that growth with ease. Lets not forget the "but it cost more to maintain" argument. It actually cost about the same or less to maintain a diesel. The new diesels monitor your fuel filters and oil filters and you can go 7000 to 10000 between oil changes depending on your driving. It is all monitored by the computer system.

Look this is my first diesel and I always wanted one and I'm so glad I purchased one. The difference is like night and day. I think the guys that put down diesels haven't owned a new diesel, or are jealous of those that due own one.

Just my opinion,

Dave...

[punt66]

Had a 98 dodge 2500 diesel. Pulled like a beast but was not worth the extra cost. My 91 dodge 2500 360 pulled just as good at the weights i was towing and cost less overall even with the less fuel mileage. I didnt have to plug it in in the winter(was expensive) and change fuel filters in the cold. Insurance was less as was property taxes. Diesels donot pay for themselves if they are not absolutely needed. If your hauling very heavy trailers on a regular basis then diesel is a plus or a must. But for the average small LCO its a waste of money.

[02DURAMAX]

I own and operate a 2008 Toyota Tundra double cab, 5.7 liter I force V-8 engine, 6 speed transmission.

Good friend of mine owns and operates a 2003 Dodge Ram quad cab, 5.9 liter Cummin diesel, automatic transmission.

Both of us tow 7x16 foot enclosed trailers. Both of us tow in the same area on the same roads. Both of us run the airconditioners while towing and both of us try not to take off from stops like it is a drag race but we do like to keep up with traffic.

I am averaging ( all towing the enclosed trailer ) 10.5-11.5 MPG

He is averaging 8.5-10.5 MPG under the same conditions.

Unloaded and just driving the truck around we get about the same city and highway mpg.




Another friend of mine has a 2005 Chevy four door, loaded and with the Duramax/ allision combo. He doesn't tow with it, just drives it around as a daily driver. He averages around 15 mpg. My truck under the same type of driving he is doing would match or exceed his mpg. On cheaper fuel too no less.


You may know people that brag about the great mpg their diesels get, but bottom line is to get this great mpg you have to drive 50 mph in the slow lane and leave traffic lights no faster than a kid on a 10 speed would. Not realistic real world driving.

I believe the tread has reversed in recent years... Used to be in the late 1980's and 1990's, diesels did get much better milage over gas trucks. Now I believe the tread has reversed, and the diesels are far worse than they used to be and the gassers are better than ever before now.

As always, I am sure there will be someone who will post and say that no way will a gas truck get better mpg pulling some ridiculously heavy load... True, I agree. Over 8-10 thousand pounds of weight I would say a diesel starts to hold a advantage over gas, but under that amount I believe you can do better on gasoline and save all kinds of money in the process.

This is some Good BULLSH!T!!!!!!:laugh::laugh::hammerhead:...I get 13 Towing with my D-Max.....and up to 20 Just driving around!,,

[J&R Landscaping]

I would love to see dodge, gm and ford put out the exact engines they have now just with 230 hp, and 700 lb ft of tq. perfect! they would all get high 20's in the mpg depart.

They would be marketing diesels for working purposes. A very worthwhile purpose IMO. I like the speed on my 06 PSD but it's not nessecary. Its a waste. Give me the fuel economy and fuel economy and RELIABILITY and I'm a happy and profitable guy!

[SuperDuty335]

I own 3 Ford diesels right now (Powerstroke, 7.3IDI, 6.9IDI, my other Powerstroke was stolen!) and won't ever buy another vehicle with a gas engine:nono: I could take my Excursion and haul a Toyota pickup AND its trailer and still get 15+ mpg: Been there and done that, but with a Chevrolet Silverado instead of the Yoyo.:weightlifter:

[OhioMowerGuy]

Let me see your toyota keep up with my diesel plowing snow.

[GravelyNut]

i agree w/ you, but I blame the horse power mindset for why diesel mpg has gone down hill. we had a 1992 4x4 f350 no turbo, automatic, duallie, 4 door and it averaged 23mpg. why don't the diesel of today compare you ask? because a diesel truck now can almost beat a mustang off the line. THAT has ruined the value aspect of diesel trucks, at least the pickups. I have a mitfuso that gets stellar milage for its size and my new LCF is averaging 15 mpg, which for it's size and the guy who's driving it ain't bad either. the dodge sprinters are getting ~23mpg so it can be done. Hopefully the current fuel crisis will put some sense back into buyers (or eliminate the daily driver market) so that ford, gm and dodge will be able to offer lower hp models in their pickups, they'll still move the same load just not as quick.

Another major reason your old truck got better mileage compared to today's trucks is that it isn't a smog motor. Same thing happened when cars first got cats put on them. 1975 was not a good year for fuel economy/HP.

As far as cutting HP and still moving the same loads, tell that to a trucker on I-77 N out of Mt Airy, NC. Some don't make it over the hill. You can only go so low in the gears before you run out of power.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

Ron,

I have noticed that if I keep it under 65 MPH on county roads I can get all the way up to 20-23 MPG if you baby it. No load obviously.

I have around 13,000 miles on mine now and it seems to be slightly better on gas and noticeably more power.

Have you had any trouble with your truck yet? no problems yet, and the Tundra has been the absolute best vehicle I have ever owned hands down. It amazes me that the dealers aren't sold out of them, for someone to buy a Chevy or Ford - or any full size 1/2 ton truck - over the tundra is crazy!

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

Did you find those old diesels better thean the new ones (or did you bother to keep the mileage from back then)?

I kept the milage back then - Diesel was around 1.60$ a gallon then and that was high when we had been so used to fuel at or lower than a dollar a gallon.

Yes the older Diesels did get better MPG. Much better MPG than the newest Diesels are getting.

[nosparkplugs]

Here' the current specs 2008 Toyota Tundra is a 1/2 ton truck capable of towing 10,300lbs 5.7L 32v V8 GVWR 7,100lbs when properly equipped? The 2008 Doge 3/4 ton 6.7L 24v Cummins Turbo diesel GVWR 9,000lbs capable of towing 13,450lbs when properly equipped.

We all tow different weight to get an accurate calculation you need to know at least 2 figures GVWR, and GTWR. To just throw a generic GCVWR & MPG for these trucks is ignorant. Yes the Tundra is lighter 7,100lbs gasburner vs 9,000lb diesel so it can tow more in it's class, it's buy no mean enough truck for some of us thats would be a fair observation. I would say the Cummins diesel gets darn good MPG considering the weight of the truck. Apples to oranges :hammerhead:

I would say their is more media "hype" surround the Toyota Tundra than any other truck, since the big three are watching Toyota, and have yet to enter the Heavy duty 3/4 ton truck segment. So until then? these threads serve no purpose except to "stir the pot".

I invested in Amsoil fully synthetic engine oil, and the Dual-By pass filtration system eliminating the "expensive diesel oil changes", the only maintenance I have is 2 fuel filters a year & diesel fuel; which is still only .40 cents more when you shop around for deals.

Gasoline is 135,000BTU per gallon, diesel is 147,000BTU per gallon, result? more bang/burn for the buck or the extra .40 cents per gallon. everything we purchase is hauled on or buy diesel trucks

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

Im going to call B.S. My chipped 6.0 F250 will get 15 MPG easily pulling our 20 ft enclosed. Not to mention with the 500+ HP it is fun to drive around unloaded and will get around 18-20 without pulling. I love how people come on here and think they know everything!


You call BS? You want to call the guy and ask him what his Dodge gets MPG wise? He has two Dodge/ Cummins trucks and is mighty proud of them, I am sure he will be truthful about what his MPG is. I could take a picture of his fuel milage readout on the overhead console and post it here but you would probably call BS on that too, so believe it or not... I don't care. I have nothing to gain by telling lies

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

A Dodge is still heavier than a Toyota, that's the difference, engine RPM's at highway speeds are a factor. Dodge's are just plain heavy trucks.

Sure it is, and his Dodge, or my other friend with the Duramax can pull trailers my Toyota would not be able to pull... so it is not a total Apples to Apples comparison. My point in the thread is to inform people that you should do some homework before running out to buy a Diesel truck because they think they will be saving money on fuel. Because if they buy a newer model Diesel truck and use it to tow relatively light trailers, chances are they will get worse milage, burning more expensive fuel than they would have if they bought a lighter and less expensive gas truck.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

christ, what a dumb **** to make this post! Does'nt this get old? Diesels get better mileage ALWAYS and I have a 07 2500 gasser! Just face it already, they are better if you have an extra 5-7 grand. Oh, and you cant compare an 08 Toilet to an 02 cummins and whoever said you are getting 22mpg on "country roads", you really are a dumbass!

You must be the dumbass here pal, you obviously can't even read. It was a Toyota Tundra verses a friend 2003 Dodge.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

i agree w/ you, but I blame the horse power mindset for why diesel mpg has gone down hill. we had a 1992 4x4 f350 no turbo, automatic, duallie, 4 door and it averaged 23mpg. why don't the diesel of today compare you ask? because a diesel truck now can almost beat a mustang off the line. THAT has ruined the value aspect of diesel trucks, at least the pickups. I have a mitfuso that gets stellar milage for its size and my new LCF is averaging 15 mpg, which for it's size and the guy who's driving it ain't bad either. the dodge sprinters are getting ~23mpg so it can be done. Hopefully the current fuel crisis will put some sense back into buyers (or eliminate the daily driver market) so that ford, gm and dodge will be able to offer lower hp models in their pickups, they'll still move the same load just not as quick.

I agree 100 percent. More power equals two things... more sales and lower fuel milage. The loser in the horsepower race is the end user, where we get crappy gas milage and more complexity and more expensive drivetrains to deal with.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

I had a 94 Dodge 360 v8 that got 10 mpg towing my trailer. My 07 Chevy Duramax gets 13.5 pulling the same trailer. Diesels get 30% better fuel mileage and thats a fact. Both trucks have 26 gallon tanks. At $4.00 a gal for gas it would cost me $104 to fill up my Dodge. At $4.80 for diesel it would cost me $125 to fill up my Chevy. But I can go 90 more miles on a tank of fuel with the diesel. If I wanted to go 90 more miles with my Dodge I would have to put in 9 more gallons of gas at a cost of $36. So to go the same amount of miles with the Dodge it would cost me $140.

So It cost me $15 less to tow my trailer the same amount of miles. Now around town with no trailer my Dodge would get 13mpg. Around town with my Chevy no trailer I get 16. Out on the HWY my dodge would get 16 mpg. Out on the HWY my Chevy gets 20 mpg.

Now I know these are not gigantic differences but it does cost me less to drive my Chevy. Not to mention the fact that my Dodge was a regular cab short box, and the Chevy is a crew cab short box. Way more room inside and just a bigger truck overall. Not to mention that it is much heavier and way more heavy duty. I know the initial cost is more but if I fill up every week and save $15, 15*52=$780. $780*10 years is $ 7800 which is about the difference in price from a gas truck and a diesel truck.

So in 10 years you would break even. I had my last truck for 14 years before I traded it on this one so I tend to keep my trucks for a long time. My Dodge would struggle to pull my trailer on hills. Don't get me wrong it would do it but it was no fun in highway traffic either. On really hot days my truck temp would get up there and I would always keep my eye on it. Especially when I ran the A/C. I have a sloped area that I park my trailer and have to back up into and when it was in the high 90's sometimes my temp would just about get into the red and the trans temp light would come on.

Anyway I don't have to worry about running my A/C or backing up into my parking area on really hot days anymore. My Duramax is a beast. I also got the diesel because I plan on getting a bigger trailer 20 footer instead of the 16 I have now. And I would like to get a 14000# dump trailer. What I'm saying is I plan on growing and my truck will handle that growth with ease. Lets not forget the "but it cost more to maintain" argument. It actually cost about the same or less to maintain a diesel. The new diesels monitor your fuel filters and oil filters and you can go 7000 to 10000 between oil changes depending on your driving. It is all monitored by the computer system.

Look this is my first diesel and I always wanted one and I'm so glad I purchased one. The difference is like night and day. I think the guys that put down diesels haven't owned a new diesel, or are jealous of those that due own one.

Just my opinion,

Dave...

I think the 1990's Dodge gas trucks were about the worst you could get for good gas milage. I think you would close that gap between the gasser and the Duramax if you compaired a late model Chevy gasser with the 5.3 V8 to your Duramax.

And trust me, I could go out tomorrow and buy any truck I wanted, and I am in no way jealous of the guys running around in their diesel trucks, especially when I am filling up my gasser with 3.82$ per gallon gasoline and looking over at the sign showing diesel at 4.79$ a gallon.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

Let me see your toyota keep up with my diesel plowing snow.


You should go to the Toyota dealer and drive a new Tundra with the 5.7 engine, you will likely be quite surprised at how much power it has.

It has over 400 pounds of Torque, that is almost exactly the same amount as my 2000 Dodge Cummins Ram had. Torque is what pulls trailers or pushes snow.

[Mr. Vern]

The bottom line here is that this thread started with a completely unscientific and statistically invalid comparison. In other words it was apples and oranges.
To compare one make and year of truck with a certain type of engine to a completely different make and year truck with a different type of engine for the sake of determining the better engine is a worthless exercise.
If one is trying to determine which vehicle better fits their needs, then there might be some very limited value in this approach, but for the sake of the original premise, it is a worthless exercise.

[Lynden-Jeff]

You call BS? You want to call the guy and ask him what his Dodge gets MPG wise? He has two Dodge/ Cummins trucks and is mighty proud of them, I am sure he will be truthful about what his MPG is. I could take a picture of his fuel milage readout on the overhead console and post it here but you would probably call BS on that too, so believe it or not... I don't care. I have nothing to gain by telling lies

Do I want to call him? lol. What do you think I have time make calls to confirm useless threads like this one? Maybe your friend has a led foot or maybe his turbos shot. MANY reasons why he may get lower MPG. Doesn't mean you should come here and spread BULLSH*T about diesels, because mine will run your piece of crap yota in to the ground any day, both in towing and plowing. If your that worried about fuel mileage, your probably just a low ballin fool anyways because I make plenty to fill my tank.

[nosparkplugs]

You should go to the Toyota dealer and drive a new Tundra with the 5.7 engine, you will likely be quite surprised at how much power it has.

It has over 400 pounds of Torque, that is almost exactly the same amount as my 2000 Dodge Cummins Ram had. Torque is what pulls trailers or pushes snow.

Tundra 5.7L 32V V8
401ft/lbs @ 3,600RPM's

2nd generation Cummins 5.9L 24V standard HP Turbo diesel
460ft/lbs @ 1,4000 RPM's

Tundra over 400ft/lbs??? by 1 ft/lb:weightlifter:

It's not even fair to compare these two engines in the same class?

That Tundra 401 Ft/lbs not their when you step on it? if you mash it to get to 3,600RPM's you got it. Your Cummins could produce more torque at an idle.

Keep exagerating the specs all you want the Tundra's gasburner I force 32V 5.7L Aluminum "pot metal" V8, Vs The Legendary iron block & head Cummins 5.9L 24V Turbo diesel 350,000 miles engine vs the unknown Tundra I force V8.

Your lucky you got a good one

Toyota said it has determined that a flaw in the casting of a still-undetermined number of Tundra camshafts -- made for Toyota's Alabama engine plant by an outside supplier -- prompted the engine failures.

http://www.lemonauto.com/complaints/toyota/toyota_tundra.htm

The Japs are stubborn from their early design of the Aluminum Jap zero, a lighter faster far superior fighter aircraft, yet the slower heavier/ steel/aluminum more reliable Gruman Wildcat won the pacific war. This still holds true with the Tundra Japs are hung up on light vehicles, with aluminum block & head, not the best design for a heavy duty truck. I'll take my heavy Dodge 2500 CTD, and will still suck the paint off every Tundra with a heavier trailer going up a hill maybe burning more fuel? I love that Turbo sound creeping up on the Tundra's.

[02DURAMAX]

You should go to the Toyota dealer and drive a new Tundra with the 5.7 engine, you will likely be quite surprised at how much power it has.

It has over 400 pounds of Torque, that is almost exactly the same amount as my 2000 Dodge Cummins Ram had. Torque is what pulls trailers or pushes snow.

And mine has 250ftlbs more stock....also they are alot better let me see you toyota go more than 200,000 Miles Towing everyday...Im pretty sure it wont make it past 75,000Miles....and im talking 10,500 Pounds not 2,000..

[02DURAMAX]

Tundra 5.7L 32V V8
401ft/lbs @ 3,600RPM's

2nd generation Cummins 5.9L 24V standard HP Turbo diesel
460ft/lbs @ 1,4000 RPM's

Tundra over 400ft/lbs??? by 1 ft/lb:weightlifter:

It's not even fair to compare these two engines in the same class?

That Tundra 401 Ft/lbs not their when you step on it? if you mash it to get to 3,600RPM's you got it. Your Cummins could produce more torque at an idle.

Keep exagerating the specs all you want the Tundra's gasburner I force 32V 5.7L Aluminum "pot metal" V8, Vs The Legendary iron block & head Cummins 5.9L 24V Turbo diesel 350,000 miles engine vs the unknown Tundra I force V8.

Your lucky you got a good one

Toyota said it has determined that a flaw in the casting of a still-undetermined number of Tundra camshafts -- made for Toyota's Alabama engine plant by an outside supplier -- prompted the engine failures.

http://www.lemonauto.com/complaints/toyota/toyota_tundra.htm

The Japs are stubborn from their early design of the Aluminum Jap zero, a lighter faster far superior fighter aircraft, yet the slower heavier/ steel/aluminum more reliable Gruman Wildcat won the pacific war. This still holds true with the Tundra Japs are hung up on light vehicles, with aluminum block & head, not the best design for a heavy duty truck. I'll take my heavy Dodge 2500 CTD, and will still suck the paint off every Tundra with a heavier trailer going up a hill maybe burning more fuel? I love that Turbo sound creeping up on the Tundra's.

:usflag::usflag::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

[MileHigh]

You should go to the Toyota dealer and drive a new Tundra with the 5.7 engine, you will likely be quite surprised at how much power it has.

It has over 400 pounds of Torque, that is almost exactly the same amount as my 2000 Dodge Cummins Ram had. Torque is what pulls trailers or pushes snow.

Yea....but ya can't put a big plow on that Yota..THERE FRONT ENDS ARE WIMPY.

[mag360]

The auto trans behind the '03 cummins is a fuel waster until you hit 45mph and the torque converter locks up. Running around town with an enclosed trailer is one of the best ways to observe low mpg in that truck. By comparison; the older (weaker) 47re with 4.10's will lock up at 25mph with od off. This makes a considerable difference---we have a '99 and an '03.

[mower&more1986]

The auto trans behind the '03 cummins is a fuel waster until you hit 45mph and the torque converter locks up. Running around town with an enclosed trailer is one of the best ways to observe low mpg in that truck. By comparison; the older (weaker) 47re with 4.10's will lock up at 25mph with od off. This makes a considerable difference---we have a '99 and an '03.
that explains why mine didnt get great mileage with my 99 dodge ram cummins diesel because deliving papers most of my driving is between 25mph and 30mph kinda felt bad for my custmers too the truck might of alittle loud sound i took it real easy.
I'd still like to find a older chevrolet suburban and put a Cummins in it probably the 4bt i think. Ive heard some people getting high mpgs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV903Ai7Uhg

[AJ Lawnscapes]

My 1985 F250 6.9L diesel blowing smoke gets 13-15MPG towing, and 15-19 if unloaded. I enjoy it.

People seem to forget why we buy Diesels, they're bullet proof, and will be around 20 years longer than your gasser.

But yes, the extra 73cents I would be saving having a gasser would add up.

Abe

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

There are a few smart guys who have replied in this thread. And then there are the Redneck goobers who have shown their ignorance.

I am not making a apples to apples comparison between the Toyota and the Dodge, or between the I force 5.7 V-8 and the Cummins Turbo Diesel, Or the horsepower and Torque ratings and curves of the two engines. A apples to apples comparison was not my intention.

What I am trying to get across here is that there is this ignorant and often wrong assumption that if a person wants a truck that will pull his trailer nicely and get good gas milage, than he or she has to have one of the big three's Diesel 3/4 ton or larger truck and that is the only choice.

I used the example of my self and my friend, both working the same basic route, and pulling the same size trailers of nearly the same weight. I drive a new gas truck, he drive a fairly new diesel. I get equal or better MPG. According to most of the typical diesel HYPE, he should be getting better MPG.

