WHERE ARE YOU GUYS GETTING $ 50.00 A MHR ?

[BRET]

WE OPERATE A COMMERCIAL FULL SERVICE LANDSCAPE MANAGEMENT CONTRACTING FIRM IN CENTRAL FLORIDA. I'M WONDERING JUST FOR INFO WHERE IN THE WORLD YOU GUYS GET $ 50.00 A MANHOUR FOR LAWN SERVICE. IS THIS UP NORTH AND IF SO HOW IS THE COST OF LIVING. WE ARE LUCKY TO BID AT $ 30.00 A MHR. AS A EXAMPLE I SEND 3 MEN TO DO A MEDIUM SIZE APARTMENT COMPLEX AND IT TAKES ABOUT 24 MHRS. WE ARE LUCKY TO GET ABOUT $ 2400 A MONTH FOR IT. TRU GREEN LANDCARE AND THE BIG BOYS ARE BIDDING AT ABOUT $ 25.00 A HOUR AND I DONT THINK THOSE FIQURES WOULD WORK IN FLORIDA. WE DO ABOUT $ 30,000.00 A MONTH BUT I SWEAR I SPEND $ 28,000.00 A MONTH ON EXPENSES. ANY BODY HAVING THE SAME PROBLEMS OR AM I DROWNING IN THIS BOAT BY MYSELF BECAUSE I SWEAR I CANT WAIT TILL WINTER TO MAKE SOME MONEY. THANKS BRET

[Scag48]

Don't feel bad, I mow at $15.00 an hour. Everyone I mow for are penny pinchers. Heck, they don't want me to trim every week otherwise it would be quite a bit more. I'm cheap mowing, but I nail the price to their door for trimming and extra jobs. Got some areation to do. HEHE

[esland]

Bret,<br>I have wondered the same thing myself, I have even heard of guys getting $70.00 to $90.00 per man hour for maintenance (maybe includes using very large mowers, I don't know). Here in Chicago I am struggling to get $25.00 to $30.00 per man hour (Although our labor is fairly cheap)All the contractors in this area look at me in disbelief when I mention other operators getting this kind of $$ per man hour. I have to wonder if this is on a consistent basis. Sounds too good to be true.

[curlawngreen]

You can either fish or cut bait. Why mow 10 yards per day for a net of $30.00 when you can mow 5 yards for a net of $100.00?

[River Hill]

Here in central Maryland it is very easy to get $70.00 per hour. Even at those rates I have to turn away work. My problem is finding good workers at $11.00 to $13.00 per hour.

[osc]

I never discuss hourly rates or time with my customers. We mow or work by the job and speed is my problem and none of their business. I buy big equipment to go fast, not to putt-putt around so the customer can feel like he's getting his money's worth.<p>On a few occasions I've had people comment that we didn't take very long and that seemed to trouble them about the money we made per hour. That is when I point out the equipment on the trailor and how much it costs, and if it's going to be an issue then we cannot service you're account.<br>Afterall, the work is quality and the job is done just as we promised, it's none of their business how long it takes unless it takes too long.<br>In my area though, Trugreen is nothing and they give such poor service that they can't get a foothold here. It's too far from their home base. On the work I have seen them quote, it wasn't that cheap.<br>I think that you lose when you talk about cost per man hour with the customer. I'm truly sorry to hear about your expenses, Bret. That volume is too high with too much headache to not make a nice chunk in profit.<br>In June, we did just over 30k and profitted atleast 21K.

[BRET]

I AGREE ABOUT NOT TELLING A CUSTOMER ABOUT TRUE COST. HERE IS A BREAK DOWN OF A MONTHLY BILLING<p> $ 30,000. INCOMING<br> 8 MEN AT @ 300.00 WK $ 3000 WK $ 12,000.<br>WORKERS COMP $ 300 WK $ 1200.<br>NEXTEL $ 700.00 <br>PHONES $ 500.00<br>TRUCK PAYMENTS $ 1250.00<br>INSURANCES $ 500.00<br>TRUCK INSURANCE $ 600.00<br>GAS $ 2000.00<br>REPAIRS/PARTS $ 1000.00<br>NEW PURCHASES $ 3000. TO $ 5000.00<p>AND OTHER THINGS @343448888888******!!!!!!!

[GrassRoots Lawn Care]

Bret, <p>I am also located in Central Florida. There are jobs where we get $50-70 per man hour, but that's not our average. We average about $30 per manhour for maintenence & $40-100 for light landscaping and palm trimming. I run a two man crew in a tight service area. Remember, Florida is a very low C.O.L. state with lots of elderly, $50 per manhour AVERAGE would be hard to attain. <p>----------<br>Mike Reynolds,<br>GrassRoots Lawn Care, Florida

[Charles]

