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View Full Version : For all you MTL haters/doubters........


bobcat_ron
07-27-2008, 01:29 PM
These are my tracks, rollers and idlers at 200 hours, if you've seen my work pictures and job descriptions, you know what I run my MTL through, gravel, rock, sand, dirt mixed with just about everything mixed in it, pavement pounding and yes, even demolition work in the aforementioned material(s).

Left side:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures935.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures936.jpg

Right side:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures944.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures946.jpg

Top of track:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures947.jpg

Inside, no damage on drive cogs or roller sleeves:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures948.jpg

These pics are not to brag, but only to show the vast majority of "lurkers" that just because the negative feed back you hear and read about the Cat/ASV MTL's isn't always necessarily true.

I was once lead into believing in a "Santa Clause" and "Easter Bunny", I know they don't exist, the Tooth Fairy is another issue, that dumb b*tch owes me money!

AWJ Services
07-27-2008, 02:21 PM
Imagine if you had a 11,000 pound+ machine using it under the same conditions what they would look like.

All I see in the picture is by the time you get too 1000 hours you will need all new rollers.
I sure hope they are cheap.:)

J. Peterson Grading
07-27-2008, 02:38 PM
But at 1000 hrs I trade mine in and get a new one.

J.

mrsops
07-27-2008, 03:09 PM
ron dont you have that machine since november? all you have is 200 hrs on it

bobcat_ron
07-27-2008, 03:11 PM
But at 1000 hrs I trade mine in and get a new one.

J.

Same here, even less in my case, I am praying Cat will have a direct swap out steel/rubber track undercarriage that we can just drop onto the torsion axle mounts, hook up the hoses for the drive motors and go!

But keep in mind, there are machines called tank drills, these are monsterous drilling equipment with steel tracks and rubber coated rollers, one of the dudes that my brother employs has worked with these drills, and they just took the rollers off and had them capped with steel or just rubber again, no problems.

bobcat_ron
07-27-2008, 03:13 PM
ron dont you have that machine since november? all you have is 200 hrs on it


Yeah, and? That is a huge amount for me, don't forget where the other 80% of my monthly income comes from.

mrsops
07-27-2008, 03:24 PM
Yeah, and? That is a huge amount for me, don't forget where the other 80% of my monthly income comes from.

o yeah i forgot about that but it looks like you will prob be in something else by the time you have to replace anything

ksss
07-27-2008, 03:27 PM
Well you were able to hit 200 hours. Hardly a testiment to durability. It all comes down to this for me. They took rollers and wrapped rubber around them then put that delicate rubber wrapped roller and put it in the dirt, rock, and sand at ground level. If it was a great idea you would not be seeing a CAT MTL (which they have marketing against since the release of the MTL, it will be interesting to see the marketing spin when that releases). You would also not see CAT rental park their own MTL's and use the VTS to lower expenses in their rental fleet. Certainly if your nice to it and you hopefully will get some hours out of it. It helps that you run in sand there mostly, as it appears from the pictures. That at least keeps the chunking to min. although probably accelerates other wear points. The system may work for you Ron as it works some others (DigDeep seems to be getting along fine) although at 200 hours you hardly can call that working for you at this point, you have not even hit your first scheduled oil change. Even at the low hours the wear is evident.


I will now and will always maintain that if you are able to do things with this machine that you cant with other less delicate systems and your getting paid accordingly, you have the machine you need. Your covering your expenses and making money on top of it. Thats the idea.

How many applications can this thing do that others (CTLs) cant? . Once CAT gets the CTL on line, these machines will be a rarity among tracked buyers. They were designed and built as a niche specialty item that should never have been sold as the answer to all tracked applications It should have been left to a small company like ASV to fill.

CAT will obviously provide this as an option to those that want it and want it in CAT dress until their agreement expires. They will then, I predict, drop this entirely. It is not a machine for most all applications like a CTL, and that point is now widely known and accepted even by CAT. Blair Products is making a killing off this marketing and sales blunder by CAT. CAT to their credit is getting off the MTL only train before they alienate more tracked skid steer buyers. Cat sells machines to guys that run the spectrum in dirt applications, most not MTL friendly. Since CAT only had the MTL to sell until recently, it became the hammer for every application. ASV, smaller company, more specialized and in theory anyway more knowledgable about their system is in a better position to sell their machine into the right application. Also the ASV although lightly built compared to the CAT machines seem to be a better design than the skid steer chassis used by CAT for MTL applications.


