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echoman8
07-26-2008, 03:17 PM
I bought a used lx172 deere lawn tractor with a fs420v as10 kawasaki motor (14hp). It has no fire. I am a small engine mechanic, but this one has stumped me so far.
The flywheel key is good. The keyways on both the crankshaft and the flywheel are good.
I replaced the coil (magneto) and electronic ignition (ignitor/excitor) with new, then I tested with a spark tester many different ways:
1: Kill/ignitor wire removed from coil.
2: Kill wire on coil, but wire from ignitor to ignition switch disconnected.
3: Did tests with coil spade grounded to see if it was a "ground to fire" coil (like some old OMC coils).
4: Tested with white wire grounded before the ignitor and coil. This wire was disconnected from the ignition switch when tested.
Actually, there is a miniscule amount of fire (not enough to ignite fuel in motor) when kill wire is disconnected from the coil.
Fuel --- I have primed to test (through carb and put fuel in cylinder)
Compression ----- 90 psi
Does the white wire going from the ignition switch to the ignitor(electronic ignition) and then to the coil require some voltage to produce ignition in this motor? Has anyone ever had to change the flywheel magnet/s or flywheel?
If anyone has encountered this problem, please advise.

Thanks, Dennis

kawasaki1
07-26-2008, 06:01 PM
find the flat 3 wire connector running from the engine to the wiring harness. unplug it. you've now isolated the ignition from the machine.

check your spark plug cap. some of them had a resistor built into them and they go bad sometimes.

make sure they gave you the right coil.

i had a lx come in the shop with the same condition.

customer had installed a new style coil that has the ignitor built into it. they will not work on an external ignitor equipped engine unless you change the flywheel.

compare the old coil to the new. if the new one has a square looking end where the ground terminal is it won't work.

make sure the coil is installed in the proper direction.

all the white wire is is a ground once it leaves the ignitor. if any kind of voltage is applied it will fry the ignitor and coil.

Phil G
07-26-2008, 06:05 PM
I bought a used lx172 deere lawn tractor with a fs420v as10 kawasaki motor (14hp). It has no fire. I am a small engine mechanic, but this one has stumped me so far.
The flywheel key is good. The keyways on both the crankshaft and the flywheel are good.
I replaced the coil (magneto) and electronic ignition (ignitor/excitor) with new, then I tested with a spark tester many different ways:
1: Kill/ignitor wire removed from coil.
2: Kill wire on coil, but wire from ignitor to ignition switch disconnected.
3: Did tests with coil spade grounded to see if it was a "ground to fire" coil (like some old OMC coils).
4: Tested with white wire grounded before the ignitor and coil. This wire was disconnected from the ignition switch when tested.
Actually, there is a miniscule amount of fire (not enough to ignite fuel in motor) when kill wire is disconnected from the coil.
Fuel --- I have primed to test (through carb and put fuel in cylinder)
Compression ----- 90 psi
Does the white wire going from the ignition switch to the ignitor(electronic ignition) and then to the coil require some voltage to produce ignition in this motor? Has anyone ever had to change the flywheel magnet/s or flywheel?
If anyone has encountered this problem, please advise.

Thanks, Dennis

Hi Dennis, I've not worked on any of these, but I figure small engines from different manufacturers have too many similarities.
Is it electric start only? Or is there a recoil start as well. Like you I'd disconnect all the wire to the switch and any cutout so it's a bare coil/ignitor.
Is the coil/flywheel gap good, set to thickness of business card. Make sure both pickups on the coil are equally spaced. Don't forget these electronic units need the equal of 300rpm to spark enough to fire the fuel. Is the starter lazy? If there's a recoil fitted use this to spin the engine.
Now I'm off to think of other possibilities.
Good luck Phil :)

echoman8
07-26-2008, 10:18 PM
First, thanks for your help.

I disconnected the wiring between the key switch (ignition switch)and the electronic ignition (ignitor/excitor). The disconnect is just before the excitor and this isolates the excitor and the coil/magneto.