Thats the problem when in some areas of the country. You have a large company afraid to turn down business and lose customer because they have to keep all those employees busy. Willing to take whatever the customer will pay them. Not what they need to make a decent profit on every job. Customers know this is a very competitive business. And that lawn service companies are willing hurt each other just to get their business. Volume companies will be shocked when their lazers ,choppers go down within 5 years and they have to replace them at that days prices. If you don't replace a old machine it will nichol and dime you to death with repairs and down time. Mr Phagan talked about this in an earlier post. We have to look around at other types of business and demand similar pay. Now with this forum it is a definite eye opener to what other companies are making and we can all learn from it about what we should be making. I can tell you I dont see how anyone makes.it at 25$ per hour. Well wait a minute I can tell you how SOME do in MY area. They hire people from the gutters of life and do sloppy work. They short change the customer any way they can. Any time they can and they pay no taxes, no insurance etc. And I guess they make a nice profit this way.<br><p><font size="1">Edited by: Charles

[SLC INC]

We bid all of our Mowing, fertilizing, and clean-up jobs by the job. Any extra work like tree work we do by the hour (39.95 an hour plus parts or dump fee) On avg. any maintenance jobs I need to make 30.00 a man hour to break even. I kept track on clip every mow jobs man hour, and we avg. anywhere from 40 to 60 dollars a man hour. Than I kept track everydays total income and divide it by the total man hours it took. That gets me the total man hours for that day. Doing it this way will include drive time, lunch, and etc. We avg. anywhere from 32.00 to 48.00 (if everything ran smoothly)for our total man hour. Our big money is aeration. We can make anywhere from 50.00 to 100.00 per man hour.( I'm not kidding)<br>BUT! <br>To get good help I need to pay 10.00 to 15.00 dollars an hour plus Some bennies.<br>HERE IS THE REAL KILLER!<br>Here in the great state of Minnesota I will pay about 40% of my profit to taxes!<br>SO<br>You guys might be better off then me<p>Scott's Lawn Care Inc.<br>Minnesota where a wrestler thinks he can be a governor!

[curlawngreen]

Why own your business and work for penny. It seems to me your stepping over dimes to pick up a penny.

[Getmow]

When we figure jobs it is based on 30-$35 an hour. These figures arn't discussed with the customer. We also add in for paperwork and agrevation(if necessary). When the jobs are done we usually average a WHOLE lot better because of equipment and the workers.

[BRET]

YOU KNOW IN THINKING ABOUT NEGATIVE COMMENTS, I WONDER IF YOU REALLY CAN COMPARE ONE OPERATION AGAINST ANOTHER. EVEN THOUGH I GET ANGRY ABOUT OUR BUSINESS I AM ALWAYS THINKING TO THE FUTURE. TODAY I HAVE A BUSINESS THAT I CAN SELL IF THE OPPORTUNITY IS THERE. I KNOW THAT WHEN I WAS A SOLE OPERATOR I MADE $ 60,000. A YEAR. THATS NICE BUT THERE IS NO EQUITY IN THAT. HARD TO SELL ACCOUNTS WHEN THERE IS NO CONTRACTS. HOPE THINGS LOOK UP FOR US . LOOKED AT A CITY CONTRACT TODAY THAT WOULD PAY $ 10,000.00 A MONTH. WOULD MOVE US TO $ 40,000.00 A MONTH IN MAINT. WOULD SUCK IF IT WASN'T RENEWED. THANKS FOR MAKING ME FEEL LIKE I'M SPINNING MY WHEELS. I STILL CUT GRASS EVERY DAY LIKE EVERY ONE ELSE. JUST A WHOLE LOT OF IT. GREEN SIDE UP!

[Toddppm]

Osc, i agree with you 100 percent, i never mention an hourly rate on any work. But you're making a 70% profit?????Find it real hard to believe.What's your secret?

[greenlawncare]

Bret, hard to sell a business that is barely profitable. Only way to sell it would be to break it apart. To be completely honest, I probably would think twice at buying any business with a 7% profit margin.<p>Don't forget that your equipment isn't an expense...only the depreciation is. Add in all your equipment's depreciation and you might actually find you are &lt;B&gt;LOSING&lt;/B&gt; money. Careful.<p><br>

[scottlawns]

I too am in MN,and i do not tell my custumers what i charge,i bid all jobs except clean up before i do the work..most all jobs i do i get over 50.00 a hour and for clean ups i charge 60.00 a hour.i dont tell the customer what my hourly is but when im done i figure my man hours and charge 60.00 a hour,never had a complaint yet.but when you do your clean ups with walkers and greatdanes its alot faster than some guy with his 36in...so he might charge 30a hour but we are done in half the time,<p>scottlawns

[Dale]

Bret, <p>How can you include new purchases and equipment in your monthly operating expenses?? Have you heard of capital purchases and depriciation?? Do you lease or finance your equipment ?? How will you replace it ?? I would suggest you retain the services of a good accountant ??<p>I alluded to this fact in an earlier post.. Are you making more money than if you sold every piece of equipment you have (everything) and took that money and invested it conservative, would you be better off?? <p>Hell, cd's are paying 6.8% at one of ouor local financial branches. We are doing about 49K a month in maintenance, and theres no way in hell the owner would let me spend that kind of CASH on purchases of capital items every month.

