Seeking comments on my new lawn

[yugin]

This my lawn on day #13. Seeded with mostly Tall Fescue mix. What do you think? Is it thin, normal, else? I know there few weeds.
I trying not to be too discouraged.
More pictures here http://delighted.smugmug.com/photos/swfpopup.mg?AlbumID=5533555&AlbumKey=dY4tm

[Smallaxe]

I would let it start drying out now and pull those weeds. Rather than overseed right away perhaps get the roots to become well established by backing off the water for the next several days. [Unless it gets too much burning sun and heat].

[rcreech]

This my lawn on day #13. Seeded with mostly Tall Fescue mix. What do you think? Is it thin, normal, else? I know there few weeds.
I trying not to be too discouraged.
More pictures here http://delighted.smugmug.com/photos/swfpopup.mg?AlbumID=5533555&AlbumKey=dY4tm

If this is only day 13...then you are doing very well! Was there any other types of grass in the mix?

It can take up to 21 days or better for TTTF to germinate so you may be surprised yet!

I do a ton of seeding and this is the advice I give to my customer!

Mow as soon as you can and mow it high (3.5-4 inches). This will thicken the lawn by encouraging it to harded off and tiller.

Remember that TTTF is a bunch type grass so it will not fill in like KYB mixes.

You will be surprised how much it fills in with a sound fertilizer program and weed control!

If you can set a baseball down and there is no grass touching it, you may need to slice those areas, but for the most part I think for the most part it will fill in great!

Only water it in the mornings twice a week and heavy when you do water. This will encourage deep rooting and will limit disease (even though TTTF has a lot of natural resistance).

Good Luck and keep us posted!

[RAlmaroad]

Adding some soluble Potassium Nitrate at 1/4lb/mo. with a micro-nutrient mix would aid in the root development and thicken up the existing grass...Water it in after application. Roy

[yugin]

Thank you guys for all comments.
by backing off the water for the next several days. [Unless it gets too much burning sun and heat].

Only water it in the mornings twice a week and heavy when you do water
Even though it's in mid 80's now with practically no rain? I water 30 min. morning and evening and twice 20 min during the day.
Was there any other types of grass in the mix?
IIRC, I seeded first 10-20% of the lawn with KBG mix and the rest of it with TTTF mix. I think it had 3 kinds of Fescue. I didn't save the package.

Is it really a good idea to pull weeds now?

[Runner]

Yeah, don't be afraid to pull some weeds now if you like. Pound it again with some starter fert. (much like what Ralmaroad stated). One thing to keep in mind...you STI have ALOT of viable seed that hasn''t even germinated yet, so yoiu are in better shape than what it even appears now. Do NOT stop watering and let it "dry up" at this point...I have NO idea where this suggestion came from. These new little seedlings HAVE to be kept moist. you have some goodones out there, but if you look close, you also have ALOT of brand new fine little hairs that are very fragile. These will be healthy plants eventually. you let it go dry now, and they will quickly wilt and die - to never come back. As far as watering, 30 minutes MAY be a bit to long...unless the water is coming out very lightly. The trick is, is to go by depth, not time...Everyones supply comes out at different rates. Just make sureyou are getting down to about the shallow root system, and that it (water) can penetrate just little deeper after it is shut off. Otherwise, you are just wasting water (displacement and flushing) before the turf plants can uptake and utilize it, and washing good nutrients out as well. As far as the clumpiness of the grass is, don't worry about it. as mentioned before, TTF is a bunch type growth habit, and initially grows like that.It fills out eventually. It just doesn't spread as readily as prostrate growth habit turfgrasses (which grow outward). Prostrate growth habit types also require a bit more potassium feeding that the others to maintain a good thinckness. the advantages? many. The most obvious is a deep root system which takes it more drought tolerant (when mature) and keeps it green longer though eat and drought stress. Anyway, you are doing well.

[yugin]

Thanks, Runner,
I might take a closer look at the amount of watering.