One last question, 200 hours in a year how do you justify that machine?

The word according Shane

ksss
07-27-2008, 03:50 PM
Yeah, and? That is a huge amount for me, don't forget where the other 80% of my monthly income comes from.


Dude, you have not seen a paycheck since early Spring. Do you know where the other 80% comes from? It works out to an average of about 10-20 hours a month depending on when you actually got it. I thought it was last Summer, but maybe it was in November. That is a poor ROI no matter how you slice it.

wanabe
07-27-2008, 03:52 PM
I thought one of the big issues was the bearings? Did you check end play?

AWJ Services
07-27-2008, 04:41 PM
How many applications can this thing do that others (CTLs) cant? . Once CAT gets the CTL on line, these machines will be a rarity among tracked buyers. They were designed and built as a niche specialty item that should never have been sold as the answer to all tracked applications It should have been left to a small company like ASV to fill.

I have never had too turn a job down that I could not do because I do not have a suspended CTL machine.
Maybe one day I will but I have not as of yet.

JDSKIDSTEER
07-27-2008, 04:50 PM
AWJ, How many hours have you got on your machine now? How is the rubber holding up? Just wondering.

AWJ Services
07-27-2008, 05:01 PM
I have about 600 hours or so on it.The Drought killed me here.
I only put about 50 hours on it since last october.
The tracks look good and I expect 1000+ hours.
I use mine in gravel alot as well as any imaginable condition.
I will snap some pictures later.

bobcat_ron
07-27-2008, 06:06 PM
First off, that rubber on the rollers is extremely tough, almost like semi-pneumatic tires on a skid steer, but harder. If those rollers were made of a softer rubber, I wouldn't like the system very well and they would be replaced with steel rollers (Bair's aluminum rollers wouldn't even last a weekend, damn scrap metal thieves) but I understand the concept of rubber on rubber contact.

Putting 200 hours on this machine, in the worst conditions I have encountered, is a testament to how well this system works for me,it may not work for others, especially those in the first time CTL/MTL market, but because this is my second tracked machine, I knew what I was capable of doing.

I can easily justify this machine, no matter what, payments are only $740 a month and my fuel bill hardly goes over $400 a month (truck and equipment) I worked it out to 7 hours of jack hammer work in 1 month makes a monthly payment or just 12 hours of hogging soil around, as long as the machine pays for itself every month, I'm fine. The haul charges for the equipment and other haul charges (buckets and attachments for big brother) pay for the fuel for the truck. The rest comes from the other income. Even though I am late with getting paid, there is always money coming in every month from my Dad's business, he's 10%, big brother is 80% and my line of work is the left over 10%, certain months the ratios change big time, as you can see from my work pic threads, when you see a lot of big iron work, it's usually 90% or when all you see is nothing but small iron for 1 week, the ratio changes again.

I honestly think that once Cat introduces the new CTL's and starts building the smaller frame CTL's, there will be a vast majority that will still hold on to their MTL's, I am one of them. I will not give up the low ground pressure and tread pattern for something that will have more weight and need more fuel to operate. By the time I am ready to start replacing rollers or even tracks, I will be in another Cat, but that is like saying I will be moved out of the house, married to a hot blond and have a kid and a dog while living in the 'burbs. Fat chance. I'd rather see an entire undercarriage replacement program offered exclusively by Cat to buy back ASV U/C's (that they deem in good shape) and in exchange get a conventional set up, like I mentioned before, that just bolts right on, I would do it, but I would need some time to try it out.

As for the bearings, big deal, these are just common bearings you buy at a local automotive parts store, there's even a plug on the roller that you can thread a grease fitting into and pack the bearings, kinda simple really. And if there is end play, pull the dust cap off, and tighten the nut slightly and replace the nut, it's all in the parts manual and owner's manual.
It sure beats the hell out of dropping the entire track, dropping a roller out, taking it to a press and removing the bearings and buying new ones.

But I didn't post the pics to brag, nor will I defend this system to the bitter end of the universe, just some informative information. :waving:

J. Peterson Grading
07-27-2008, 06:26 PM
Hey there cry-babbies.. Aren't we all making money here? We all must be doing something right. Ctl or Mtl who cares..

