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landscaper9929
07-02-2008, 08:20 PM
Guys quick question. Got a new client (I mainly do maintenance mowing etc) and was doing an audit on there system last Fri. There seems to be a zone that runs constantly. Obviously this is keeping the rest of the zones from working do to the pressure loss from the zone that wont shut off. I am assuming the valve has gone bad in regards to the zone in question. Would you say that is a fair assumption. I will be locating the valves after the forth and have done little investigating on the system to this point. The thing that seems strange is that the zone that is running all the time never fully pressurized. Now I didn't go through all the zones so maybe I never got to this one. It's hard to tell cause it's a very large property and there could have been another zone trying to run besides the ones I did see. Anyway any in put would be appreciated. I'd like to have a little idea of what to look for before Mon when I head out to locate the valves.

lawns Etc
07-02-2008, 08:38 PM
Sounds like some dirt in the diaphram take the valve apart and wash it out and reasemble

Mike Leary
07-03-2008, 10:27 AM
Check the solenoid port as well.

landscaper9929
07-03-2008, 08:32 PM
Check the solenoid port as well.

Thanks Mike I will. So tell me why do you think the zone in question never fully pressurized?

landscaper9929
07-03-2008, 08:35 PM
well I'm pretty sure it is the valve. Just hope I can find fairly easy. I also hope it can be repaired. Arround here we are all pvc and most all valves are slip to slip and glued in so to replace them you have to cut them out and that's a pain but you do get paid

Mdirrigation
07-03-2008, 10:34 PM
I am just wondering , if you are qualified to do an irrigation audit , why are you asking a question about a stuck valve?

well I'm pretty sure it is the valve. Just hope I can find fairly easy. I also hope it can be repaired. Arround here we are all pvc and most all valves are slip to slip and glued in so to replace them you have to cut them out and that's a pain but you do get paid


Hoping you can find it , and hoping it can be repaired . To repair it ( if it is the valve it could be the controller or bad wiring) you have to find it . Glued in valves arent a any more of a problem than threaded valves . The best way to lose a good customer it to take on work you dont do well

Waterit
07-04-2008, 12:41 AM
Thanks Mike I will. So tell me why do you think the zone in question never fully pressurized?

My guess, bad diaphragm. Sometimes you can cheat by just replacing valve guts.

CAPT Stream Rotar
07-04-2008, 07:44 AM
My guess, bad diaphragm. Sometimes you can cheat by just replacing valve guts.

thats not cheating!

its called good service work!

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-04-2008, 08:03 AM
thats not cheating!

its called good service work!


Ditto.....

CAPT Stream Rotar
07-04-2008, 08:10 AM
Ditto.....

I get a call yesterday...Bad head...Well me and my hoss get to the job..i scout the back area while he is having face time with the H/O..I find a very leaky patch of grass on the edge of the turf..Lowest head on the zone...Not thinking I go to the truck grab a pgp, and come back to the head all while my partner is talking to the H/O..

I pop my shovel in the ground for a second and notice that water is still coming out of the head....Now I know the the zone was not running cause the rest of the lawn is cooked..I wipe a few handfuls of water from the pgp a few times and notice that constantly fresh clean water is coming through the dirty merk that has been sitting..You know what I'm talking about....

BINGO!!!!!!!

stuck valve...find the valve box, put my ear to the Hunter PGV,I think, and hear a slight weap...All in the matter of 5 mins....I replaced the valve in 15 after we tried to flush and bleed the debris out..turns out a small pebble was stuck under the diaphram.

It felt good to get a compliment from a 20 year vet on that one...Made my day...

:cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2:

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-04-2008, 08:23 AM
I get a call yesterday...Bad head...Well me and my hoss get to the job..i scout the back area while he is having face time with the H/O..I find a very leaky patch of grass on the edge of the turf..Lowest head on the zone...Not thinking I go to the truck grab a pgp, and come back to the head all while my partner is talking to the H/O..