[osc]

Toddppm:<br>I am out there everyday with 2 crews running as hard as we can go and if I see something slow down then I tell one crew to pack up and get to the next job while I take care of whatever is left. I have 3-4 employees depending on who shows up that week.<p>Here is another thing about my operation: I don't have my employees weedeat that much. Why? Because they suck at it. Show me an employee somewhere over yonder with a weedeater in his hand and I'll show you money down the toilet. The only time employees weedeat is when they do it right next to me and they better be able to jog and do it. And they do because they want to keep up with the boss.<br>What if your mowing crew never had to trim or blow, how many accounts could they do in a day? Keep the mowers running and you've got revenue coming in. Shut them off and the money stops, end of story.<br>Trimming and blowing is work but I'm the best paid weedeater you will ever see. I'm 32 and I can run 50 yards in 5.8 seconds and I'm not about to let some slowpoke dictate the growth of my company. Anyone can ride a mower fast, so that's where I keep them.<br>I am in the business of speed as much as lawncare. When an employee starts with us I tell them how to be fast first then work on quality. Why? Because if their work sucks I can go back over it quicker than I can explain it to them, when we get back in the truck there is plenty of time for that. <br>It works for me.

[MOW ED]

My advise to you is to get in touch with Bill Phagan (top of page) and have him help you get a handle on things. Good Luck.

[Charles]

I have seen some employees put put slowly along riding on a mower too. They also tend to leave alot weedeating space. Also better to use them on safe properties where they can't hit or run over something. I had a john deere at one point. Warned the employee that the pins came out of the deck wheels sometimes and to look at them every once and awhile. Well the whole bar and wheel came off when he got caught up in a bush. he cut for the longest without it and then came back around and ran over it lol. Well it wasnt funny when I had to drive an hour and get another one. Employees can screw up mowing too.

[turfquip]

<br>I like OSC's approach. The owner is always the most efficient detail man. There are dozen's of excuses why employees suck at weedeating (and blowing). Not all employees of course, but high turnover is a reality in this business. Teach 'em how to run the mowers and do it well. It's the machine they prefer anyway. <p>I've had guys stop every minute or two to wipe the splatter off their legs. There's no time for that. If the owner can stay behind the mowing crew - in a chase vehicle doing trimming, blowing, customer communications ..... seems like a good idea.<p>Two more things. It amazes me how many guys I see out there weedeating without safety glasses. It seems to be tolerated by LC owners - large and small. I can't think of a more high risk injury scenario. There should be a ZERO tolerance policy in place regarding this. Eye injuries are one of those sneaky little mice that can wipe out a day, a week's profit's, whatever. <p>We can see the elephants coming down the road and prepare....it's the mice that get you in this business. (Pardon the metaphor)<p>Second, Osc, I wish there was a weedeating contest. I'm older than you and I'll bet I can stay with you. I'll even use my Toro TC3100 :)

[Charles]

The biggest problem with letting them ride on the mower. Is that you are their boss and you are working harder than they are lol. I thought the best part of being a boss was that you got to do the easy work and pay some flunky to do the hard stuff. Well when you get over 40 you be telling them to egt their azz off that mower and that will be the day they quit because you have them spoiled.

[jeffyr]

turfquip,<br>In a previous entry you wrote&quot; I wish there was a weedeating contest.&quot;<br>What kind taste best ? I like a good thistle salad, how 'bout you ?<p>Sorry for the break from the serious folks....now back to the regularly scheduled programing.

[turfquip]

<p>I like polk. Sativa is O.K. too ;)

[Scraper]

For some reason I agree with you Charles! :)<p>Oh yeah...to add to the original post...average $50+/hr mowing here in the Philadelphia area and have some clients where I do plain landscape maintenance (i.e. pruning, edging, and just making sure everything looks good. No cutting as they like to do that part) where I just charge a flat rate of $45-50/hour.

[osc]

Turfquip: I know about that sativa weed.

[Toddppm]

I am waiting to hear from Phagan about checking out my bus. cause i know i'm not making what i should. I grossed about 25,000 last month, about 8 of that mowing, have no idea how much i made or the co. I have no intentions of following my guys around cleaning up after them.Besides i definately can't run that fast! We make most of our money right now doing landscaping + tree work, that's were i'm at every day. Maybe i should go out with the mowing guys once or twice a week, haven't done that since early last year. It's a pain cause i have 2 new guys right now , been trading them off to learn the mowing route.guess i will make time.<br>MowEd, post about phagan to me or osc?, seems like osc has his bus the way he wants it , running with the crews making serious profit. I always heard most businesses make an average 15-20% profit????