J.

iron peddler
07-27-2008, 08:38 PM
ksss....we know where your alligance is with the power tan.....the key to tracked compact skid frames is knowing how to bill your customers to pay yourself and the machine.....I will not sell a tracked machine to a customer that does not understand the 80-90 per hour for a tracked unit... I am guessing that Ron had the same speech and is charging a similar amount.....just don't quote that number to your customer, just keep it in the back of your mind.....if have that mindset, any tracked skid will work out in the end and make a guy money......


buy the way...what do you guys think is a fair hourly depreciation rate on track skids? so far the industry has been all over the board regardless of make.... i would appreciate your honest opinions.:usflag:

JDSKIDSTEER
07-27-2008, 08:59 PM
ksss....we know where your alligance is with the power tan.....the key to tracked compact skid frames is knowing how to bill your customers to pay yourself and the machine.....I will not sell a tracked machine to a customer that does not understand the 80-90 per hour for a tracked unit... I am guessing that Ron had the same speech and is charging a similar amount.....just don't quote that number to your customer, just keep it in the back of your mind.....if have that mindset, any tracked skid will work out in the end and make a guy money......


buy the way...what do you guys think is a fair hourly depreciation rate on track skids? so far the industry has been all over the board regardless of make.... i would appreciate your honest opinions.:usflag:From what I saw at Richie Brothers last week, my thoughts that it is $23.00 per hour, and from what I saw the Cats sell for maybe $28.00 -$30.00 per our. Sorry Ron, that is what I saw.

bobcat_ron
07-27-2008, 09:02 PM
For any of you out there intrested in my hourly rates:

$68 for all out dirt hogging and general bucket work
$85 for brush cutting
$105 for jack hammer.

These rates have not changed since going from the T190 to the Cat, but they have increased due to the fuel costs.

Overtime rates are a six pack for the first hour, a bottle of Jack for the second hour and a hot, cute college girl for anything after my 2 over time paid hours are finished.

bobcat_ron
07-27-2008, 09:11 PM
From what I saw at Richie Brothers last week, my thoughts that it is $23.00 per hour, and from what I saw the Cats sell for maybe $28.00 -$30.00 per our. Sorry Ron, that is what I saw.


Honestly, I could give 2 sh*ts about hourly depreciation, if I am going to trade my machine off, it's going to be for another Cat, and dealers always give you what you want for your trade in when it's their own machine.

I still laugh when ever I see my T190 still up on CatUsed.com, Finning will never get rid of that POS, and even some people are telling me they gave me waaay too much on trade in, but Finning wanted the exposure, so what ever. :dizzy:

Here's the old POS in all of it's ugliness!

jefftb
07-27-2008, 09:11 PM
From what I saw at Richie Brothers last week, my thoughts that it is $23.00 per hour, and from what I saw the Cats sell for maybe $28.00 -$30.00 per our. Sorry Ron, that is what I saw.


Not sure this is the best time to accurately determine an hourly depreciation rate. Three years ago was also not the best time to do it either though. If you're really trying though, find rates from the past 4-5 years (experienced or hearsay) and then do a weighted average on them. Don't make it an equally weighted average either, give more weight or less depending on the boom-bust cycle (if you will) that we have been in over the last 5-6 years. That will allow for a better rate. From an accounting perspective its just straight line computation for most machines over a fixed operating period. That's rarely adequate for the work most do here on lawnsite.com. This ain't the mining or heavy aggregate business model here on lawnsite.

AWJ Services
07-27-2008, 09:23 PM
buy the way...what do you guys think is a fair hourly depreciation rate on track skids? so far the industry has been all over the board regardless of make.... i would appreciate your honest opinions

Before this severe decline in the economy I shopped long and hard for a TL140 in 2006 and the best price I could find for a low hour machine was only 6 or 7 k off of what I paid.
So at that time there value was holding up well.
This year with all the repo's the same machine was 10K plus off of my new price.I would assume all machines wheeled or tracked are down in resale.

If you actually take the time too figure the actual cost of a tired machine and compare it too a tracked machine and tack into account the added ability too work longer and the time saved on common jobs there is no difference.