Does it matter if I applied starter fertilizer at the time of seeding as far as adding more goes?

I think I have to take couple weeks vacation somewhere far to stop bugging myself every time I look at the grass.:hammerhead:

[rcreech]

I agree with Runner as far as keeping wet, but I think you can do this by watering every other day or so depending on the temp and wind.

I have found that most people over water a new lawn. You can get by with much less then you think as long as the top is kept moist!

I was talking about watering twice a week and heavy once all the grass is up! Sorry for the confusion on that!

Also as Runner stated, it would be good to put another starter app on it!

You are going to have an AWESOME lawn, as the TTTF is great and the KYB will "fill in the cracks" for the lawn.

[yugin]

You are going to have an AWESOME lawn
I really hope so
it would be good to put another starter app on it!
When is a good time to do that? Now? After first mowing?

[JDUtah]

Poor guy, I hated dragging hoses. :) But like the others said, you look to be in great shape! :clapping:

[rcreech]

I really hope so

When is a good time to do that? Now? After first mowing?

Four weeks from the seeding date is a good rule to follow!

[yugin]

Poor guy, I hated dragging hoses. :)

I don't really do that. 2 heads pretty much covers all my backyard :rolleyes:

..
Ok, thanks. Great, should've bought bigger pack of fertilizer.

[Smallaxe]

An alternative to over-fertilizing and producing shallow root systems, you might consider picking up 10 bags of composted manure and broadcasting it on the lawn. That will give the seedlings cover and enrich the soil throughout the root zone.
10 bags for 2 sprinkler zones should be plenty, just be sure not to suffocate the seedlings. Lightly rake it off if it covers blades of grass.

[rcreech]

An alternative to over-fertilizing and producing shallow root systems, you might consider picking up 10 bags of composted manure and broadcasting it on the lawn. That will give the seedlings cover and enrich the soil throughout the root zone.
10 bags for 2 sprinkler zones should be plenty, just be sure not to suffocate the seedlings. Lightly rake it off if it covers blades of grass.

You sure do have some creative thinking! :laugh:

Sounds like a lot of work and additional cost to me!

Where did the concern of over fertilization come from?

You can do something like this I guess...but it sure isn't needed! It is pretty hard to "over fertilize" when you are using a lower N analysis with SCU!

[Smallaxe]

You sure do have some creative thinking! :laugh:

Sounds like a lot of work and additional cost to me!

Where did the concern of over fertilization come from?

You can do something like this I guess...but it sure isn't needed! It is pretty hard to "over fertilize" when you are using a lower N analysis with SCU!

Actually the cost of 10 bags of compost <$15.00 in our area and can be spread in <1/2 hr. just tossed out from a wheelbarrow with the help of someone pushing it.

Overwatering and overfertilization is realistic concern. Thatch and compaction with shallow rooted turf topping the list.

If it isn't needed, then niether is the fertilizer, in that compost will help make the ferts available.

[Smallaxe]

You sure do have some creative thinking! :laugh:

Sounds like a lot of work and additional cost to me!

Where did the concern of over fertilization come from?

You can do something like this I guess...but it sure isn't needed! It is pretty hard to "over fertilize" when you are using a lower N analysis with SCU!

Actually the cost of 10 bags of compost <$15.00 in our area and can be spread in <1/2 hr. just tossed out from a wheelbarrow with the help of someone pushing it.

Overwatering and overfertilization is realistic concern. Thatch and compaction with shallow rooted turf topping the list.

If it isn't needed, then niether is the fertilizer, in that compost will help make the ferts available. Try it and see :)

[rcreech]

Actually the cost of 10 bags of compost <$15.00 in our area and can be spread in <1/2 hr. just tossed out from a wheelbarrow with the help of someone pushing it.

Overwatering and overfertilization is realistic concern. Thatch and compaction with shallow rooted turf topping the list.