[BRET]

I THINK THAT I DIDN'T EXPLAIN MY QUESTION RIGHT. I'M ASKING IF ON A COMMERCIAL MONTHLY MOWING CONTRACT. IF YOU DECIDE IT WILL TAKE 20 MANHOURS ARE YOU ABLE TO CHARGE $ 50.00 X 24 MHR FOR A TOTAL OF $ 1000.00 PER CUT ? THIS WOULD BE OVER $ 4000.00 FOR A 24 MHR PROPERTY. NO APARTMENT HERE IN FLORIDA WILL PAY THAT. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT RESIDENTIAL MOWING OR CLEANUPS. THAT IS WHERE WE MAKE GOOD MONEY. WE DROPPED THREE 60 FOOT TREES IN 5 HOURS AND I MADE $ 1250.00 . BUT MY CREW THAT WAS ON THE SAME PROPERTY ONLY MADE $ 350.00 FOR THE DAY. I JUST WANTED TO KNOW FROM ANY ONE ELSE THAT IS RUNNING MORE THAN 4 TRUCKS IF THEY ARE ALSO HAVING PROBLEMS. BILL PHAGAN TOLD ME THAT HIS L.M.O. WAS 40 EMPLOYEES AT A MILLION AND HE CLEARED OVER $ 100,000. THATS IS STILL 10% PROFIT. I BELIEVE THAT WHEN YOU START GROWING YOU REALLY HAVE TO SUFFER FOR A WHILE. WHEN I'M TALKING ABOUT MONTHLY INCOME I'M TALKING ABOUT NUMBERS THAT STAY CONSTANT. DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE I'M COMING FROM OR AM I JUST BURNED OUT FROM STRESS.

[thelawnguy]

i can get 60-100/hr as a solo operator but co's running crews get 60+/hr for a two man crew, I can do as much myself as two minimum wage slackers workin for the man.<p>Bill

[BRL]

Bret,<br>The problem could simply be a matter of crew efficiency. If no apartment in Fl will pay $4,000month for maintenance and maybe they are paying $3,000month, maybe the companies doing that work are only using 15 man hours compared to the 24 man hours you mention. Something to consider.

[SLSNursery]

Bret - I understand where you are coming from, and can only offer the following: Some of the replies base profit on different numbers than the ones which are relevant. For instance, a business run by a sole proprietor is not really making 70% unless the owner draws nothing. In other words, to replace that person might cost $40,000-60,000 per year, and there goes the profit. I don't say this to get anyone mad, its just the fact. If any of those sole proprietors wanted to work for me, they would request that amount of money or more based on their perceived ability. I sense that in your case, as is mine, the business is an entity, enhanced by our presences, not only dependent upon us. While I am not in a position yet to up and leave, the work could certainly continue without me. For the past couple of years though, the workload has required an 'all hands on deck' feel at our shop. <p>It also should not matter how much money other people charge - large company or small. We review our hourly charge all the time to make sure that it fits our overhead and costs. This way, I can purchase new equipment when we need it, and it will fit into our system. We often explore leasing, rental purchase, and financing in order to keep our taxes down, and leave as much money as possible in the business. Get a handle on all of your annual costs and expenses (look at stuff with a magnifying glass, don't assume you spend x dollars for equipment each month). Once you determine the amount you spend per man hour add your desired mark up and then you will have trouble convincing yourself to continue taking low profit margin jobs. In addition, you will free up time to pursue the more lucrative portion of your operations. We keep plenty of 'bread and butter' commercial maintenance at the rates we want to get because lately there is so much to choose from. Then we try to manage the man hours appropriated to each job in order to maintain the predicted margin. From there, the more lucrative landscaping, tree, pesticide, etc. work develops. <p>One last note. I found that we used to assume that since we owned an item(like a backhoe, Truck, mower, or even weedwacker), there was less cost associated with that item. This was a mistake. If you intend to own and maintain new(er) equipment, you need to carefully factor the costs of these items into your per hour calculations, or your equipment costs calculations. <p>----------<br>Phil Grande - Soundview Landscape Supply - http://members.aol.com/slsnursery<br>Ivy League Landscaping - http://members.aol.com/scagrider

[thelawnguy]

&quot; For instance, a business run by a sole proprietor is not really making 70% unless the owner draws nothing&quot;<p>I think you meant to say &quot;solo operator&quot;. A sole proprietor may have many employees (not saying its good accounting practice, but its done) and LLCs can be solo operators as well.<p>Heres the big plus for solo operators(also can be a big downside): since the solo operator IS the business, whatever is left after expenses is profit-70% 3% whatever. But the downside is, say something happens, death injury et al, there goes the business all thats left is whatever the equipment is worth. I know that, if I died today, by the time things got sorted out there would be no customers left to sell just a trailer full of used equipment to haul to the auction.<p>Bill

[ProMo]

I almost went under last winter wife had a baby no insurance my largest job all souls church and cemetery in sanford decided to drop us after 8 years (probably a good thing from what they would pay)etc etc i was at a last resort and went to Bill Phagans seminar spent my last dime to attend and was amazed at the mistakes ive made he looked awfully familiar turns out that when i was going to an electronics school in tampa i worked for him,He had a huge company doing some really nice commercial propertys anyways i still havnt implemented a lot of his techniques etc was ready to write my first contract and my printer died ive been busy working on my costs time it takes to do things etc but my existing customers are impressed with the changes i have made and im going to get some time off for same or more pay was servicing my resis 51x a year going down to 42 max ive told this to most of my customers and so far they accept it.Went to see bill again last week to take my spray test now to pay for it with everything breaking but i believe he saved me from certain doom. Ive been mowing lawns for 20 years 10 on my own but never learned the art of running a biz special thanks to Bill Phagan http://www.greenindconsulting.com

[CSRA Landscaping]

There's something to be said for working smarter not harder. One guy with the right equipment can run a neat, tidy, and profitable business. Two guys (one owner, one well-payed employee), both quailty-conscious, with the right equipment, can do some serious damage. More than five can't seem to find the cord to start one weedeater before 10 minutes is up.