If you are just going too haul material from point A too point B then a wheeled machine is the best choice.
If you use your machine for actual excavating then the tracked machine will always win.
Of course that is under the conditions I work in and will not always hold true nation wide.

ksss
07-27-2008, 10:21 PM
ksss....we know where your alligance is with the power tan.....the key to tracked compact skid frames is knowing how to bill your customers to pay yourself and the machine.....I will not sell a tracked machine to a customer that does not understand the 80-90 per hour for a tracked unit... I am guessing that Ron had the same speech and is charging a similar amount.....just don't quote that number to your customer, just keep it in the back of your mind.....if have that mindset, any tracked skid will work out in the end and make a guy money......


buy the way...what do you guys think is a fair hourly depreciation rate on track skids? so far the industry has been all over the board regardless of make.... i would appreciate your honest opinions.:usflag:


Certainly I have ties to CASE but honestly I don't view this issue with that in mind. This is not so much a color issue as every nonsuspended machine is basically the same regardless of color. The few machines that I have done the math on (CATs) were in the $25 range. Although I was estimating purchasing price. That is a lot of money at even 100 an hour if you can get that.

Digdeep
07-27-2008, 10:33 PM
I thought one of the big issues was the bearings? Did you check end play?

They now use metal face seals and tapered bearings just like larger dozers and the other CTLs on the market (minus the tapered bearings).

iron peddler
07-27-2008, 11:03 PM
[QUOTE=ksss;2438973]Certainly I have ties to CASE but honestly I don't view this issue with that in mind. This is not so much a color issue as every nonsuspended machine is basically the same regardless of color. The few machines that I have done the math on (CATs) were in the $25 range. Although I was estimating purchasing price. That is a lot of money at even 100 an hour if you can get that.[/QU


you have to take color into the value....tak. vs mustang....i am pushing the tak....case vs nh, i am pushing the case....color is always a consideration, color = dealer support.... i guess my thoughts are that sometimes owner/operators don't pay themselves when they purchase track machines...they seem to forget that a mtl/ctl will outwork a tire machine 2 to 1 in almost every application.

bobcat_ron
07-28-2008, 02:49 PM
I was talking to a local landscaper who I have known for many years now, they owned a Cat 267B MTL up until last year, they also knew what they were getting into, but they said the biggest problems with the larger framed Cat's with the ASV U/C on them is the rollers are too close to the out side edge of the track, their outside rollers got chewed up at 600 hours and the track lasted to 1000 hours before they got rid of it.

A buddy of theirs who owns a 247B does a lot of work on the mountain for the big fancy house builders there while working with rock and in the rocks, he is on his second set of tracks and no rollers have been replaced. He's gotten well over 1000 hours out them, and when they were ready for replacement, they were worn down flat, but they were not gouged or ripped.

Anyways, my customer had traded off his 267 for a 246 with the VTS on it, I asked him what he thought of it, he said, "Now that is the worst system we have ever used", they are not seeing an increase in track life nor a better ride, he said they just as "choppy" as the standard CTL's and because they needed a machine in the 72" width category, there just isn't enough track on the ground to keep the wear rate down.

Now they are looking at a new 257B2, they want to go back to the ASV U/C and they like how much bigger and wider the rollers are and the fact that the tracks have the cogs on the outside of the tracks, which will protect the rollers from chipping.

I told him to wait until next month, but they are very gung-ho, they need a machine with a light foot print, it has to travel over paver stones with a full pallet and not vibrate the sh*t out of everything. Go figure.

BrandonV
07-28-2008, 09:57 PM
we have a 287b and we're rough on it, we replaced our first set of tracks at 1000 hrs, but the the undercarriage/rollers were all fine. we'll probably have to change this second set of tracks out sooner because we've been in MAJOR sharp rocks here lately. but the rollers will probably last till 2000 hrs. my bobcat on the other hand had all the idlers replaced in the first 1000 hrs... so I'm very happy w/ the cat

bobcat_ron
07-28-2008, 10:29 PM
I still want to see a harder rubber, But I guess I'll just remain on the edge of my seat until Bair releases their new tracks from DRB.

Scag48
07-29-2008, 01:30 AM
ASV definately has figured out a great tread pattern on the tracks, the tracks on Cat/ASV machines are by far the most tractive, IMO. However, I do feel they should be of much higher density rubber so they last longer and can withstand more abuse. C'mon Cat, let's get this done.

Digdeep
07-29-2008, 09:09 AM
I still want to see a harder rubber, But I guess I'll just remain on the edge of my seat until Bair releases their new tracks from DRB.