Then I also list as a example my friend who doesn't tow squat, and his truck getting around 15 mpg mixed city/ highway driving.

I have tons of other friends with newer diesels and none of them are getting better milage than the newer 1/2 ton gas trucks when just driven, no towing, or towing relatively light trailers.

I make this claim and I have guys say I am a liar. Why would I lie? I have nothing to gain by any of this. It doesn't make me money, it doesn't get me laid, it doesn't make me the hero, and I am not jealous of your truck and I don't need someone to pat me on the back to make me feel good about what kind of truck I drive. I posted what I posted to hopefully save someone else with less truck experience and who may not have the time to do enough research from making a mistake and buying a diesel when they might have been better off with a gasser.



Everytime diesel verses gas comes up, it seems some jackhole wants to talk about how a gas truck won't plow snow. Look.... where does my profile page show that I live? Do you think plowing snow is important in Charlotte NC? I would say that only about 1/8th or possibly even less of the people here live in areas where plowing snow would even be in the cards at all, and even then I don't think it is a automatic that every lawn service operator also must put a snow plow on the front of all his trucks and push snow. So in other words, if you think you need a diesel to plow snow and you plow snow, well go buy a diesel! But I believe that the bulk of the people in this business don't plow snow and a guy in Florida should not base the purchase of a diesel truck on the fact that a gasser won't plow snow!


For the guy who takes my torque rating posts so seriously, my Tundra has 401 pounds of torque. My last Cummins Dodge had 420. 19 pounds of torque is not a huge deal. Sure the diesel had most of it's torque by 1000-1500 rpms but the gasser is meant to rev higher and the Toyota with the 6 speed auto never seems to be breathless when you need extra power to pull a hill or pass someone on the highway. But bottom line is I know the diesels usually have more torque and at a lower rpm, which is usually best for towing, I was just making the point that my gas truck has torque that is nearly equal to what was the diesel standard of just a few years ago.


Another diesel fan states And mine has 250ftlbs more stock....also they are alot better let me see you toyota go more than 200,000 Miles Towing everyday...Im pretty sure it wont make it past 75,000Miles....and im talking 10,500 Pounds not 2,000.. Dude, I don't tow 10,500 pounds everyday! How many lawn services need to tow that much anyway? Around here the average rig is a 16 foot trailer and two mowers, a few jugs of gas and a rack with a few trimmers and a blower or two. Were talking 4000-7000 pounds tops. If you pull skid steers around, or backhoes, or a 30 foot enclosed trailer with 8 mowers inside, etc... then you should be buying a diesel and using a diesel. If my trailer towing needs were a daily need to tow 10,500 pounds I would own a diesel.

Some else made mention that their truck will do 350 thousand miles and mine won't. Let me tell you, I only know one person personally, who is driving a truck with that many miles, and yes it is a diesel, a late 90's/ early 2000's Ford F-350 srw, with the Powerstroke diesel and a stick shift transmission. I rode in it with him one day to go get lunch and yeap the truck had alot of miles and it still ran, but the rest of the truck was falling apart.... Seat wore out, windows wouldn't open, A/C broke, squeeks and rattles badly, clunky noises from the front end, etc... Will a diesel last longer than a gasser? Probably so, but the rest of the truck will likely be wore out by that time anyway. And bottomline is most people these days buy a new truck every couple of years, and never put anything close to 300+ thousand miles on them.

[newdude]

k, but i guarantee that your tundra puts out way less of everything at the wheels. its 401 at the crank. Not at your wheels. an 08 dmax i think puts 502 ft lbs at the wheel when they claim 660. heck, even a cummins puts more power to the wheels than your tundra could. the i-force is a pig anyway. friend of mine tows just as much as you do and got anywhere between 5-8 mpg. and he doesn't over work his right foot. another buddy of mine has a brand new cummins 6.7 quad cab and while towing my other friend's trailer got anywhere from 12-15 mpg, and he is a lead foot sometimes. also, why the heck are you even comparing a 1/2 ton to a 3/4 ton in the first place????

[punt66]

There are a few smart guys who have replied in this thread. And then there are the Redneck goobers who have shown their ignorance.

I am not making a apples to apples comparison between the Toyota and the Dodge, or between the I force 5.7 V-8 and the Cummins Turbo Diesel, Or the horsepower and Torque ratings and curves of the two engines. A apples to apples comparison was not my intention.

What I am trying to get across here is that there is this ignorant and often wrong assumption that if a person wants a truck that will pull his trailer nicely and get good gas milage, than he or she has to have one of the big three's Diesel 3/4 ton or larger truck and that is the only choice.

I used the example of my self and my friend, both working the same basic route, and pulling the same size trailers of nearly the same weight. I drive a new gas truck, he drive a fairly new diesel. I get equal or better MPG. According to most of the typical diesel HYPE, he should be getting better MPG.

Then I also list as a example my friend who doesn't tow squat, and his truck getting around 15 mpg mixed city/ highway driving.

I have tons of other friends with newer diesels and none of them are getting better milage than the newer 1/2 ton gas trucks when just driven, no towing, or towing relatively light trailers.

I make this claim and I have guys say I am a liar. Why would I lie? I have nothing to gain by any of this. It doesn't make me money, it doesn't get me laid, it doesn't make me the hero, and I am not jealous of your truck and I don't need someone to pat me on the back to make me feel good about what kind of truck I drive. I posted what I posted to hopefully save someone else with less truck experience and who may not have the time to do enough research from making a mistake and buying a diesel when they might have been better off with a gasser.



Everytime diesel verses gas comes up, it seems some jackhole wants to talk about how a gas truck won't plow snow. Look.... where does my profile page show that I live? Do you think plowing snow is important in Charlotte NC? I would say that only about 1/8th or possibly even less of the people here live in areas where plowing snow would even be in the cards at all, and even then I don't think it is a automatic that every lawn service operator also must put a snow plow on the front of all his trucks and push snow. So in other words, if you think you need a diesel to plow snow and you plow snow, well go buy a diesel! But I believe that the bulk of the people in this business don't plow snow and a guy in Florida should not base the purchase of a diesel truck on the fact that a gasser won't plow snow!


For the guy who takes my torque rating posts so seriously, my Tundra has 401 pounds of torque. My last Cummins Dodge had 420. 19 pounds of torque is not a huge deal. Sure the diesel had most of it's torque by 1000-1500 rpms but the gasser is meant to rev higher and the Toyota with the 6 speed auto never seems to be breathless when you need extra power to pull a hill or pass someone on the highway. But bottom line is I know the diesels usually have more torque and at a lower rpm, which is usually best for towing, I was just making the point that my gas truck has torque that is nearly equal to what was the diesel standard of just a few years ago.


Another diesel fan states Dude, I don't tow 10,500 pounds everyday! How many lawn services need to tow that much anyway? Around here the average rig is a 16 foot trailer and two mowers, a few jugs of gas and a rack with a few trimmers and a blower or two. Were talking 4000-7000 pounds tops. If you pull skid steers around, or backhoes, or a 30 foot enclosed trailer with 8 mowers inside, etc... then you should be buying a diesel and using a diesel. If my trailer towing needs were a daily need to tow 10,500 pounds I would own a diesel.

Some else made mention that their truck will do 350 thousand miles and mine won't. Let me tell you, I only know one person personally, who is driving a truck with that many miles, and yes it is a diesel, a late 90's/ early 2000's Ford F-350 srw, with the Powerstroke diesel and a stick shift transmission. I rode in it with him one day to go get lunch and yeap the truck had alot of miles and it still ran, but the rest of the truck was falling apart.... Seat wore out, windows wouldn't open, A/C broke, squeeks and rattles badly, clunky noises from the front end, etc... Will a diesel last longer than a gasser? Probably so, but the rest of the truck will likely be wore out by that time anyway. And bottomline is most people these days buy a new truck every couple of years, and never put anything close to 300+ thousand miles on them.



I agree with you 100%. By the way i plow snow with 3 trucks, all gassers. I tow a 26' enclosed race trailer with 2600lb car inside with a 91 dodge 250 with the 360. Guess what? I still own it and work it 17 years later. I too am sick of all the juvenile name callers in here as well. Instead of open minds and learning from each other they just look for a fight. I suppose its lack of sophistication, intellegince, upbringing or maybe inbreeding. The fact of the matter is its ruining lawnsite and i will probably soon sign off for good. I should be spending my spare time more wisely anyhow.

[lawnboy dan]

i dont see how any one could buy anything else but a tundra after looking at one and driving one

[punt66]

i dont see how any one could buy anything else but a tundra after looking at one and driving one



well thats a bit of a stretch. I wouldnt buy one myself i try my best to stick with american made on larger purchases. But to each his own. I hear great things about the titan.

[stroker51]

Ok, lets compare 3/4 tons to 3/4 tons, which is at the very least what most of us around my area run. My buddy bought a brand new 08 F250 4x4 super cab with a 5.4 and auto tranny late last fall. The absolute best mileage he has recorded is 10.5. Another guy I know has an 08 Crew cab 4x4 6.4 diesel, auto, etc. 15-16 mpg average. Now my 01 F250 crew cab short bed 4x4 7.3 auto, consistently 18-19mpg empty, don't pull much more than my boat with it. My 1996 250 that I brag a lot about on here, has 213K miles gets 13+pulling my mowing trailer (18' flatbed, mid z, stander, one or two w/b's, handhelds etc.) My truck weighs about 7500 lbs without a trailer, not sure what exactly the trailer loaded weighs. I have every intention of running my 96 over 300k, sure it will need some front end work and body work, but the A/C still blows cold, truck always does what I ask. I know 4 other trucks that have over 300k, 3 Fords and one dodge, and none of them are "falling apart". The one with 400K is a 1991 F250 7.3 IDI turbo. All of them pull a lot of weight, a lot of the time. I have a builder friend that bought a tundra identical to yours, traded his F350 powerstroke, and while he thinks the truck is built better, he's not happy with his mileage for that much smaller of a truck, and has to borrow another friends diesel truck or use his 80's 1 ton chevy to pull his 12' dump or skid steer. If all you do is mow, it may be an option, but doesn't everybody want to expand at some point? Even with fuel like it is, with the diesel you can make bio-fuel=$.70 or so a gallon, we are in the process still of getting up the system.

[4 seasons lawn&land]

You must be the dumbass here pal, you obviously can't even read. It was a Toyota Tundra verses a friend 2003 Dodge.



Are you serious? A year? Your going to come out with that over a YEAR differance? Wow, your even more pathetic than I thought. :rolleyes:

[4 seasons lawn&land]

no problems yet, and the Tundra has been the absolute best vehicle I have ever owned hands down. It amazes me that the dealers aren't sold out of them, for someone to buy a Chevy or Ford - or any full size 1/2 ton truck - over the tundra is crazy!



That should tell you something...:laugh:

[mybowtie]

i dont see how any one could buy anything else but a tundra after looking at one and driving one

You gotta be kidding me.........YOU DONT REALLY BELIVE THAT!!! Do you???
ANYONE common. A tundra couldn't handle a heavy 8' + plow without eating up front end parts. I need a 3/4 ton. So why would I want or need a 1/2 that wouldnt handle the work, and cost me a ton of money for upkeep because its lite duty? I tow a little over 4k 3-4 days a week. I had a 1/2 ton pickup. It just wasnt cutting it. The Silverado 2500 hd gasser(nephew has a 07) gets 11-12 mpg(or less) towing my trailer. My 2500 dmax gets 14-15 towing. Never been on a long highway trip, so I cant give mpg for that. It cost me the same $$ with the gasser to go the same miles with the dmax.

I live near a small dirt track. I see the Toys towing there open car trailers and they look like there doing a wheelie. Countless 3/4 tons look like the dont even have a trailer on them.

Do I think EVERYONE needs a 3/4 ton diesel truck....no. Are the tundras nice trucks?? yes... If a 1/2 ton fits YOUR needs fine....it dont fit mine....:usflag:

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

4 seasons... Do you follow the news? Ford, GM and Dodge all are closing plants that make trucks cause they can't sell them. The local Toyota dealers are selling them, it is just surprising that they aren't completely sold out. Anyone with a open mind and the time to go test drive one would certainly see why they are a notch above the big 3's half ton trucks.

I am a Chevy guy personally, but have also owned several Dodges. Matter of fact I was ready to buy a new Silverado a few months ago, but thought that instead of blindly buying yet another Chevy just based on brand loyalty ( it would have been my 5th new Chevy truck since 1996 had I bought it ) I should at least go look at the new Rams and new Tundras and the Titan. The Tundra is so far ahead of the others it isn't even funny and I am so glad I spent the extra few hours shopping before signing the contract at the Chevy dealer.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

And to be clear, I am not comparing a Tundra to a 3/4 ton truck. I am simply comparing powertrains. Gas verses Diesel. It is only the stupidity of the executives at the big 3 that there isn't a way to get a diesel in a 1/2 american truck. If there was the truck verses truck comparison could be fair and equal. But it isn't right now, and the thing that prompted me to start the thread was seeing my friends fuel computer at 8.8 MPG this weekend, and knowing that we both tow the same size and type trailer, on the same roads, and I have not gotten less than 10.5 mpg yet with my gasser. He pays 850$ a month for the payment, higher taxes, higher insurance rates, has more expensive maintance costs, and he is filling his tank with fuel that is nearly a dollar more per gallon. Sure his truck will out tow mine and out plow it, maybe outlive it too, but for both of our purposes a 1/2 ton truck would work fine, he bought the diesel cause it was supposed to save him money, it hasn't.

[Lynden-Jeff]

4 seasons... Do you follow the news? Ford, GM and Dodge all are closing plants that make trucks cause they can't sell them. The local Toyota dealers are selling them, it is just surprising that they aren't completely sold out. Anyone with a open mind and the time to go test drive one would certainly see why they are a notch above the big 3's half ton trucks.

I am a Chevy guy personally, but have also owned several Dodges. Matter of fact I was ready to buy a new Silverado a few months ago, but thought that instead of blindly buying yet another Chevy just based on brand loyalty ( it would have been my 5th new Chevy truck since 1996 had I bought it ) I should at least go look at the new Rams and new Tundras and the Titan. The Tundra is so far ahead of the others it isn't even funny and I am so glad I spent the extra few hours shopping before signing the contract at the Chevy dealer.

Put on your glasses and read, a tundra can't plow snow PERIOD. They don't even make the mounts for anything other then home owner plows. Not to mention they won't tow a large skid steer, or a fully loaded dump trailer. They are LIGHT DUTY. If your worried about the gas mileage go buy your Tundra, but for people who work hard, they dont cut it. This is not a comparison, because the diesel is for TOWING LARGE LOADS that the Tundra will not do. So your comparison is pointless! End of story.

[punt66]

And to be clear, I am not comparing a Tundra to a 3/4 ton truck. I am simply comparing powertrains. Gas verses Diesel. It is only the stupidity of the executives at the big 3 that there isn't a way to get a diesel in a 1/2 american truck. If there was the truck verses truck comparison could be fair and equal. But it isn't right now, and the thing that prompted me to start the thread was seeing my friends fuel computer at 8.8 MPG this weekend, and knowing that we both tow the same size and type trailer, on the same roads, and I have not gotten less than 10.5 mpg yet with my gasser. He pays 850$ a month for the payment, higher taxes, higher insurance rates, has more expensive maintance costs, and he is filling his tank with fuel that is nearly a dollar more per gallon. Sure his truck will out tow mine and out plow it, maybe outlive it too, but for both of our purposes a 1/2 ton truck would work fine, he bought the diesel cause it was supposed to save him money, it hasn't.

I would suggest giving up you wont change minds. haha

[WH401]

And to be clear, I am not comparing a Tundra to a 3/4 ton truck. I am simply comparing powertrains. Gas verses Diesel. It is only the stupidity of the executives at the big 3 that there isn't a way to get a diesel in a 1/2 american truck. If there was the truck verses truck comparison could be fair and equal. But it isn't right now, and the thing that prompted me to start the thread was seeing my friends fuel computer at 8.8 MPG this weekend, and knowing that we both tow the same size and type trailer, on the same roads, and I have not gotten less than 10.5 mpg yet with my gasser. He pays 850$ a month for the payment, higher taxes, higher insurance rates, has more expensive maintance costs, and he is filling his tank with fuel that is nearly a dollar more per gallon. Sure his truck will out tow mine and out plow it, maybe outlive it too, but for both of our purposes a 1/2 ton truck would work fine, he bought the diesel cause it was supposed to save him money, it hasn't.

Well there's the problem right there, don't ever go by what the computer says, there's isn't a factory overhead from any manufacturer that could get the mpg right.

[mybowtie]

4 seasons... Do you follow the news? Ford, GM and Dodge all are closing plants that make trucks cause they can't sell them. The local Toyota dealers are selling them, it is just surprising that they aren't completely sold out. Anyone with a open mind and the time to go test drive one would certainly see why they are a notch above the big 3's half ton trucks.

I am a Chevy guy personally, but have also owned several Dodges. Matter of fact I was ready to buy a new Silverado a few months ago, but thought that instead of blindly buying yet another Chevy just based on brand loyalty ( it would have been my 5th new Chevy truck since 1996 had I bought it ) I should at least go look at the new Rams and new Tundras and the Titan. The Tundra is so far ahead of the others it isn't even funny and I am so glad I spent the extra few hours shopping before signing the contract at the Chevy dealer.

Just seen on the news tonight that Toyota was down like 32%(not sure on exact%) in truck sales
as was the big three. Dodge was the hardest hit with chevy and ford taking less of a hit then toyota. This was on the National news tonight. ALL truck sales are hurting. Toy dealer around here has a ton of tundras..Few tacomas.
I belive GM's new 1/2 ton diesel( anound mid 400's hp) is comming out late 09.
Will be interesting to see what kind of mpg's this rig gets.

[Lynden-Jeff]

Just seen on the news tonight that Toyota was down like 32%(not sure on exact%) in truck sales
as was the big three. Dodge was the hardest hit with chevy and ford taking less of a hit then toyota. This was on the National news tonight. ALL truck sales are hurting. Toy dealer around here has a ton of tundras..Few tacomas.
I belive GM's new 1/2 ton diesel( anound mid 400's hp) is comming out late 09.
Will be interesting to see what kind of mpg's this rig gets.

Ford will have a half ton diesel in 2010 aswell. And ill belive 400 HP when I see it, that is a little farfetched.

[mike lane lawn care]

i took a 2008 F-350 crew cab king ranch with the 6.4 to SC, it got about 17.5 MPG with the AC on, and doing 70-75

[mybowtie]

Sorry I ment mid 4's for tq....not hp. Belive its in the low 3's for hp...Its a 4.5 and if it sees good mpg's it should do well for the guys that dont need a 3/4 ton...:usflag:

[4 seasons lawn&land]

And to be clear, I am not comparing a Tundra to a 3/4 ton truck. I am simply comparing powertrains. Gas verses Diesel. It is only the stupidity of the executives at the big 3 that there isn't a way to get a diesel in a 1/2 american truck. If there was the truck verses truck comparison could be fair and equal. But it isn't right now, and the thing that prompted me to start the thread was seeing my friends fuel computer at 8.8 MPG this weekend, and knowing that we both tow the same size and type trailer, on the same roads, and I have not gotten less than 10.5 mpg yet with my gasser. He pays 850$ a month for the payment, higher taxes, higher insurance rates, has more expensive maintance costs, and he is filling his tank with fuel that is nearly a dollar more per gallon. Sure his truck will out tow mine and out plow it, maybe outlive it too, but for both of our purposes a 1/2 ton truck would work fine, he bought the diesel cause it was supposed to save him money, it hasn't.



Sure seems like you've changed your tune since page 1. It definately seemed like you were saying the tundra beats ass on all 3/4 tons and half tons alike...

[Lawnworks]

And to be clear, I am not comparing a Tundra to a 3/4 ton truck. I am simply comparing powertrains. Gas verses Diesel. It is only the stupidity of the executives at the big 3 that there isn't a way to get a diesel in a 1/2 american truck. If there was the truck verses truck comparison could be fair and equal. But it isn't right now, and the thing that prompted me to start the thread was seeing my friends fuel computer at 8.8 MPG this weekend, and knowing that we both tow the same size and type trailer, on the same roads, and I have not gotten less than 10.5 mpg yet with my gasser. He pays 850$ a month for the payment, higher taxes, higher insurance rates, has more expensive maintance costs, and he is filling his tank with fuel that is nearly a dollar more per gallon. Sure his truck will out tow mine and out plow it, maybe outlive it too, but for both of our purposes a 1/2 ton truck would work fine, he bought the diesel cause it was supposed to save him money, it hasn't.