If it isn't needed, then niether is the fertilizer, in that compost will help make the ferts available. Try it and see :)


I am not coming down on you but I just have several questions.


1) If the compost has any nutrient value what so ever...how are you getting it so cheap. What is the source of your compost? What is the nutrient value that can replace a fertilizer? How do you get an even application?

2) Depending on the "makeup" of the "compost" and the C:N ratio...you can actually tie up a lot of the available N which will make the new grass yellow.

3) You state the time and money it takes...but has this guy told you the square footage? How do you know what it will cost and the time it will take?

4) Thatch should be of no concern on any new lawn...and where does compaction come from in this converstaion....and how will a skim of compost help?

I just ask as this guy askes a simple question of when to add his next fert and you come out with all this.

This may work on a small scale, but I don't see if working for and LCO! Too much time and effort involved when there are much simpler ways to do it IMO!

[Smallaxe]

5 bags per sprinkler zone is about right. Broadcast by hand like seed. I am an LCO and I see the results on a regular basis. Nutrient value goes far beyond what written on the bag. Thatch and compaction belongs in any converstaion when you are putting down 2 apps in 4 weeks. Source is just about any box store or a quality nursery in bulk.

Coming up with "all this" is pretty simple and basic. I had been working with one lawn for a couple of years that had one terrace that just wouldn't respond while everything else was getting better to great. This year I dumped 5 bags of compost and it greened up quickly and still looks great and filling in.

Why does it work so well? Soil science answers a lot of questions and it is quite involved. I just go with the old adage - The proof is in the pudding.

[rcreech]

5 bags per sprinkler zone is about right. Broadcast by hand like seed. I am an LCO and I see the results on a regular basis. Nutrient value goes far beyond what written on the bag. Thatch and compaction belongs in any converstaion when you are putting down 2 apps in 4 weeks. Source is just about any box store or a quality nursery in bulk.

Coming up with "all this" is pretty simple and basic. I had been working with one lawn for a couple of years that had one terrace that just wouldn't respond while everything else was getting better to great. This year I dumped 5 bags of compost and it greened up quickly and still looks great and filling in.

Why does it work so well? Soil science answers a lot of questions and it is quite involved. I just go with the old adage - The proof is in the pudding.

I mean what is the SOURCE of the product? Is it animal manure?

Again, thatch and compaction should not be an issue in a NEW lawn. Where are you getting this? Are you saying that putting on a starter fert at seeding and again in four weeks after seeding causes thatch and compaction?

As far as soil science...I have my bachelors in agronomy and fully understand where you are coming from....but it takes much more then a few bags of "compost".

I am glad this works for you...but realistically I think that a starter fert is much simpler and works on the big scale.

[Smallaxe]

Yes, typically cow manure is most widely available.
Ferts sit on top of the soil and start too evaporate or leach rather than spend much time in the 6 inches of root zone. Shallow roots with rapid growth results as a general rule. The road to thatch has aleady began, rather than letting the roots grow down into the soil normally.
I have a client that insisted that daily watering was the way to go and compaction was evident in about a month. His lawn cannot stand up to a dry period in the spring b4 the irrigation comes on. New topsoil and seed. What a waste.

A few bags of compost may not supply all that the soil needs, but it is a good start. It does help the nutrients stay and make them more available to the plant - would you agree with that? As a general rule?

[rcreech]

Yes, typically cow manure is most widely available.
Ferts sit on top of the soil and start too evaporate or leach rather than spend much time in the 6 inches of root zone. Shallow roots with rapid growth results as a general rule. The road to thatch has aleady began, rather than letting the roots grow down into the soil normally.
I have a client that insisted that daily watering was the way to go and compaction was evident in about a month. His lawn cannot stand up to a dry period in the spring b4 the irrigation comes on. New topsoil and seed. What a waste.

A few bags of compost may not supply all that the soil needs, but it is a good start. It does help the nutrients stay and make them more available to the plant - would you agree with that? As a general rule?