My dealer told me last year that another company (I think it was Solideal) showed an aftermarket track at a show and ASV kindly let them know through legal channels that they were infringing on multiple patents that ASV has on the track's design. I haven't seen Solideal trying to sell an ASV track so they must have looked into it and figured that it wasn't worth the legal hassle. I'm curious to know if DRB will end up in the same boat or has found a way around the patents.

bobcat_ron
07-29-2008, 08:51 PM
DRB's is a much longer gap between track treads, and they are twice as wide, but the tracks look thicker.

Canon Landscaping
07-29-2008, 11:14 PM
Hey Doug do they make wider tracks for the 322 now?
We will need a set by the first of the year.

JDSKIDSTEER
07-30-2008, 05:14 AM
Hey Doug do they make wider tracks for the 322 now?
We will need a set by the first of the year.Yes, I have been selling Solid Deal wide tracks. The track pattern is similar to ASV/Cat and does not beat the machine up as bad. I like them.

Junior M
07-30-2008, 08:35 AM
not to change the subject but bobcat ron why did you buy a t190 if it is such a horrible machine? i cant believe you not goin to look at other machines before buying one!

bobcat_ron
07-30-2008, 11:08 AM
not to change the subject but bobcat ron why did you buy a t190 if it is such a horrible machine? i cant believe you not goin to look at other machines before buying one!

Uhhhh, ok, now I need to re-live my life again...............


Picture this, you are 23 years old, not married, no credit history, not even in business for 6 months and not a whole lot of equipment dealerships know your face, unless you show up with your Dad, then they all recognize you.
Now go into a big dealership like Cat or Takeuchi and ask for a demo on their smallest CTL (being 2003, 57hp and 66"x 130" of size is the smallest) and then tell them you want to trade in your 753 and you want at least the down payment of the $57,000 new machine to be the trade in value ($14,000) and all you want to do is start making monthly payments of $1000 a month with low interest.

Good Luck, Buck.

My Bobcat dealer was the only who I knew was going to allow that, all the other dealers wouldn't have shown me an ounce of respect, granted, times have changed and dealers know that the little guys are big in slow times.

But I was fooled into thinking that my T190 would be problematic unlike my 753 with I had the same problems with as with the T190, but I was wrong and my dealership was wrong, and they never apologized for it and not even a phone call from Bobcat HQ saying "we are sorry about that T190 being such a POS, we'll let you have 50% off your next Bobcat attachment just because you were such a nice guy for bending over so far for us". :cry:

My Cat is a keeper and I will remain a Cat skid steer fan for a very long time until my eventual early death or I get out of the business entirely.

Junior M
07-30-2008, 11:29 AM
Uhhhh, ok, now I need to re-live my life again...............


Picture this, you are 23 years old, not married, no credit history, not even in business for 6 months and not a whole lot of equipment dealerships know your face, unless you show up with your Dad, then they all recognize you.
Now go into a big dealership like Cat or Takeuchi and ask for a demo on their smallest CTL (being 2003, 57hp and 66"x 130" of size is the smallest) and then tell them you want to trade in your 753 and you want at least the down payment of the $57,000 new machine to be the trade in value ($14,000) and all you want to do is start making monthly payments of $1000 a month with low interest.

Good Luck, Buck.

My Bobcat dealer was the only who I knew was going to allow that, all the other dealers wouldn't have shown me an ounce of respect, granted, times have changed and dealers know that the little guys are big in slow times.

But I was fooled into thinking that my T190 would be problematic unlike my 753 with I had the same problems with as with the T190, but I was wrong and my dealership was wrong, and they never apologized for it and not even a phone call from Bobcat HQ saying "we are sorry about that T190 being such a POS, we'll let you have 50% off your next Bobcat attachment just because you were such a nice guy for bending over so far for us". :cry:

My Cat is a keeper and I will remain a Cat skid steer fan for a very long time until my eventual early death or I get out of the business entirely.
ooooooooooo that explains ALOT!! but i got one more question.... why did you go with bobcat in the first place? i am just curious......

bobcat_ron
07-30-2008, 11:36 AM
ooooooooooo that explains ALOT!! but i got one more question.... why did you go with bobcat in the first place? i am just curious......

Re-read what I posted. Carefully re-read it and think.

Junior M
07-30-2008, 11:40 AM
Re-read what I posted. Carefully re-read it and think.
that is not quite what i meant....... what i meant was why did you go with bobcat from the begining for? like why did you choose to go with the bobcat brand when you bought the 753?

bobcat_ron
07-30-2008, 03:43 PM
that is not quite what i meant....... what i meant was why did you go with bobcat from the begining for? like why did you choose to go with the bobcat brand when you bought the 753?