It is kind of funny following your posts. You are gungho about whatever truck you currently have. It really doesn't matter that you save any money using gas over diesel... when you buy new and take a huge hit a year later when you get tired of it like you did w/ your isuzu cabover and sold it for 8k less than you paid for it.... lot of money for a solo operator.

I bought a used diesel duramax for my wife... and bought it right. I probably get better fuel mileage than you ever will, and when I sell it two years down the road... I will get what I paid for it... remember diesels hold there value a bit better than Toyota gas guzzler.

[nosparkplugs]

Just seen on the news tonight that Toyota was down like 32%(not sure on exact%) in truck sales
as was the big three. Dodge was the hardest hit with chevy and ford taking less of a hit then toyota. This was on the National news tonight. ALL truck sales are hurting. Toy dealer around here has a ton of tundras..Few tacomas.
I belive GM's new 1/2 ton diesel( anound mid 400's hp) is comming out late 09.
Will be interesting to see what kind of mpg's this rig gets.

Dieselpower is our Biofuel for the future:hammerhead:

Simple the Diesel 1/2 ton's are going to be the answer for those of us that do not require a 3/4 ton truck, but want the diesel engine option.

Hope I'm around here long enough to see the diesel haters eating their negative speculation on the "Diesel Hype", and those future "I love my new 1/2 ton diesel truck" will be oh so sweat to read

[mybowtie]

Dieselpower is our Biofuel for the future:hammerhead:

Simple the Diesel 1/2 ton's are going to be the answer for those of us that do not require a 3/4 ton truck, but want the diesel engine option.

Hope I'm around here long enough to see the diesel haters eating their negative speculation on the "Diesel Hype", and those future "I love my new 1/2 ton diesel truck" will be oh so sweat to read

New diesels(at least the gm) cant use bio...unless you void the warnty by removing the dpf filter....

You will here some diesel haters singing there praise for the 1/2 ton diesel...........:usflag:

[GravelyGuy]

I haven't read most of this thread just because it is annoying, we just need to wait until Toyota comes out with a 3/4 and then compare. As far as I'm concerned it kicks a$$ compared to the other 1/2 tons.

I hauled mulch all spring with my Tundra. I had my trailer loaded with 8 1/2 yards of shredded bark probably 10 times this spring. Sometimes it was wet and the stuff was HEAVY when wet. So heavy that it busted the welds were my leaf springs connect on my trailer and I had to have it fixed.

It towed it very well and I have no brake controller. My trailer is 2,000 pounds empty. I also had my 200 gallon sprayer in my truck and the springs couldn't handle it without helpers, but the brakes and drivetrain had no trouble.

I don't plan to put a plow on it, but we'll have to see. I plan to use my Gator for plowing this winter, it's a diesel LOL:laugh: I'm putting my truck to the test.

[tthomass]

I didn't bother reading all the posts but here's my experience with my trucks:

'02 Chevy 2500HD 6.0L and 4.10 rear with 70,000 miles
*8-9mpg with trailer towing heavy load or just trailer
*10-12mpg driving around
*never higher then 15mpg straight highway

'07 Chevy DMAX (new generation) 3.73 rear w/ 20,000 miles
*10.5mpg towing 12,500-13,000 lbs
*12.5mpg towing 5,000lb-ish loads
*16mpg towing 2,000lb-ish loads highway
*16mpg driving around
*18mpg mixed highway and driving around
*22-23mpg highway

'04 Chevy 4500 DMAX, don't remember what rear end, 84,000 miles
*10mpg driving around and working

'02 International 4300 6spd with DT466 and 145,000 miles
*8.5mpg working.......doesn't matter, doesn't really change much with what you're doing
*10mpg highway if I remember correctly
*totalled......damn it

'99 Honda Civic SI
*12mpg on track
*25mpg driving around
*34mpg highway
*abused on a regular basis :)

[nosparkplugs]

I haven't read most of this thread just because it is annoying, we just need to wait until Toyota comes out with a 3/4 and then compare. As far as I'm concerned it kicks a$$ compared to the other 1/2 tons.

I hauled mulch all spring with my Tundra. I had my trailer loaded with 8 1/2 yards of shredded bark probably 10 times this spring. Sometimes it was wet and the stuff was HEAVY when wet. So heavy that it busted the welds were my leaf springs connect on my trailer and I had to have it fixed.

It towed it very well and I have no brake controller. My trailer is 2,000 pounds empty. I also had my 200 gallon sprayer in my truck and the springs couldn't handle it without helpers, but the brakes and drivetrain had no trouble.

I don't plan to put a plow on it, but we'll have to see. I plan to use my Gator for plowing this winter, it's a diesel LOL:laugh: I'm putting my truck to the test.

your fellow Tundra buddy wanted to debate a 1/2 ton Jap gasburner vs 3/4 ton Cummins diesel "Stirring the pot" to say the least.

Those weld fractures are common on trailers that did not have the U bracket the leaf springs are attached too, reinforced with a bolt & nut in the hole provided , and then welded for additional strength, no more weld failures

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

Put on your glasses and read, a tundra can't plow snow PERIOD. They don't even make the mounts for anything other then home owner plows. Not to mention they won't tow a large skid steer, or a fully loaded dump trailer. They are LIGHT DUTY. If your worried about the gas mileage go buy your Tundra, but for people who work hard, they dont cut it. This is not a comparison, because the diesel is for TOWING LARGE LOADS that the Tundra will not do. So your comparison is pointless! End of story.


Man, I wonder about some of you.... Can you not read and understand what you just read? Were not talking about needing to plow snow or pull skid steers.

I did not say that people don't need 3/4 ton trucks or 1 ton trucks....and I did not say my 1/2 ton Tundra will outwork those trucks or can do the job those trucks can do.

I am simply saying that if 90 percent of your needs can be satisified with a stout 1/2 ton truck, there is no reason to waste money on a far more expensive Diesel powered truck with the hopes of saving money, as I don't believe you will.

I can't think of anything a man will BS about more than the length of their man part and what kind of gas milage their vehicles get. Real world results are often far less.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

Sorry I ment mid 4's for tq....not hp. Belive its in the low 3's for hp...Its a 4.5 and if it sees good mpg's it should do well for the guys that dont need a 3/4 ton...:usflag:
The problem will be the still higher cost to buy it, maintain it and the higher cost of the fuel itself.

If they could offer a 175-200 HP / 400 lbs 6 cylinder diesel, for only 2 grand or less, more than the gas V-8 version they might have something. But I suspect that isn't how it will turn out.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

Sure seems like you've changed your tune since page 1. It definately seemed like you were saying the tundra beats ass on all 3/4 tons and half tons alike...

Again, you must not be able to let what you read sink in before you run your mouth via your fingers on the keyboard. I never even came close to saying the Tundra beats ass on any of the larger trucks. I said I am getting equal or better milage than the people I know personally who drive diesels - and don't BS about their day to day real world milage.

I have basically said that the Tunda is one hell of a truck and that if a person were shopping between a Silverado 1500, a Ford F-150, Dodge Ram 1500, Nissan Titan.... If they drove the Tundra and really looked it over, I would be surprised if the person bought something else. I know that some people may not like the looks, or the dash layout, or the colors offered, or any of a number of reasons not to buy the Toyota. But I will say it again, I could have any truck I wanted, and I have had many late model trucks, and this Tundra is the best yet.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

It is kind of funny following your posts. You are gungho about whatever truck you currently have. It really doesn't matter that you save any money using gas over diesel... when you buy new and take a huge hit a year later when you get tired of it like you did w/ your isuzu cabover and sold it for 8k less than you paid for it.... lot of money for a solo operator.

I bought a used diesel duramax for my wife... and bought it right. I probably get better fuel mileage than you ever will, and when I sell it two years down the road... I will get what I paid for it... remember diesels hold there value a bit better than Toyota gas guzzler.


I still stand by my postive comments about the Isuzu Cabovers. I just didn't like driving it. It is a great work truck and probably the best thing out there to give to a employee to drive, but for comfort it sucks.

I wanted a way to save money. Sure I lost money selling it, who doesn't loose money buying any truck new? Would I have lost less money if I kept the truck a few more years, I don't think so.

Again, I wanted to save money. I sold the Isuzu and my truck payment went down almost 100$ per month. And I went from a average of 9 to 9.5 mpg to 10.5 to 11.5 mpg with my new rig - which isn't a huge amount but it does add up. I also was able to sell my Dodge Durango I used as a errand car, since I now had the Tundra to drive on the weekends if I need to go somewhere. This saved me the expenses of insurance, maintance, and taxes on the Durango, which in turn saves me even more money per month. By selling the Isuzu and buying the Tundra I am saving over 200-225$ per month and driving something that is far more comfortable and fun to drive, and I have found I really like working out of the enclosed trailer ( gives me a private place to take a leek when out on the jobsites )

As for resale value, to be honest I think your smoking crack. Go look at kelly blue book values for used Diesels ( new verses used values ) and then the Tundra. Or for that matter, any car or truck Toyota makes.... Toyotas simply hold their value very well. Especially used Toyota trucks. Sure Diesel Rams and Silverados and Fords all have relatively strong resale values, but overall between what they cost new and what they sell used for in a few years, the amount they depreciate is still substantial. I paid 22,700$ out the door for my Tundra, go look up what it is worth and see for yourself. Mine is a Double cab, 4x2, power everything ( except seats ) big V-8, tow package, etc...

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

Dieselpower is our Biofuel for the future:hammerhead:

Simple the Diesel 1/2 ton's are going to be the answer for those of us that do not require a 3/4 ton truck, but want the diesel engine option.

Hope I'm around here long enough to see the diesel haters eating their negative speculation on the "Diesel Hype", and those future "I love my new 1/2 ton diesel truck" will be oh so sweat to read

If the new 1/2 ton Diesels come with the same kind of power and fuel economy of the first generation of Dodge Sprinter Vans, I would be happy to pay more for the fuel, and more for the diesel version of the truck. We will have to see...

I am not a diesel hater. I have had two of them myself and would buy a third tomorrow if it would really add up to save me money. Right now it won't. I strongly considered buying a Sprinter van to pull my trailer about instead of the Tundra, but the Sprinter van was over 10,000$ more money to purchase, taking the savings of the diesel out.

Again, I am not a diesel hater, I am a hater of blind stupidity and ignorance.... And from alot of the typical " I gotta get me one of them there Diesels ! " when most of the people buying them or considering buying them don't need them, that is ignorance.

[sumovato]

just from my experience, i have a 2001 Dodge Ram 1500 and a 2001 Dodge Ram 2500 (diesel)

I normally average about 3-5 more mpg when towing a 5,000 lb load with my diesel. Gasser gets around 10-12 MPG and the diesel 13-15 MPG so it is worth it, not really with diesel being around 60-1.00 more per gallon, however when i hit a hill i can tell which one i am pulling with.

[coolluv]

The problem will be the still higher cost to buy it, maintain it and the higher cost of the fuel itself.

If they could offer a 175-200 HP / 400 lbs 6 cylinder diesel, for only 2 grand or less, more than the gas V-8 version they might have something. But I suspect that isn't how it will turn out.

Well I have no reason to bulls$$$ about my trucks MPG. I'm not brand loyal. If you read my post you would see that what you just said is false. Fuel Mileage varies from driver to driver and truck to truck. There are to many variables like tires, terrain, driving style, Etc. If you go to the diesel forums you will see mileage claims all over the board. How can the same truck have so many different mileage claims? Because like I said there are to many variables.

The savings in diesel Mpg pays for itself in about 10 years. I do not drive like a race car nor do I drive like grandpa. I have no modifications to my truck and it is stock. I don't have 10,000 miles on my truck yet and from everything I have read and heard my mpg are only going to get better.


Look at the post in this forum talking about the 6.0 liter gas motor and the Mpg they are getting. They are getting terrible Mpg. Can you pull a 4000-5000 lb trailer with a 1500 truck? You sure can. But will it hold up over the long haul? Most won't. Most will experience transmission problems and premature engine failures. 1500 pickups are made for occasional hauling and towing,not working hard everyday. 2500 diesels are made to work day in and day out. I would like to know if you are going to be honest about your new truck when it starts to fall apart? Will you still have the same enthusiasm? Will you come on here and tell us about your experience. Time will tell.

Dave...

[Lynden-Jeff]

[QUOTE=Rons Rightway Lawncare;2400474]

I am simply saying that if 90 percent of your needs can be satisified with a stout 1/2 ton truck, there is no reason to waste money on a far more expensive Diesel powered truck with the hopes of saving money, as I don't believe you will.

[QUOTE]

THANKS for sharing that piece of common sense :hammerhead:, and to each there own, I wouldn't give my diesel up for the world. Ill be sure to blow a big black cloud when I see ya on the highway.

[newdude]

:sleeping:Just seen on the news tonight that Toyota was down like 32%(not sure on exact%) in truck sales
as was the big three. Dodge was the hardest hit with chevy and ford taking less of a hit then toyota. This was on the National news tonight. ALL truck sales are hurting. Toy dealer around here has a ton of tundras..Few tacomas.
I belive GM's new 1/2 ton diesel( anound mid 400's hp) is comming out late 09.
Will be interesting to see what kind of mpg's this rig gets.



you are so wrong on that "mid 400 hp" for the new 4.5L 1/2 duramax engine. As stated by GM themselves, it will make 320hp and 520 ft/lbs of torque.

[newdude]

I haven't read most of this thread just because it is annoying, we just need to wait until Toyota comes out with a 3/4 and then compare. As far as I'm concerned it kicks a$$ compared to the other 1/2 tons.

I hauled mulch all spring with my Tundra. I had my trailer loaded with 8 1/2 yards of shredded bark probably 10 times this spring. Sometimes it was wet and the stuff was HEAVY when wet. So heavy that it busted the welds were my leaf springs connect on my trailer and I had to have it fixed.

It towed it very well and I have no brake controller. My trailer is 2,000 pounds empty. I also had my 200 gallon sprayer in my truck and the springs couldn't handle it without helpers, but the brakes and drivetrain had no trouble.

I don't plan to put a plow on it, but we'll have to see. I plan to use my Gator for plowing this winter, it's a diesel LOL:laugh: I'm putting my truck to the test.



with the way the economy is going and the fact that their truck sales are tanking more than the big three, i don't think they are going to bother making a 3/4 tundra.

[mybowtie]

:sleeping:



you are so wrong on that "mid 400 hp" for the new 4.5L 1/2 duramax engine. As stated by GM themselves, it will make 320hp and 520 ft/lbs of torque.

And if you read my next post, you would see i corrected my mistake...
Thanks for sharing....Maybee you were:sleeping:..........:usflag:

[Lawnworks]

I still stand by my postive comments about the Isuzu Cabovers. I just didn't like driving it. It is a great work truck and probably the best thing out there to give to a employee to drive, but for comfort it sucks.

I wanted a way to save money. Sure I lost money selling it, who doesn't loose money buying any truck new? Would I have lost less money if I kept the truck a few more years, I don't think so.

Again, I wanted to save money. I sold the Isuzu and my truck payment went down almost 100$ per month. And I went from a average of 9 to 9.5 mpg to 10.5 to 11.5 mpg with my new rig - which isn't a huge amount but it does add up. I also was able to sell my Dodge Durango I used as a errand car, since I now had the Tundra to drive on the weekends if I need to go somewhere. This saved me the expenses of insurance, maintance, and taxes on the Durango, which in turn saves me even more money per month. By selling the Isuzu and buying the Tundra I am saving over 200-225$ per month and driving something that is far more comfortable and fun to drive, and I have found I really like working out of the enclosed trailer ( gives me a private place to take a leek when out on the jobsites )

As for resale value, to be honest I think your smoking crack. Go look at kelly blue book values for used Diesels ( new verses used values ) and then the Tundra. Or for that matter, any car or truck Toyota makes.... Toyotas simply hold their value very well. Especially used Toyota trucks. Sure Diesel Rams and Silverados and Fords all have relatively strong resale values, but overall between what they cost new and what they sell used for in a few years, the amount they depreciate is still substantial. I paid 22,700$ out the door for my Tundra, go look up what it is worth and see for yourself. Mine is a Double cab, 4x2, power everything ( except seats ) big V-8, tow package, etc...


Your payment went down! That is hilarious... you lost almost 10k in one year and then reply your are saving money on your monthly payment, and 2mpg better fuel economy. I guess some people will never be financially savy. Ever heard of Dave Ramsey? I am guessing not.

[punt66]

Your payment went down! That is hilarious... you lost almost 10k in one year and then reply your are saving money on your monthly payment, and 2mpg better fuel economy. I guess some people will never be financially savy. Ever heard of Dave Ramsey? I am guessing not.

All of you people arguing probably own pedal cars. haha just kidding. Really who cares. If you want the smelly, loud diesel and it makes you feel important then spend the extra 10k on it. And who wants to sit in the same truck for 20 years? We all have our preferences and thats that. Go to work.

[newdude]

And if you read my next post, you would see i corrected my mistake...
Thanks for sharing....Maybee you were:sleeping:..........:usflag:



ohh, my bad. did not even read that untill now. thanks. i think i was :sleeping:

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

[QUOTE=Rons Rightway Lawncare;2400474]

I am simply saying that if 90 percent of your needs can be satisified with a stout 1/2 ton truck, there is no reason to waste money on a far more expensive Diesel powered truck with the hopes of saving money, as I don't believe you will.

[QUOTE]

THANKS for sharing that piece of common sense :hammerhead:, and to each there own, I wouldn't give my diesel up for the world. Ill be sure to blow a big black cloud when I see ya on the highway.


All this time dealing with your BS replies and I never even bothered to read where you were from. I just did though and see your from Canada. That explains everything. :dizzy: Have fun with your Diesel!

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

Your payment went down! That is hilarious... you lost almost 10k in one year and then reply your are saving money on your monthly payment, and 2mpg better fuel economy. I guess some people will never be financially savy. Ever heard of Dave Ramsey? I am guessing not.

You know, other than a faceless exchange of communication here I know nothing about you. For all I know you could be a really great guy, or you could be a bonafide prick. You could be a millionare just playing around on the internet, or cutting grass as a hobby, Or you could be some loser with no credit or bad credit that wants to dis others who would rather make payments on something nice than drive a POS. I don't know you and frankly from what I have seen out of you I am glad I don't know you.

I bought a truck, drove it for a year and decided it wasn't for me. You have, not once, not twice, but many times over, keep bringing up the fact that I ( in your opinion ) made a mistake by buying the truck new and that I sold it for a loss.

Bottom line is that is honestly none of your business to begin with.

And secondly, this is what people do. Not everyone wants to buy a used truck. Whether it is smart or not, a good percentage of people prefer to buy stuff new. I do admit, if I ever buy another NPR you can bet your butt it will be used, but at the time I couldn't find what I wanted used and it was easier to buy new.

You say I lost close to 10 grand. I don't see it that way though, I put 2500$ down and made payments for a little over a year. I have been making a truck payment continuously on one truck or another since 1993, so even though it is true I lost the downpayment and I lost the money I sent in on those payments, I don't feel the loss was as bad as it sounds.

Reguardless, I don't care. I bought the truck for personal use and business use and I no longer needed it for personal use and I hated driving it. It was loud inside, always hot inside due to the almost complete lack of insulation and sitting on top of the hot engine and the large windshield, it had a harsh bouncy ride, and there was not enough leg room and I couldn't recline the seat where I wanted it to be. The A/C could not keep the inside as cold as I wanted it, the radio was not loud enough nor did it sound good. And I hated climbing up into the truck and having to climb down out of it 15-20 times per day. It was a good work truck and if I ever hired employees this is what I would buy for them to drive, but I didn't want to drive one myself anymore and I saw a way to save money I spend on gas and a way to lower my payment by selling the NPR and going back to a truck and trailer. I did just that and couldn't be happier. It was been 2-3 months since the NPR sold and I have not missed that truck at all, not once have I wished I still had that truck around.

If you want to call it a mistake that I bought new that is fine. If you want to say I made a mistake that I sold it only a year later for a loss that is fine too. But I don't regret any of it and I am not crying about it, so why do you feel the need to keep bringing it up?