Actually the most important part of a starter is the phosphorus...which is a very imobile nutrient. Potassium is also a little important and it is also a very immobile nutrient (unless CEC is low).

The only nutrient which can be lost is N...but when using a starter it is good to use a SCU or slow release product.

With that said, if you don't know that analysis of the product you are using...then how much do you know how much to put on?

I personally don't see watering a new lawn for 20 days enough to cause any serious compaction unless you allow water to stand (which is not good on a new stand of grass anyway). Compaction really only occurs from heavy traffic or tillage especially on wet soils. I don't see watering for a short amount of time to be of any worry.

As far as compost vs fertilizer and shallow roots....

You are applying both products on top of the soil...so why would the roots go deeper using one or the other? Neither will go 6" into the root zone, and that is really too deep for most turfgrasses anyway. And thatch...you have a long way to go from the initial four weeks of a new lawn!

I see what you are saying...but I don't buy your argument to use compost over a starter.

It takes more then a few bags of compost to change the OM or structure of a soil.

I can't remember the amount of tons/acre needed to increase OM 1% but I do remember it is Ungodly!

[Smallaxe]

Phosphorus is very stable in the soil, agreed. Important nutrient for starter, agreed. Largely inaccessable to plants, agreed.

P is not likely to be deficient in most soils, just tied up and unavailable to soil testing techniques and to plants. That's where microbes get involved. In agriculture they are innoculating corn field with an AM Fungus to get it working on gathering tied up P from the mineral soils and make it available to the plant.

AM fungus is naturally occuring in soils all over the world and eventually make a symbiotic relationship with perennials and trees, however corn is an annual so the innoculation needs to be done.

Fertilizer causes rapid root growth at the surface, compost does not. It allows the soil underneath it to stay moist and helps the building of a good soil structure. Good soil structure allows the roots to grow normally and absorb nutrient normally.

Compost increases your CEC in that it provides more Cation Exchange sites. In other words it helps to hold nutrients and makes them available to the plant.

The amount of compost needed to raise the OM 1% is irrelevant. Just use as much as you want. It certainly can't hurt anything and in most cases it will make a significant difference.

How does regular fert. improve soil structure and increase the CEC?

[rcreech]

Phosphorus is very stable in the soil, agreed. Important nutrient for starter, agreed. Largely inaccessable to plants, agreed.

P is not likely to be deficient in most soils, just tied up and unavailable to soil testing techniques and to plants. That's where microbes get involved. In agriculture they are innoculating corn field with an AM Fungus to get it working on gathering tied up P from the mineral soils and make it available to the plant.

AM fungus is naturally occuring in soils all over the world and eventually make a symbiotic relationship with perennials and trees, however corn is an annual so the innoculation needs to be done.

Fertilizer causes rapid root growth at the surface, compost does not. It allows the soil underneath it to stay moist and helps the building of a good soil structure. Good soil structure allows the roots to grow normally and absorb nutrient normally.

Compost increases your CEC in that it provides more Cation Exchange sites. In other words it helps to hold nutrients and makes them available to the plant.

The amount of compost needed to raise the OM 1% is irrelevant. Just use as much as you want. It certainly can't hurt anything and in most cases it will make a significant difference.

How does regular fert. improve soil structure and increase the CEC?


#1) I am not aware of ANY source that is being used at the farmgate to make P more available. I also farm, and wholesale chem, fert and seed on the side). There is no product being used like this on the larger scale farms.

Where have you heard this? What is the product being marketed as?

Also, you are correct that a lot of P and K isn't avaiable, but what shows up on the soil test is. Even with adequate levels of P in the soil, you can still get a response from new seedings.

#2) I never said that fertilizer would help soil structure or the CEC...but neither will the SMALL amounts of compost you are adding.

I only brought up the soil structure issue as you relating to adding compost as keeping compaction down. Again, just putting a skim will have almost no effect on the CEC or OM.

