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View Full Version : Wirring Issues please advise


landscaper9929
07-11-2008, 07:34 PM
Guys I could use a little help with this. Let me give you a little background on the situation. The system is about 15 years old with toro valves and an RB RC clock. When I run the system I have a zone that runs constantly. I figure bad valve. I 521 and locate the 1st manifold (3 valves) zones 1,2,&3 here is where it all goes to crap. 12 strand to the 1st manifold then for some reason spliced into single strand exiting the box. I disconnect the splice and start to 521 each hot. I locate the MV and 1 more valve. The last valve I locate (using 521) is across the driveway. I continue locating as I know there should be 5 more valves. I follow the signal, it turns and runs parallel to the right drive however I loose tone and null and start getting a ton of feedback. This happens no matter which hot I'm hooked to. Now I'm still learning the 521 so not sure why I'm loosing tone. Now not being familiar with toro valves generally RB around here.I have a question. If I run zone 2 and turn down the Flow Control zone 1 starts up. I did this to the MV & sprays near by the valve popped up (rb1812s) and all the way even though the zone that wont shut down is on. Now I know by closing the flow Im in essence forcing the water towards the other valves however if there closed no water should get past the valve. So is it possible that most if not all of the valves are bad. If so fine I will replace, however I need to locate the others. Using a fault locater I locate a fault near the drive, excavate and find a mess. Looks as though whoever made the changes and spliced into the 12 strand did it at the sleeve too. I did not however find the fault. I cut out the splice and reconnected it (weird connectors looked like conduit pic below) and will be putting it in a valve box Mon. As I was reconnecting it the heavens opened so I had to leave but before I did notice the wires were all scorched (power surge?) Didn't have time to check for voltage. So now what I want to know is if the wire is bad how will I 521 the rest of the valves. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

114215

114217

CAPT Stream Rotar
07-11-2008, 07:58 PM
::backs out of thread::

::slowly::

hey, if i didn't have a date with a hottie id try to help...ttyl

landscaper9929
07-11-2008, 08:09 PM
::backs out of thread::

::slowly::

hey, if i didn't have a date with a hottie id try to help...ttyl

Thanks rotor, I got a date too, maybe you can help later how about it hehe

Mike Leary
07-11-2008, 08:09 PM
There is a time to start over: you might be close after looking at the wiring.

londonrain
07-11-2008, 08:58 PM
My M.O. is if it worked at one time, I can get it back working...... Start with the valves you know are not work correctly and fix them and move on to the next problem...

Mike Leary
07-11-2008, 09:16 PM
Start with the valves you know are not work correctly

Wanna ride the golf cart up here with the 521 & help me? What was that film
of the the guy & his riding mower on the road?

Waterit
07-11-2008, 10:24 PM
Wanna ride the golf cart up here with the 521 & help me? What was that film
of the the guy & his riding mower on the road?

I think it was George Jones, the country singer. They took away his license, so he drove his mower to the liquor store:drinkup:

CAPT Stream Rotar
07-12-2008, 10:01 AM
Wanna ride the golf cart up here with the 521 & help me? What was that film
of the the guy & his riding mower on the road?

slingblade?

Wet_Boots
07-12-2008, 10:17 AM
Wanna ride the golf cart up here with the 521 & help me? What was that film
of the the guy & his riding mower on the road?The Straight Story (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0166896/) - I miss Richard Farnsworth.

AmEdge
07-12-2008, 10:44 AM
MMmmmmmm.....what a lovely mess.

First impression would be a bad solenoid. Did you try replacing the solenoid for the valve that will not shut off?

Perhaps open the valve to see if there is some debris trapped?

As far as the rest of that mess, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

landscaper9929
07-12-2008, 03:11 PM
There is a time to start over: you might be close after looking at the wiring.

Mike,
In the case of that pic it's not as bad as it looks. I have already clened up that bo in regards to the wires. I need to locate howeve the rest of the valves. If the wire is bad can you 521?

landscaper9929
07-12-2008, 03:15 PM
MMmmmmmm.....what a lovely mess.

First impression would be a bad solenoid. Did you try replacing the solenoid for the valve that will not shut off?

Perhaps open the valve to see if there is some debris trapped?

As far as the rest of that mess, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Let me clarify. I can't locate the valve in question. The valves I have located seem to be fine exept for the fact that when I turn the flow down it opens other valves, are they bad? Why else could I force them open by simply turning other valves down?

Mike Leary
07-12-2008, 03:16 PM
If the wire is bad can you 521?

The smart cookies can, with lots of experience, me?, I can only locate a
"live" valve (hearing jacked from too much rock 'n roll).

AmEdge
07-12-2008, 04:40 PM
Let me clarify. I can't locate the valve in question. The valves I have located seem to be fine exept for the fact that when I turn the flow down it opens other valves, are they bad? Why else could I force them open by simply turning other valves down?

Bad solenoid, debris in valve, bad diaphragm, etc. you said it was 15yrs old system. Could be any of those, or all of those combined.