[Russo]

Bret,

We deal with the multifamily ( apartment ) market here, and you are not the only one scratching your head.

$50 man/hour is unheard of for such work. The problem is that the competition is fierce because one monthy mowing bill is worth as much 100 residential in one drop of the tailgate. Generally, $30 a man/hour is closer to reality and most Managers of these properties decide their budget for landscaping on a "per door" basis. Meaning that if it's a 150 unit complex, they expect to pay X amount per door. $10 = $ 1,500 monthly landscape budget. Thay will actually say to you when you give them a quote," Hey, that's $13 a door! That's way too much". It's a rule of thumb that has turned into an industry standard unfortunatley.

So you are right on when you say that "they won't pay that much". Right now, the multifamily market is working in reverse: IE, the Manager/Owner decides on a budget for landscaping and then choses a landscaper accordingly. There are exceptions, but this is the general rule.

Also, these managers change every couple of months and the new one always says " Lower your price or you are gone. I've got 3 bids lower than yours." It's a rough market, and one basket that you don't want all of your eggs in.

10% is cool, but you got to do that couple million in work a year to run at that percentage and still make some cheese. We run 14 crews, 12 mowing and 2 landscaping. It is truly a myth that the bigger you get, the lower your expenses.

[smburgess]

Strange how people think......

ALL my clients know what I charge per manhour. Always felt this was the way to do business, never had a problem.

[robert payer]

When it comes to man hour rates, daily revenue, or lawns cut per day many peers in the industry will flat out right lie. If you are getting $30.00-$40.00 per man hour consistently in the Cleveland area you had better be something special and have select clients. Hand pick your clients wisely. Professionals want to employee professionals. Had a unique client tell me the other day in business conversation say " If you wanted to double my price it would be paid with out batting an eye. If you trippled my price fair value would need to be determined"

Guys, can you let me know what the quote "With out batting an eye" really means?

[RMDoyon]

"Without batting an eye" means that he literally wouldn't even blink if you doubled his price.
Its an expression meaning that a shocking act wouldn't phase someone in the least.

Roger

[CLM1103]

"Without batting an eye" is southern for"I don't care"

[MATTHEW]

When I think of $/per/hr, I consider the entire day. Not just time on the job. Prep time can kill ya. Drive time can kill ya. A burnt engine from a lazy employee will kill ya.

I always say " don't tell me how much you make... tell me how much you spend". The bottom line is the only # that matters.

I will assume that most posters here are the owner/operators. What matters is the money you take home. If you are losing money per hr on any job, you might be better off to trim the job and the extra help. You might impress someone by your gross figures, but look at what you have to deal with.

Generally, the bigger the company, the lower the profit margin. The larger the headaches.

I don't see any reason that you cannot achieve $50/hr on your work provided that you run efficient equipment, hire competent help, and ONLY take on jobs worth the time.

Good luck.

[brucec32]

Part of your problem/situation is that you of course have to send 3 guys to do the job, not yourself. First of all, they won't produce like an owner-operator will, so they won't bring $70/hour, of course. Second, sometimes a 3 man crew is less efficient, since a lot of time is spent waiting on others to finish a task, BS'ing, etc. Try experimenting with crew size.

I charge a fixed price, of course but it works out to $52-60/hour for my time on-site, sometimes more on jobs I bid well or when homes are grouped together on a street. But I work alone, am super experienced, efficient, waste no time, work fast, don't take breaks on site, and don't mess around. No way you'll get that type of productivity out of a guy making $10/hour. He simply has no incentive to work like that. I use a lazer Z hp 48" mower, so that's worth more than a guy with a walk behind, too. I can edge precisely at a fast walking pace with just a string trimmer, while some guys have to have a stick edger, which means they have to make one pass trimming, and stop and grab another tool and make another pass to edge. I can blow a drive at a brisk walking pace most of the time. I see a lot of lawn techs standing still with a blower, waving it around. Molasass! Ability and know-how counts in terms of your billing potential, even at something as seemingly simple as mowing lawns. The old guy who used to cut my parents' lawn took 1 1/2 hours and didnt' even edge the drive. I can do it better and edgeit too in about 45 minutes. The key is how productive you are, not how long you're there.

I've found that, based on my casual observations over the years, a two man crew of "employees" , unsupervised, will produce roughly what a one man owner-operator will in a given period of time. It depends on the type of job, of course. I timed one crew unloading their trailer before starting a job. 5 minutes before a mower was touching grass! That's .25 man hours for zero production. Hard to average $60/hour with that level of productivity.

If they could only clone owners, we'd all make more money.

[brucec32]

I think you guys with employees, given the caliber I'm hearing about out there, are the bravest men on earth. I don't see how you do it. I'd have ulcers. I got into this biz to avoid the ulcers I had from the corporate world. One where I could toss better salaries and benefits at workers and they still weren't all that hot.

I chuckled at the line , something like "I have 3 or 4 crews, depending on who shows up that week". LOL. Scary.