You have to add TONS AND TONS of compost/acre to get even a minute change.


Again, I know what you are saying and it should work that way but I can promise you that it doesn't. I can break out my textbooks if you want and get the detailed info, but at the end of the day a skim of compost isn't going to fix all the issue you bring up. As far as too much root growth up to! That is proposterous! We are only talking about adding a starter fert!

I really don't want to argue about this as I don't think anyone in the industry is doing this as a standard practice, and all the guy did was ask when he needed his next fert app.

I am glas this works for you!

[rcreech]

Smallaxe,

I have a question for you about your comment of adding fert and getting rapid root growth on the surface.

My family has been no-tilling since the mid 70's and my father and I are still no-till today. We broadcast all our fertilizer and no tillage is ever performend.

All fertilizer is applied by GPS and we apply as little as 100#/acre and up to 500#/ac of both DAP and/or Potash depending on what the map recs call for.

So if your theory serves correct...how does my corn and bean root several feet into the ground (as deep as 4-6 ft)?

How is no-till so successful if what you say is accurate?

[JDUtah]

My opinion,

Fertilizer has mineral nutrients (salts)...
Compost has mineral nutrients (salts)... the same ones...

Either way, the salts dissolve into the water and leach down into the soil... deeper then 2". If they stopped at 2" there wouldn't be groundwater contamination issues across the nation.

The roots can pick them up at the surface or deeper in the soil. IMO Organics really don't cause roots to grow deeper. And synthetics really don't cause roots to grow more shallow. But to each his own.

I say apply the fert.

[JDUtah]

I never said that fertilizer would help soil structure or the CEC...but neither will the SMALL amounts of compost you are adding.

I only brought up the soil structure issue as you relating to adding compost as keeping compaction down. Again, just putting a skim will have almost no effect on the CEC or OM.

You have to add TONS AND TONS of compost/acre to get even a minute change.

Your sentence right there made me get out of bed and dig a one square foot hole in my lawn. I wanted to see how much a 1/4" topdressing would increase the OM of a soil.

The basis of my experiment/calculation is by using a calculator I made that tells you how much compost you need to add to reach a certain SOM%.
See http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=2416805&postcount=60

Ok, so for the inputs into this calculation...

Compost
1,100 lbs per yard
60% OM

Soil
38 lbs for 1 square foot at 4.5" deep
1.7% SOM (common number for our soils out here)

The compost and soil moisture % are pretty close to the same.


I then adjusted the desired SOM until it told me to mix in .2485 inches of compost.

Based on my calculations assuming a 1/4" topdress is naturally mixed into 4-1/2" of soil, and starting at 1.7% SOM, you will raise the SOM to 3%.

That is a 1.3% increase in SOM per compost topdressing. Topdressing with compost at that thickness can be done spring and fall... that's 2.6% increase in SOM per year.

2.6 percent SOM increase per year IS a significant change in soil structure.

I'm still going to compost topdress. :)

[Smallaxe]

There is alot of mixing apples and oranges here. I am not talking about raising the OM of the lawn.

I am talking about raising the level of bacterial/fungal activity to make more nutrients available to the root zone.

I am talking about covering the surface roots and increasing soil structure in the process.

If you think about it, a lawn is no-till. :) Once the AM fungi are established in the grass or other plants you are good to go.

As far as I could tell, the innoculating of corn, is still in the research stage and showed significant results. I came across it during the winter blues research project.
If you really want to find it google Arbuscular Mychorizae - or - to be sure of the spelling do AM fungi first. :)

[rcreech]

My opinion,



Either way, the salts dissolve into the water and leach down into the soil... deeper then 2". If they stopped at 2" there wouldn't be groundwater contamination issues across the nation.


I say apply the fert.

As far as ground water contamination....most of it comes from two ways.

1) Runoff and erosion is the #1 reason for most ground water contamination. There is very little one can do after reducing tillage and adding buffer strips. Runoff and erosion will always be present and that carries valuable nutrients right into our water supply. P and K are very mobile for the most part and you will not see them "leach out" and cause water contamination unless they are literally washed into the river per say.