[FIRESCOOBY]

I'll agree that diesel is not for everyone.

I bought my 2006 Duramax 4wd crew cab for $34k out the door in September 2006. That was before down payment and trade was calculated in. I'm not sure what a crew cab Tundra/ 4wd runs, but I would guess that it's gotta be around $30k.

I've driven a new Tundra, and it is very nice. I just don't like the high revving engine. You gotta really run the motor up to get to the powerband. I am a Toyota lover (own a 2005 Sienna, and have owned 5 other yota's).

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

Well I have no reason to bulls$$$ about my trucks MPG. I'm not brand loyal. If you read my post you would see that what you just said is false. Fuel Mileage varies from driver to driver and truck to truck. There are to many variables like tires, terrain, driving style, Etc. If you go to the diesel forums you will see mileage claims all over the board. How can the same truck have so many different mileage claims? Because like I said there are to many variables.

The savings in diesel Mpg pays for itself in about 10 years. I do not drive like a race car nor do I drive like grandpa. I have no modifications to my truck and it is stock. I don't have 10,000 miles on my truck yet and from everything I have read and heard my mpg are only going to get better.


Look at the post in this forum talking about the 6.0 liter gas motor and the Mpg they are getting. They are getting terrible Mpg. Can you pull a 4000-5000 lb trailer with a 1500 truck? You sure can. But will it hold up over the long haul? Most won't. Most will experience transmission problems and premature engine failures. 1500 pickups are made for occasional hauling and towing,not working hard everyday. 2500 diesels are made to work day in and day out. I would like to know if you are going to be honest about your new truck when it starts to fall apart? Will you still have the same enthusiasm? Will you come on here and tell us about your experience. Time will tell.

Dave...

The NPR I had, had a 6.0 GM V-8 in it. Driving loaded the truck got as low as 8.2 mpg and as high as 10.8 mpg. On average it got around 9 to 9.5 mpg. That is crappy, but the NPR was a heavy and bulky truck.

If your towing 4-5 thousand pound trailers you don't need a truck with the 6.0 in it.

My last truck before the NPR was a 2005 Chevy 1500 2wd shortbed regular cab. It was a 4.8 V-8 with a automatic tranny, the lowest axle ratio they offered ( not really what was best for towing but that is what it had ) and not much else. I towed a 6.5 by 16 foot trailer with 2 mowers and all the other usual stuff on it. I estimate the weight of the trailer loaded was around 5000 pounds. The little Chevy pulled it just fine, never struggling and I drove it with the normal flow of traffic. It averaged 13.5 mpg like clockwork.

the truck I had before the 1500 Silverado was a 2003 Chevy Avalanche 1500 with 4x4, 5.3 V-8, and fully loaded with all the options. Towing the same 16 foot trailer it got 11.5 mpg like clockwork.

I know I personally don't keep trucks as long as the average person, but the average person I would guess doesn't keep a new truck much longer than 4-6 years. I do believe a 1/2 ton truck pulling a 4-5 thousand pound trailer daily can go that long easily with no more chance of problems than a diesel 3/4 ton truck would be just as likely to have.

Two of my friends in the lawncare business with diesels both have had far more problems with their diesel trucks than I have ever had with any of the trucks I have owned. The friend with the 03 Ram has had the transmission replaced once already, the truck also caught fire due to some manufactors defect and the whole bed had to be replaced, the starter has gone out on him etc... And his truck only has 75,000 miles. I will have to ask him whatelse he has had to do, as I know there is more I am not remembering off the top of my head. The other has a late model Ford with the 6.0 powerstroke and his had cylinderhead failure which left him stranded in Indiana and took weeks to get fixed. My own 2000 Ram lost the starter with less than 20 thousand miles on it, but otherwise I never had any other problems with it.

I will let you guys know if I have problems with the Toyota, even though it seems like most of you guys here aren't interested in a toyota to begin with.

[TXNSLighting]

I'll agree that diesel is not for everyone.

I bought my 2006 Duramax 4wd crew cab for $34k out the door in September 2006. That was before down payment and trade was calculated in. I'm not sure what a crew cab Tundra/ 4wd runs, but I would guess that it's gotta be around $30k.

I've driven a new Tundra, and it is very nice. I just don't like the high revving engine. You gotta really run the motor up to get to the powerband. I am a Toyota lover (own a 2005 Sienna, and have owned 5 other yota's).

tundras are about 40 grand...

[Lawnworks]

All of you people arguing probably own pedal cars. haha just kidding. Really who cares. If you want the smelly, loud diesel and it makes you feel important then spend the extra 10k on it. And who wants to sit in the same truck for 20 years? We all have our preferences and thats that. Go to work.

Just trying to help people see the light... especially solo operators that don't net alot. Vehicles are depreciating assets. Financing new vehicles isn't exactly the way to financial success.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

Just trying to help people see the light... especially solo operators that don't net alot. Vehicles are depreciating assets. Financing new vehicles isn't exactly the way to financial success.

Well I think your full of it. You have no information in your profile, no location of where you live, nothing. For all I know your a 12 year kid who likes to play pretend on the internet.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

tundras are about 40 grand...

Mine had most of the normal options. It does not have the following.... leather, 4x4, sunroof, power seats, navigation system, nor any of the stuff like running boards or aluminum wheels etc... Mine stickered at around 28 grand and I bought it new for 22,700$ out the door with no trade in.

[punt66]

Just trying to help people see the light... especially solo operators that don't net alot. Vehicles are depreciating assets. Financing new vehicles isn't exactly the way to financial success.

I agree with you. I dont carry a note on anything except my house. The first truck i owned i bought new in 1991. A dodge 2504x4. I still use it 17 years later but not on an everyday basis. I had a note on that truck and i vowed to never have another note. Its a waste of interest money. So after my last payment on the truck i continued to make truck payments too myself in a different account. Wow that added up fast. Before i knew it i could buy things out right. But everything i bought i paid a payment to myself. I was my own banker. I made my money work for me and i ownly make smart purchases.

For example:

2007 dodge 1500 quad cap thunder road 4x4 bought New in 2007

Sticker $37,000
-$6000 dodge rebate
-$5000 wife's corporate discount
-$500 business discount
-traded 2006 Pilot i also stole year before(wife wanted smaller car)-4000
New Sticker $21,500 plus reg etc

Play it smart people. A diesel wont save you money. But if you need the pulling power because of a large enclosed etc then you need it. But most Lco's pull trailers under 4,000lbs. So give us the pipe and if you run into me with either my 62 vette, 66mustang conv drag car, 66cyclone gt, 84 must conv or my Harley Road king i can give it back!hahah Success to all.

[Guzman Properties]

I like my Ford Diesel, wouldn't be caught dead in any export truck, but that's just me.

[4 seasons lawn&land]

Your payment went down! That is hilarious... you lost almost 10k in one year and then reply your are saving money on your monthly payment, and 2mpg better fuel economy. I guess some people will never be financially savy. Ever heard of Dave Ramsey? I am guessing not.



:laugh: Exactly what I was thinking. He just does'nt get it. Not only did he lose money on that but he is'nt making any money arguing on here all day. :dizzy:

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

The whole debate over is it smarter to pay cash or finance, or buy new verses used can be tossed back and forth and obviously both sides have their pros and cons.

I have good credit and I usually get a good interest rate. Does it cost me more to finance my truck than if I paid cash? Sure, but the key thing is I don't mind paying more. Every person out there has things they don't mind spending their money on and other things they do mind spending money on.

Example.... 3 weekends ago, one of my best friends and his girl friend met up with my wife and I and another couple on the lake. Towards the end of the day the idea of all of us going out to eat came up. They all wanted to go to a Sushi bar, I was willing to go to Outback or Olive Garden, or somewhere like Chili's or Applebees. They decided to go to the Sushi bar anyway and my wife and I just went home and ate something out of the freezer. The next day we met up on the lake again and asked how their dinner was. They spent close to 300$ for dinner for 4 people. That works out to $75 per person. I don't care how good the food is, I would NEVER pay $75 for dinner! $20 is the most I could even think about spending and usually it is no more than 30$ total bill for my wife, son and I when we go out to eat.

Only maybe once a year will I splurge and go to the movies, I would rather save money and watch them at home on the DVD player.

I don't own any fancy clothes. I have no gold chains or rings or other stuff like that. I cut my own hair. I buy my shoes at Walmart.

I am thrifty in some places, yet don't mind spending a little extra in others. I don't mind spending an extra few grand in interest over the course of a 5 year loan to have the nice truck I want now, rather than to try to save the money up and buy it later.

So my point is, yes your right, it would be smarter to save the money up and pay cash - in the case of my Tundra, paying cash would save me $3370.46 in interest charges over the life of the loan - But the way I look at it, that 3370$ divides out to be about $56 per month, far less than what most people will spend on getting their hair cut, or a fancy dinner, or some expensive shoes, etc....

Also if you were to try to save up the money and it took 4 years, how much more would the truck cost in four years from now? Maybe not quite $3370, but probably pretty close.

And look, if were going to talk about how stupid it is to finance something, pull out your paperwork on your homes mortage and take a look at what your interest charges will total by the time your house is paid for. Talk about paying a steep finance charge!

[punt66]

The whole debate over is it smarter to pay cash or finance, or buy new verses used can be tossed back and forth and obviously both sides have their pros and cons.

I have good credit and I usually get a good interest rate. Does it cost me more to finance my truck than if I paid cash? Sure, but the key thing is I don't mind paying more. Every person out there has things they don't mind spending their money on and other things they do mind spending money on.

Example.... 3 weekends ago, one of my best friends and his girl friend met up with my wife and I and another couple on the lake. Towards the end of the day the idea of all of us going out to eat came up. They all wanted to go to a Sushi bar, I was willing to go to Outback or Olive Garden, or somewhere like Chili's or Applebees. They decided to go to the Sushi bar anyway and my wife and I just went home and ate something out of the freezer. The next day we met up on the lake again and asked how their dinner was. They spent close to 300$ for dinner for 4 people. That works out to $75 per person. I don't care how good the food is, I would NEVER pay $75 for dinner! $20 is the most I could even think about spending and usually it is no more than 30$ total bill for my wife, son and I when we go out to eat.

Only maybe once a year will I splurge and go to the movies, I would rather save money and watch them at home on the DVD player.

I don't own any fancy clothes. I have no gold chains or rings or other stuff like that. I cut my own hair. I buy my shoes at Walmart.

I am thrifty in some places, yet don't mind spending a little extra in others. I don't mind spending an extra few grand in interest over the course of a 5 year loan to have the nice truck I want now, rather than to try to save the money up and buy it later.

So my point is, yes your right, it would be smarter to save the money up and pay cash - in the case of my Tundra, paying cash would save me $3370.46 in interest charges over the life of the loan - But the way I look at it, that 3370$ divides out to be about $56 per month, far less than what most people will spend on getting their hair cut, or a fancy dinner, or some expensive shoes, etc....

Also if you were to try to save up the money and it took 4 years, how much more would the truck cost in four years from now? Maybe not quite $3370, but probably pretty close.

And look, if were going to talk about how stupid it is to finance something, pull out your paperwork on your homes mortage and take a look at what your interest charges will total by the time your house is paid for. Talk about paying a steep finance charge!

You just like to argue. Believe me i know my finances i dont need you to tell me. My $310,000 home with a 5.0% mortgage payment of $2200 (including $7200 property tax escrow)and the $1000 extra a month i put into principal because i dont have any other loans leaves me in a good place, a place i dont need your advice on. I was on your side about the diesel thing but have now come to the realization that the others are right about you. You paid how much for a 2wd?

[punt66]

The whole debate over is it smarter to pay cash or finance, or buy new verses used can be tossed back and forth and obviously both sides have their pros and cons.

I have good credit and I usually get a good interest rate. Does it cost me more to finance my truck than if I paid cash? Sure, but the key thing is I don't mind paying more. Every person out there has things they don't mind spending their money on and other things they do mind spending money on.

Example.... 3 weekends ago, one of my best friends and his girl friend met up with my wife and I and another couple on the lake. Towards the end of the day the idea of all of us going out to eat came up. They all wanted to go to a Sushi bar, I was willing to go to Outback or Olive Garden, or somewhere like Chili's or Applebees. They decided to go to the Sushi bar anyway and my wife and I just went home and ate something out of the freezer. The next day we met up on the lake again and asked how their dinner was. They spent close to 300$ for dinner for 4 people. That works out to $75 per person. I don't care how good the food is, I would NEVER pay $75 for dinner! $20 is the most I could even think about spending and usually it is no more than 30$ total bill for my wife, son and I when we go out to eat.

Only maybe once a year will I splurge and go to the movies, I would rather save money and watch them at home on the DVD player.

I don't own any fancy clothes. I have no gold chains or rings or other stuff like that. I cut my own hair. I buy my shoes at Walmart.

I am thrifty in some places, yet don't mind spending a little extra in others. I don't mind spending an extra few grand in interest over the course of a 5 year loan to have the nice truck I want now, rather than to try to save the money up and buy it later.

So my point is, yes your right, it would be smarter to save the money up and pay cash - in the case of my Tundra, paying cash would save me $3370.46 in interest charges over the life of the loan - But the way I look at it, that 3370$ divides out to be about $56 per month, far less than what most people will spend on getting their hair cut, or a fancy dinner, or some expensive shoes, etc....

Also if you were to try to save up the money and it took 4 years, how much more would the truck cost in four years from now? Maybe not quite $3370, but probably pretty close.

And look, if were going to talk about how stupid it is to finance something, pull out your paperwork on your homes mortage and take a look at what your interest charges will total by the time your house is paid for. Talk about paying a steep finance charge!

Oh by the way are you saying home ownership is stupid? You need to take a financials course. My first home i bought i was 23. I paid $111,000 for it and it needed work. 7 years later after all the renovations and now a new home from roof, siding to bathroom and kitchen i sold it for $269,000. I put about $30,000 into it in materials the rest my labor. I do all work myself. So here goes.

in 7 years i paid:

$21,000 in taxes (everybody pays taxes)
$35,000 in interest
$30,000 material home improvment==========$86,000

I walked away from the sale with 269,000-111,000=$158,000


$158,000-86,000=$92,000 and thats counting all expenses dealing with a home. Let me guess, you rent? My second home i made $50,000 in 2 years and im now on my third. Take some financial courses, you need them.

[punt66]

So while you rent i am getting paid to live in my home.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

You know.... I come on Lawnsite every now and then, will post here and there and read some threads, then come to realize that alot of people on here are just simply A holes and I just use my internet time on other sites.

You Punt66 have it, and me all wrong.

First of all, I do NOT rent. I pay a mortage payment just like you do. Mine is for a much less expensive house ( 2000 square feet on about 2/3rd of a acre, 10311 Silver Mine Rd Fort Mill SC 29707 if you want to Google Earth it ) It is my second home and like your first one, I too made some good bucks on the first house. I could afford to live in a 3-4 hundred thousand dollar home, but I like the 650$ a month mortage payment where I am at and I like my location as I can do pretty much anything I want to on my property, unlike most of the neighborhoods in this area that have bylaws and really limiting rules on what you can or can't do.

I am into my hobbies more than where I live. I own two aircraft that I fly regularly. I own a 40x40 foot hangar at a private airport. I have a boat and a jet ski. I have both on road and off road motorcycles. I travel several times per year. I use the money I would use to have a expensive house and instead live in a cheaper 130 thousand dollar house and have money to go flying or boating etc...

The area I am living in has exploded. My house is probably worth double what I paid for it, maybe even more. It is somewhat of a investment and I understand what your trying to say.

But this brings up my second point. Most of the country, house prices are falling, people aren't selling their houses for these huge gains like they were 2-4 years ago. Maybe in your case you will do as good on your house your in now as your last one, but chances are on average, you won't.

The whole point I was trying to make about mortages to begin with is there is a stiff amount of interest charges you rack up on a mortage compared to a car or truck. It doesn't make sence for some of you guys to try to play it like people like me who finance a truck are stupid, when the interest charged is really small potatoes compaired to the interest we all pay on our mortages.


As for my truck and the 2wd question, let me make this clear. I have owned several 4x4 trucks over the years. Not one time did I truely need to use the front wheels for extra traction. NOT ONE TIME. Here where I live we rarely get snow, and I don't have the need or desire to go mud bogging. Therefore for me to pay extra to buy a truck with four wheel drive over 2wd, and to have the small but real gas milage drop from the extra weight and drag of the 4wd system is ******ed. I will never go out of my way to buy another 4x4 if I can help it. I see you live up North, you probably get a fair amount of snow and I can see where you could need 4wd, but I can assure you, I don't need it.

I also have no need for a 3/4 ton truck. I never have needed one. I have been in lawnservice since 1994 and have had all kinds of trailers and mower combos and all of the stuff I have had could have been easily pulled with a 1/2 ton truck. We don't get much if any snow here so no need for plowing snow, and I don't haul mulch or do landscaping and rarely use the bed of my truck other than to haul fertilizer or seed back home from Lesco, or to haul pinestraw bails which aren't very heavy.

I bought a 3/4 ton Diesel Ram in 1999 because I was told that this would save me money over the gas powered 1996 GMC Sierra 1500 I was using at the time. It did, at first, but just barely. My payment went up quite a bit but the diesel did get 14-15 mpg towing verses the 10-11 my GMC got and diesel was a good bit cheaper than regular gas. I then decided to trade in the 1999 diesel ram ( long bed 2wd with a stick ) for a 2000 Ram diesel with 4wd and a shortbed and a automatic. That bumped the payment up even higher and about that time diesel started costing more than gasoline. The truck only got 15-17 mpg unloaded, unless I drove it slow ( I lived in Florida at the time and drove alot on the highway and everyone drives at 75-80 mph on the highway there ) and a few mpg less towing. I sold the truck and bought a 2001 Chevy Silverado 1500 2wd with the small V-8 and haven't missed the diesel or the heavier duty 3/4 ton truck since.

Yes I paid 22,700$ for my Tundra and yes it is 2wd. Have you priced a Ford or Chevy or Dodge 1/2 truck lately? I got a good deal bro. The truck is not a stripped down work truck, it has all the normal goodies such as power windows, mirrors, locks, keyless entry, dual zone AC, CD player with aux input, upgraded cloth interior, tinted windows, chrome bumpers and grill, traction control, ABS, side airbags etc... It is equipped on par with say a Chevy 1500 Silverado LT. Go to www.carsdirect.com and see what your favorite brand of truck with this type of options costs. New diesel trucks with the same level of equipment are approaching 50 grand on the sticker, the Toyota stickered in the high 28 grand range ( over 29 grand when you add in the dealer added sticker for the bedliner, floormats and pin stripping )

I see other threads where guys are proudly posting pictures of their " new " trucks, trucks that are 10-15 years old and have a ton of miles on them. They bought these trucks for 5 grand, or maybe even less. Good for them! But that is not for me. I have been there and done there, and I would rather spend the bank 430$ per month knowing I am in a comfortable and trustworthy truck that I can depend on, than having to deal with a breakdown with my truck on a busy day and all the upkeep to keep it on the road.

I don't have anything against buying used to save money. I just bought a boat a few weeks ago. Priced new ones at close to 20 grand and found a killer deal on a 2007 Glastron a friend was selling cause he is moving out of the country. He had it less than a year and had over 20 grand in it. I paid 9400$ for the boat, trailer and all his boating gear.... I recently went shopping for a " new " motorcycle and wanted a Suzuki SV650. A new one was close to 8 grand, and I found and bought a mint condition used 2000 model with 2700 original miles and about a thousand dollars worth of add ons for 3200$.

I have alot of stuff I bought in nearly new condition but at a huge savings over new. If I could have found a used Tundra, or even Silverado, that was in like new condition with low miles and priced right I would have bought the truck used too. But again, go online and look at the prices of used 1 to 2 year old trucks verses what a new ones costs if you can work the dealer and get the best possible price. The new ones almost always end up being cheaper, or the used one is not priced far enough below the new one to make the deal worth passing up on the new one ( used truck loans usually have much higher interest rates that can make a used truck that is a few grand less in price end up carrying a simular payment to the new truck )


I am not here to argue with you or anyone else, I am just trying to state my opinion and share my experiences with the rest of you

[Grass Happens]

Wow. I live in an apartment. That must make me a financial idiot because i dont buy a house. I guess it does help I don't pay rent since i work for the complex i live in.
Anyways, The reason I wouldn't buy a tundra is that i could buy a 3/4 truck for the same price. That's even considering my girlfriend works for a dealer and I could get a pretty nice deal on one...
Toyota isn't doing as hot as it could be either, they just lost a lot on the japanese stock exchange...