I removed the spark plug cap (exposing a spring device for the spark plug ). I found no indication of a resistor.

The coil I purchased was from Tulsa (Oklahoma) Warehouse. The parts are probably from Stens. The cosmetics are the same (no square receptical). The fire/lack of fire is the same with the old coil and ignitor as with the new coil and new ignitor.

The Ignitor is Deere #131398. The current # after 73484, 128800, & 131198.

I installed the coil in the correct direction.

The white wire is the wire I disconnected first. I disconnected it between the Ignitor and the key switch (ignition switch). This totally isolates the igntor and the coil from all other electrical connections.
-
=
=
_____Just for grins, I modified a 12hp briggs coil to mount on the Kawasaki. I got the same result: Extremely weak fire. I did not connect the excitor to the briggs coil. I realize the magnet setup is not similar on the flywheel of a bs and a kawasaki.

In my experience, It is not likely that I get the same identical result from a defective part. So, I trust my new coil and new ignitor.

Just to recap other. I pulled the flywheel. The key and keyways are good. The difficulty of removing the flysheel assures me that no one has removed it recently.

Thanks again

--------Remember any advise that may be helpful is appreciated ---------

dennis

echoman8
07-26-2008, 10:33 PM
Hi Dennis, I've not worked on any of these, but I figure small engines from different manufacturers have too many similarities.
Is it electric start only? Or is there a recoil start as well. Like you I'd disconnect all the wire to the switch and any cutout so it's a bare coil/ignitor.
Is the coil/flywheel gap good, set to thickness of business card. Make sure both pickups on the coil are equally spaced. Don't forget these electronic units need the equal of 300rpm to spark enough to fire the fuel. Is the starter lazy? If there's a recoil fitted use this to spin the engine.
Now I'm off to think of other possibilities.
Good luck Phil :)


Hi Phil,

It is electrc start only.

I disconnected all wiring up to the ignitor(electronic ignition) and coil(magneto).

I used my business cards for the coil/flywheel gap on 1:old coil 2:new coil 3:modified briggs coil (I did this for grins knowin the fly magnet was wrong for bs magneto)

Although I don't know if I am turnin 300rpm, the starter is new; the battery is strong and I could only wish my old truck would turn this fast. I am testing the ignition with the spark plug removed with no/extremely weak fire.

Thank you Phil

------------I'm open to advise, thanks everyone--------------



dennis

kawasaki1
07-26-2008, 10:33 PM
i've never had to replace a kawi flywheel because of bad magnets, yet. that doesn't mean they aren't bad though.

the magnets on almost all flywheels are pretty tough, but look and see if there's hammer marks on them.

the ignitor number seems correct, but i can't verify that until i go to work mon.

did the coil you bought have a deere or kawi equivalent number? iirc the deere number is am109209 but i can't check that either until mon.

since you posted the type and spec i can get the deere and kawi numbers mon. so you can compare.

about the only thing to check before replacing the flywheel if all numbers are good is the white wire where it goes from the coil to the ignitor. maybe it's broken inside or grounded where it runs through the blower housing.

eta.. are you using a spark checker or spark plug?
some spark checkers do go bad (don't ask me how i know) and some plugs are bad out of the box.

echoman8
07-26-2008, 11:30 PM
In my shop we did at least 5,000 ignition repairs withou a single bad flywheel.

There is magnetism on the fwheel.

There are 2 screws attaching the mag to the fwheel. It appears that the magnet is glued also.

I am sure the excitor is the correct number. A short test on the excitor is with a ohm meter. When the ohm polarity is reversed from the spade(connector) to the body, there is a different resistance indicating that it is not toasted.

The coil. I got it from Tulsa Warehouse (Oklahoma). I found the kawa # on internet and googled. I assume that this coil was routed through Stens or other aftermarket.

Hey, if you have time Monday --- great, But if your shop is like mine was, then Tue or Wed would be better.