2) P levels are TOO high therefore leaching can occur (usually on swine or poultry farms with accessive application). This is now monitored very closely.

Sure some N may leach from time to time...but again, there isn't much once can do at this time.

[JDUtah]

thanks for the correction

[rcreech]

[QUOTE=Smallaxe;2442301]


If you think about it, a lawn is no-till. :)

That was my point! You said that in a lawn fertilizer will encourage too much upper growth. My challenge and question to you was....if we are adding all our fert as we do on lawns....then why do the roots go deep? You totally missed my point on that!

As far as I could tell, the innoculating of corn, is still in the research stage and showed significant results. I came across it during the winter blues research project.
If you really want to find it google Arbuscular Mychorizae - or - to be sure of the spelling do AM fungi first. :)

I have never heard of this and I attend more agronomy meetings then I should. I would think that this would be a big topic right now since all P sources and increased 4X since two years ago. I will have to see what you are talking about...but at first you made it sound like the technology was already being used.

I can tell you as of now...I have never heard of such a product....and it may just be another SNAKE OIL product. That is what most of them are. It is VERY HARD to substitute for P and K!

[rcreech]

There is alot of mixing apples and oranges here. I am not talking about raising the OM of the lawn.

I am talking about raising the level of bacterial/fungal activity to make more nutrients available to the root zone.

I am talking about covering the surface roots and increasing soil structure in the process.

If you think about it, a lawn is no-till. :) Once the AM fungi are established in the grass or other plants you are good to go.

As far as I could tell, the innoculating of corn, is still in the research stage and showed significant results. I came across it during the winter blues research project.
If you really want to find it google Arbuscular Mychorizae - or - to be sure of the spelling do AM fungi first. :)

This is a quote I found so far from googling:

"Although home gardeners can buy potting mix with beneficial fungi added, it’s impractical for farmers to buy and apply the amount they would need for their fields."

I will keep looking!

[Smallaxe]

I couldn't find the article I read last winter but I did come across a couple of interesting ones that deal with inoculum and the problems of mass producing - along with some plot and field testing results.
Enjoy.

http://www.plantmanagementnetwork.org/pub/cm/review/2004/amfungi/
"Small scale AMF inoculum production began in the 1980s followed by large scale production in the 1990s. At present, several companies have officially registered and commercialized AMF inoculum."

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/AG116
"Under controlled conditions, with fumigated substrates, the beneficial effects of mycorrhizal inoculation upon plant growth can vary from zero to 2,600% in citrus and 1,000% in cassava, to cite a few examples. In field conditions and non-fumigated soil, these responses are of lesser magnitude but can reach 300%."

[rcreech]

I personally don't see how they could ever get enough for MILLIONS of acres...and even if they did....what would it cost?

[Smallaxe]

What does fertilizer cost this year? I live in a farming area and the cost of ferts means that crops have gone hungry this summer.

Once there, they (AM Fungi) should be able to stay there. It is just the idea of waking them up and getting them in contact with a host when they germinate. Or as soon as possible. JMO.

[JDUtah]

I can't say I read the articles... yet.. but with my current understanding, AM Fungi make nutrients in the soil more available to plants.

Thinking of farming, you have to fertilize because you harvest nutrients and take them off site. So if you make the plants more efficient absorbing the nutrients already in the soil and stop your fertilizer inputs, yes they might make well for a while, but what happens when there isn't even unavalable nutirents left for the AM to digest for the plant? Now you are left with a REALLY dead soil. If I'm off track, please correct me.

I'm sticking with compost. :)

[rcreech]

There is a lot of "natural P" in the soil that is "tied up" and is not plant available and it never will be. What we are adding is available to the plants once in solution. P has to be available in quanitites needed by the plant or you can have plant defeciencies.