I pop my shovel in the ground for a second and notice that water is still coming out of the head....Now I know the the zone was not running cause the rest of the lawn is cooked..I wipe a few handfuls of water from the pgp a few times and notice that constantly fresh clean water is coming through the dirty merk that has been sitting..You know what I'm talking about....

BINGO!!!!!!!

stuck valve...find the valve box, put my ear to the Hunter PGV,I think, and hear a slight weap...All in the matter of 5 mins....I replaced the valve in 15 after we tried to flush and bleed the debris out..turns out a small pebble was stuck under the diaphram.

It felt good to get a compliment from a 20 year vet on that one...Made my day...

:cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2:

You are putting two and two together. The pup I had last summer is on his second summer with me and he has improved by leaps and bounds. I turned him loose on a system while I worked the phone in the truck for an hour. He got everything but one minor detail. It is awesome watching people learn.

CAPT Stream Rotar
07-04-2008, 08:25 AM
You are putting two and two together. The pup I had last summer is on his second summer with me and he has improved by leaps and bounds. I turned him loose on a system while I worked the phone in the truck for an hour. He got everything but one minor detail. It is awesome watching people learn.

I agree 100%..


I'm sure the AC was on!

lawns Etc
07-04-2008, 12:31 PM
Exactly you should never have to replace an entire valve unless the housing is broken or the glue joint failed unless you cannot get parts to do so.I just keep a few of all available manufactures valves in the truck and steal parts off as needed. You have to work smarter not harder.

Waterit
07-04-2008, 12:41 PM
You have to work smarter not harder.

The voice of experience:)

Kiril
07-04-2008, 01:07 PM
You are putting two and two together. The pup I had last summer is on his second summer with me and he has improved by leaps and bounds. I turned him loose on a system while I worked the phone in the truck for an hour. He got everything but one minor detail. It is awesome watching people learn.

Billing = 100/hour
Out of pocket = 10/hour
Sitting in an air conditioned truck when it is 100 degrees outside = priceless

TPendagast
07-04-2008, 01:22 PM
around here we have alotof old Irritrol bolt on style valves, we cant get them any more all the dealers carry jar tops.

Irritrol is ALWYAS failing around here, crappy clocks, crappy heads (always the wiper seals) and crappy valves.

I always get stuck replacing the bolt top Irritrols. But hey it keeps me in Business

Wet_Boots
07-04-2008, 01:39 PM
around here we have alotof old Irritrol bolt on style valves, we cant get them any more all the dealers carry jar tops.

Irritrol is ALWYAS failing around here, crappy clocks, crappy heads (always the wiper seals) and crappy valves.

I always get stuck replacing the bolt top Irritrols. But hey it keeps me in BusinessReplacing a valve you can always get parts for seems a bit of a waste.

landscaper9929
07-04-2008, 01:55 PM
I am just wondering , if you are qualified to do an irrigation audit , why are you asking a question about a stuck valve?

well I'm pretty sure it is the valve. Just hope I can find fairly easy. I also hope it can be repaired. Around here we are all pvc and most all valves are slip to slip and glued in so to replace them you have to cut them out and that's a pain but you do get paid

Hoping you can find it , and hoping it can be repaired . To repair it ( if it is the valve it could be the controller or bad wiring) you have to find it . Glued in valves arent a any more of a problem than threaded valves . The best way to lose a good customer it to take on work you dont do well

Qualified? Look I don't do irrigation repair on a daily bases so I get out of practice. Down hear only full time installers do. I have enough experience to know how to do an audit. I feel sure it is a faulty valve just was asking for a little help from the guys who do it everyday. As for repairing it versus replacing it I am well aware of how to do both. who can't unscrew the top half of a valve and replace it with a new on. But if the housing is damaged and you have to replace the entire valve and it is glued then you have to use a slip fix. Unless you know of some kind of pvc that stretches. It's just a little more work that's all I was saying.