I ohm'd the wire from the ignitor to the coil. I had not thought of that, but, it is ok.

My tests on the ignition.
1: used spark tester; no visible fire
2: used spark plug; grouned plug to engine block, no fire across gap
3: bare spark plug wire to block; barely fire (if touching block)

All tests will only show fire if spark plug wire is touching block. All connections are clean.

---------THANKS AGAIN. IF IT WAS SIMPLE, I WOULD NOT ASK---------
dt

echoman8
07-26-2008, 11:42 PM
kawa deere #s fc420va22618 fou20vas10 lx172

kawasaki1
07-26-2008, 11:45 PM
i can probably check them monday. it's gonna be hot again, and i can do it on break.:)

it's gotta be something simple we're overlooking. i've run into a few jobs where i overlooked something simple only to discover it a couple of hours and a disassembled machine later.:rolleyes::dizzy:

jkason
07-26-2008, 11:51 PM
Replace the plug - might be bad internally. (Can't hurt)

echoman8
07-26-2008, 11:55 PM
I agree, it is something simple.

Thank you for everything.

I do not like to be a parts replacer. This may be an exception.

dt

kawasaki1
07-27-2008, 12:24 AM
i checked tew's website. if the part number they sent you (if you bought it there) is 29-1039 that should be the correct one. it says it's the replacement for deere am109209.

if they sent you part #29-1038, that one has an internal ignitor and won't work.

can you post a pic of each one?
if i had pic ability, i'd post you a pic of each one.

echoman8
07-27-2008, 12:50 AM
I did cross am109209 on google at tew's site. I ordered 29 1039, but I cannot confirm that I received that #. I tossed the receipt and cleaned my email. Doesn't that suck.

But, there is no reason for them to sub a part, and the tests are the same with the new mag and the old.

I will call Mon and confirm the part #

de

kawasaki1
07-27-2008, 01:00 AM
okay. i'm dying to find out what's wrong.

if you find out, please post it. it might save people a lot of trouble.

i'll keep thinking on this one and see if i can come up with anything else.

eta...i'll check my deere and kawi manuals mon. and see if they have anything. i do know deere/kawi had some problems with bad ignitors (hence all the part # changes) but that was about 3 years ago.

echoman8
07-27-2008, 01:04 AM
At the moment, I'm doubting myself.

When I or you solve it, I will post

What are the odds of having two bad coils or two bad ignitors?

What are the odds of having a bad flywheel?

What am I overlooking?

de

echoman8
07-27-2008, 01:14 AM
so,

possibility of electronic ignition problem?

do you think possible or probable?

I could have fried it, but soft test does not show I did.




If you have a 2 cycle problem, I will return the favor.

My mechanics did not like to do 2 cycle, so, I got good at diagnosis of 2 cycle.

de

Restrorob
07-27-2008, 09:09 AM
Hey Dennis,


I have read the same problem on this board, You might test both igniters as the chart below (pick your style).

Even though the igniter is new it's new aftermarket (Stens), That was deemed the problem on the other two engines I read about. Once a OEM (Kawi) igniter was installed spark was regained, I can't explain why but that was the fix for them.


http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m314/Restrorob/Kawasaki/FC/KawiFCIgniterTest.jpg




Good Luck

kawasaki1
07-27-2008, 11:04 AM
i have run into bad out of the box ignitors but that was a few years ago when deere first changed part #'s.

i've also had coils and ignitors test good on the coil checker and with an ohmmeter but not work when installed. that's why i keep known good spares on hand from junk engines.

it's aggravating when you have a new part that's no good.

flywheels rarely go bad. when they do it's usually 'cause somebody hit the magnet when trying to remove it.

if you have access to a running engine, take the ignitor and coil off and try them on yours. don't forget the ignitor must be mounted/grounded to work.

i'd get another coil and ignitor preferably from deere and try that before getting a flywheel. it's expensive, but cheaper than a new flywheel.

the coil could be bad. remember the tecumseh factory coil problem of about 5 years ago? we got 10bad out of the box coils from them. their answer, "buy them from rotary until we fix the problem.":confused:

eta.. thanks for the offer on 2 stroke, but i avoid them like the plague. i let our 2 stroke specialist handle them.

echoman8
07-27-2008, 07:48 PM
Thanks for the help and return reply.