My biggest risk not having employees is my getting hurt. But we have a two income family and would be fine till I found something else to do.

[brucec32]

Matthew made a good final point. Be SELECTIVE in what type of jobs you take on. Make sure your equipment and personnel mix is a good match for it. Use ZTR's? then why take on a bunch of apts. with tiny islands of grass and no open spaces, but lots of trim work and blowing? I know not every big operator can afford to be picky, with overhead to meet, but you have to consider what your goals are. If it's to have a big company, there are certainly more glamourous and profitable businesses than this one. Why kill yourself 70 hours a week to make $80,000 if you can get by on a 40 hour week and $60,000?

Example: I only take on Tall Fescue customers (longer growing season, easy to mow, mows faster, less edging, no bagging, hides flaws so no complaints), avoid lawns that require push mowing with a 21" mower (I make more sitting on my arse on a rider than I can produce huffing it behind a walk mower). I minimize the amount of "manual labor" done by not advertising shrub and cleanup type work. I want to be paid for what my equipment can do (high $$$), not what my aging back can do (low $$$). I figure if you spend your day stooping in beds picking weeds, you can be replaced by a 12 y/o or someone who lives in a 2 br apt. with 12 of his compadres, for similarly low wages. Stick to what pays best. For me, it's mowing. Mowing is also much easier physically.

[HOMER]

I haven't found an apartment complex yet worth my time and energy. I stay away from real estate companies and property managers for that very reason ----------cheap, cheaper and, cheapest!

The only way to make money in this business is to get really big or stay very small. I chose the latter, I'm not in a big market and my cost of living isn't that high either.

When I started out I was paying 4 workers and not getting jack done. I can do the trimming and let my wife mow and get as much or more done than we did paying out that money.

16 years in a factory as a supervisor tells me that adding more people to the problem is usually the most inefficient way to solve it. You'll waste more man hours than if you would take a step back and look at your operation.

I'm not making any where near the money you are each month but I got a feeling I get to keep more and do it with a lot less headache.

If tree work is better money then cut way back on your mowing operation, get rid of half your people and start thinking about the owner more. You can't be all things to all people.

Making 30 a month and spending 28 on expenses? Not for me thank you.

[Bunton Guy]

I generally can get for commercial 85 per man per hour.

[DLS1]

Sure is alot of confusion why some can make $70 an hour and others are making $30 hour. The only way to compare from my viewpoint is break it done to the basic level of comparison which to me would by

1. sq ft of yard, 2. do you trim and blow? 3. size of mower and brand 4. how long it takes to cut the yard. 5. how many are servicing the yard for the amount of time to get it done and any other questions you can think of to break it done to the basic level. That way a guy cutting the same yard with a 21" can see if he bought that 48" Lazer he could make the same amount of money per hour due to the time savings.

Someone can make $70 an hour by mowing 2 yards side by side with a lazer and charge $35 per yard and that may be the only time they make $70 an hour and the rest of time make average $35 an hour due to drive time,etc. And what about factoring in money you need to set aside maybe $5 - $10 per yard for a reserve fund to pay equipment repairs and replace old equipment, insurance,etc.

Also how does someone make over $80 a hour commercial when from reading this forum it seems commercial is more competitive than doing residential lawns. Are you mowing a relatives site so their is no competition?

So lets compare apples to apples and then you may find out your not doing as bad as you thought moneywise for what your gross per sq ft is. The difference could all be in how you manage the business end of the business (i.e. various insurance,equipment purchases, labor cost if you hire help,etc.).

[CSRA Landscaping]

I average about $50-$60/hr and I'm 80% commercial, 20% residential. I work alone and I use a Scag Tiger Cub, 48" Advantage deck, and a Scag SW36 walkbehind, 36" Advantage deck, Stihl power equipment, and when the mood strikes me or I need it, a Little Wonder parking lot blower, 8HP B&S engine. I knew 0% of my customers before I started.

[LawnSmith]

Originally posted by LSDLS
Someone can make $70 an hour by mowing 2 yards side by side with a lazer and charge $35 per yard and that may be the only time they make $70 an hour and the rest of time make average $35 an hour due to drive time,etc. And what about factoring in money you need to set aside maybe $5 - $10 per yard for a reserve fund to pay equipment repairs and replace old equipment, insurance,etc.

you bascially summed up a whole lot with that one paragraph. i was planning on replying with something similar but you beat me to it. good job!

[LawnSmith]

Originally posted by brucec32
Example: I only take on Tall Fescue customers

i chuckled when i read this. man o man.

[brucec32]

Originally posted by LawnSmith


i chuckled when i read this. man o man.

What's your point lawnsmith? Mine was that I make a lot more money doing Fescue lawns here than I did doing Bermuda and taking on all comers just for volume.

I own a newer home on 2 acres in Atlanta, drive a new Toyota Tundra, not a beater. My family car is a '98 BMW 540i sport 6 speed that's paid for, max out contributions to my retirement accounts each year, have money in the bank, $150,000 of equity in my home, and am headed to the beach in August to shop for a vacation property. So maybe being more selective works a little better for me than it does for you, eh?

[KenH]

Originally posted by CSRA Landscaping
There's something to be said for working smarter not harder. One guy with the right equipment can run a neat, tidy, and profitable business. Two guys (one owner, one well-payed employee), both quailty-conscious, with the right equipment, can do some serious damage. More than five can't seem to find the cord to start one weedeater before 10 minutes is up.

This is the best advice I have heard since I signed onto this board. This should be what all LCO's strive for, I know I do.

[LawnSmith]

Originally posted by brucec32


What's your point lawnsmith? Mine was that I make a lot more money doing Fescue lawns here than I did doing Bermuda and taking on all comers just for volume.

I own a newer home on 2 acres in Atlanta, drive a new Toyota Tundra, not a beater. My family car is a '98 BMW 540i sport 6 speed that's paid for, max out contributions to my retirement accounts each year, have money in the bank, $150,000 of equity in my home, and am headed to the beach in August to shop for a vacation property. So maybe being more selective works a little better for me than it does for you, eh?

whoa now, ease up partner. it just struck me as funny when i read it. if you lived up here in KY, you would understand why. actually, i think a lot of professionals would find that somewhat amusing.


it sounds as if being selective works very well for you but what i do works for me as well. good luck on finding those "all fescue" lawns down there in florida. watch out for that bermuda too, once it gets in a lawn it can take over qucikly.

[DLS1]

Relax folks. There is more to life than who has the biggest house, most cars, best mowing equipment,etc. How about how is your family life,relationship with friends AND CUSTOMERS,etc? Isn't if funny how on the internet manners go out the door very easy sometimes. My guess is that the back and forth jabs that go on in this forum at different times wouldn't go on if you met in person.

Okay, if you must list all your earthly assets (cars.house,mowers,etc) then how about including the debt on all that stuff then we can get the value of what you own. Oh, and list any inheritances that you have collected already.

I have a 750,000 house, a vacation home in Florida, have $15 million in a mutual fund (started off with $1,000 in Wal-mart 30 years and $5,000 in Microsoft 30 years ago). I just mow for fun. Only kidding about the last two sentences.

Have a good day and enjoy life.

[LawnSmith]

Originally posted by LSDLS
Relax folks. There is more to life than who has the biggest house, most cars, best mowing equipment,etc. How about how is your family life,relationship with friends AND CUSTOMERS,etc? Isn't if funny how on the internet manners go out the door very easy sometimes. My guess is that the back and forth jabs that go on in this forum at different times wouldn't go on if you met in person.

Okay, if you must list all your earthly assets (cars.house,mowers,etc) then how about including the debt on all that stuff then we can get the value of what you own. Oh, and list any inheritances that you have collected already.

I have a 750,000 house, a vacation home in Florida, have $15 million in a mutual fund (started off with $1,000 in Wal-mart 30 years and $5,000 in Microsoft 30 years ago). I just mow for fun. Only kidding about the last two sentences.

Have a good day and enjoy life.

yes you are correct and i am going to edit my previous post. but, if you noticed in that post i put "i own" before everything. when i say own i mean paid for.

[AGG Lawn Maintenance]

Ego's Ego's!!! Whats going on. He's a scrub no he's a scrub. I will tell you this it all comes down to two things either the quailty of the work or the cost. For some of the big boys they are beating us out due to cost. And all the small guys will get you with the detail of their work. The guys I admire do some of the best work in my area and have the $_ _ _ _ trucks. Does it (truck) really have to be brand new. And some of the guys with the newest trucks do the worst work. I don't have the newest truck but I'll tell you this my work and knowledge speak for itself. As my grand pop once said "learning your trade is an ongoing process"
And he was a mason for 40 years. I must admit the cheap shots keep things interesting but are not always needed. We all can learn something for this site. I'm not into the whole ego thing, but I love learning about different things. Like I never knew about the double blade system until I heard Eric (God bless his sole) talk about it. I truely believe the the internet will pay a strong role in the furture of landscaping. Just look back 10 years ago. If it was'nt for the net and guys like Chuck most of us would have never met. We need this very important tool to take us to the next level. I have talked up a storm and now its bed time.
Good luck and good night to all.
Travis
AG&G Lawn Maintenance

[darryl gesner]

Well Bruce, in my opinion, you're a little light on possesions and you'd be better off with a 3/4 ton Chevy than that TOYota. My family car is a 2002 VW van (I can't imagine making my family drive around in a 1998 BMW), all my equipment is paid for, and I own a riverfront home on 34 acres with over 1/2 mile of river frontage (I can't imagine having only 2 acres). I don't need a vacation home because I'm living in one! I mow any kind of lawn as long as it fits reasonably well on my route, I like the customer, it's profitable, they pay me on time, and I don't have to mow more than 2 days a week. Different strokes for different folks. Lighten up.

[TFL]

i noticed it was beginning to brown. thanks iwas curious aboutr that.

[Flex-Deck]

$50 per hour - all I see is numbers

1. if a driveway is a double car deal and 60' long and a young kid shovels it for $20 and it takes 3 hrs - he probably feels like he did well making $6.66 per hr.

2. if the same drive is done by a 4 foot snow blower on the front of a 455 JD and it only takes 10 minutes for the $20, that adds up to $120 per hr.

3. The major difference between the two examples above is the fact the kid has a $12 shovel and the 455 JD guy has $12,000 machine.

4. So I guess my main question is "All you guys saying you get $80 per hr. - do you have the big stuff" and "All you guys getting the $30 per hr. are you working with the little stuff." I would venture to guess that the guys running the little stuff for $30 per hr. are making just as much profit as the big boys with their big wide machines- After all - most accounts have to be bid on the amount of mowing involved whether it be by a 21" pusher or a 60" rider.

Thanks, Brad

[Samurai WeedWacker]

Bret- more people would read your posts if you didn't use ALL CAPS. It's tough on the eyes. Many people consider it to be the equivalent of SHOUTING.

[HOMER]

I just wonder what's for supper?

Never seen a U-Haul make it to Heaven.

I just think I'll live till I die.

[crazygator]

OK my turn. I see all of this as "How much is your time worth?" and "Where are you willing to spend it or sacrafice it?"

How much time do you spend working to get that $35, $50, or $80 an hour? How much time do you waste chasing the money when you are putting off more important things? I am a solo op. I do not have many accounts right now. Why? Time! Yes, time is money but money cannot always buy what you what you want or need. Which mostly is to have that time back.

I have a 2 year old daughter. She needs my time now, not later. What is that worth? My father is dieing of cancer, with only 6 months at most to live. He needs my time. What is that worth? If I put both my little girl and my father off so I can spend more time pursuing the all mighty $60-$100 an hour what do I gain? Even if I get to keep the majority of the money what do I lose to gain? Its all time!

I am sorry to carry on so, but please all consider where I am speaking from. Time equals whatever is most important to you. If you sacrifice the right time for the wrong time what do you gain? Nothing, you will lose!

So lets not worry about where someone gets $100 an hour or $35. Its all about the time!

[scott's turf]

Yes, we should all be looking at how much me make per hour after expenses as should our customers maybe then they would give us tips.

[Just Cut]

you hit the nail right on the head crazygator, I agree 100%

[JimLewis]

Part of the problem is probably because you are focusing on commercial work. A long time ago I figured out that I couldn't afford to do commercial work because of the reasons you just cited (other companies bidding at $25 or less PMH.)

I found I could gross about $4600 per month for a day's work for two of my 2 man crews, each on seperate routes, each crew doing 20 or more residential accounts that day. Whereas, for most commercial jobs (e.g. appartments) the going rate was about $2500-$2800 for the same 4 workers for an entire day.

There is just a lot higher profit margin in residential maintenance. The tighter we pack our routes (more houses in one neighborhood) the higher our hourly rate gets up to.

Now we still don't make anywhere near $70 or $90 PMH for lawn care. But I bet we get $40 or more on some days.

With landscaping and irrigation work we often get $40 - 50 PMH or even more. Did a job that ended today and we netted $93 per man hour. Part of that is due to the 100% mark-up in plant materials that we can make. We buy plants at 50% of retail cost and double the price on every plant. The customer still pays regular retail price just as they would if they went to the nursery and got them themselves. So we're not scamming anyone. We just end up being much more profitable.

[Lawn-Scapes]

Jim,

Am I figuring this right?

$4600/4men = $1150 per man, per day

10 hours = $115 per man hour

12 hours = $95.83

Even $2800 would be great.. $60-70 per man hour.

What did I figure wrong?

[SLS]

:confused:

I think it was the "I found I could gross about $4600 per month for a day's work for two of my 2 man crews, each on seperate routes, each crew doing 20 or more residential accounts that day." that has me confused.

[JimLewis]

Sorry, I know that's confusing. I use MS Excel to figure out how much a crew of 2 guys can make me in one week day.

For instance, every Friday, crew 1 does 25 yards. Those 25 yards make me about $2400 per month. Now there are usually 4 weeks in that month, so you can break it down further if you want. 2400 / 4 weeks / 9 hours / 2 guys = $33 per hour. (Once in a while we have 5 Fridays in a month and so they make $27 PMH those months)

But I wasn't referring to an hourly rate. I was just referring to what I can make, PER MONTH, for a given day every week.

e.g. if two crews are out doing 22 lawns each, I am making roughly $4400 (PER MONTH) for that day. But if I did commercial work for what some of my local competitors do, I'd have those same 4 guys at some appartment complex all day long and that account would only bring in $2500 or so for the month. That's what the going rate is around here.

Hopefully this makes more sense now.

I just try to think of things on a per month basis because 1) it's more consistent than the hourly rate. and 2) all accounts 'round here are year-round so in the winter, the hourly rate is much higher, because we don't come as often.

[SLS]

Thanks, Jim....it makes sense to me now. :)

I need to look into that computer program stuff for the biz,

Right now I just keep a daily log of my total hours (working, driving, maint., ect.) and add them at the end of the month and then divide the P&L (and expenses) figures from there to get an hourly average on my net and gross for the month. To break the monthly figure into weekly figures I divide by 4.3 (4.3 weeks in a month).

I'm 'old fashioned' I suppose.........:)