[SiteSolutions]

I get shite mileage (from as low as 9 to as high as 13?) in my 03 sick-oh PSD. I am grossing 20,000 most of the time, tho, so I am glad to have a one ton truck.

The Toys have always had a reputation for being tough and reliable. I am sure if they ever made a one ton it would kick butt.

I think the point to be made is that a 4500 pound truck pulling a 4500 pound trailer, with a gas motor, is getting better mpg than a 7,000 or 8,000 pound (or more) truck pulling whatever trailer your friend is pulling, with a diesel. So the headline should be "Heavy trucks get worse mileage than light ones", not "Don't believe the diesel hype"

I mean, it's an interesting observation and all, but with the name of the thread, it is no wonder you got 10 pages of ugly remarks in like three days.

[punt66]

You know.... I come on Lawnsite every now and then, will post here and there and read some threads, then come to realize that alot of people on here are just simply A holes and I just use my internet time on other sites.

You Punt66 have it, and me all wrong.

First of all, I do NOT rent. I pay a mortage payment just like you do. Mine is for a much less expensive house ( 2000 square feet on about 2/3rd of a acre, 10311 Silver Mine Rd Fort Mill SC 29707 if you want to Google Earth it ) It is my second home and like your first one, I too made some good bucks on the first house. I could afford to live in a 3-4 hundred thousand dollar home, but I like the 650$ a month mortage payment where I am at and I like my location as I can do pretty much anything I want to on my property, unlike most of the neighborhoods in this area that have bylaws and really limiting rules on what you can or can't do.

I am into my hobbies more than where I live. I own two aircraft that I fly regularly. I own a 40x40 foot hangar at a private airport. I have a boat and a jet ski. I have both on road and off road motorcycles. I travel several times per year. I use the money I would use to have a expensive house and instead live in a cheaper 130 thousand dollar house and have money to go flying or boating etc...

The area I am living in has exploded. My house is probably worth double what I paid for it, maybe even more. It is somewhat of a investment and I understand what your trying to say.

But this brings up my second point. Most of the country, house prices are falling, people aren't selling their houses for these huge gains like they were 2-4 years ago. Maybe in your case you will do as good on your house your in now as your last one, but chances are on average, you won't.

The whole point I was trying to make about mortages to begin with is there is a stiff amount of interest charges you rack up on a mortage compared to a car or truck. It doesn't make sence for some of you guys to try to play it like people like me who finance a truck are stupid, when the interest charged is really small potatoes compaired to the interest we all pay on our mortages.


As for my truck and the 2wd question, let me make this clear. I have owned several 4x4 trucks over the years. Not one time did I truely need to use the front wheels for extra traction. NOT ONE TIME. Here where I live we rarely get snow, and I don't have the need or desire to go mud bogging. Therefore for me to pay extra to buy a truck with four wheel drive over 2wd, and to have the small but real gas milage drop from the extra weight and drag of the 4wd system is ******ed. I will never go out of my way to buy another 4x4 if I can help it. I see you live up North, you probably get a fair amount of snow and I can see where you could need 4wd, but I can assure you, I don't need it.

I also have no need for a 3/4 ton truck. I never have needed one. I have been in lawnservice since 1994 and have had all kinds of trailers and mower combos and all of the stuff I have had could have been easily pulled with a 1/2 ton truck. We don't get much if any snow here so no need for plowing snow, and I don't haul mulch or do landscaping and rarely use the bed of my truck other than to haul fertilizer or seed back home from Lesco, or to haul pinestraw bails which aren't very heavy.

I bought a 3/4 ton Diesel Ram in 1999 because I was told that this would save me money over the gas powered 1996 GMC Sierra 1500 I was using at the time. It did, at first, but just barely. My payment went up quite a bit but the diesel did get 14-15 mpg towing verses the 10-11 my GMC got and diesel was a good bit cheaper than regular gas. I then decided to trade in the 1999 diesel ram ( long bed 2wd with a stick ) for a 2000 Ram diesel with 4wd and a shortbed and a automatic. That bumped the payment up even higher and about that time diesel started costing more than gasoline. The truck only got 15-17 mpg unloaded, unless I drove it slow ( I lived in Florida at the time and drove alot on the highway and everyone drives at 75-80 mph on the highway there ) and a few mpg less towing. I sold the truck and bought a 2001 Chevy Silverado 1500 2wd with the small V-8 and haven't missed the diesel or the heavier duty 3/4 ton truck since.

Yes I paid 22,700$ for my Tundra and yes it is 2wd. Have you priced a Ford or Chevy or Dodge 1/2 truck lately? I got a good deal bro. The truck is not a stripped down work truck, it has all the normal goodies such as power windows, mirrors, locks, keyless entry, dual zone AC, CD player with aux input, upgraded cloth interior, tinted windows, chrome bumpers and grill, traction control, ABS, side airbags etc... It is equipped on par with say a Chevy 1500 Silverado LT. Go to www.carsdirect.com and see what your favorite brand of truck with this type of options costs. New diesel trucks with the same level of equipment are approaching 50 grand on the sticker, the Toyota stickered in the high 28 grand range ( over 29 grand when you add in the dealer added sticker for the bedliner, floormats and pin stripping )

I see other threads where guys are proudly posting pictures of their " new " trucks, trucks that are 10-15 years old and have a ton of miles on them. They bought these trucks for 5 grand, or maybe even less. Good for them! But that is not for me. I have been there and done there, and I would rather spend the bank 430$ per month knowing I am in a comfortable and trustworthy truck that I can depend on, than having to deal with a breakdown with my truck on a busy day and all the upkeep to keep it on the road.

I don't have anything against buying used to save money. I just bought a boat a few weeks ago. Priced new ones at close to 20 grand and found a killer deal on a 2007 Glastron a friend was selling cause he is moving out of the country. He had it less than a year and had over 20 grand in it. I paid 9400$ for the boat, trailer and all his boating gear.... I recently went shopping for a " new " motorcycle and wanted a Suzuki SV650. A new one was close to 8 grand, and I found and bought a mint condition used 2000 model with 2700 original miles and about a thousand dollars worth of add ons for 3200$.

I have alot of stuff I bought in nearly new condition but at a huge savings over new. If I could have found a used Tundra, or even Silverado, that was in like new condition with low miles and priced right I would have bought the truck used too. But again, go online and look at the prices of used 1 to 2 year old trucks verses what a new ones costs if you can work the dealer and get the best possible price. The new ones almost always end up being cheaper, or the used one is not priced far enough below the new one to make the deal worth passing up on the new one ( used truck loans usually have much higher interest rates that can make a used truck that is a few grand less in price end up carrying a simular payment to the new truck )


I am not here to argue with you or anyone else, I am just trying to state my opinion and share my experiences with the rest of you


Who said anything about new verse used anyway? My point was the price you paid for a 2wd truck is high. I paid that for a 4wd new. Resale on a 2wd is low compared to 4wd. As far as the gentleman responding to my comment about renting. I dont think renting is dumb, its great because without renters my 2 two family investment homes wouldnt be making me money in both monthly income and the equity your paying into and not benefiting from. The only reason i brought it up is because the genius up there decided to tell me having a mortgage is dumb when he himself has one:hammerhead: Im done with this guy. He even argues with people who were on his side*trucewhiteflag*.

[jefftb]

I think the point to be made is that a 4500 pound truck pulling a 4500 pound trailer, with a gas motor, is getting better mpg than a 7,000 or 8,000 pound (or more) truck pulling whatever trailer your friend is pulling, with a diesel. So the headline should be "Heavy trucks get worse mileage than light ones", not "Don't believe the diesel hype"

I mean, it's an interesting observation and all, but with the name of the thread, it is no wonder you got 10 pages of ugly remarks in like three days.

Yep, that would've been a better title. The problem is that the diesel trucks do have hype when towing heavy loads over gas engines. That is a simple conclusion for those that tow heavy all of the time. I'll agree when towing below 6,000 lbs. that diesel and gas are close together in overall operating costs. Beyond that, gas begins to fall further and further behind with each mile-assuming you tow significant numbers of miles. For the occasional tow'er the large block gas engines work well, i.e. FORD V10 and GM 6.0 for 8-10,000 lbs. loads

Do it everyday and you will quickly learn that the diesel saves money. I conclude this from owning three trucks, F250 5.4, GM 3500 with large block, and F350 7.3 Diesel. I spend less money towing with the diesel each year since we account for each of the different trucks operating costs.

....I hope I do not get flamed for this since I'm half agreeing with you.:rolleyes:

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

Wow. I live in an apartment. That must make me a financial idiot because i dont buy a house. I guess it does help I don't pay rent since i work for the complex i live in.
Anyways, The reason I wouldn't buy a tundra is that i could buy a 3/4 truck for the same price. That's even considering my girlfriend works for a dealer and I could get a pretty nice deal on one...
Toyota isn't doing as hot as it could be either, they just lost a lot on the japanese stock exchange...


You understand that if you buy a 3/4 ton truck, and use one your going to have a truck that is heavier, rides harsher, and gets worse gas milage than a 1/2 ton truck right? If you have no need for the extra capacity of the 3/4 ton truck why give up the smooth ride and have a truck that sucks down even more of that 4$ a gallon liquid gold?

For what I paid for my tundra I have seen large peterbuilt, Freightliner, Volvo, etc... 18 wheeler Semis for sale, even cheaper than the tundra, Why not buy one of these instead and you would have a truck that could pull anything and a real loud Turbo to make neat jet engine sounds! :usflag:

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

Who said anything about new verse used anyway? My point was the price you paid for a 2wd truck is high. I paid that for a 4wd new. Resale on a 2wd is low compared to 4wd. As far as the gentleman responding to my comment about renting. I dont think renting is dumb, its great because without renters my 2 two family investment homes wouldnt be making me money in both monthly income and the equity your paying into and not benefiting from. The only reason i brought it up is because the genius up there decided to tell me having a mortgage is dumb when he himself has one:hammerhead: Im done with this guy. He even argues with people who were on his side*trucewhiteflag*.


You must be of less than average intellegence, if you can not see that I was not in any way shape or form saying having a mortage is dumb. Go back and slowly reread what I posted.

I was responding to the crap I was having thrown at me for buying a new vehicle and making payments on it. I was making the observation that the 3700$ in interest I will pay on my tundra is a far cry less than the amount of interest I will have paid on my 30 year mortage. FAR FAR FAR less..... And that it seems kind of petty to complain about financing a pick up truck when when nearly all of us are happy to fork out tens of even hundreds of thousands of dollars in finance charges on our houses. Where is all the advise that we should maybe stay home with our parents, or live in the cheapest possible place and save money up to pay cash for our houses?

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

Yep, that would've been a better title. The problem is that the diesel trucks do have hype when towing heavy loads over gas engines. That is a simple conclusion for those that tow heavy all of the time. I'll agree when towing below 6,000 lbs. that diesel and gas are close together in overall operating costs. Beyond that, gas begins to fall further and further behind with each mile-assuming you tow significant numbers of miles. For the occasional tow'er the large block gas engines work well, i.e. FORD V10 and GM 6.0 for 8-10,000 lbs. loads

Do it everyday and you will quickly learn that the diesel saves money. I conclude this from owning three trucks, F250 5.4, GM 3500 with large block, and F350 7.3 Diesel. I spend less money towing with the diesel each year since we account for each of the different trucks operating costs.

....I hope I do not get flamed for this since I'm half agreeing with you.:rolleyes:

No flames from me! I agree with most of what you said.

I do stand by my thread title though. There is alot of diesel hype. What I mean is go to any internet forum, a lawnservice forum... PWC forum..... Camper trailer forum.... anywhere, and start a thread saying you want to move up from say a Ford Ranger, or a Chevy S-10 and you want to go full size. The bulk of the replies will be " Get a diesel " or if you say your going to tow anything the replies will be, you need to " Get a Diesel "

Often times the person doesn't need a diesel at all, and the math works out to give the overall advantage to the gasser ( this is if your not doing alot of towing or only towing relatively light loads )

I started this thread with a catchy title to attract attention to it ( seems like that worked as planned! ) and I did it because the " Diesel Hype " is that my friends Dodge Ram should be getting better mpg than my Toyota Tundra, since we pull the same size trailer with nearly the same weight and on the same roads. I am equalling or bettering his MPG, in a truck that is as nice but over 1/3rd to nearly 1/2 the cost to buy and with fuel that is nearly a dollar a gallon less.

[Grass Happens]

If i want ride quality, I'll buy a car. I don't. Ok, the 3/4 ton is heavier. and sucks down "liquid gold". the difference between a 4x4 1/2 ton and 4x4 3/4 ton in mileage is what, 2 or 3 mpg? I'd rather now if i need the towing capacity or something its there rather then crossing my fingers and hoping. granted you have a 2x4, so the mileage is a bit better, but if I'm going to lay down a significant chunk of change down on a new vehicle, I'll lay some more down so i can get a 4x4 and use it in the winter, but that is me. You may be fine without plowing, in which case i am supremely envious. Not to mention the new tundra's are having their fair share of teething problems, no different then any other truck out there.
Is a diesel for everyone? not at all. Hell right now I have a ford ranger, and while I wish it was one of the cool diesel models that got 40mpg, its not. Is a Gasser more sensible for a majority of lawn maintenance companies out there? yes. is bashing people cool? no.

[coolluv]

113541

This is what my truck looked like when it was 12 years old. As you can see it was still in great shape. I took very good care of it. I started to use it as a work truck back in 2006 when this picture was taken. I pulled a 16ft tailer as you can see it behind my truck in the picture. The truck was purchased new in 1994. I used it as my daily driver but on occasion I did do a little work with it. When I started my business in 2006 I used it to pull my trailer with. Like I said in another post it did alright but It was slow going on bigger hills unless I got a running shot. Which is almost impossible with Atlanta traffic. It was slower on the freeways getting up to speed.

And anyone who lives in Atlanta will tell you that if your not doing at least 70mph, traffic will run right over you. The first year was fine I really did not have any problems with it,but the second year I noticed that the tranny would not shift properly when is was cold. Then the A/C went out. The radio quit working. The front axle seals went out and that was a $1400 repair. What I'm getting at is once I started to haul a 5000 pound trailer and pine straw Ect. it started to give me problems.

Now I know age had something to do with it, but I know working it all the time also had something to do with it. These trucks are made to be worked on occasion. Not everyday. Ron, you keep saying in your post that your friends diesel gets the same Mpg as you do in your truck. I find that hard to believe. My new Duramax gets 3 to 4 Mpg better towing my trailer than what this dodge did. Not only that my chevy gets significantly better Mpg not towing than my Dodge did.

If your happy with your Toyota thats fine,but don't come on hear and make ignorant statements based on your friends truck. Your Toyota will start to fall apart while my Chevy diesel is still working hard day in day out. And it will look as good as this truck did 12 years from now. Keeping trucks for more than 10 years is financially savy. Purchasing a new truck every 3 or 4 years is stupid. By the way I got 0% financing for 60 months.

Guys like you just don't get it.

Dave...

[punt66]

[QUOTE=And look, if were going to talk about how stupid it is to finance something, pull out your paperwork on your homes mortage and take a look at what your interest charges will total by the time your house is paid for. Talk about paying a steep finance charge![/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Rons Rightway Lawncare;2403426]You must be of less than average intellegence, QUOTE]

Your kidding right? Are you even 16? I think this yahoo is making up stories and trying to argue for the fun of it. Have fun with that.

[Lynden-Jeff]

You know.... I come on Lawnsite every now and then, will post here and there and read some threads, then come to realize that alot of people on here are just simply A holes and I just use my internet time on other sites.


Have you looked in the mirror lately? Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics, even if you win your still a ******. You and your marathon posts, like really you must cut one yard and then hop on lawnsite, great business. Im starting to think this is your Dads Tundra.lol :canadaflag: :canadaflag:

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

If i want ride quality, I'll buy a car. I don't. Ok, the 3/4 ton is heavier. and sucks down "liquid gold". the difference between a 4x4 1/2 ton and 4x4 3/4 ton in mileage is what, 2 or 3 mpg? I'd rather now if i need the towing capacity or something its there rather then crossing my fingers and hoping. granted you have a 2x4, so the mileage is a bit better, but if I'm going to lay down a significant chunk of change down on a new vehicle, I'll lay some more down so i can get a 4x4 and use it in the winter, but that is me. You may be fine without plowing, in which case i am supremely envious. Not to mention the new tundra's are having their fair share of teething problems, no different then any other truck out there.
Is a diesel for everyone? not at all. Hell right now I have a ford ranger, and while I wish it was one of the cool diesel models that got 40mpg, its not. Is a Gasser more sensible for a majority of lawn maintenance companies out there? yes. is bashing people cool? no.

If I lived up North I would suspect I would want to make the extra bucks plowing snow. I also suspect that you guys get enough snow and ice that all wheel drive is a must, so I would almost certainly pay the extra up front cost and buy a 3/4 ton truck.

But again, here in the south we just don't need all wheel drive trucks, and for the kind of work alot of us do we don't need the extra capacity of a 3/4 or 1 ton truck.

I understand the way alot of people think, about buying the more capable vehicle " just in case " .... of course, around here we all get kicks at the guys and gals driving big 4x4 trucks and SUV's that will never ever even be shifted into four wheel drive, seems kinda wasteful when you really think about it!

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

If i want ride quality, I'll buy a car. I don't.


I just looked at your profile, still in your 20's I see! :) I remember when I was your age I couldn't care less how my truck rode!!! I guess since I am a little older now I am finding that I appreciate the a smoother ride and so on. Up until fairly recently I never understood why old people tend to drive Buicks and Cadillacs and those kinds of cars, but it makes sence to me now.

I can tell you that if you were to drive my old Isuzu NPR for 300 miles, then do the same drive in the Tundra... I don't care how old or how young you are, if you had to do that same 300 miles each week, you would want to do it in the Tundra! ;)

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

[QUOTE=Rons Rightway Lawncare;2403426]You must be of less than average intellegence, QUOTE]

Your kidding right? Are you even 16? I think this yahoo is making up stories and trying to argue for the fun of it. Have fun with that.

I posted my address in this thread. Do a search on the address and you will see I am a real person and the info in my profile is correct. Not making up any stories

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

Have you looked in the mirror lately? Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics, even if you win your still a ******. You and your marathon posts, like really you must cut one yard and then hop on lawnsite, great business. Im starting to think this is your Dads Tundra.lol :canadaflag: :canadaflag:

Funny! Dads Tundra, thats funny too. See the post above.

And remember, no one asked you to read any of my posts.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

113541

This is what my truck looked like when it was 12 years old. As you can see it was still in great shape. I took very good care of it. I started to use it as a work truck back in 2006 when this picture was taken. I pulled a 16ft tailer as you can see it behind my truck in the picture. The truck was purchased new in 1994. I used it as my daily driver but on occasion I did do a little work with it. When I started my business in 2006 I used it to pull my trailer with. Like I said in another post it did alright but It was slow going on bigger hills unless I got a running shot. Which is almost impossible with Atlanta traffic. It was slower on the freeways getting up to speed.

And anyone who lives in Atlanta will tell you that if your not doing at least 70mph, traffic will run right over you. The first year was fine I really did not have any problems with it,but the second year I noticed that the tranny would not shift properly when is was cold. Then the A/C went out. The radio quit working. The front axle seals went out and that was a $1400 repair. What I'm getting at is once I started to haul a 5000 pound trailer and pine straw Ect. it started to give me problems.

Now I know age had something to do with it, but I know working it all the time also had something to do with it. These trucks are made to be worked on occasion. Not everyday. Ron, you keep saying in your post that your friends diesel gets the same Mpg as you do in your truck. I find that hard to believe. My new Duramax gets 3 to 4 Mpg better towing my trailer than what this dodge did. Not only that my chevy gets significantly better Mpg not towing than my Dodge did.

If your happy with your Toyota thats fine,but don't come on hear and make ignorant statements based on your friends truck. Your Toyota will start to fall apart while my Chevy diesel is still working hard day in day out. And it will look as good as this truck did 12 years from now. Keeping trucks for more than 10 years is financially savy. Purchasing a new truck every 3 or 4 years is stupid. By the way I got 0% financing for 60 months.