You said only one valve is stuck on right? But you cannot track it? Did you use 521 or not?

landscaper9929
07-12-2008, 04:51 PM
Bad solenoid, debris in valve, bad diaphragm, etc. you said it was 15yrs old system. Could be any of those, or all of those combined.

You said only one valve is stuck on right? But you cannot track it? Did you use 521 or not?

Yes only one is stuck on. But when I 521 the single strand coming out of the valve box I can only track it so far. I get a good tone then eventually I loose it and it becomes bad feedback.

Mike Leary
07-12-2008, 04:55 PM
I get a good tone then eventually I loose it and it becomes bad feedback.

You are close to the valve, start probing before the feedback. Older systems
with bullet-proof solenoids were often buried without v.b.s.

landscaper9929
07-12-2008, 06:40 PM
You are close to the valve, start probing before the feedback. Older systems
with bullet-proof solenoids were often buried without v.b.s.

Sounds like a plan. However I besides the stuck valve I need to locate 4 more valves. I guess since I get the same feed back no mater which hot I'm hooked to they may be manifolded together. However to this point only the first three were manifolded the rest have been alone in 6" rounds. Now I still don't understand why when I turn down the flow control on one valve it forces another valve to open. Am I to assume the valves are bad? I mean there is no other reason for the valve to open.

Mike Leary
07-12-2008, 06:51 PM
I mean there is no other reason for the valve to open.

Feel the pain, if you've been following my 521 thread, I know.
I think you've got crap in the diaphragm or the the solenoid port +
solenoid gone south. :dizzy:

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-12-2008, 11:31 PM
Feel the pain, if you've been following my 521 thread, I know.
I think you've got crap in the diaphragm or the the solenoid port +
solenoid gone south. :dizzy:

You know Mike, I've been telling Henry this story about your unfound valve. I told Henry I'd love to send you to Wash to find this valve for my Buddy Mike Leary. (He's 24) He said I don't know, I'd hate to be humiliated in front of the irrigation world. I told him"Henry you'd find that valve!" I'll send him to Seattle/ If he finds the valve within one working day you pay his fare. If he doesn't (We'll give him 8hrs(negotiable of course.)) I'll pay his fare. You need to pick him up at the airport and bring him back and let him sleep in your Airstream.

Mike Leary
07-12-2008, 11:40 PM
He said I don't know, I'd hate to be humiliated in front of the irrigation world.

Hey!, I've been out front with my failure to locate, no one else should feel
weird about it, tho it is one of those Lloyd's of London deals...."no cure,
no pay". Hell, we don't even have a clue about briskets up here.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-12-2008, 11:57 PM
Hey!, I've been out front with my failure to locate, no one else should feel
weird about it, tho it is one of those Lloyd's of London deals...."no cure,
no pay". Hell, we don't even have a clue about briskets up here.

It's your call. I'm being a little over the top here so I'm not gonna hold you to it. This is the internet after all but I will send Henry if you want. I've been wanting to expose him to a little more out there anyway and for a musician/irrigation talker he would be a great house guest. (Just don't try and hire him:realmad::gunsfirin)

Mike Leary
07-13-2008, 12:11 AM
It's your call. I'm being a little over the top here so I'm not gonna hold you to it. This is the internet after all but I will send Henry if you want. I've been wanting to expose him to a little more out there anyway and for a musician/irrigation talker he would be a great house guest. (Just don't try and hire him:realmad::gunsfirin)

Is Henry THAT GOOD? Hank is worse than I am, & his guy is not close to
being prime time. If I can't find it after the grounds crew clears me a path,
it will be cheaper to fly Henry up here than rip the zone end to end.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-13-2008, 12:14 AM
Is Henry THAT GOOD?


He is a great house guest. He is very good at valve locating. I'd expect him to find it.

Dirty Water
07-13-2008, 02:38 AM
You won't get him back. He will be forever tainted by the pacific northwest.

He will come back and manifold all your valves.

txgrassguy
07-13-2008, 03:11 AM
[QUOTE=AmEdge First impression would be a bad solenoid. Did you try replacing the solenoid for the valve that will not shut off?



[/QUOTE]

If it was a "bad" solenoid, the valve wouldn't ordinarily open in the first place.
Due to the age of the system I'd immediately suspect a malfunctioning valve assembly - I would replace the whole valve assembly with a new valve - not just change the internal parts.
The feed back you are receiving is the 521 "loosing" the signal all together - sounds kind of like a really weird noise similar to a screeching tone. This happens when the integrity of the insulation on the wires has broken down resulting in a grounding signal as the pulse the 521 is emitting is sent directly into the soil. Becomes much more apparent in clay based soils that are wet or when near tree roots. Or this happens when you are off the signal and this screeching tone is telling you to return to the last place you had a good signal and try again.
I always have a can of turf paint and wand and mark the wire path so I can easily return to the point where I lost the signal and try again.
One other thing to try is to locate a valve you know is okay, hook into that common wire and trace the signal from there.
One really important point to consider is that you may have more than one common wire depending on how the system was originally installed and the feedback you are receiving is an indication you have located past the terminal point on that common wire. Go back to the multistrand and look to see if any other of the colored wires are hooked to a 16 gauge white wire as white is typically supposed to be the universal color for the common wire.
Like Fimco always preaches, check to make sure you have fresh batteries in the 521 too.
Some thing else you can try is to open the RC controller panel itself and tie the red lead off of your 521 directly to that power wire on the suspect valve and trace directly from there. In this instance use a short probe (I use a stainless pair of tweezers) and ground the black lead on the 521 into the house ground - with a better ground your signal path will be much clearer.