As for finding it I'm sure all your clients have as built right. Well this property is fairly mature with a ton of Ivy growing in the natural area very close to where I assume several of the valves are. And as I'm sure you are aware they can be anywhere. I'm sure they are not manifolded either. To give you an idea what I'm dealing with, I found on one of the zones a rb1812 pop up in the middle of this large turf area and I think it is on a zone with rotors just want know everything till I get the zone valve repaired. Trust me I can do the work I assure you. This is not my first valve repair it's just that I don't do it everyday. But thanks for your advice on the wiring I appreciate it.

landscaper9929
07-04-2008, 01:56 PM
thats not cheating!

its called good service work!

I agree who wants to cut it out if you don't have to!

TPendagast
07-04-2008, 02:45 PM
Replacing a valve you can always get parts for seems a bit of a waste.

i said i cant get prts everyone says they dont carry them any more

Wet_Boots
07-04-2008, 03:18 PM
i said i cant get prts everyone says they dont carry them any moreI don't know where you get your supplies, but if you can get a 2400 jar-top, then you can get the 205 valve and you can also get the diaphragm assemblies. But it might mean you have to order them in, and maintain your own service inventory.

TPendagast
07-04-2008, 05:45 PM
Well first understand the nearest supply of irrigation parts is 2 and a half hours away. We are located in the resort community of McCall Idaho. It is similar to Sun Valley or Tahoe but 20 years ago.

The valley/gorge you have to drive up to get here makes the location isolated similar to marthas vineyard or a smaller hawiian island.

There used to be (about 5 years ago) ONE (count it one) professional landscape outfit/nursery. The owner a woman, knew sqaut about jack about most things as she was simply self taught with not so much as a freind with expereince in the industry.

She was able toget irritrol parts because an outfit called pipeco was willing to make the 5 hour round trip to deliver parts once a month.

Pipeco sold Irritrol (I heard some story about how rainbird and hunter wouldnt distrubute to them but I never heard the whole story).
So every thing old around here is littered with Irritrol, It's not a brand I spent much time with.
I;ve mostly spent my time in irigation in utah and colorado and rainbird is by far the most common although I prefer hunter personally.
If I could get Hunter reliably Id be installing it, however the hunter folks down in boise arent up to snuff and for some reason dont carry the stuff reliably (theyll have ICC clocks instock but indoor and not outdoor, or you order an outdoor and they send you an indoor)
SO pretty much both the major places that sell and deliver up here will send you rainbird.
When I first started on this articular porject about a month ago, they had about 18 irritrol hs1200s that had bad wiper seals. I ordered hs1200s and I got rainbird 1812s.
What I wanted to do was simply screw off the top of the head and swap the guts out as per what anyone else would do (why dig up a 12 when you dont have to)
So I sent the 1812's back talked to the sales manager on the phone about and toldthem to make sure they sent IRRITROL.
the order came back up and they were rainbird 1812s!!!!! arg
I dug them all out and replaced them.
I called back pretty angry and it was explained to me they no longer caried the irritrols because they sat on the shelf for 4 years and they returned them for credit, they wont be carrying irritrol heads any more.
Same place carrys only irritrol jar tops, they dont carry any parts, guts or diaphrams for the irritrol bolt top but you can get solenoids because they are the same.
The other place in boise carrys only hunter (very limited) or rainbird also, no irritrol.
Pipeco has since gone out of business.

I COULD order things I need off the internet but the delivery is extremely unreliable.

The though has actually one through my mid of starting my OWN small dealership for parts up here. Everyone can get pipe, poly etc. But for repairs and service it is murder up here.
A local plumber retired two years ago, his place is up for lease its still stocked up with all the regular household typr plumbing inventory. I was thinlking about talking to him, having my wife staff the place and work somthing out with the dealer down in boise to open a satellite in the plumbing store with me.

That would make my life easier.

Out of the 5 or 8 other places up here that do irrigation, there is no one who carrys inventory anymore... I used to work for a place that did keep inventory but the mexican help raided it so badly you coudl never find anything reliably in the trailer.