Guys like you just don't get it.

Dave...



Now don't flame me for responding with my honest opinion, but... Even though I like Dodge trucks - I have had 3 of them, 2 rams and 1 durango - I have to be honest and say that I really don't believe the Dodge trucks were built as well as Ford or Chevys. I think that explains the problems you were having more so than the fact that you were towing a trailer with it.

You never mentioned how many miles the truck had on it when you started using it for work purposes. You did say that it was basically a 12 year old truck by then, and if you drove it 15,000 miles per year that would be 180,000 miles by the time you decided to use it for work. What was the milage when you got it? And again, not to come off the wrong way, but why would using the truck to tow a trailer cause pre mature failure of the A/C?

Ron, you keep saying in your post that your friends diesel gets the same Mpg as you do in your truck. I find that hard to believe.

Man I know it is hard to believe, but I swear it is true. I already said it earlier in this thread, but honestly, what reason would I have to come here and tell a lie?

And the thing about it is I am using what my friends fuel milage computer is reading, verses my true caculated milage. I have had several vehicles with fuel computers and not one of them ever under estimated, they were always showing better figures than what the true caculated milage worked out to be. In reality the one friend with the Dodge Ram Diesel may be getting even lower milage than the 8.8 to 10.5 mpg spread I have observed on his fuel computer. Me on the other hand, caculated true milage at every single fill up. The last fill up was a little over 260 miles and worked out to be a little over 11 mpg.

None of this is really a big deal, it is just a observation that the newer diesels aren't doing as well as older diesels, and the newer gas engines are doing better than the older gas engines, and in the case of my Tundra verses my friends Ram, I am ending up with better mpg than he is. I would not believe it either if I didn't know what I know and have seen with my own eyes. I expected he would be getting far better mpg than me, I was expecting he would have been getting 14 or more mpg towing, but that is simply not the case

My new Duramax gets 3 to 4 Mpg better towing my trailer than what this dodge did. Not only that my chevy gets significantly better Mpg not towing than my Dodge did.

I would expect it to get even better than 3-4 mpg personally. Dodge gas trucks are probably the worst for good gas milage.

I test drove a new Ram Quad cab with the hemi engine for about 3 days back in 2003. Towing a 16 foot open trailer I got a even 10 mpg. I ended up buying a Avalanche instead and the chevy got on average 11.5 mpg. Then in 2005 I test drove another dodge for 3 days, this time a regular cab ram with the 4.7 V-8 engine pulling the same trailer and just barely got 10 mpg, and ended up buying a Silverado regular cab with the 4.8 V-8 and it got 13.5 mpg like clockwork. The 2001 Dodge Durango I recently sold had the 4.7 liter V-8 and just driving it around on errands it averaged between 13-15 mpg. The best I ever saw out of it was a trip with all highway driving and keeping it at or below 65 mph and it still didn't do better than 17 mpg. My Avalanche would get 20 mpg under the same circumstances. Bottom line is Dodges just plain use more gas! This Toyota seems to be on par with the kind of milage I was seeing out of the Chevy trucks I have had, possibly even a little better.

[nosparkplugs]

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_tundra.html

[punt66]

[QUOTE=punt66;2403720]

I posted my address in this thread. Do a search on the address and you will see I am a real person and the info in my profile is correct. Not making up any stories

i wouldnt waste my time on you. I have never called anybody names on this site and plan to continue that trend like all should but you have defenetly tested me on that. So i will just say this. :dizzy:

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_tundra.html

You know, there is always people who have problems with a product or Service. It doesn't matter if it is a new car, a Flat screen TV, a computer, your cell phone or cell service etc... It is obviously a pretty petty way for you to try to say that I am driving a POS cause you found a page of complaints on Toyota Tundras.

Here look what I found, does this mean your truck is a POS?

http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?did=73

http://www.daimlerchryslervehicleproblems.com/

http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/2003-dodge-ram-1500-lone-star-edition-c2050.html

http://www.dodgeproblems.com/Ram_3500/

http://dodge-truck.pissedconsumer.com/2002-dodge-ram-1500-20080224113819.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/viewcomments_review_8898.html

http://allworldauto.com/comments/DODGE_RAM3500_QUADCAB_4X4_SWB_comments_and_complaints_11-34018-1.html

http://www.lemonauto.com/complaints/daimler_chrysler/dodge_ram1500.htm


I think that is enough for now. Do I believe all these complaint pages means Dodges are junk? No. I know that a person can have good luck and trouble free motoring out of any brand of truck. I also know that anything mechanical has a chance of having a problem, so when you have a country as big as the USA, and so many people driving a particular brand, your going to have complaint on the internet. This does not mean the vehicle is a POS. I know I have not had the first issue of any kind with my Tundra, just as I have not had any issues with the 3 Dodges I have owned. The only issues I ever had with the 4 Chevy trucks I owned over the last 12 years was tailgate cables failing, not a big deal really.

[nosparkplugs]

No your not driving a POS, but you continually exaggerate the specifications on these Tundra's. Their are some many variables when doing truck comparison's whether towing, HP, Torque MPG etc. You have taken just the information that benefits the Tundra's when comparing it to a 3/4 ton diesel. Put a gooseneck hitch in your tundra, and tow 13,500lbs daily for 3 years, and get back with us. The Tundra forums are divided on the Tundra's reliability, and towing abilities even today, and their not really designed for a gooseneck!! and yet you compare it to a Dodge 3/4 CTD. Come on? most of us overload our trucks form time to time. I have seen Tundras overloaded with the bumpers dragging with trailers on them. You can never truly compare a 1/2 ton tundra to a 3/4 ton, just apples to oranges, and you just don't get that do you.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

See, how am I to answer a post like that No spark plugs when you are completely wrong, without coming off as a Ahole, or someone who " just doesn't get it " or that I live and breath just to argue on Lawnsite???

I mean how many times do I have to say I am not comparing a 1/2 ton to a 3/4 ton truck as far as which truck will tow the most weight or haul the most payload in the bed?

Where did I ever say a Tundra will out pull a 3/4 ton Diesel truck?

Where in the helll do you come up with this pulling 13,500 lbs daily stuff and pulling gooseneck trailers around?

I mean I understand your proud of your truck and I am proud of my truck too. But I am not making up stories about my truck and I am not exaggerating the specifications of it either.

Why is it so hard for some of you to understand what I am trying to say with this entire thread? Why do you have to take what I said and twist it to mean something I never said ( such as I think my Tundra is a more capable truck than a 3/4 ton Diesel, something I never said or even implied in any way )

Let me save you 3 pages of rereading this thread and sum it up quickly and easily for you.... My gasoline powered truck is getting equal or better mpg than a friends Diesel powered truck, both of us pulling simularly weighted loads and driving the same routes. One of the biggest " Advantages " to diesel trucks is the better fuel milage over gas trucks. This milage advantage is not present in the case of his truck verses mine. Therefore I say to those interested, don't just buy into the "Diesel Hype", if your situation does not warrant it.


You guys already say that there are too many factors to say this is a fair comparison, my truck verses my friends Ram. But I am honest and I would gladly show you in person what my truck gets and what his gets if you are that dead set on calling me a liar. Also there is plenty of exaggerated fuel milage claims out there, but just as many real world real numbers out there from people who don't feel the need to exaggerate or lie about their real world MPG of their gas and diesel trucks. Looking at the real world numbers, the numbers I posted are not out of line.

[SuperDuty335]

*trucewhiteflag*

[nosparkplugs]

The Tundra's are great trucks on top of their class for towing; however with some research on 3/4 ton trucks, and 1/2 ton trucks, don't you realize that even Consumer report, Truck Trend, Diesel Power could not fairly compare the 1/2 tons with a 3/4 ton. The 1/2 tons did very well with weights under 10,500lbs all use 7,500lb test trailers; because of their light engines & frames, and most out towed 0-60mph with a trailer, any stock 3/4 diesels. However, as the weight of the trailers went up the diesels had the advantage. When Consumer report finally got their hands on the 07 4x4 tundra and towed daily with it, reliability along with MPG went down the drain Toyota has been doing damage control lever since. I don't doubt your getting better MPG than you buddy, but you cannot apply that to every 3/4 ton Cummins diesel. Of course your happy your getting better MPG towing without a 3/4 ton diesel? If you had to tow more weight your Tundra's advantage would not be their. The bottom line "real world" towing in your specific application is the only way to determine the truck & engine combination one needs. Unfortunately we cannot demo work trucks with all our gear/payload, and trailers/equipment. when I pulled up to a toyota dealership with my 3/4 ton diesel, and the salesman saw my gooseneck, he told me to pass on the 1/2 Tundra. You started a thread on something that even the companies who are paid to test these trucks on, cannot truly give a straight answer why variables. You stumbled upon a friend who is towing with a heavier 3/4 diesel the same weight what luck?; furthermore Toyota "oh so" wants, and needs the 1/2 Tundra to be compared too these american 3/4 ton diesels. Without good 1/2 Tundra sales the 3/4 Tundra will not be materialized what better PR than satisfied customers. I see your a Solo operator so the Tundra will serve your needs well; however if you do decide to grow, you will need a larger truck. Most Contracts will not be using the Tundra, but Chevy, Dodge or Ford 2500/3500/4500/5500. We will revisit this debate when Toyota officially steps into the "ring", and stops throwing bottles from ringside.

[AWJ Services]

My gasoline powered truck is getting equal or better mpg than a friends Diesel powered truck, both of us pulling simularly weighted loads and driving the same routes.

Well my powerstroke is getting the same or better mileage than my Friends Honda civic.

So Diesels are better than Gas .:cry:

[AWJ Services]

Actually no kidding aside my 2000 f250 4q4 auto trans weighing 9000 pounds (with Cargo) will log 20+ miles per gallon verified over many trips.

I would love too see any Tundra with that much weight do the same.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

The Tundra's are great trucks on top of their class for towing; however with some research on 3/4 ton trucks, and 1/2 ton trucks, don't you realize that even Consumer report, Truck Trend, Diesel Power could not fairly compare the 1/2 tons with a 3/4 ton. The 1/2 tons did very well with weights under 10,500lbs all use 7,500lb test trailers; because of their light engines & frames, and most out towed 0-60mph with a trailer, any stock 3/4 diesels. However, as the weight of the trailers went up the diesels had the advantage. When Consumer report finally got their hands on the 07 4x4 tundra and towed daily with it, reliability along with MPG went down the drain Toyota has been doing damage control lever since. I don't doubt your getting better MPG than you buddy, but you cannot apply that to every 3/4 ton Cummins diesel. Of course your happy your getting better MPG towing without a 3/4 ton diesel? If you had to tow more weight your Tundra's advantage would not be their. The bottom line "real world" towing in your specific application is the only way to determine the truck & engine combination one needs. Unfortunately we cannot demo work trucks with all our gear/payload, and trailers/equipment. when I pulled up to a toyota dealership with my 3/4 ton diesel, and the salesman saw my gooseneck, he told me to pass on the 1/2 Tundra. You started a thread on something that even the companies who are paid to test these trucks on, cannot truly give a straight answer why variables. You stumbled upon a friend who is towing with a heavier 3/4 diesel the same weight what luck?; furthermore Toyota "oh so" wants, and needs the 1/2 Tundra to be compared too these american 3/4 ton diesels. Without good 1/2 Tundra sales the 3/4 Tundra will not be materialized what better PR than satisfied customers. I see your a Solo operator so the Tundra will serve your needs well; however if you do decide to grow, you will need a larger truck. Most Contracts will not be using the Tundra, but Chevy, Dodge or Ford 2500/3500/4500/5500. We will revisit this debate when Toyota officially steps into the "ring", and stops throwing bottles from ringside.

Couple of things I want to reply to...

1. I do not have any need to tow more than 10,500 pounds and probably will rarely even get close to that amount. I mow grass, I pull a trailer with a couple of lawnmowers in it. I have at one time had two employees and we did close to 100 yards a week and even then I didn't need to pull around more than 2 lawnmowers and the trimmers and so on. Most lawnservices that want to just service the lawn will be perfectly fine with any truck that is rated for and can safely tow 8000 or so pounds.

2. I understand you want to tow around a bigger trailer. Perhaps you also like to do some landscaping and you need to haul around a big front end loader backhoe equipped tractor, or a large tracked bobcat, or several pallets of paving stones or sod. Whatever... But I don't do those things and I suspect by what I see in my local and booming area, alot of others don't do those things either. If.... IF, I decided to " Grow " my business and decide to do landscaping and need to tow around a heavy trailer, I will most likely buy a dump truck of some sort to pull it with, not a nice 3/4 or 1 ton pick up truck.


3. I wasn't going to say squat, because I knew it would just start crap, but I wanted to say what you said, and I quote " and most out towed 0-60mph with a trailer, any stock 3/4 diesels " But I am not stupid, I am sure at some point, as weight is increased, the diesel would probably end up out pulling the gasser.

4. I used to subscribe to consumer reports and came to the conclusion a few years ago that they are a bunch of morons.

5. 2007 Tundras were a all new truck, from the frame up. Did they have problems.... Absolutely. And it was a shame too, because Toyotas in the last 10-20 years have built their good reputation based on how well sorted their vehicles are. But let's be real here, surely you have heard the old saying about you should never buy the first year model of any vehicle.... That saying didn't come to be because 2007 year model Tundras had some problems. I am willing to bet the new remodels of any brand truck all had some issues that needed working out.

6. I didn't stumble across my friend as you put it. His name is Harry, and he owns " first green lawncare " here in Charlotte. If any of you guys reading this work in the Charlotte area you have probably seen his trucks ( he runs 3 crews with a truck for each crew ). I have known Harry for over 12 years, back when he worked in a auto repair shop. I was the one who got him started in the lawncare business and he still runs a pair of Bobcat 61 inch riders I sold him over 7 years ago. I remember the day he bought this truck and I remember when he bought the other diesel Ram he drives too ( It is a 2000 Ram with the CTD ) I have kept up with the milage he gets for over the last 2 years, it was just that until recently I couldn't compare anything to it, since he pulled a 7x16 enclosed trailer and I always used a 6x16 open trailer. Now that I also pull the same size trailer ( he says my trailer is 500 pounds heavier than his, and I know mine is taller than his too ) I can make a apples to apples comparision as far as our fuel milage goes. And for the non believers, there is nothing " Wrong " with his truck... He pampers his stuff and I promise you, his truck still looks as clean and well taken care of as the day he bought it new in 2003. There is nothing wrong with his truck at all.

7. I am NOT on Toyotas bankroll, or getting some kind of cool Toyota T shirt and baseball cap for saying positive things about their truck. I have nothing to gain here with anything said in this thread. I am just a real person who is sharing my real world experiences.

8. I feel pretty certain that a new 2008 Chevy Silverado with the right rear axle ratio, a six speed automatic and the 5.3 liter V-8 would match my Tundra for fuel milage pulling the same trailer. Then this whole thread could be about a gas Chevy getting better milage than a Diesel Ram.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

Well my powerstroke is getting the same or better mileage than my Friends Honda civic.

So Diesels are better than Gas .:cry:

I guess you must be talking about when both vehicles are parked in the driveway with the keys out of the ignition right? :)

[punt66]

Can Everybody Do Lawnsite A Favor And Stop Responding To This Thread :)

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

Actually no kidding aside my 2000 f250 4q4 auto trans weighing 9000 pounds (with Cargo) will log 20+ miles per gallon verified over many trips.

I would love too see any Tundra with that much weight do the same.


What kind of speed and were the roads mostly flat?

I believe that if the speed is kept somewhat slow, a Diesel truck can get fantastic milage.

My last Diesel, used mostly unloaded and just driving up and down I-75 and around town when I lived near Fort Myers Florida, it averaged around 16-17 mpg. A gas 1500 Chevy would have done better in those circumstances. But I remember I did one trip to Deland Florida to buy a ultralight airplane and I filled up just after picking it up, and I towed it back home slowly, going roughly 55 mph the whole way home. I filled up again just before I got to my house and was shocked to see I had gotten just under 30 mpg. So I do know that driving style and the speed we drive at can make a major difference in what we get out of our trucks.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

Can Everybody Do Lawnsite A Favor And Stop Responding To This Thread :)


Why did you respond to this thread? :) Gotta admit, it is better than another " I hate dog poo " or a "my customer is a PIA" thread. :laugh:

[AWJ Services]

70 to 75 mph with rolling hills.
Not flat for sure.
It will get 18mpg at 80+ mph.

It gets 10mpg with a 25k total weight at 70mph.
It will stay at 15 mpg with about 17k total weight and the goosekneck.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

70 to 75 mph with rolling hills.
Not flat for sure.
It will get 18mpg at 80+ mph.

It gets 10mpg with a 25k total weight at 70mph.
It will stay at 15 mpg with about 17k total weight and the goosekneck.


That is pretty good then!

My Dad got the diesel bug when he saw how much I liked my 2000 Ram, and he went out and bought a 2001 Ford F-350, 4x4 Dually, with the lariat package. He never towed the first thing with it, it was just a daily driver. He averaged around 15 mpg on the highway and a little less around town.

[GravelyGuy]

I just got back from a long distance trip to see the family for the weekend. I had the cruise set on 77 MPH the entire trip and I averaged 18.5 MPG. Three passengers and stuff.

Pretty sweet truck!

[GravelyGuy]

This is to the guy that said I couldn't get 20-23 MPG.

Shell 87 at every fill up since new.

[coolluv]

My problem with this thread and others like it is the fact that people will post what they believe to be true based on their own brand loyalty or bias. Not facts.
Then they come on here and act like what they say is fact. The fact is is diesels get 30% better fuel economy over gas engines. Newer diesel trucks use lighter materials than diesel trucks of the past. Yes they have emissions standards that are robbing Mpg but that has been made up for with better designs and lighter materials. You can't compare an older model diesel against a newer model diesel. Diesel trucks also vary in Mpg from Ford to Dodge to Chevy. Chevy went from a 5 speed Allison in 06 to a 6 speed Allison in 07.Why? Better Mpg.

Computer programs that control shift and engine performance have been constantly upgraded and designed for maximum efficiency. There are updates all the time to the newer diesels to change the computer programs for better performance and efficiency. My friend the LCO has a brand new 07 5.3 Chevy extended cab pickup that he purchased last year new. I never see him towing with it and I asked him why. He told me the Mpg are terrible when he pulls his 12 ft. trailer with it. Compared to his Ford Ranger and his regular cab Ford 6 cylinder pickup. He doesn't mind the fact that they don't pull that well and are slow in traffic. He had to replace both rear axles in both of the pickups this spring.

He also had to replace the trans in the Ranger. He also has to deal with constant break downs and repairs. He is so cheap that all he runs is John Deere belt drive machines that look like they been through hell and back. He won't buy a Z or a hydro machine.He just replaced the engines on 4 of the 6 machines that he runs because he did not want to buy new machines. I can understand that, you have to spend your money wisely in business and its cheaper to replace an engine then it is to replace a machine. But dealing with constant repairs is a pain in the a$$.

You should see his trailers they are all rusted and jammed full of equipment. He doesn't have to tie anything down because it can't move if it wanted too.
He is very successful having over 250 accounts and I know he makes good money and can afford new equipment if he wanted to. I understand what and why he does what he does with somethings but some of what he does just doesn't make sense to me. Its the old saying "step over a dollar to save a dime" mentality.

Mpg around town or on the highway are better with my diesel than any of the gas trucks I have owned. Mpgs towing are better with my diesel than any gas truck I have owned. This is my personal experience with gas and diesel. Yours and others experiences may be different. If you haven't tried out a new diesel you have no idea the difference there is in power. It is just amazing. Like I said in my other post, I would much rather have a truck that is more than capable of my needs that have one that is just barely capable and makes me nervous every time I use it. I always had that thought in the back of my mind if today was going to be the day my trans went out or something major was going to happen and leave me stranded.

I no longer have that worry and I can relax knowing that this truck was made to do what I do with it. I know I can have problems just like anyone else and no machine is perfect, but I have peace of mind when I leave the house.