To refresh, the new coil is from Tulsa Engine Warehouse ( aftermarket).

The ignitor (electronic ignition) is original Deere AM131398 which is the current correct new part # for fc420 as10 (kawasaki engine #). I have also perforemd the test printed. The original ignitor tested the same resistance whether the - or + was on the connection. The new deere part tested correctly per this post. Of course these little critters test good, when bad sometimes. I had found this article, on the internet, before I installed --about 4 days ago. I also retested the ignitor after installing and after attempting to get fire on the mower. It still tested good.

I know the likelihod of having a bad ignitor is greater than the possibility of a bad flywheel magnet (never seen one go bad). There is no indication the magnet has been hit by a hammer. I tend to feel that it is one of the two though. The probability of the new coil being bad would be the least likely.

Thanks again. I believe I've worn this thread out. I'll have to load it and carry it to a dealer or buy at least another Deere ignitor.

echoman8
07-28-2008, 07:09 PM
Hi,
I just noticed something that I think is a problem with the kawa module, at least with the motor I have (fc420 as10). It is the location where the ignitor mounts. Rather than mounting to the engine block, it mounts to the engine cowling. A resistance in the ground can fry a ignitor or prevent it from working. This ground on the cowling (where the ignitor is screwed on) is dependent on other bolts to ground it to the motor. Give a mower 12 years of mowing and dust or rust builds between these connections and there is no fire.

I am out of the box but still in it on this one.

It is 100 degrees and humid in west Texas today and I will test this theory tommorrow.

de

kawasaki1
07-28-2008, 07:44 PM
the part #'s you have are the ones it calls for.

i wrote the resistance values for the coil on my notepad which i left at work.:rolleyes: i'll remember to bring them home tomorrow.

yep. that ignitor must be grounded to work.

maybe i'll bring the manuals home tomorrow and go from there.

echoman8
07-28-2008, 08:09 PM
Thank you kawasaki1

Manana (tommorrrow). I had a hard day in the trees. Will mechanic on Tuesday.

de

kawasaki1
07-29-2008, 07:28 PM
i think i might've found your problem. this is straight from jd dtac solution #54382

original ignitor has failed. previous service ignitors, am128800, am 131198, AM131398 do not start engine.
if engine does start engine runs erratically.

order and install ignitor am132770.

i went back and read your previous posts. the am131398ignitor won't work.

maybe that's it.

echoman8
07-29-2008, 07:35 PM
That is great news. I finally have something solid to go on. I will order the part and try

Thanks very much

de

kawasaki1
07-29-2008, 10:08 PM
if you have access to a running f510-525, gt242, or a 325 that has an external ignitor you can use that one for a test.

it seems the old 14-17 hp. singles use the same ignitor.

it seems all their troubles started when they got rid of the old m73477 or something ignitors.

mowermankevin
07-30-2008, 08:05 AM
Thank you kawasaki1

Manana (tommorrrow). I had a hard day in the trees. Will mechanic on Tuesday.

de

Echoman, Been following this thread, in between water breaks, did you get any rain out of Dolly? Just turned on the tube and the radar shows rain on top of us, but walked outside and nothing yet. Those igniters have give me fits, can't stand those little P.O.S. expensive add-ons. Just one question, when you said a hard day in the trees, what part am I missing? The joke here is the tallest tree in west Texas is a fence post, married to a Lubbockian and going out there was a real education in scenery and topography. I'd move out there in a heartbeat, we just bought a Leveland 2 year-old quarter horse home and he didn't know what a tree was, or that it is cooler under the tree,something the other two horses have down. Try to stay cool, we have at least another week of this. C'ya K

echoman8
07-30-2008, 08:42 AM
Thanks again kawasaki1. The info is really useful. I will have to delay getting the part for a few days. The Deere shops are in Odessa/Midland and I am working the other direction. So far, I cannot find a website selling this part. Will try again.