Wet_Boots
07-04-2008, 05:58 PM
Sometimes you wind up buying whole goods and parting them out, and actually saving money in the bargain. The Richdel R204 valve (now known as the Irritrol 205) will almost certainly be repairable for the forseeable future, like it's been for over 35 years, so you might want to have the parts to do so. One hopes that UPS can deliver to your location, if distributors aren't up to snuff.

TPendagast
07-04-2008, 06:20 PM
hmmm maybe i should take a pic of this valve to make sure its that same valve.
Why would the dealers (both of them) tell me it was discontinued if its not?

The valve is seriosuly unreliable, im not 100 certain i really want to put my name on a repair. They fail all over town. Ive never sen so many of one type fail.
Ive done plenty of vavle repairs, just not this many in the last two years and only of this brand. They seem rather inferior as well, although I like the on/off lever they have instead of 1/4 twist on the solenoid or using a bleed screw when you manually test the valve.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-04-2008, 06:23 PM
hmmm maybe i should take a pic of this valve to make sure its that same valve.
Why would the dealers (both of them) tell me it was discontinued if its not?

The valve is seriosuly unreliable, im not 100 certain i really want to put my name on a repair. They fail all over town. Ive never sen so many of one type fail.
Ive done plenty of vavle repairs, just not this many in the last two years and only of this brand. They seem rather inferior as well, although I like the on/off lever they have instead of 1/4 twist on the solenoid or using a bleed screw when you manually test the valve.

Sounds like a weathermatic solenoid issue. What color is it?

Waterit
07-04-2008, 06:23 PM
Whew!

Opening your own supply house sounds good if you have the market for it. Just remember 1 thing: for customers, you'll be dealing with homeowners who have not hte 1st clue what they need, and the likes of US!

Wet_Boots
07-04-2008, 06:47 PM
hmmm maybe i should take a pic of this valve to make sure its that same valve.
Why would the dealers (both of them) tell me it was discontinued if its not?

The valve is seriosuly unreliable, im not 100 certain i really want to put my name on a repair. They fail all over town. Ive never sen so many of one type fail.
Ive done plenty of vavle repairs, just not this many in the last two years and only of this brand. They seem rather inferior as well, although I like the on/off lever they have instead of 1/4 twist on the solenoid or using a bleed screw when you manually test the valve.Old Richdel valves never had any manual operator except the bleed screw. One identifier of the R204 is the plate beneath the cover screws. Imitators rarely, if ever, used it.

Remember, the valves are decades old, and usually need a diaphragm assembly for another decade or so of continued operation. I usually recommend changing all the diaphragm assemblies, once an original one fails.

TPendagast
07-04-2008, 06:47 PM
No they are definately irritrol. Ive ordered solenoids for them. just no other parts.
If I can find a vavle box thats actually opoperly installed I can see the word irritrol on the side of them.
Half the ones in town are jar top 2400s the others are older style bolt tops, but other than that, extremely similar valves.

If it were up to me, idrip everything irritrol out of the entire town and then pass a ban on any further installation of the brand.

BUT if I opened my own store, Id loose out on all the sales of parts every year or the repair of this junk

Wet_Boots
07-04-2008, 07:03 PM
Dude, Richdel/Irritrol may be more reliable than anything else you'll ever install. Trouble is, if they outnumber everything else by more than ten-to-one, and are the oldest stuff out there, they will comprise the most valve failures. There were some Irritrol valve problems when it was first being manufactured by Toro, but the guys they bought it from, also messed up when they altered the Richdel design.

I still don't think their solenoids are as good as they might be, but at 20+ years service, one can't gripe too much.

By the way, just because an Irritrol solenoid fits, doesn't mean you have an Irritrol/Richdel valve.

TPendagast
07-04-2008, 07:31 PM
well like i said they say irritrol on the side. I know who installed them, I know where she bought them from and I know that place exclusively sold irritrol.
HS series heads are not as good or reliable as 1800series or hunter pro sprays, the irritrol clocks are clearly inferior to rainbird/hunter (and everyone including the property owners up here hate them) and as I said the valves are crapping out like crazy. Last area I worked on cannot be more than 5 years old because the property manager was there whn it was built and hes only been working there 6 years. The irritrol valves in that one area alone (there are 20) more than half of them either stick on, stick off (ie dont go on when the clock tells it to) or weep. I can clean them, but they are on again off again. Like I said Id love to just replace diaphrams if I could get them.