Another thing I will say is that I have been a fan of the Toyota brand for years, but I never owned one. They have proved themselves to be a very reliable brand. I have friends that have purchased Toyota trucks that don't use them for work everyday. Before they purchased their trucks we talked about what they should buy. I always recommended the Toyota or the Chevy gas trucks. Toyota first and then Chevy. Two of my friends have purchased Tundras and love them. I have nothing against Toyota and I'm not loyal to any brand truck or mower. I buy what I think will last and get the job done.

Buy what you want and need for your situation but don't imply that diesels are not as economical or a waste just because it doesn't fit your business model. I learned along time ago not to buy cheap or buy light duty tools and things. Price is always a concern for me just like anyone else, but I'm not afraid to spend money on what I need or what is best for the job. I don't skimp on tools or mowers or whatever else I need. You may save money in the short term but in the long run it always cost more.


Dave...

[WH401]

This is to the guy that said I couldn't get 20-23 MPG.

Shell 87 at every fill up since new.

Like I said to the other guy, the problem with your calculations of mpg is your going by the computer. No factory computer is correct and you can't trust it, there are to many variables that the computer doesn't take into account. Its like taking what someone states and saying its the truth but you have no real facts to support it.

[GravelyGuy]

I checked the computer several times when the vehicle is new and it was almost 100% accurate. Not even off by tenth of a MPG.

The computers in modern vehicles are probably more accurate than the gas pump that you base your calcualtion off of.

[WH401]

I checked the computer several times when the vehicle is new and it was almost 100% accurate. Not even off by tenth of a MPG.

The computers in modern vehicles are probably more accurate than the gas pump that you base your calcualtion off of.

I highly doubt your computer is accurate, as I said there are to many variables from one driver to the next that computer or the manufacturer can't account for. Your not getting hard facts, your guessing your estimate because your not doing the work on your own. I agree with you that some stations probably are screwing people over in the amount of gas they get in a gallon for their 4 - 5 dollars. But I also know what my truck regularly gets and feel confident in the fact that station I deal with isn't one of those stations. I don't doubt your truck got 18.5 mpg, I've driven Suburbans that can do that. My point is that your trusting a computer to do the work for you. While you may feel that it is accurate, it will never be as accurate as your own hand calculated calculations.

[mybowtie]

This is to the guy that said I couldn't get 20-23 MPG.

Shell 87 at every fill up since new.

Going buy your pic...you didnt get 20-23 mpg's.:hammerhead:

[GravelyGuy]

The numbers are accurate. I HAVE double checked them. The truck IS getting 18.5 MPG and I have been able to get up to 23 MPG when kept under 65 MPH. Sorry I don't have a pic of that today:rolleyes:

What variables are you talking about when it comes to the numbers? I reset it everytime I fill up. The only real variable I am thinking of would be at idle which if anyhting would make the numbers go down.

[Lawnworks]

Well I think your full of it. You have no information in your profile, no location of where you live, nothing. For all I know your a 12 year kid who likes to play pretend on the internet.

With advise I am giving you... you think I am 12-year old kid??? My net worth is already 10 times what yours is... and I am 25. You can pm me for advice and building wealth anytime... it is my hobby. My 200k will payed off in a few months... all my equipment is payed off. While your working at 45... I will be watching from the golf course.

[DeVries]

bla bla bla why don't you all just grow up you bunch of babies:cry:

[Lynden-Jeff]

With advise I am giving you... you think I am 12-year old kid??? My net worth is already 10 times what yours is... and I am 25. You can pm me for advice and building wealth anytime... it is my hobby. My 200k will payed off in a few months... all my equipment is payed off. While your working at 45... I will be watching from the golf course.

Amen :clapping:

[Lynden-Jeff]

bla bla bla why don't you all just grow up you bunch of babies:cry:

We saw your new logos on your trucks last weekend, Jacob said they look good.

[WH401]

The numbers are accurate. I HAVE double checked them. The truck IS getting 18.5 MPG and I have been able to get up to 23 MPG when kept under 65 MPH. Sorry I don't have a pic of that today:rolleyes:

What variables are you talking about when it comes to the numbers? I reset it everytime I fill up. The only real variable I am thinking of would be at idle which if anyhting would make the numbers go down.

I'm glad to see that now you say that you have hand calculated and checked your numbers instead of going solely by the computer after you have routinely said you used the computer and then all of a sudden you questioned about how you got your mpg figures, hmm coincidence?

As I stated, "I DON'T doubt that your getting 18.5 mpg" however I do doubt 23 mpg, expecially at 65. Your RPM's can only get so low at a speed before you run out of power and the high 6th gear in the 6 speed starts hurting your mpg. I might believe it at 55 but even that is far fetched.

A persons driving style makes a big variable for the computer, driving all highway makes the computer think your using less fuel than you really are because your hardly accelerating or not at all, etc. It all goes back to grade school the teacher made you show your work. You've have the work to prove your answer. If you just go by what the computer says everytime then you'll never know your mpg because you have no proof of its answer. The overhead computers aren't and probably will never be correct unfortunately.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

My problem with this thread and others like it is the fact that people will post what they believe to be true based on their own brand loyalty or bias. Not facts.
Then they come on here and act like what they say is fact. The fact is is diesels get 30% better fuel economy over gas engines. Newer diesel trucks use lighter materials than diesel trucks of the past. Yes they have emissions standards that are robbing Mpg but that has been made up for with better designs and lighter materials. You can't compare an older model diesel against a newer model diesel. Diesel trucks also vary in Mpg from Ford to Dodge to Chevy. Chevy went from a 5 speed Allison in 06 to a 6 speed Allison in 07.Why? Better Mpg.

Computer programs that control shift and engine performance have been constantly upgraded and designed for maximum efficiency. There are updates all the time to the newer diesels to change the computer programs for better performance and efficiency. My friend the LCO has a brand new 07 5.3 Chevy extended cab pickup that he purchased last year new. I never see him towing with it and I asked him why. He told me the Mpg are terrible when he pulls his 12 ft. trailer with it. Compared to his Ford Ranger and his regular cab Ford 6 cylinder pickup. He doesn't mind the fact that they don't pull that well and are slow in traffic. He had to replace both rear axles in both of the pickups this spring.

He also had to replace the trans in the Ranger. He also has to deal with constant break downs and repairs. He is so cheap that all he runs is John Deere belt drive machines that look like they been through hell and back. He won't buy a Z or a hydro machine.He just replaced the engines on 4 of the 6 machines that he runs because he did not want to buy new machines. I can understand that, you have to spend your money wisely in business and its cheaper to replace an engine then it is to replace a machine. But dealing with constant repairs is a pain in the a$$.

You should see his trailers they are all rusted and jammed full of equipment. He doesn't have to tie anything down because it can't move if it wanted too.
He is very successful having over 250 accounts and I know he makes good money and can afford new equipment if he wanted to. I understand what and why he does what he does with somethings but some of what he does just doesn't make sense to me. Its the old saying "step over a dollar to save a dime" mentality.

Mpg around town or on the highway are better with my diesel than any of the gas trucks I have owned. Mpgs towing are better with my diesel than any gas truck I have owned. This is my personal experience with gas and diesel. Yours and others experiences may be different. If you haven't tried out a new diesel you have no idea the difference there is in power. It is just amazing. Like I said in my other post, I would much rather have a truck that is more than capable of my needs that have one that is just barely capable and makes me nervous every time I use it. I always had that thought in the back of my mind if today was going to be the day my trans went out or something major was going to happen and leave me stranded.

I no longer have that worry and I can relax knowing that this truck was made to do what I do with it. I know I can have problems just like anyone else and no machine is perfect, but I have peace of mind when I leave the house.

Another thing I will say is that I have been a fan of the Toyota brand for years, but I never owned one. They have proved themselves to be a very reliable brand. I have friends that have purchased Toyota trucks that don't use them for work everyday. Before they purchased their trucks we talked about what they should buy. I always recommended the Toyota or the Chevy gas trucks. Toyota first and then Chevy. Two of my friends have purchased Tundras and love them. I have nothing against Toyota and I'm not loyal to any brand truck or mower. I buy what I think will last and get the job done.

Buy what you want and need for your situation but don't imply that diesels are not as economical or a waste just because it doesn't fit your business model. I learned along time ago not to buy cheap or buy light duty tools and things. Price is always a concern for me just like anyone else, but I'm not afraid to spend money on what I need or what is best for the job. I don't skimp on tools or mowers or whatever else I need. You may save money in the short term but in the long run it always cost more.


Dave...


I believe if you compaired two engines of equal size, be it 2 liter engines in volkswagens ( gas or diesel ) or 5.9 liter engines in Dodges ( gas or Diesel ) or 3 liter engines in Mercedes ( gas or diesel ) etc... And of equal rated horsepower, you would see a 30 percent increase in fuel milage with the diesel.

The difference is that first of all, the big 3 automakers have been in a diesel engine horsepower race for the last 10-15 years, and the Diesel engined trucks now have the most horsepower out of all their powertrain choices. It takes fuel to make horsepower and takes fuel to run a large powerful engine. The newer the diesel truck is, the worst the milage it gets. It makes more power than the older model it replaced, but it suffers from lower economy at the same time. Anyone who has had several diesels over the last 10 years could tell you this if you don't believe me.

Meanwhile the gasoline engines are also getting more powerful, yet they are staying relatively small. The gasoline engined trucks are getting better milage each year, with the newer trucks getting better milage than the trucks they replaced.

So this 30 percent improvement or advantage in diesel fuel economy is not as valid as you make it out to be, not when were comparing a small block gas V-8 powered truck to a large block Diesel engine powered truck. Would the Diesel get roughly 30 percent better milage over a big block gasser? Say the Duramax Chevy verses a 8.1 liter gas Chevy, yes very possibly.

But the whole thing about this thread that is so hard for you guys to understand is for my needs, my friends needs and the needs of many of us here on Lawnsite, a small block gas 1/2 ton truck will be more than enough to safely and reliably get the job done.

My friend bought his Diesel trucks for the same reasons I bought my diesel trucks... they had more torque than what you could get out of the gas 1/2 trucks, and they were supposed to save us money on fuel burn and less mechanical troubles over the long term. At the time it made sence, Diesel fuel cost less than gasoline and the gas engines in 1/2 trucks were barely 300 hp and only slightly more in torque, where are a diesel would give you a little less horsepower but anywhere from 420-500 + pounds of torque.

But times have changed in the last couple of years. Diesel is now 80 cents to a dollar more than regular unleaded, and diesel trucks are making over 300 horsepower and approaching 700 pounds of torque. Gas trucks are now catching up to the diesels in torque, with the Tundra at 401 and Chevy and Ford surely to surpass that number in the next year or two.


Our engine choices are becoming more and more powerful, yet the loads we need to tow aren't really changing.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

I'm glad to see that now you say that you have hand calculated and checked your numbers instead of going solely by the computer after you have routinely said you used the computer and then all of a sudden you questioned about how you got your mpg figures, hmm coincidence?

As I stated, "I DON'T doubt that your getting 18.5 mpg" however I do doubt 23 mpg, expecially at 65. Your RPM's can only get so low at a speed before you run out of power and the high 6th gear in the 6 speed starts hurting your mpg. I might believe it at 55 but even that is far fetched.

A persons driving style makes a big variable for the computer, driving all highway makes the computer think your using less fuel than you really are because your hardly accelerating or not at all, etc. It all goes back to grade school the teacher made you show your work. You've have the work to prove your answer. If you just go by what the computer says everytime then you'll never know your mpg because you have no proof of its answer. The overhead computers aren't and probably will never be correct unfortunately.

I somewhat agree with you that I wouldn't totally base my true milage on what the computer readout shows. I have had several vehicles with them and they were usually reading high, only once in a blue moon would they read lower than true, and often they would be close to true mpg but never did I find them to be totally accurate.

I do think he is telling the truth about his milage though. I am not sure going slower than 65 would hurt the milage due to the tallness of 6th gear, but 5th gear in this transmisison is also a locking overdrive too, so it is possible he manually took it out of 6th gear and put it in 5th and drove it in that gear. I manually put my truck in 5th gear when towing my enclosed trailer on the interstate. If he kept his speed at 60 mph and didn't have alot of hills to climb, I believe 23 mpg is possible under the right conditions.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

If you haven't tried out a new diesel you have no idea the difference there is in power. It is just amazing. Like I said in my other post, I would much rather have a truck that is more than capable of my needs that have one that is just barely capable and makes me nervous every time I use it. I always had that thought in the back of my mind if today was going to be the day my trans went out or something major was going to happen and leave me stranded.




Dave...

Dave, I have driven the newer diesels. And yes, they got goobs of power, no doubt about it. I see them on the interstates pulling loads that amaze me.

I just wish all the people who think this Toyota doesn't have the guts to the job, would be able to come here and drive the thing. I swear the day I brought it home I knew it was a powerful truck, but I was nervous about how it would deal with this big enclosed trailer I had also just bought. Almost immediately, as soon as I got out on the road with the truck and trailer I was stunned at how well the truck handles the trailer.

I agree that it is best to make sure you don't skimp on your tools, and you usually do get what you pay for. But I assure you, if you had the chance to drive my truck, pulling my trailer, you would not in any way feel like your overworking the truck or skimping on anything. I truely don't think there would be a appreciable advantage in using a diesel truck over what I am using, towing a trailer of the size and weight my trailer is.

Sure if my trailer was a 26 foot long gooseneck, with 6 ZTR's inside, well then the Diesel is really the only practical choice, but a relatively light 16 footer is no problems for my truck, and I suspect it wouldn't be a problem for the right late model of F-150 or Chevy and Dodge 1500's.

[GravelyGuy]

I'm glad to see that now you say that you have hand calculated and checked your numbers instead of going solely by the computer after you have routinely said you used the computer and then all of a sudden you questioned about how you got your mpg figures, hmm coincidence?

As I stated, "I DON'T doubt that your getting 18.5 mpg" however I do doubt 23 mpg, expecially at 65. Your RPM's can only get so low at a speed before you run out of power and the high 6th gear in the 6 speed starts hurting your mpg. I might believe it at 55 but even that is far fetched.

A persons driving style makes a big variable for the computer, driving all highway makes the computer think your using less fuel than you really are because your hardly accelerating or not at all, etc. It all goes back to grade school the teacher made you show your work. You've have the work to prove your answer. If you just go by what the computer says everytime then you'll never know your mpg because you have no proof of its answer. The overhead computers aren't and probably will never be correct unfortunately.

I said a couple of posts back that I checked by hand when it was new. I haven't checked it lately because the computer was only off by the tiniest bit. Really I wouldn't say it was the computer so much as the pump. I would be willing to bet that these computers are more accurate than your giving them credit for.

I will do my next tank by hand and the computer and see how it figures up.

I have absolutely no reason to lie about this so you can stop insinuating anytime.:dizzy:

[TXNSLighting]

This is to the guy that said I couldn't get 20-23 MPG.

Shell 87 at every fill up since new.

I dont care what that thing says. Those are never right. You need to hand calculate then get back to us.

[PlatinumLandCon]

Fuel economy?? Yeah, but can your tundra do this?

[Grass Happens]

Fuel economy?? Yeah, but can your tundra do this?

I think that's kinda the point lost in the thread, he doesn't NEED/WANT to do this. He is simply saying that for alot of us on here, that a gasser 1/2 ton would be the most economical solution to our problems. While you (and I) may want a sweet diesel to pull our lawn mower trailers around, and maybe some mulch, we dont so much need it. We can get by with less money for less truck. If you do pull a sweet skid steer or lots of materials around, then yes, a diesel is most economical; if your just hauling some mowers around to burn some grass, no.

[Grass Happens]

[QUOTE=GravelyGuy;2406660] Really I wouldn't say it was the computer so much as the pump. I would be willing to bet that these computers are more accurate than your giving them credit for.

QUOTE]

I had never thought of it like that, but I know here in IL or dumbass gov is making sure pumps are accurate; I dont wonder if that is part of the issue with the computers. I'm not saying they're not as full of BS as most politicians, but the pumps may have a part to play as well.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

I think that's kinda the point lost in the thread, he doesn't NEED/WANT to do this. He is simply saying that for alot of us on here, that a gasser 1/2 ton would be the most economical solution to our problems. While you (and I) may want a sweet diesel to pull our lawn mower trailers around, and maybe some mulch, we dont so much need it. We can get by with less money for less truck. If you do pull a sweet skid steer or lots of materials around, then yes, a diesel is most economical; if your just hauling some mowers around to burn some grass, no.

Thank you!!!! Thank you, thank you! :)

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

Fuel economy?? Yeah, but can your tundra do this?

I notice you have the skidsteer parked right over the trailers axles, not a little further forward as I would suspect it should be parked. I assume this is to keep the ass end of your truck from dropping down due to tongue weight.

Could my Tundra pull that load? I am willing to bet that it can, but it might not be legal and I would bet that your truck would get better milage pulling it. The only thing about it is I do lawn service and I have not seen a skid steer that is real good mowing lawns, so I doubt we will ever see if my Tundra can do that! :waving:

[GravelyGuy]

I would pull that skid no question.

[WH401]

I somewhat agree with you that I wouldn't totally base my true milage on what the computer readout shows. I have had several vehicles with them and they were usually reading high, only once in a blue moon would they read lower than true, and often they would be close to true mpg but never did I find them to be totally accurate.

I do think he is telling the truth about his milage though. I am not sure going slower than 65 would hurt the milage due to the tallness of 6th gear, but 5th gear in this transmisison is also a locking overdrive too, so it is possible he manually took it out of 6th gear and put it in 5th and drove it in that gear. I manually put my truck in 5th gear when towing my enclosed trailer on the interstate. If he kept his speed at 60 mph and didn't have alot of hills to climb, I believe 23 mpg is possible under the right conditions.

I don't doubt he's gettin 18.5, that's very resonable. 23 on the other hand though, is a flop.

[WH401]

I said a couple of posts back that I checked by hand when it was new. I haven't checked it lately because the computer was only off by the tiniest bit. Really I wouldn't say it was the computer so much as the pump. I would be willing to bet that these computers are more accurate than your giving them credit for.

I will do my next tank by hand and the computer and see how it figures up.

I have absolutely no reason to lie about this so you can stop insinuating anytime.:dizzy:


Factory computers are hit or miss, nothing more than a guess-timate. I'm not insinuating that your lieing, I'm saying that your believing that your getting better mpg than you are because you are only going by the computer. And it wasn't till after 2 posts of saying you need to hand calculate that you said yourself that you hand calculated when it was new, which would make anyone question whether you actually did.

[WH401]

I notice you have the skidsteer parked right over the trailers axles, not a little further forward as I would suspect it should be parked. I assume this is to keep the ass end of your truck from dropping down due to tongue weight.

Could my Tundra pull that load? I am willing to bet that it can, but it might not be legal and I would bet that your truck would get better milage pulling it. The only thing about it is I do lawn service and I have not seen a skid steer that is real good mowing lawns, so I doubt we will ever see if my Tundra can do that! :waving:

The reason you put the skid steer over the axles of the trailer is for proper balance. If you've got to make a sudden stop with the skid all the way forward, the inertia of the skid is going to want to push the tongue of the trailer even further down.

The wieght of the skid steer would certainly squat any truck if parked all the way forward. It would also certainly squat your truck way more than his 2500. Though, I have no doubt's that you truck could pull it, all I'm refering to is the load on the rear springs of a pickup.

[Lynden-Jeff]

I would pull that skid no question.

lol That load is over the tow capacity of a Tundra by atleast two tons, id like to see that lmao.

[jefftb]

This is what I cannot understand. I understand the OP's original point-but not the title or sentiment in which it was presented.

Sometimes gas is just fine what you are doing with it. In fact, in a lot of situations the gas engine is way more than enough-whether its a large block V8, V10 or standard 1/2 Ton truck like the Tundra or F150. For most people a gas engine is waay more than enough for the load its attached to. Case in point-today witnessed an F350 2008 Diesel Ex. Cab with a landscape trailer attached to it. The trailer had (2) ZTR's, (2) push mowers, (2) backpack blowers, (2) Trimmers, (2) Coolers and (2) men in the cab. This attached to an F350!?!?!? Need, want, or testosterone? I think the latter. This load would be easily handled by an F150, Tundra or Silvy 1500. But nooo, we need the diesel capability. I see this all too often-it might be a fishing/skiboat, (2) PWC's, or motorcycles, the list goes on and on.