----To "mowerman7" Yea, in West Texas the fence posts or taller than the trees. Yep, I live near Odessa. I worked in Alpine/Fort Davis/Marfa area for several years before doing trees. Now most of my work is still in that area. That mountain country has a good tree population and rather large trees for a desert. The ranches have some giant cottonwoods.

We got a little sprinkle from Dolly, but the Fort Stockton area got 2 inches +.

echoman8
08-03-2008, 11:55 AM
Hi,
I just noticed something that I think is a problem with the kawa module, at least with the motor I have (fc420 as10). It is the location where the ignitor mounts. Rather than mounting to the engine block, it mounts to the engine cowling. A resistance in the ground can fry a ignitor or prevent it from working. This ground on the cowling (where the ignitor is screwed on) is dependent on other bolts to ground it to the motor. Give a mower 12 years of mowing and dust or rust builds between these connections and there is no fire.

I am out of the box but still in it on this one.

It is 100 degrees and humid in west Texas today and I will test this theory tommorrow.

de

HI KAWASAKI 1

Well the ground to the ignitor was the problem on the ignition. I tested with a test clip and then ran an external ground wire from the mounting screw to the block. I would imagine this condition is the cause for some ignitor failures and some erratic firing.

I grew up in the aftermarket auto parts business. During the early days of the electronic igntion on cars, the Ford products had a lot of ignition failures (fried modules). A major cause of this was that the module ground system would develop a lot of resistance. No ground and there was no fire, but with a partial ground, the module would fail.

Now the next problem ----- The engine (kawasaki fc420 as10, john deere lx172) is firing on an open intake valve. Before I remove the cylinder head to inspect, is there anything I need to know?

Will I have to get a new head gasket or will the old gasket work for a week or 2?

Are specs (torques, valve lash, etc) available on internet?

Thanks,

de

kawasaki1
08-03-2008, 12:50 PM
at least it's firing now.:)

you can pull the rocker cover and check the valve lash. i set them at .005-.007. if the valve springs are equal height when closed it's probably not a stuck valve.

you've already checked the key and have a new plug so that leaves a timing problem if both valves close. you can also apply air through the plug hole with the engine locked at tdc to check valve sealing.

one of the things the dtac solution said was "the engine will run erractically, backfiring, missing, etc. if it starts at all" with the wrong ignitor.

you might want to try your old ignitor just for grins and see if it works. if you can find an am132770 ignitor try that and check the valves before tearing the engine apart.

some of the old kawasaki's had a riveted plastic cam gear that would slip and throw off the timing like a plastic gear on a car, but most of those failed and were replaced with steel cams.

you can't reuse the head gaskets, and the torque specs and pattern might be online but i can post a pattern that looks like this since i can't post pics.

3. 4. 6.
1. 2.
7. 5. 8.

if that would help. it'd probably be tues. since i'm not going i tomorrow.

my first weekend off in 3 months and i catch a cold.:cry:

echoman8
08-03-2008, 08:41 PM
Thanks again. I plan to drive the 120 miles for parts tommorrow.

The plastic cam gear got me to thinking of a valve test after a rebuild. Most all engines then were “valve in block”. To make sure that the camshaft/crankshaft was aligned correctly, we would turn the engine to top dead center. On one rotation (compression stroke) the valves would be closed, but on the other rotation, the valves would rock at tdc (one valve close while the other opened). If it were assembled wrong (even one tooth off), it would be obvious by observing the valves. Of course the same can be done by watching the push rods on this motor.

I will post Monday evening after repair.

Thanks
de