Utah is right as we have to add P and K every year due to CROP REMOVAL from grain.

Figuring crop removal is real easy and there is no product that will ever keep us from having to apply fertilizer.

The more grain that is removed...the more crop removal has to be replaced. And with the predicted increase in yields over the next 20 years...it will take even that much more fertilizer due to crop removal. Avg corn yields right now are 150 bu/ac and by 2030 they are expecting the avg corn yields to be around 300. You can't do that without fertilizer! :cry:

To answer your question the fertilizer prices are up like crazy (MAP $1156/ton and Potash $817/Ton).

If a farmer lets his fertility be the limiting factor in crop production...then he doesn't know what he is doing. If they are letting their crops go hungry as you say then they don't have clue.

You only want your limiting factors to WEATHER in crop production and NEVER anything else (such as seed, fertilizer or poor weed control etc.)

Sorry but are you sure you know what you are talking about? :dizzy: You keep talking about the ag side a little but you don't seem like you really know!

I am sure that if there was a product out there that would release P in soils...Universities, and many, many others would be promoting it!

And again...if it costs twice as much to use a "AM Fungus" or whatever it is....it is sometimes cheaper to just use the "real stuff". Again, I have seen many SNAKE OILS come and go...and this just sounds like another one to me.

[JDUtah]

rc, I am under the impression that the AM fungi make the unavailable P available... just .02

But still, if you take away you gotta put back...

[Smallaxe]

There is a lot of "natural P" in the soil that is "tied up" and is not plant available and it never will be. What we are adding is available to the plants once in solution. P has to be available in quanitites needed by the plant or you can have plant defeciencies.

Utah is right as we have to add P and K every year due to CROP REMOVAL from grain.

Figuring crop removal is real easy and there is no product that will ever keep us from having to apply fertilizer.

The more grain that is removed...the more crop removal has to be replaced. And with the predicted increase in yields over the next 20 years...it will take even that much more fertilizer due to crop removal. Avg corn yields right now are 150 bu/ac and by 2030 they are expecting the avg corn yields to be around 300. You can't do that without fertilizer! :cry:

To answer your question the fertilizer prices are up like crazy (MAP $1156/ton and Potash $817/Ton).

If a farmer lets his fertility be the limiting factor in crop production...then he doesn't know what he is doing. If they are letting their crops go hungry as you say then they don't have clue.

You only want your limiting factors to WEATHER in crop production and NEVER anything else (such as seed, fertilizer or poor weed control etc.)

Sorry but are you sure you know what you are talking about? :dizzy: You keep talking about the ag side a little but you don't seem like you really know!

I am sure that if there was a product out there that would release P in soils...Universities, and many, many others would be promoting it!

And again...if it costs twice as much to use a "AM Fungus" or whatever it is....it is sometimes cheaper to just use the "real stuff". Again, I have seen many SNAKE OILS come and go...and this just sounds like another one to me.


Getting back on topic - all I said was that compost will do more with less fert.
The proof is in the pudding. You can't imagine it so don't worry about it. Many LCOs can imagine it and also do it. Does not make us stupid believers in snake oil. It shows excellent results.

If you don't bag clippings there is no harvest.

[rcreech]

Getting back on topic - all I said was that compost will do more with less fert.
The proof is in the pudding. You can't imagine it so don't worry about it. Many LCOs can imagine it and also do it. Does not make us stupid believers in snake oil. It shows excellent results.

If you don't bag clippings there is no harvest.

I am not saying that compost won't work or is a bad thing, but I don't think you will find many guys on here that use compost in place of a starter fert. Starter is too easy to handle (no volume) and has a GUARANTEED ANALYSIS that we can depend on!

No offense....but I think if you look back at the beginning, we were talking about when to apply starter fertilizer to a new lawn and YOU were the one that brought up adding compost and AM Fungi.

Infact, I was just thinking last night how you even brought this AM Fungi thing into the thread...but wasn't really worried enough about it to check.