For occasional tow'ers or lighter tow'ers gas engines are perfectly capable and the better choice on the cost of ownership metric. Why is this hard to accept? I've recc'd to several people asking me about which tow engine to go with that they select the gas engine-they did not tow much, often, or would not get the benefit of the diesel engine. In these cases the gas engine was the best choice for them.

For people like me and a good number of Lawnsite members, i.e. tow heavy and high miles, the diesel is the superior choice.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

The reason you put the skid steer over the axles of the trailer is for proper balance. If you've got to make a sudden stop with the skid all the way forward, the inertia of the skid is going to want to push the tongue of the trailer even further down.

The wieght of the skid steer would certainly squat any truck if parked all the way forward. It would also certainly squat your truck way more than his 2500. Though, I have no doubt's that you truck could pull it, all I'm refering to is the load on the rear springs of a pickup.


I wasn't suggesting his should park the skidsteer as far forward as the trailer would allow, but judging from his picture I would think it ought to be at least 2 feet further forward, so the proper percentage of overall weight is transfered to the tongue, this to help the trailer to tow stable and to lessen swaying on the highway.

Yes my truck will certainly squat more than his would! And the additional torque of his diesel engine would come into it's sweet spot towing a load that heavy, hence the reason I am sure he would get better milage. I do believe that if I hooked up to it, I could tow it. It would be over the towing limit for my truck though. But like I said I don't see a need to ever need to tow something like that around, and if I did get into landscaping I would want a dumptruck or flatbed work truck too, and would haul it around with that.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

I don't doubt he's gettin 18.5, that's very resonable. 23 on the other hand though, is a flop.

I wouldn't say it is a flop. I think under the right conditions it is possible, but is it something he can repeatedly do and be able to plan for.... No.

Most of the super great milage reports we read on here are usually extreme best case examples, possibly they had the best batch of fuel.... a tailwind.... more downhills than uphills... very light accelleration..... kept speed low.... possibly drafting a semi truck.... the right temp and humdity... etc...

Like I said, I remember one trip in my old Diesel Ram where I kept the speed no more than 55 and drove worst than anyones grandma and I was surprised with nearly 30 mpg on that trip, when that truck normally only got 16-17 mpg. I also remember taking my wifes 2003 Chevy Trailblazer, with the inline 6 cylinder, on a 50 mile trip out on the country roads on night, and being very careful to accellerate slowly and be as easy on the gas as possible and also got close to 30 mpg when that truck normally driven would only give you 16-20 mpg.

[WH401]

I wasn't suggesting his should park the skidsteer as far forward as the trailer would allow, but judging from his picture I would think it ought to be at least 2 feet further forward, so the proper percentage of overall weight is transfered to the tongue, this to help the trailer to tow stable and to lessen swaying on the highway.

Yes my truck will certainly squat more than his would! And the additional torque of his diesel engine would come into it's sweet spot towing a load that heavy, hence the reason I am sure he would get better milage. I do believe that if I hooked up to it, I could tow it. It would be over the towing limit for my truck though. But like I said I don't see a need to ever need to tow something like that around, and if I did get into landscaping I would want a dumptruck or flatbed work truck too, and would haul it around with that.

"I notice you have the skidsteer parked right over the trailers axles, not a little further forward as I would suspect it should be parked. I assume this is to keep the ass end of your truck from dropping down due to tongue weight."

Seems to me all you were worried about was boasting that your truck is better then his and could handle the load better.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

Well your wrong mister! :) Guess you wish that was my mission here... but it isn't. Don't even know why you would jump to that conclusion. Just didn't look like he had the load properly placed on the trailer. I guess when you have 3 axles it is less important to have the weight properly distributed.

[WH401]

I wouldn't say it is a flop. I think under the right conditions it is possible, but is it something he can repeatedly do and be able to plan for.... No.

Most of the super great milage reports we read on here are usually extreme best case examples, possibly they had the best batch of fuel.... a tailwind.... more downhills than uphills... very light accelleration..... kept speed low.... possibly drafting a semi truck.... the right temp and humdity... etc...

Like I said, I remember one trip in my old Diesel Ram where I kept the speed no more than 55 and drove worst than anyones grandma and I was surprised with nearly 30 mpg on that trip, when that truck normally only got 16-17 mpg. I also remember taking my wifes 2003 Chevy Trailblazer, with the inline 6 cylinder, on a 50 mile trip out on the country roads on night, and being very careful to accellerate slowly and be as easy on the gas as possible and also got close to 30 mpg when that truck normally driven would only give you 16-20 mpg.

23 even under rare conditions, is still unlikely. 30 in a Dodge Diesel, being as fuel efficient as they are, is highly unlikely as well. I know of only one person in a Dodge Diesel getting 30 mpg, and he routinely gets 30, is a guy in Maryland thats part of the MD DieselTruckResource Chapter with a 95' 12 valve, 2wd, 5 speed, with a gear vendors overdrive, 3.42 gear ratio, and a custom designed air dam in the front that rides low to the ground like a nascar car. Now I know the original thread was about how the fuel mileage of newer gassers is more practical than the higher cost of a diesel. But, if you were really worried about getting a lesser priced truck with better mpg then you could have just bought a used diesel for 10k with 1xx thousand miles and saved way more cash, but you didn't. If your going to buy a new truck, then yes a gasser probably would me more cost efficient that a diesel as long as you aren't towing the family farm with it. But new cars won't make you a millionaire, as a previous poster said.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

And jeeze.... why do I let myself get bothered by something someone with next to no info in their profile and only 18 posts says. Please fill out your profile guys.

[WH401]

Well your wrong mister! :) Guess you wish that was my mission here... but it isn't. Don't even know why you would jump to that conclusion. Just didn't look like he had the load properly placed on the trailer. I guess when you have 3 axles it is less important to have the weight properly distributed.

G, I guess I along with every other member of the forum, completely mis-read what you typed. How could I ever have been so right?:hammerhead:

[WH401]

And jeeze.... why do I let myself get bothered by something someone with next to no info in their profile and only 18 posts says. Shame on me! Like I said earlier in this thread about another poster who has nearly no info in his profile, how do I even know this poster is a adult and not a bored 12 year old taking a break from his Nintendo Wii?

Well thank you for the compliment, this is one 12 year old that likes being compared to someone with the knowledge of a 20 something year old.

[Rons Rightway Lawncare]

23 even under rare conditions, is still unlikely. 30 in a Dodge Diesel, being as fuel efficient as they are, is highly unlikely as well. I know of only one person in a Dodge Diesel getting 30 mpg, and he routinely gets 30, is a guy in Maryland thats part of the MD DieselTruckResource Chapter with a 95' 12 valve, 2wd, 5 speed, with a gear vendors overdrive, 3.42 gear ratio, and a custom designed air dam in the front that rides low to the ground like a nascar car. Now I know the original thread was about how the fuel mileage of newer gassers is more practical than the higher cost of a diesel. But, if you were really worried about getting a lesser priced truck with better mpg then you could have just bought a used diesel for 10k with 1xx thousand miles and saved way more cash, but you didn't. If your going to buy a new truck, then yes a gasser probably would me more cost efficient that a diesel as long as you aren't towing the family farm with it. But new cars won't make you a millionaire, as a previous poster said.

I considered a used diesel strongly before buying the new Tundra. I just couldn't find what I wanted for what I considered a fair price. In the end I am extremely happy that I bought what I bought, and I don't expect most of you guys to understand how nice the Tundra is if you haven't spent any time behind the wheel of one.

[TXNSLighting]

I considered a used diesel strongly before buying the new Tundra. I just couldn't find what I wanted for what I considered a fair price. In the end I am extremely happy that I bought what I bought, and I don't expect most of you guys to understand how nice the Tundra is if you haven't spent any time behind the wheel of one.

I finally spent time behind the wheel. and was not impressed. to cheap feeling inside. and i wasnt impressed with the power...

[SiteSolutions]

This is what I cannot understand. I understand the OP's original point-but not the title or sentiment in which it was presented.

Sometimes gas is just fine what you are doing with it. In fact, in a lot of situations the gas engine is way more than enough-whether its a large block V8, V10 or standard 1/2 Ton truck like the Tundra or F150. For most people a gas engine is waay more than enough for the load its attached to. Case in point-today witnessed an F350 2008 Diesel Ex. Cab with a landscape trailer attached to it. The trailer had (2) ZTR's, (2) push mowers, (2) backpack blowers, (2) Trimmers, (2) Coolers and (2) men in the cab. This attached to an F350!?!?!? Need, want, or testosterone? I think the latter. This load would be easily handled by an F150, Tundra or Silvy 1500. But nooo, we need the diesel capability. I see this all too often-it might be a fishing/skiboat, (2) PWC's, or motorcycles, the list goes on and on.


Had to chime in on this point... I see mismatched rigs all the time and it is always good for a chuckle. I love the Stretch Dualie F-350 with the 8 ft utility trailer with a single homeowner-grade riding mower; I see this guy every week or two. I think I saw a King Ranch setup like this last week! Must have $55,000 in the front end and another $1500 in tow (including trailer!)

My other favorite is the half ton with skid steer on trailer and a half yard of wet sand in the bed. A little scarier but still good for a laugh and the warm fuzzy feeling that if the DOT is lurking, at least they have someone else to pick on... I got behind this guy on my way home today... trying to pull a freakin backhoe on a tag trailer with an older cummins flatbed. Man was that thing sagging. Stopped on a hill at a stop sign, waiting to pull out on Hwy 53, stalled it on the first attempt. What a knucklehead. Finally got it rolling, probably smoked his clutch pretty good. I'm not trying to talk 541t about anyone's favorite brand; this dude was pulling about 3 or 4 tons more than he should have been pulling.

Anyway, I am all for matching the right truck to the load. I sometimes wish I had a little more truck but for as many diff things as my truck will do I think it is a good compromise. A half ton wouldn't do it. A F-450 or F-650 would be nice, if I had the money, but they wouldn't carry my wife and kids and wouldn't get as good mileage, etc. So for my 5 or 6 tons in tow, a one ton truck is a pretty good match. For a 1 to 3 ton load, I think a half ton gasser makes good sense. I even towed my first skid (8500 pounds with trailer?) with a half ton until I got a bigger truck, but i wouldn't recommend it.

[stroker51]

I agree with site solutions post above, especially the guys with 1 tons and homeowner mowers on a single axle trailer, there is one of those that I see every few days here and I just have to laugh. But for the guys with the one ton rigs and a mowing trailer with two Z's or whatever. If I had to have one truck instead of the 3 that I use (really good deals on most of them) I would have a Super Duty F350 or 450 4x4 regular cab, 7.3 Diesel automatic with a 10'-12' Flatbed with a hoist, snow plow, and salt spreader. This way I could do not only the mowing but mulch, dirt, brush, tree trimming, etc. all with one truck. The main reason I don't keep my Crew Cab, and get rid of my 96 F250 and 89 450 dump is that they are paid for first and foremost, and the old 96 has been just too good to me to get rid of, I'm just too attached.

[nosparkplugs]

Had to chime in on this point... I see mismatched rigs all the time and it is always good for a chuckle. I love the Stretch Dualie F-350 with the 8 ft utility trailer with a single homeowner-grade riding mower; I see this guy every week or two. I think I saw a King Ranch setup like this last week! Must have $55,000 in the front end and another $1500 in tow (including trailer!)

My other favorite is the half ton with skid steer on trailer and a half yard of wet sand in the bed. A little scarier but still good for a laugh and the warm fuzzy feeling that if the DOT is lurking, at least they have someone else to pick on... I got behind this guy on my way home today... trying to pull a freakin backhoe on a tag trailer with an older cummins flatbed. Man was that thing sagging. Stopped on a hill at a stop sign, waiting to pull out on Hwy 53, stalled it on the first attempt. What a knucklehead. Finally got it rolling, probably smoked his clutch pretty good. I'm not trying to talk 541t about anyone's favorite brand; this dude was pulling about 3 or 4 tons more than he should have been pulling.

Anyway, I am all for matching the right truck to the load. I sometimes wish I had a little more truck but for as many diff things as my truck will do I think it is a good compromise. A half ton wouldn't do it. A F-450 or F-650 would be nice, if I had the money, but they wouldn't carry my wife and kids and wouldn't get as good mileage, etc. So for my 5 or 6 tons in tow, a one ton truck is a pretty good match. For a 1 to 3 ton load, I think a half ton gasser makes good sense. I even towed my first skid (8500 pounds with trailer?) with a half ton until I got a bigger truck, but i wouldn't recommend it.

sweat, We have a guy like that around here F-350 King Ranger dually diesel & sears craftsman rider & handheld equipment on a single axle tilt trailer with 3 guys in the truck?:laugh:. When I was purchasing our 02 f-350 back then the ford guy said the King Ranger edition was not really a contractor truck the fine grade interior leather would leave marks from your jeans rivets etc, lots of guys were really pissed off about how the interior wore when used for Lawn Care work etc. The King Ranger is more of a "Hot Shot" truck or long interstate hauling get in the cab & stay for hours on end. I guess if you got the money go for it right:clapping:

[WH401]

Had to chime in on this point... I see mismatched rigs all the time and it is always good for a chuckle. I love the Stretch Dualie F-350 with the 8 ft utility trailer with a single homeowner-grade riding mower; I see this guy every week or two. I think I saw a King Ranch setup like this last week! Must have $55,000 in the front end and another $1500 in tow (including trailer!)

My other favorite is the half ton with skid steer on trailer and a half yard of wet sand in the bed. A little scarier but still good for a laugh and the warm fuzzy feeling that if the DOT is lurking, at least they have someone else to pick on... I got behind this guy on my way home today... trying to pull a freakin backhoe on a tag trailer with an older cummins flatbed. Man was that thing sagging. Stopped on a hill at a stop sign, waiting to pull out on Hwy 53, stalled it on the first attempt. What a knucklehead. Finally got it rolling, probably smoked his clutch pretty good. I'm not trying to talk 541t about anyone's favorite brand; this dude was pulling about 3 or 4 tons more than he should have been pulling.

Anyway, I am all for matching the right truck to the load. I sometimes wish I had a little more truck but for as many diff things as my truck will do I think it is a good compromise. A half ton wouldn't do it. A F-450 or F-650 would be nice, if I had the money, but they wouldn't carry my wife and kids and wouldn't get as good mileage, etc. So for my 5 or 6 tons in tow, a one ton truck is a pretty good match. For a 1 to 3 ton load, I think a half ton gasser makes good sense. I even towed my first skid (8500 pounds with trailer?) with a half ton until I got a bigger truck, but i wouldn't recommend it.

I agree, alot of guys you see either have too much truck or too much trailer, but in the end too much truck is always better.

[SiteSolutions]

Saw this dude again this morning. Brand new Dodge 2500 4x4 Cummins, nice truck, pulling a 6 foot long utility trailer with a Kubota riding mower with 36" deck. The tongue on the trailer had to really reach for the hitch ball, the trailer looked more like a short towable ramp it was inclined so much... Gotta love it.

I think the trailer said Fisher Price on the side...

[TXNSLighting]

sweat, We have a guy like that around here F-350 King Ranger dually diesel & sears craftsman rider & handheld equipment on a single axle tilt trailer with 3 guys in the truck?:laugh:. When I was purchasing our 02 f-350 back then the ford guy said the King Ranger edition was not really a contractor truck the fine grade interior leather would leave marks from your jeans rivets etc, lots of guys were really pissed off about how the interior wore when used for Lawn Care work etc. The King Ranger is more of a "Hot Shot" truck or long interstate hauling get in the cab & stay for hours on end. I guess if you got the money go for it right:clapping:

whats a king ranger??!

[greendoctor]

whats a king ranger??!

I think he means a King Rancher edition. What I cannot stand seeing are these 3/4 or 1 ton trucks, usually gas, that are not used for work at all. They are show cars. It cost the owner about $50,000 to buy, then another $10,000-30,000 in modifications, including removal of the mufflers to place twin straight pipes. I call those pipes ******* pipes. They are a source of noise pollution. Come to Hawaii, and you will see lots of that. Wasteful consumption of materials, waste of fuel and noise pollution.

[GravelyGuy]

I filled up today and I took a picture of my odometer reading showing a full tank of gas and I took a pictures of the electronic MPG read out after I reset it to 0.0 MPG.

I will take another pic of the reciept and odometer when I fill up again in a couple of days to prove that the computer is accurate.

These will be mostly towing miles so if anything would confuse the computer I would think this would do it.

How much do you want to put on the line WH401?:laugh:

[GravelyGuy]

Here is the first set.

[WH401]

I filled up today and I took a picture of my odometer reading showing a full tank of gas and I took a pictures of the electronic MPG read out after I reset it to 0.0 MPG.

I will take another pic of the reciept and odometer when I fill up again in a couple of days to prove that the computer is accurate.

These will be mostly towing miles so if anything would confuse the computer I would think this would do it.

How much do you want to put on the line WH401?:laugh:

I don't think there needs to be a bet as you already conceded. You just said that the towing will confuse your computer to make it act off, there for trying to cover yourself from the fact that it really is off.:laugh:

[GravelyGuy]

I don't think there needs to be a bet as you already conceded. You just said that the towing will confuse your computer to make it act off, there for trying to cover yourself from the fact that it really is off.:laugh:

I think it will be within 1/2 of a MPG easily. We'll just have to wait.

[TXNSLighting]

I think he means a King Rancher edition. What I cannot stand seeing are these 3/4 or 1 ton trucks, usually gas, that are not used for work at all. They are show cars. It cost the owner about $50,000 to buy, then another $10,000-30,000 in modifications, including removal of the mufflers to place twin straight pipes. I call those pipes ******* pipes. They are a source of noise pollution. Come to Hawaii, and you will see lots of that. Wasteful consumption of materials, waste of fuel and noise pollution.

its king ranch. good gosh

[mower&more1986]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXA22Q0qXNM&eurl=http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2007/07/checking_back_w.html

[greendoctor]

its king ranch. good gosh

My bad, don't see many of those around here. Lots of F250 Lariats and F350's, owned of course by people who totally do not need them.

[Grass Happens]

when you have mow 20 yards a week just to cover your quad cab xlt f450 with ramps and an mtd rider in the back, you may want to reconider your business plan.
I will take pictures of this guy, he's not that old, so maybe he was just laid off, but i thought that was kinda ridiculous, maybe when get my new trailer, I'll give him mine so he doesn't look so bad.

[GravelyNut]

Had to chime in on this point... I see mismatched rigs all the time and it is always good for a chuckle. I love the Stretch Dualie F-350 with the 8 ft utility trailer with a single homeowner-grade riding mower; I see this guy every week or two. I think I saw a King Ranch setup like this last week! Must have $55,000 in the front end and another $1500 in tow (including trailer!)

My other favorite is the half ton with skid steer on trailer and a half yard of wet sand in the bed. A little scarier but still good for a laugh and the warm fuzzy feeling that if the DOT is lurking, at least they have someone else to pick on... I got behind this guy on my way home today... trying to pull a freakin backhoe on a tag trailer with an older cummins flatbed. Man was that thing sagging. Stopped on a hill at a stop sign, waiting to pull out on Hwy 53, stalled it on the first attempt. What a knucklehead. Finally got it rolling, probably smoked his clutch pretty good. I'm not trying to talk 541t about anyone's favorite brand; this dude was pulling about 3 or 4 tons more than he should have been pulling.

Anyway, I am all for matching the right truck to the load. I sometimes wish I had a little more truck but for as many diff things as my truck will do I think it is a good compromise. A half ton wouldn't do it. A F-450 or F-650 would be nice, if I had the money, but they wouldn't carry my wife and kids and wouldn't get as good mileage, etc. So for my 5 or 6 tons in tow, a one ton truck is a pretty good match. For a 1 to 3 ton load, I think a half ton gasser makes good sense. I even towed my first skid (8500 pounds with trailer?) with a half ton until I got a bigger truck, but i wouldn't recommend it.

Hey now, I resemble that remark. Sometimes. I tow a 4X6' trailer behind my Silverado ext cab 3500DRW. Can't even see the trailer in the mirror but it is esay to walk into a tight space, even with a mower onboard. But for bigger stuff, I have a 6X16' utility. And to really make a long combo, a 39' travel trailer that goes on the Resse hitch. Think semi lenght combo. You can never have too much truck, but you can have too much load.

[GravelyGuy]

I'm pretty amused with the results.

[GravelyGuy]

12,793-12,574 = 219 Miles to tank.

219/19.536 Gallons = 11.21 MPG