The clocks are such junk, boards are burnt, transformers fried, 1/3 of the zones on the boad wont work and so on... I have half the clocks replaced there already. Cant wait till I can get rid of them all.

In 10 years with working with rainbird IVenever seen this rate of failure, and ive seen hunters which have never been replaced or repaired.

However... the valve problem COULD have something to do with WHO was doing the maintenance on all these places before me (which would also attribute to why so many blown wiper seals on the hs series as well) Their winterizing practices have definately been called into question.

Wet_Boots
07-04-2008, 07:53 PM
Poor winterizing changes everything. You are not looking at the Richdel valves that became the standard (and was the one design that the knockoffs would copy) and still work today, some 30-odd years after they were installed. You might have Toro's bad batches of Irritrols, before they wised up.

As long as the valve bodies aren't cracked, you could just swap out the guts. Maybe even use the 205F to do it with, and get the flow control with it.

TPendagast
07-04-2008, 07:57 PM
ok get them where seeing as I cant get them "locally", no nothing is cracked, but I think they ran what too much air pressure for waaay to long throuh the zones to winterize. (whic would explain th melted wiper seals and the torn/worn diaphrams and other wired little oddities (warped 3/4" drip etc)

CAPT Stream Rotar
07-04-2008, 08:02 PM
well like i said they say irritrol on the side. I know who installed them, I know where she bought them from and I know that place exclusively sold irritrol.
HS series heads are not as good or reliable as 1800series or hunter pro sprays, the irritrol clocks are clearly inferior to rainbird/hunter (and everyone including the property owners up here hate them) and as I said the valves are crapping out like crazy. Last area I worked on cannot be more than 5 years old because the property manager was there whn it was built and hes only been working there 6 years. The irritrol valves in that one area alone (there are 20) more than half of them either stick on, stick off (ie dont go on when the clock tells it to) or weep. I can clean them, but they are on again off again. Like I said Id love to just replace diaphrams if I could get them.

The clocks are such junk, boards are burnt, transformers fried, 1/3 of the zones on the boad wont work and so on... I have half the clocks replaced there already. Cant wait till I can get rid of them all.

In 10 years with working with rainbird IVenever seen this rate of failure, and ive seen hunters which have never been replaced or repaired.

However... the valve problem COULD have something to do with WHO was doing the maintenance on all these places before me (which would also attribute to why so many blown wiper seals on the hs series as well) Their winterizing practices have definately been called into question.


The irritrol jartops are a great bargain...Works great...IMHO equal to the RB dv100, with a less cost around here.

TPendagast
07-04-2008, 08:10 PM
only these arent jar tops, they are the older ones with bolt tops

CAPT Stream Rotar
07-04-2008, 08:31 PM
only these arent jar tops, they are the older ones with bolt tops

Understood, I was just saying that the jartops are a great product for the $..

I have serviced the valve you are talking about and understand your situation..

take some pics if you ever get some repair parts!

TPendagast
07-04-2008, 08:33 PM
Capt, by the way... this thread and the other one are referencing the SAME property....you can imagine my frustration

CAPT Stream Rotar
07-04-2008, 08:35 PM
Capt, by the way... this thread and the other one are referencing the SAME property....you can imagine my frustration

dude, thats a tough spot to be in..
@ least its all poly i hope...R1p that Sh11t out and put in new that you can warranty with no worries!

you might turn a good coin.

Kiril
07-05-2008, 01:01 AM
Dude, Richdel/Irritrol may be more reliable than anything else you'll ever install.

Damnit, I have to agree with Bootsies. :hammerhead:

Wet_Boots
07-05-2008, 06:32 AM
Damnit, I have to agree with Bootsies. :hammerhead:(hurts, don't it :wall)