Dad has done business with the dealer since 1984, when he bought his second 400 series skid steer out of 3 he's had over the years, 1989 he bought the now infamous slug aka the 943, and even he's had the same heat and vibration related problems I've had with my previous Bobcats.
In 1992 he bought a Mustang 930A (with the T bar!!) and he was shunned by the Bobcat dealer, in 1996 he bought the 753 and got back in their good book again, I took over the Bobcat in 2003.
We have tried all the major brands between '92-2002, even a Cat 216 in '99 (not sure when they hit the yards of Cat dealers) I liked them, but pilot controls were new to me, so we both agreed to stay away (I really regret that choice!!) and even a Takeuchi TL126, I liked that one, but again, the pilots were scary.

crab
07-30-2008, 06:51 PM
Ron i would like you to post a picture of one of you're Lady's(mom not included )every time i come hereyouy have the most recent post,whats the deal!:laugh:

bobcat_ron
07-30-2008, 08:10 PM
Ron i would like you to post a picture of one of you're Lady's(mom not included )every time i come hereyouy have the most recent post,whats the deal!:laugh:


I have lots of free time, so I am always here, I never leave.

I like to think of most internet forum threads as a "last post wins" kind of deal. :laugh:

Here's my sexy woman:

kreft
07-30-2008, 08:18 PM
Ron, you have to have one hell of a personality.!

bobcat_ron
07-30-2008, 08:19 PM
Ron, you have to have one hell of a personality.!

Correction:

"personalities" http://deephousepage.com/smilies/jackson.gif

kreft
07-30-2008, 08:26 PM
Can you name them?

bobcat_ron
07-30-2008, 08:28 PM
There's Jon, Don, Bon, Kahn, Lon and Yawn.

But they all have their own split personalities as well, and they are always on conference call.

kreft
07-30-2008, 08:32 PM
sounds complicated...

bobcat_ron
07-30-2008, 08:34 PM
It is, especially since all their personalities are German and Russian.

Junior M
07-30-2008, 08:59 PM
wow that is all i have to say....

DUSTYCEDAR
07-30-2008, 09:13 PM
i like the cat

kreft
07-30-2008, 09:15 PM
How old are you ron? 26?

ksss
07-30-2008, 09:21 PM
I have lots of free time, so I am always here, I never leave.

I like to think of most internet forum threads as a "last post wins" kind of deal. :laugh:

Here's my sexy woman:


Ahh. now I understand the request for an Asian escort when you come to Idaho. Nice looking girl, what did that set you back?:drinkup:

stuvecorp
07-30-2008, 09:51 PM
It is, especially since all their personalities are German and Russian.

Why don't you harness that and take over the world?

Junior M
07-30-2008, 09:52 PM
Why don't you harness that and take over the world?
holy crap dont give him that idea!! if he controls the world we would all be driving a ford, running cat equipment and have a mail order wife like his!!!! hahah

JDSKIDSTEER
07-30-2008, 09:54 PM
Ron is a fun guy or bunch of guys to have around.:dizzy:

bobcat_ron
07-31-2008, 10:24 AM
How old are you ron? 26?

I am 30 actually, I'm middle aged according to my life span expectancy, that explains why I have to pull over in the passing lane while walking up the stairs just to let the cat go by, or when I'm taking a pee, it's kinda like going to the fire works, at first I stand around waiting for something to happen, and then when it starts, there's a bunch of "oooh's" and "aaaahhhh's", then I start wondering when it's going to stop. :dizzy:

bobcat_ron
07-31-2008, 10:25 AM
Nice looking girl, what did that set you back?:drinkup:

2 heifers and a dozen chickens.

CAT powered
07-31-2008, 01:08 PM
Wow this has gotten a bit off-topic.

Hey, JLM, other than the mail-order bride part that sounds like a perfect world.

Junior M
07-31-2008, 01:12 PM
Wow this has gotten a bit off-topic.

Hey, JLM, other than the mail-order bride part that sounds like a perfect world.
hmmmmmmm yeah i think so... not quite set on the ford and cat mtl idea but i could deal with it!!!

but if he is goin to rule the world he has to keep me out of school!! that is the only thing i ask!!!