CAPT Stream Rotar
07-13-2008, 07:41 AM
You know Mike, I've been telling Henry this story about your unfound valve. I told Henry I'd love to send you to Wash to find this valve for my Buddy Mike Leary. (He's 24) He said I don't know, I'd hate to be humiliated in front of the irrigation world. I told him"Henry you'd find that valve!" I'll send him to Seattle/ If he finds the valve within one working day you pay his fare. If he doesn't (We'll give him 8hrs(negotiable of course.)) I'll pay his fare. You need to pick him up at the airport and bring him back and let him sleep in your Airstream.


I bet Henry could find it..

Kiril
07-13-2008, 10:27 AM
hey, if i didn't have a date with a hottie id try to help...ttyl

Rotar's date. What a hottie. :laugh:

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=90340&d=1191208005

AI Inc
07-13-2008, 10:35 AM
Rotar's date. What a hottie. :laugh:

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=90340&d=1191208005

Is it still called a " date " when it only lasts 3 minutes?

Kiril
07-13-2008, 10:47 AM
Is it still called a " date " when it only lasts 3 minutes?

Good question. At least you won't have to wine and dine it first.

AmEdge
07-13-2008, 11:57 AM
If it was a "bad" solenoid, the valve wouldn't ordinarily open in the first place.

"Ordinarily" a bad solenoid will come on but not shut off. It usually gets stuck in the "on position".

landscaper9929
07-13-2008, 02:38 PM
If it was a "bad" solenoid, the valve wouldn't ordinarily open in the first place.
Due to the age of the system I'd immediately suspect a malfunctioning valve assembly - I would replace the whole valve assembly with a new valve - not just change the internal parts.
The feed back you are receiving is the 521 "loosing" the signal all together - sounds kind of like a really weird noise similar to a screeching tone. This happens when the integrity of the insulation on the wires has broken down resulting in a grounding signal as the pulse the 521 is emitting is sent directly into the soil. Becomes much more apparent in clay based soils that are wet or when near tree roots. Or this happens when you are off the signal and this screeching tone is telling you to return to the last place you had a good signal and try again.
I always have a can of turf paint and wand and mark the wire path so I can easily return to the point where I lost the signal and try again.
One other thing to try is to locate a valve you know is okay, hook into that common wire and trace the signal from there.
One really important point to consider is that you may have more than one common wire depending on how the system was originally installed and the feedback you are receiving is an indication you have located past the terminal point on that common wire. Go back to the multistrand and look to see if any other of the colored wires are hooked to a 16 gauge white wire as white is typically supposed to be the universal color for the common wire.
Like Fimco always preaches, check to make sure you have fresh batteries in the 521 too.
Some thing else you can try is to open the RC controller panel itself and tie the red lead off of your 521 directly to that power wire on the suspect valve and trace directly from there. In this instance use a short probe (I use a stainless pair of tweezers) and ground the black lead on the 521 into the house ground - with a better ground your signal path will be much clearer.

Well I could use the common from another valve. But I'm not sure if any are working 100% correctly. What I'm going to do 1st is check the solenoids then check the voltage on the wire for each valve (that I can find).

As for the common. Yes they did splice the common from the 12 strand to single. It exits the box in 2 places, however the area where the manifold is
(1st pic) has one more valve hence the second exit point for the common. The other exit point follows the path I'm eventually getting the feedback on. Path: Leaves VB heads to drive 90's hits MV 90's crosses drive, 15 feet from drive (after exiting sleeve) picks up 2 valves then 90's over to main entry drive, 90's and runs along drive 100 ft or so then feedback begins.

Let me add this, after it picks up the last 2 valves and before the last right turn it crosses right up against a large tree. Meaning it runs directly under the root of a 20-25' tree. Now this may or may not matter because I'm getting good tone so I would assume to this point everything is good.

Now I'm going to vent a little. I don't understand why they went to single strand in the 1st place. However at least keep things as constant as you can. For example all the colors used in the 1st splice don't match on the other side. Now I understand splicing at both sides of the sleeve as there was no room to add the single strand and I'm sure impossible to remove the 12 strand without removing and putting back the Main Line. But how hard is it to keep the colors consistent? :cry:

landscaper9929
07-13-2008, 02:41 PM
Rotar's date. What a hottie. :laugh:

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=90340&d=1191208005

Hey Rotar you just going to sit and take that? :nono:

CAPT Stream Rotar
07-13-2008, 02:48 PM
Rotar's date. What a hottie. :laugh:

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=90340&d=1191208005

we are going kayaking today...

PIcs=proof...

Krili=wishing he was me

landscaper9929
07-14-2008, 01:28 AM
guys I'll be heading to this valve mess Mon any last minute advise?
*trucewhiteflag*
:confused: