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dhess
07-21-2008, 03:27 PM
I've replaced around 100 rotor heads on one of our larger properties.

Most of the replacements have been due to gear failure (no longer turning, or unable to adjust) but the some are usually leaking rotors. Sometimes at the joints, but...

here is what I'm running into on the leaking rotors.

http://www.n-siderecords.com/lawnsite/pgp_topfailure.jpg

notice the leaking from the screw on top. Teflon isn't fixing this. Just curious if anyone has some words of wisdom on this other than these rotors suxor.

These heads are probably from initial install so they may be 5-8 years old.

Mike Leary
07-21-2008, 03:33 PM
They are fairly new as they've got the rubber top, I've had that problem with RB 1800,
most of the time mower & string trim fault. What do the guts/threads look like when
you take them apart? Looks like you're wearing the right shoewear.

dhess
07-21-2008, 03:40 PM
They are fairly new as they've got the rubber top, I've had that problem with RB 1800,
most of the time mower & string trim fault. What do the guts/threads look like when
you take them apart? Looks like you're wearing the right shoewear.

I'll have my pop take a look at some since hes the mechanical engineer.

Mower failure, NAW ;) no mowers breaking heads here!

I have a bag full I'll take a closer look at. I'm wondering if I can send them back to get a refund though :) :)

I tried to string one up with teflon and it still leaked and even tried to see if I could just stick a new head in the old housing, still leaked.

So I'm wondering if they are expanding or getting crushed from mowers, weather ect..

dhess
07-21-2008, 03:43 PM
They are fairly new as they've got the rubber top, I've had that problem with RB 1800,
most of the time mower & string trim fault. What do the guts/threads look like when
you take them apart? Looks like you're wearing the right shoewear.

Mike any idea when they started using the rubber tops then?

This is new account to use within the past 2 years and first time I've replaced these heads.

I've been using the ripoff Irritrol PGP lookalike (hope I don't regret that down the line).

dhess
07-21-2008, 04:45 PM
took a few heads out to our testing facility :cool2:

without teflon (a rotor that I replaced)

http://www.n-siderecords.com/lawnsite/pgp_noteflon.jpg

and with teflon and some SERIOUS turning with plyers..

http://www.n-siderecords.com/lawnsite/pgp_withteflon.jpg

so I was wrong about the teflon working though I have to tighten the head an extreme amount which can't be good.

So the dilemia, do you spend time digging out leaking heads then wrapping them up with teflon then re-running the system and HOPE that it fixed the problem...

or do you just replace the head totally.

I say if I have to dig out a head/rotor then I replace it unless it is brand new.

Bigred350
07-21-2008, 05:04 PM
Replace them with a RB 5004

WalkGood
07-21-2008, 05:04 PM
Are they missing the rubber gasket?

Is that a total brand new head (cannister too)? Some of the older cannisters cannot work with the new guts cap.... but I think you are dealing with brand new out of the box heads as replacements that are leaking too?

Mike Leary
07-21-2008, 05:06 PM
Mike any idea when they started using the rubber tops then?
Maybe ten years.

Wet_Boots
07-21-2008, 05:18 PM
Close to 15 years now with rubber tops. Under-cap leaks are one mode of PGP failure. Unless you installed the heads yourself, I wouldn't take a whole lot of stock in what you see on one particular system. The PGPs are date-coded, by the way.

AI Inc
07-21-2008, 05:52 PM
I was having a lot of this problem at the begining of the yr. Al,l leak in the same spot. All had 07 manufactur date. None seem to be doing it anymore. Hunter rep hasnt said what it was but I think they found the cure.

Mike Leary
07-21-2008, 06:50 PM
Any time you change-out a turf rotor, go to 6", with the new mowing heights, you
won't clear after a while.

dhess
07-21-2008, 11:08 PM
Any time you change-out a turf rotor, go to 6", with the new mowing heights, you
won't clear after a while.

I'm more worried about our guys hitting the heads with the actual wheel from the mower versus cutting them off. I replaced a ton earlier this year that were also stuck in the up position. I typically paint those with orange paint if I see them up for an extended amount of time...

makes it a little easier for mower guys to avoid.....and I know typically if they do hit them and I find orange pieces it is because it was stuck in the up position.

naw those heads were ones I replaced. no rubber gasket on PGP's that I can see.

Anyone know how to figure the date on the PGP and what the significance of the 01 on the top means?

The bottom has the usual patent numbers but one number seems to be different on the two rotors I have in my hands. One being 1049-7 and other is 1049-5.

2007? 2005? maybe?

I'm looking at the Irritrols 450r (the copycat PGP) and its exactly the same. Seems like a major failure if I'm suppose to use teflon tape to ensure it doesn't leak in the long run to me. I can't see why they haven't added more threads to lock them down more.

I have one Rainbird 5000 here too and I like how it has more threads on the screw top...I should give the rainbird rotors another chance. I just hate carrying a bunch of different nozzles.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-22-2008, 07:21 AM
Cap leaks are my second biggest peeve next to sticking heads. We tried some Hunter institutional sprays and right out of the box they leaked at the cap and we could not get them stopped. This was right after an ad in L&I mag bragging on how they don't leak and RBs do. I noticed that ad only ran one time. I think it was a change in molding material that caused this and they went back to their original molding material. Unfortunately permanent damage was done with me and I'll never switch from RB 1800 sams again.

AI Inc
07-22-2008, 07:25 AM
[QUOTE=dhess;2429571]I'm more worried about our guys hitting the heads with the actual wheel from the mower versus cutting them off. I replaced a ton earlier this year that were also stuck in the up position. I typically paint those with orange paint if I see them up for an extended amount of time...

If your going to take the time to spray em with paint , just spray em with white lithium grease and it will fix the problem

Anyone know how to figure the date on the PGP and what the significance of the 01 on the top means?


The 01 is the date code, there is another date code with month on the riser.
QUOTE]

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-22-2008, 07:26 AM
I'm more worried about our guys hitting the heads with the actual wheel from the mower versus cutting them off. I replaced a ton earlier this year that were also stuck in the up position. I typically paint those with orange paint if I see them up for an extended amount of time...

makes it a little easier for mower guys to avoid.....and I know typically if they do hit them and I find orange pieces it is because it was stuck in the up position.

naw those heads were ones I replaced. no rubber gasket on PGP's that I can see.

Anyone know how to figure the date on the PGP and what the significance of the 01 on the top means?

The bottom has the usual patent numbers but one number seems to be different on the two rotors I have in my hands. One being 1049-7 and other is 1049-5.

2007? 2005? maybe?

I'm looking at the Irritrols 450r (the copycat PGP) and its exactly the same. Seems like a major failure if I'm suppose to use teflon tape to ensure it doesn't leak in the long run to me. I can't see why they haven't added more threads to lock them down more.

I have one Rainbird 5000 here too and I like how it has more threads on the screw top...I should give the rainbird rotors another chance. I just hate carrying a bunch of different nozzles.

At least the 5000s have LA nozzles on their tree and in a pinch can be adjusted with a small flathead. That dirt clogged hex head of the PGP can be a beating and no LAs standard?????? Never understood that. Best low cost rotor going inmo is the 5000 prs/sam. Now I need to see if they stand the test of time.

geardriven
07-22-2008, 08:27 PM
DID YOU KNOW????

...KRain makes Irritrol's 450R as of now....not forever.
...The RPS75 has a 5 year warranty vs. Hunter's 2 year warranty.
...The RPS75 will fit the past and present PGP can w/o leaking.
...The RPS75 comes with LA nozzles on the tree.
...The RPS nozzles are numbered by gallonage...i.e. #3 is roughly 3 gals. at 40psi.
...KRain owns and licenses the one and only patent to Hunter that is used in the PGP.
...You wouldn't be the only one making the change!
...The RPS75 is the rotor that Hunter does not want you to know about!
...The RPS75 has been in production for over 3 years with 2 seasons of winterization....with NO ISSUES TO DATE.

BTW...Hunter can confirm what I'm saying. Look in the Irrigation and Green magazine at their advertisement. That ad is merely stating the only difference is the name...and I'll almost agree with that.


Just letting you know*trucewhiteflag*

Let the flaming begin.:drinkup: More than likely, this post and name will be deleted soon.

Wet_Boots
07-22-2008, 08:32 PM
Nothing stops K-Rain from making a better rotor. Ten years from now, maybe they will have a track record that says they've done it.

Mike Leary
07-22-2008, 09:47 PM
DID YOU KNOW?

::::gives a rat:::::

geardriven
07-22-2008, 10:06 PM
What is it that drive's your hatred towards KRain? I'm pretty sure you haven't even tried anything from KRain in the last 3 years. I'm not talking about something from 10 years ago. We all know that every manuf. has had issues with all their products in the past.
I appreciate and respect those that don't want to change what's been working for them. It's another thing to bash another product w/o a shred of testing for themselves. You can take a ziploc bag and put every part of the PGP and RPS in it...shake it up and assemble 2 new heads...mixed matched parts and all.
Were you also aware that KRain is the 2nd largest manufacturer of rotors in the industry....behind Hunter? KRain is tapped into EVERY rotor manufacturer except for Hit and WM, in some shape or form. KRain is not the same company you MAY have experienced 30 years ago or even 5 years ago. I'm pretty thick skinned and am ready for anything you deliver. :weightlifter:

Mike Leary
07-22-2008, 10:10 PM
::::gives a rat:::::

..................... :dizzy:

Waterit
07-22-2008, 10:10 PM
::::gets cold drink, pulls up comfy chair::::

Wet_Boots
07-22-2008, 10:20 PM
::::gets cold drink, pulls up comfy chair::::All discussion participants will, of course, maintain the usual LS standards of decorum
http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=115130&stc=1&d=1216766777

Mike Leary
07-22-2008, 10:28 PM
All discussion participants will, of course, maintain the usual LS standards of decorum ]

:rolleyes: check, what were the standards ?

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-22-2008, 10:28 PM
What is it that drive's your hatred towards KRain? I'm pretty sure you haven't even tried anything from KRain in the last 3 years. I'm not talking about something from 10 years ago. We all know that every manuf. has had issues with all their products in the past.
I appreciate and respect those that don't want to change what's been working for them. It's another thing to bash another product w/o a shred of testing for themselves. You can take a ziploc bag and put every part of the PGP and RPS in it...shake it up and assemble 2 new heads...mixed matched parts and all.
Were you also aware that KRain is the 2nd largest manufacturer of rotors in the industry....behind Hunter? KRain is tapped into EVERY rotor manufacturer except for Hit and WM, in some shape or form. KRain is not the same company you MAY have experienced 30 years ago or even 5 years ago. I'm pretty thick skinned and am ready for anything you deliver. :weightlifter:

KRain has HO all over it. Touching KRains make me feel cheap and slimey.

Mike Leary
07-22-2008, 10:32 PM
KRain has HO all over it. Touching KRains make me feel cheap and slimey.

Ditto, never even considered using them, like Nelson.

Waterit
07-22-2008, 10:40 PM
KRain has HO all over it. Touching KRains make me feel cheap and slimey.

Ditto, never even considered using them, like Nelson.

We do like their pump-start controllers, relays, and hydro-indexing valves, though. (Hey, gotta toss the guy a bone for something).

Mike Leary
07-22-2008, 10:50 PM
We do like their pump-start controllers, relays, and hydro-indexing valves, though.

Are the hats cool?

geardriven
07-22-2008, 11:26 PM
HO???? tell me which of the major 4 manufacturers are not in the big box stores. Hunter, RB, Toro, K-Rain (in select markets, not all)...are all in there. The difference, K-Rain has the most differentiation between the retail and Pro products.
Regardless of the retail product. If a HO is calling you, it's because they don't want to do it themselves. If they are comparing what you're charging compared to what they can get the retail product for, then sell you...not the product. That goes for any manufacturers product. The HO/retail should be a non-issue.
I'm a believer that a contractor should be selling their service, quality, etc. Not the product. When you get anything done by a contractor at your own home, all you want is that they look somewhat presentable, do clean quality work, responsive and at a reasonable cost. Show past work, references, duration in the industry, etc. If you're in the hopes of earning a job based on what you're selling, then you are only as good as the next guy selling the same thing. The real question is: What differenciates you from the trunk slammer?

Waterit
07-22-2008, 11:28 PM
The real question is: What differenciates you from the trunk slammer?

Ummm, our licenses?

geardriven
07-22-2008, 11:29 PM
We do like their pump-start controllers, relays, and hydro-indexing valves, though. (Hey, gotta toss the guy a bone for something).

Thanks! The pump starts and indexing valves are great products. The work for the long haul, and the indexing valves are simple to trouble shoot after 15 years. Not too many indexing valves being installed in the Mid West though! Too much change in elevation.

geardriven
07-22-2008, 11:32 PM
Ummm, our licenses?

Yes, but only in certain markets. Not everywhere. And still, you have trunk slammers installing in your market....and they are buying the same product you buy from the same distributors you buy from. I worked for a distributor in FL for years before working for K-Rain in FL for the last 5 years.

dhess
07-22-2008, 11:35 PM
At least the 5000s have LA nozzles on their tree and in a pinch can be adjusted with a small flathead. That dirt clogged hex head of the PGP can be a beating and no LAs standard?????? Never understood that. Best low cost rotor going inmo is the 5000 prs/sam. Now I need to see if they stand the test of time.

I'm starting to think I might lean toward using the Rainbird 5000. I looked at the I-450s today and I like how they have the extra threads on the cap, but rainbirds lower end 5000 series have that as well (plus the flow control).

I replaced another ~28 PGP rotors today. 1 not rotating, one no longer able to adjust arc, and all the others had the leaky cap problem.

So on a 9 station median spanning about half mile (10 rotors per station, lets say 90 rotors), I replaced around ~45 total. So thats almost HALF the rotors failing. All 2001 heads.

2 weeks prior I replaced (if I remember correctly) around 10 more on the same median that were failing to rotate.

I can semi accept the gearing going out after 7-10 yrs, but the leaky cap problem is pathetic and just a bad design and if I was doing installs I would probably stay clear from using them myself.

I'll check out the K-Rain.

Anyone know if Irritrol has 5 year warranty on the 450rs? I think Hunter has only 2 year on PGP series and 5 year on I-series heads.

Waterit
07-22-2008, 11:43 PM
Thanks! The pump starts and indexing valves are great products. The work for the long haul, and the indexing valves are simple to trouble shoot after 15 years. Not too many indexing valves being installed in the Mid West though! Too much change in elevation.

We are a HUGE pump-and-well area and since the demise of the Davis Flow Valve, K-Rain has enjoyed a monopoly on the pro market for indexers. The only competition around here in the indexing market is Fimco, and we replace a LOT of those. RB used to sell a pump-start relay, but dropped it years ago. That left KR and Hunter (oh yeah, and the 4-letter word mfr. whose product I will not buy). Intermatic, etc. are good hot-water-heater timers, but not for irrigation.

Elevation changes can be defeated by using check valves on each outlet port. Personal experience, and yes, it still maintains the air-gap feature that has led to an indexing valve being accepted by local plumbing inspection as a backflow preventer.

geardriven
07-22-2008, 11:48 PM
I'm pretty sure the 450R has a 2 yr. warranty...or atleast they did, as well as the PGP.
Longhorn carries them in TX.

I've sold a couple in the Mid West and haven't had any issues. A couple seasons of winterization as well.

geardriven
07-22-2008, 11:57 PM
We are a HUGE pump-and-well area and since the demise of the Davis Flow Valve, K-Rain has enjoyed a monopoly on the pro market for indexers. The only competition around here in the indexing market is Fimco, and we replace a LOT of those. RB used to sell a pump-start relay, but dropped it years ago. That left KR and Hunter (oh yeah, and the 4-letter word mfr. whose product I will not buy). Intermatic, etc. are good hot-water-heater timers, but not for irrigation.

Elevation changes can be defeated by using check valves on each outlet port. Personal experience, and yes, it still maintains the air-gap feature that has led to an indexing valve being accepted by local plumbing inspection as a backflow preventer.

FL overall is a large P&W market. Davis...wow...haven't heard that one in awhile!
The one advantage is that KRain's indexer is not in the box stores, where Fimco is. That goes for Intermatic as well.
Did you know the owner of Fimco used to work with the owner of KRain back in the days of inception?
KRain's indexer has really taken off in the waste water industry. Nothing to get clogged at all. That's in the markets that dissipate waste water into the yards...coupled with KRain's RC rotor and LA noz.
You might get flamed for the "backflow" comment. haha Irritrol 709 or 713 anti-siphon valves are all over FL as backflow's. Don't see too many up here though. I had to learn about RPZ's etc. when I arrived to this market!

geardriven
07-23-2008, 02:20 AM
HO???? tell me which of the major 4 manufacturers are not in the big box stores. Hunter, RB, Toro, K-Rain (in select markets, not all)...are all in there. The difference, K-Rain has the most differentiation between the retail and Pro products.
Regardless of the retail product. If a HO is calling you, it's because they don't want to do it themselves. If they are comparing what you're charging compared to what they can get the retail product for, then sell you...not the product. That goes for any manufacturers product. The HO/retail should be a non-issue.
I'm a believer that a contractor should be selling their service, quality, etc. Not the product. When you get anything done by a contractor at your own home, all you want is that they look somewhat presentable, do clean quality work, responsive and at a reasonable cost. Show past work, references, duration in the industry, etc. If you're in the hopes of earning a job based on what you're selling, then you are only as good as the next guy selling the same thing. The real question is: What differenciates you from the trunk slammer?

Prime example is Fimco Meister and his 521, showing experience and having the proper tools to get it done.

AI Inc
07-23-2008, 06:08 AM
What is it that drive's your hatred towards KRain? I'm pretty sure you haven't even tried anything from KRain in the last 3 years. I'm not talking about something from 10 years ago. We all know that every manuf. has had issues with all their products in the past.
I appreciate and respect those that don't want to change what's been working for them. It's another thing to bash another product w/o a shred of testing for themselves. You can take a ziploc bag and put every part of the PGP and RPS in it...shake it up and assemble 2 new heads...mixed matched parts and all.
Were you also aware that KRain is the 2nd largest manufacturer of rotors in the industry....behind Hunter? KRain is tapped into EVERY rotor manufacturer except for Hit and WM, in some shape or form. KRain is not the same company you MAY have experienced 30 years ago or even 5 years ago. I'm pretty thick skinned and am ready for anything you deliver. :weightlifter:

When a product has failed me so ofton on the past I dont like using " the new version"I have installed about 200-300 pro plus rotors. Plain and simple , the springs were too weak and they dont retract.Even doing startups this spring I had systems were entire zones failed to retract.
Who,s to say this will not be a K Rain issue with their new heads 2 yrs from now?

geardriven
07-23-2008, 11:02 AM
5 year warranty on all rotors.

Whose to say the PGP's would be leaking the way they currently do as dictated in this thread.

The common feature between the Pro Plus and the PGP/RPS75 is the return mechanism. The RPS75 is not a new version of the Pro Plus. The RPS75 is the same as the PGP with a few subtle differences.
-design on the rubber cover
-taller ribs on the cap, which allows you to grip better
-thread design so the riser/cap will fit previous and current PGP cans w/o leaking
-1 more coil in the spring vs. the PGP
-5 year warranty
-COST

BTW...my 9 year old son really loves the Red Sox for some crazy reason. He can name every player, stats, what their paid, where they came from, etc. Drive's me crazy. haha
Any hookups on some good seats:)

AI Inc
07-23-2008, 04:03 PM
Last game I went to was sox , yankees for the girlfriends bday last yr. $280 for seats the next town over.

Mike Leary
07-23-2008, 04:27 PM
The only competition around here is Fimco, and we replace a LOT of his

Wow! Peter, we thought you were high end.

Waterit
07-23-2008, 08:10 PM
Wow! Peter, we thought you were high end.

Now Leary, I give you the SL idea and you try to start something tween me and him?:waving:

tjfitzgerald
04-29-2009, 07:02 AM
We are a HUGE pump-and-well area and since the demise of the Davis Flow Valve, K-Rain has enjoyed a monopoly on the pro market for indexers.

Any idea on who can provide replacement parts for the Davis Flow Valve (those little plastic timing pins and metal fins on the 24 hour clock for example). I have a Davis Flow Valve that works but without the time control pieces I am activating it manually ... and not at 4-5am like it probably should be.

Wet_Boots
04-29-2009, 07:25 AM
we like photos

irritation
04-30-2009, 07:05 PM
PGP's flat out suck. I don't know what they did to them but the wiper seal is a major problem.
I thought they were the greatest and pushed the product, now I feel like an ass for installing an inferior head.

Wet_Boots
04-30-2009, 07:23 PM
PGP wiper seals have always been a problem, one you could fight by installing the head at a higher grade than you might want to. Hunter didn't have much choice back in the 1980's, since Rainbird had the important patent on wiper seals (1800 series and Minipaws) - and a head that was going to work with 0.5 gpm nozzles had to pop up without much, if any, flow-by.

irritation
04-30-2009, 07:39 PM
I WAS using PGP's since the early 90's and have thousands of the older ones performing flawlessly. The problem has shown up more and more in the last 5 or 6 years or so, even on heads less than a year old.
I've switched to all Rainbird products now, I have had less problems with them than any other major brand.

AI Inc
05-01-2009, 05:55 AM
I had issues with them last yr right out of the box. Havnt had any like that this yr.

CAPT Stream Rotar
05-01-2009, 06:11 AM
they still are the best.

Wet_Boots
05-01-2009, 06:22 AM
preach on, Brother Rotar!!

AI Inc
05-01-2009, 06:32 AM
Thats brother PGP rotor !

Wet_Boots
05-01-2009, 06:40 AM
Pretty Good Phish fan?

AI Inc
05-01-2009, 06:44 AM
I always thought it was plastic geardriven popup.As most of Hunters original product codes are quite simple
ps= plastic sprayhead
hpv = hunter plastic valve

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-01-2009, 06:56 AM
The PGP is old. Time to throw it out with the bath water. The PGP is like having a 40 year old 7' guy on your basketball team that can't get up and down the court. The PGP is like holding on to a former Super Bowl MVP. The PGP is like keeping Barry Bonds around to see him break Hank Aaron's HR record. The PGP is like a favorite old coffee cup with a chipped handle that causes a finger blister.

Yes the PGP is old and its time has come and gone.

AI Inc
05-01-2009, 07:10 AM
But on low water systems , its competition just isnt there yet. will they ever be?

Wet_Boots
05-01-2009, 07:13 AM
Drill a new well. Upgrade the water service. Install a weather station and a Calsense controller. :p

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-01-2009, 07:41 AM
Drill a new well. Upgrade the water service. Install a weather station and a Calsense controller. :p

I better clear that with WALKGOOD:cry:

Wet_Boots
05-01-2009, 07:56 AM
Bring back the R-50!!

WalkGood
05-01-2009, 01:19 PM
I better clear that with WALKGOOD:cry:

Now you're catching on. :rolleyes:


Yes, Mrs Jones.... you MUST buy a new $750 controller or you grass won't grow according to MIL-Spec and Geneva Convention rules. Although your grass will be just as green as it has been all this time with your current controller, it just won't provide me with a new truck/HD TV/WiFi Mobile Device/gallons and gallons of pollutant diesel in my flying twinkie.

And no, we couldn't just renozzle your existing heads or even change them to inexpensive MP rotators. You need gold plated, fixed spray brass nozzles with precision ground orifices with tolerances to 0.0000001 mm. In fact you must use this new manifold system that is a copy of a 2009 Corvette fuel injection metering computer feedback control.

Yes, it is only grass but you really should do this instead of using your social security checks to buy food. And just let your husband breath regular air instead of the oxygen tanks.


:hammerhead::dizzy::hammerhead:

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-01-2009, 02:16 PM
Now you're catching on. :rolleyes:

Actually I always make sure they are filthy rich and have a ton of money to blow first. It also helps if they have a sticker on their CADILLAC that says SPENDING MY CHILDREN"S INHERITANCE

If they are as poor as you describe I do the work for free.;)

Mike Leary
05-01-2009, 02:41 PM
Now you're catching on. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure I like that "flying twinkie" comment. :hammerhead::drinkup:

djt22
05-01-2009, 07:25 PM
Has anyone that has PGP's leaking under the cap asked their hunter rep or supplier about this problem and if so what did they say? Just curious.